Cyclist on N4 this evening

BH2008

Not usually my sort of thing to post, but driving along the N4 (fast, single lane section with poor visibility) this evening eastwards on the way into Longford...cyclist in full Longford Cycling club in the hard shoulder was being passed by a tractor and trailer (with 4 cars stacked up behind waiting for an opportunity to pass) as the tractor and trailer passed the cyclist (who was definitely old enough to have more sense) decided to move right out between the four cars and the rear of the trailer and take up a position drafting on the back right hand side of the trailer with hardly a glance behind, making it all the more difficult for all the other cars to pass...genuinely took a sharp intake of breath when I saw what he did...thought there was going to be an accident...one of the most idiotic moves I have seen...just posting on the chance that said cyclist might see this and realise how idiotic he was...or a club mate of his might see this and have a quiet word in his ear...specialized helmet...

magicbastarder

if the cyclist stayed in lane, and maintained pace with the tractor, i don't see how it could have made the overtake more difficult for the motorists. what stretch was it? i guess you mean on the newtownforbes side of longford?

i'm certainly not excusing such an obvious change in road postion, without a clear check, lest that not be clear.

07Lapierre

Contact Longford cycling club directly.

I see motorists do silly things every day. I wouldn’t go onto the motors forum in the hope the driver sees it. I can imagine the response I’d get.

BH2008

magicbastarder wrote: »

if the cyclist stayed in lane, and maintained pace with the tractor, i don't see how it could have made the overtake more difficult for the motorists. what stretch was it? i guess you mean on the newtownforbes side of longford?

i'm certainly not excusing such an obvious change in road postion, without a clear check, lest that not be clear.

Cyclist was in hard shoulder and swung out into lane at right hand side of trailer (nearest white line)

BH2008

07Lapierre wrote: »

Contact Longford cycling club directly.

I see motorists do silly things every day. I wouldn’t go onto the motors forum in the hope the driver sees it. I can imagine the response I’d get.

Not that bothered, just trying to give a fellow cyclist a bit of perspective. If Mods want to take down thread/post fire ahead. Not planning to post anymore on this, more just a heads up to whoever.

07Lapierre

BH2008 wrote: »

Not that bothered, just trying to give a fellow cyclist a bit of perspective. If Mods want to take down thread/post fire ahead. Not planning to post anymore on this, more just a heads up to whoever.

Certainly sounds like a bad move by the cyclist, but Speaking of perspective.... were you in the 5th car behind the tractor? Were you viewing this event from a position where it’s difficult to gauge the distance between the trailer and the 1st car?

Wishbone Ash

BH2008 wrote: »

... was being passed by a tractor and trailer (with 4 cars stacked up behind ...

I'm disappointed now. I wanted to hear more about this tractor drawing a trailer with cars piled four high on it.

buffalo

BH2008 wrote: »

Not that bothered, just trying to give a fellow cyclist a bit of perspective. If Mods want to take down thread/post fire ahead. Not planning to post anymore on this, more just a heads up to whoever.

You're only bothered enough to post on a forum, but you're not bothered enough to send an email... it's a very precise amount of bother, isn't it?

Normally people are not that bothered (shrug), or extremely bothered (ring Trafficwatch/Liveline).

Lumen

I really don't see the problem.

maestroamado

BH2008 wrote: »

Not usually my sort of thing to post, but driving along the N4 (fast, single lane section with poor visibility) this evening eastwards on the way into Longford...cyclist in full Longford Cycling club in the hard shoulder was being passed by a tractor and trailer (with 4 cars stacked up behind waiting for an opportunity to pass) as the tractor and trailer passed the cyclist (who was definitely old enough to have more sense) decided to move right out between the four cars and the rear of the trailer and take up a position drafting on the back right hand side of the trailer with hardly a glance behind, making it all the more difficult for all the other cars to pass...genuinely took a sharp intake of breath when I saw what he did...thought there was going to be an accident...one of the most idiotic moves I have seen...just posting on the chance that said cyclist might see this and realise how idiotic he was...or a club mate of his might see this and have a quiet word in his ear...specialized helmet...

Do you have to get permission for this as i thought we were in lockdown.
I cycle myself but usually alone or with one or two others as i believe these groups dangerous and there has being a few incidents.
I have also cycled and drove considerably and cyclists are much more aware that there is vehicles on the road, what goes on here would not be tolerated. I have seen groups of cyclists here and the group take up as much room as several cars, if a car comes up behind them can be behind for several km.
Quire alott of our rur roads were built for bicycles and are only 10/12 ft wide and they now have to share that space with big volumes of cars, large articulated trucks and tractors.
Something needs to be done as there is not enough space for all of what is using same.I also thing if a group is over say 4/6 it should be an organized event


I think bicycles and tractors should be given designated times for road use as they are both dangerous and disrupt flow of traffic.
Also bicycles pay no road tax and tractors pay a lesser fee as they are land principally vehicles, there was a time in the past when tractors were not allowed carry these big machines on their trailers.
Tractors are allowed on motorways here but not in NI.
Its the only country that i seen a tractor on motorway, we also have these sulkys.
As i said i am a cyclists myself but there need serious mature debate about this to make the road safe for all.
On a related note we are in lockdown, maybe Longford Cycling club may want to comment as to why this group were allowed out, if there was an accident i doubt if any of these people covered with insuracce.

magicbastarder

maestroamado wrote: »

I think bicycles and tractors should be given designated times for road use as they are both dangerous and disrupt flow of traffic.

[mod hat on]hello and welcome to the cycling forum.
i suggest you read the charter for the forum, specifically the points re this forum being for cyclists to discuss cycling and it not being a place for people to have a pop at cyclists. please temper your posting based on the points in the charter.

07Lapierre

Lumen wrote: »

I really don't see the problem.

With what? Drafting behind tractors or posting on boards about it?

Drafting is an "art" I'm still trying to master! Tractors are ok, but double decker buses? No...they are a different story! You really need your wits about you drafting a bus!

Lumen

07Lapierre wrote: »

With what? Drafting behind tractors or posting on boards about it?

Drafting is an "art" I'm still trying to master! Tractors are ok, but double decker buses? No...they are a different story! You really need your wits about you drafting a bus!

I bought a specific drafting bike a few years back. Disc brakes to eliminate the 2m of water clearance when drafting buses in the wet.

Tractors also not an issue but cars is antisocial as it can stress the drivers out having someone pinned to their bumper. Or through the back window.

CramCycle

maestroamado wrote: »

It is exactly related. OP was talking about cyclists. tractor and Longford Cycling club and i mentioned all three, i just added in the lockdown.
If you want to refute any of it you are welcome to do so.
I am just saying what i see on an ongoing basis.
If you not capable of having a decent discussion get "on yer bike"

MOD VOICE: You didn't read the post as the description of what you think happened and what was mentioned in the OP are not even closely related. Do not post in this thread again, any questions, via PM only.

magicbastarder

maestroamado - do not post in this thread again.

other posts reacting to the above have been deleted.

CramCycle

At the OP, here is the contact page for LCRC: http://www.lcrc.ie/contact_lcrc.html I suggest you copy your post and paste it in there to save yourself some hassle. Also, are you sure it was Longford CRC kit and not Lucan, they are very similar and it is quite annoying TBH. Maybe send it in to both clubs to be sure.

07Lapierre

Lumen wrote: »

I bought a specific drafting bike a few years back. Disc brakes to eliminate the 2m of water clearance when drafting buses in the wet.

Tractors also not an issue but cars is antisocial as it can stress the drivers out having someone pinned to their bumper. Or through the back window.

I've only drafted behind a car once. I was dropped during a race. "A friend" was driving an Estate car offered to help me regain contact with the group further up the road. That was fun!

hans aus dtschl

"Making it more difficult for cars to pass" seems to be a bit of a dog whistle on here.

I'm not sure what "hardly a glance behind" means. Does it mean the cyclist DID in fact look behind, then moved out to behind the tractor?

It's very hard to picture what exactly was unsafe from the brief description given. Maybe also post in the motors forum on the off chance that the other motorists involved might see it and add context? Because at the moment it reads a little like "tractor overtook bike, and the bike took position behind tractor instead of behind the cars".

magicbastarder

CramCycle wrote: »

Also, are you sure it was Longford CRC kit and not Lucan, they are very similar and it is quite annoying TBH.

to be fair, the OP mentioned it was west of longford.

CramCycle

magicbastarder wrote: »

to be fair, the OP mentioned it was west of longford.

Im north of Longford and wear a Tiernans kit, it was more a rant that I don't like the fact that their kits are so alike and they have LCRC as their initials in both kits. I rarely get the chance to rant about this. Thankfully LCRC have doubled down on the Flouro Yellow this year, I mean, not thankfully for their riders but for those of us who seem to be annoyed about the most unimportant things, like myself.

CramCycle

I've drafted behind tractors, buses and cars. Buses are my preference, you can let a bit of distance build up to allow for braking. Tractors are a bit slow but keep you trucking along nicely. Cars take alot more skill, you have to tuck in close and only behind ones you trust, if they brake your done for. I've also gotten a tow from an ambulance many moons ago before people were concerned about safety, Ambulances are great for drafting.

Cyclists: Easy to catch, give a slight advantage in some situations, risky as no warning of brakes, but speed is never much higher than you can achieve yourself. Always leave enough room to swing out if they grab a handful of brakes. Always let them know you are there.

Tractors: Nice steady state, some can be faster and some slower but they tend to be consistent with speed. You tend to get little warning of turning or stopping on most of them though. Stay in the centre so you can drop back a little to give you room to grab your brakes. Don't let them kow you are there, they don't need to be distracted and some will try and turn around for a chat, which is unnerving.

Buses: Great for a draft, tend to have good indicators and brake lights. Also tend to have stops that you can prejudge and drop off the back a bit before for safety. Acceleration is good but not to difficult to hang onto if you can burn a match or two. If you do hit them, they will never know or care, which is some light relief. Draft potential is enormous so if they get trucking, you can easily tip 80kmph sitting a few m off the back.

Cars: Acceleration is tough, lights rarely work as they are meant too, you need to be close to get the best effect. If they brake suddenly, you can easily go through the window at which point they will know you are there, only recommended at either slow speeds or if you know the driver and they have indicated for you to do so.

Motorbikes: Great fun, easy to dodge if they have to brake, impossible to hold if they have a good acceleration, better to roll into them at a lights as you carry speed and they are just taking off.

magicbastarder

CramCycle wrote: »

Tractors: Nice steady state, some can be faster and some slower but they tend to be consistent with speed. You tend to get little warning of turning or stopping on most of them though. Stay in the centre so you can drop back a little to give you room to grab your brakes. Don't let them kow you are there, they don't need to be distracted and some will try and turn around for a chat, which is unnerving.

this is worth noting - that tractors are far more likely to turn into a field at an entrance you might not expect, than any other traffic. if you're able to maintain pace with one, the middle of the lane or the primary position is the sensible one. you don't want to be caught up the inside of a tractor.

whisky_galore

maestroamado wrote: »

I think bicycles and tractors should be given designated times for road use as they are both dangerous and disrupt flow of traffic.

This is a laugh, most of the farm work tractors do is time sensitive and weather dependent. Should they wait until the designated time when it's p*ssing rain?

magicbastarder

please don't respond to maestroamado - (s)he has been instucted not to post in the thread, so cannot answer.

07Lapierre

magicbastarder wrote: »

this is worth noting - that tractors are far more likely to turn into a field at an entrance you might not expect, than any other traffic. if you're able to maintain pace with one, the middle of the lane or the primary position is the sensible one. you don't want to be caught up the inside of a tractor.

Toptip: Listen to the engine. As soon as the driver takes his foot off the gas, the engine revs drop...that's your Q to apply brakes and expect the tractor to slow and/or turn.

Also...depending on how worn your brakes are, apply the brakes just enough so the pads are at,but not rubbing the rims. Last thing you want is delayed braking!

hans aus dtschl

magicbastarder wrote: »

this is worth noting - that tractors are far more likely to turn into a field at an entrance you might not expect, than any other traffic. if you're able to maintain pace with one, the middle of the lane or the primary position is the sensible one. you don't want to be caught up the inside of a tractor.

I am very much aware of not wanting to be on the left of a tractor, having had them "close in" on me a few times before they'd fully overtaken. That big back wheel seems like it could go right over you with barely a bump for the driver to notice. An empty trailer is usually bumping along so much they wouldn't notice that going over you either. You definitely want to be in the middle behind: able to get by on the right if needed.

I'd echo the fact that being behind cars is more stressful than tractors. No brake lights, sharp braking, reasonably fast acceleration: erratic pace changes basically. It can play havoc with your legs and your nerves. I'd definitely rather be behind a tractor.

And some tractors stay on your wheel for ages without the power to get past, so I know I've dropped back behind them. Force them to take turns rather than sitting on all the time!

From the other side, I've had one local farmer race me several times on my training loop. He pushes the engine to the limit to catch me and then stay away, but until he sees me, he just drives along smoothly. I never get so much as an unfriendly beep or too little room on the overtake, so he seems to be doing it for his own entertainment/amusement rather than out of aggression. It's a great training aid to try and stay away from him to be honest.

Also,no mention of cranes yet? Those babies tick along at around 40kmh with no real pace changes worth speaking of. I've stayed 100m ahead of one for around 10km. Best training ever.

hans aus dtschl

07Lapierre wrote: »

Toptip: Listen to the engine. As soon as the driver takes his foot off the gas, the engine revs drop...that's your Q to apply brakes and expect the tractor to slow and/or turn.

Yep you usually know what's going on with a tractor.
Cars are totally unpredictable by comparison.
People sometimes take their eye off the road to look at you too, which causes all sorts of veering and sharp braking.

07Lapierre

CramCycle wrote: »

Buses: Great for a draft, tend to have good indicators and brake lights. Also tend to have stops that you can prejudge and drop off the back a bit before for safety. Acceleration is good but not to difficult to hang onto if you can burn a match or two. If you do hit them, they will never know or care, which is some light relief. Draft potential is enormous so if they get trucking, you can easily tip 80kmph sitting a few m off the back.

When i was in college, i used to draft the buses going up the Malahide road from Fairview towards Artane. I remember one time i was behind a bus that was full of passengers. It didn't stop at any bus stops and all the traffic lights we came across were Green. Not sure what speed we were doing but its a long drag from Fairview up to Artane and I got there in no time!

At one point i was concerned that if i slowed down, the buffeting from the wind as i dropped out of the "Pocket" would have blown me off the bike, so i burned quite a few matches trying to keep up! It didn't stop at any bus stops because it was a Private Bus! I got a good workout that day!

beachhead

Maybe I am missing something here.But I had assumed that bicycles were banned from motorways in the Republic of Ireland.You can mention permits from the Gardai for charity events.Please enlighten me about the law.

CramCycle

beachhead wrote: »

Maybe I am missing something here.But I had assumed that bicycles were banned from motorways in the Republic of Ireland.You can mention permits from the Gardai for charity events.Please enlighten me about the law.

N4 is not a motor way as indicated by the N designation, the M4 is hence the M designation.

beachhead

Ye,you're right.Wasn't paying attention to the M designation.But cyclists have been seen on the motorways before this crisis.Also,fruit pickers.......

CramCycle

beachhead wrote: »

Ye,you're right.Wasn't paying attention to the M designation.But cyclists have been seen on the motorways before this crisis.Also,fruit pickers.......

I have cycled the old N4 and the current N4. It is an awful road to cycle, despite the width of the hard shoulder, it is not uncommon to have cars tipping well north of 120kmph on the approach to longford, with some not far off 180 based on the distance covered.

fat bloke

CramCycle wrote: »

I have cycled the old N4 and the current N4. It is an awful road to cycle, despite the width of the hard shoulder, it is not uncommon to have cars tipping well north of 120kmph on the approach to longford, with some not far off 180 based on the distance covered.

I'd understand 180 km/hr for traffic leaving Longford, but approaching ???

:pac:

Rodin

Do you think he was within 5k of home?

AndrewJRenko

Rodin wrote: »

Do you think he was within 5k of home?

Dunno, the driver has stopped posting on the thread so we'll probably never know.

CramCycle

fat bloke wrote: »

I'd understand 180 km/hr for traffic leaving Longford, but approaching ???

:pac:

Quicker to get through it :pac:

Rodin wrote: »

Do you think he was within 5k of home?

Yes, Im pretty sure I know who it is

Daroxtar

Smaller cattle trucks are great for drafting. They don't have the raw power of tractors to maintain speed on hills, bigger frontal area so huge draft area behind them, mostly chugging along in the 50-60 kph range so if you get in behind one you're sorted.

MojoMaker

Have a soft spot for a draft from An Post vans myself. Tip your hat (helmet) to the driver in advance and jump on - bliss!

eeeee

Love a good draft.
Buses are the best, you can see the lights and them indicating and can predict their stops.
I don't do cars because they're too unpredictable.
Really loud little moped things are good too, albeit unpredictable. The noise of them gets me eventually. The rider has to sit up really straight, it's almost like a derney if you get a good one.
I have never drafted a tractor, and as a farmer its' a personal shame that I haven't. Some day...

I did get caught going up a horrible drag right behind a bin lorry that was doing the exact same speed as me once at the end of a spin. That was grim.

Lumen

Rodin wrote: »

Do you think he was within 5k of home?

My 2km-limited loop included a section of N road, so it's not impossible.

Now I have 5km, LUXURY!!!!

Don't really like crossing junctions on N roads but since I was coming off at the first one it was safe enough.

NamelessPhil

I got a decent draft once on a 400km audax behind a tractor, it was fabulous for 4km or so!

I was 300km into a 600 once when I encountered a battered old tractor stuck together with baling twine and hope on the ****ty road into Ballynahown. I was fecked anyway and the farmer's dog (a black and white collie, obviously) was going nuts on the seat beside his flat-capped master. Unfortunately the tractor was going the same pace as I was, so no drafting, just me choking on diesel fumes and my presence sending the dog crazy for a few km. I don't know who was happier, me or the dog when the tractor finally turned off the route.

swarlb

Many moons ago, before the N7 (and long before the M7) was a dual carriage way (apart from a small section between Rathcoole and Naas). Coming from Inchicore I'd keep an eye out for trucks heading towards Naas, and try to keep up as they, some then were very slow to take off, and by the time they got rolling I could easily slip in behind, 53/13 was the highest I'd use at the time, and it was a pure thrill to tuck in hoping we'd get the lights green as there were so many on the roads at the time. Not once did I ever consider the danger, or the traffic, each for their own as they say.
I can only imagine what the response would have been if someone had 'reported' me to my club.....
It certainly wouldn't have been a negative one !

TGD

Lumen wrote: »

I bought a specific drafting bike a few years back. Disc brakes to eliminate the 2m of water clearance when drafting buses in the wet.

Tractors also not an issue but cars is antisocial as it can stress the drivers out having someone pinned to their bumper. Or through the back window.

This is bike specifically for drafting - see here for more details

TGD

You are not really a proper drafter until you leave some tyre rubber on the rear of the vehicle. This is also a good way to brake - as the vehicle slows down (e.g. a bus), your bike will slow accordingly just from the friction. (I have done the first bit - the driver was an old cyclist and knew how to give a tow - but I chickened out on the second bit)

Thelonious Monk

I saw a guy in Malta turn around on a motorway and go back up the slip road once on a motorbike

cletus

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I saw a guy in Malta turn around on a motorway and go back up the slip road once on a motorbike

That's nothing. I was in a car with a mate one time, and he reversed up a slip road just outside Naas, when he realised he had taken the wrong one

eeeee

TGD wrote: »

This is bike specifically for drafting - see here for more details

Stayer bikes are class, I've seen them and the special derney's in the flesh. They duct tape the tubulars onto the rims ont he outside so they don't roll off if they flat. The smell of petrol! The races are so long the velodrome still stank of petrol when we went in the next day. I love derney smell. The smell of Saturday mornings on track!
The derney's are cool too. They have a rolling bar on the back so when the front wheel touches it doesn't come to a full stop. They do up to 100kph! In a velodrome with a heap of other derney stayer combos. It's crazy. The derney drivers are class too, all former riders.

Wishbone Ash

07Lapierre wrote: »

Toptip: Listen to the engine. As soon as the driver takes his foot off the gas, the engine revs drop...that's your Q to apply brakes and expect the tractor to slow and/or turn....

Even more distinctive in older tractors that just had a hand throttle. The throttle wasn't spring loaded so had to be pushed back up before braking giving a distinctive 'groan' from the engine.

My Top Tip: Make sure the driver knows you are there. It depends on the load/implement but if you are hidden, move out to the right occasionally so that he can see that you're still there and are OK. Much more likely to co-operate that way and use his indicators. It can be disconcerting driving a tractor and not knowing where the cyclist has gone.

Avoid getting in behind large square balers especially if they have just baled straw. You'll be choked with dust. Hay is not as bad.

magicbastarder

my wife can tell the difference between a hay bale and a straw bale with barely a glance. it's a skill i've only learned in the last few years.

Large bottle small glass

magicbastarder wrote: »

my wife can tell the difference between a hay bale and a straw bale with barely a glance. it's a skill i've only learned in the last few years.

Knots down and out baby!

eeeee

magicbastarder wrote: »

my wife can tell the difference between a hay bale and a straw bale with barely a glance. it's a skill i've only learned in the last few years.

They look completely different!
Although if you're not used to looking at them they're just big off yellow rectangles I suppose.