Off Topic Thread 5.0

Dave_The_Sheep

Let's see if this helps wind down the 'dispute' between the EU and AZ a little.

Bazzo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Looks like J&J won't be as much of a game changer as hoped - albeit it's still going to curb the severity of the virus a good deal.

Why not? It's not far off being as effective as the Oxford vaccine and single dose

swiwi_

Buer wrote: »

I think it's going to be a massive game changer particularly for less accessible areas of the world where the two dose approach is going to be a logistical nightmare.

Sounds perfect for Switzerland so.

Dave_The_Sheep

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Let's see if this helps wind down the 'dispute' between the EU and AZ a little.

I guess not.

bilston

Grab your popcorn folks this will get messy.

Dublin can't have agreed to this surely?

Podge_irl

bilston wrote: »

Grab your popcorn folks this will get messy.

Dublin can't have agreed to this surely?

Apparently Dublin wasn't informed. This is a massive misstep and I'd say everyone in the Irish govt is raging.

I think it will get messy based on reporting rather than facts.

Italy, France, Germany were all well along in their negotiations with AZ in relation to obtaining vaccines and agreed to adopt an EU wide approach so that smaller EU members wouldn't be left behind.

This is the migrant crisis all over again. Europe adopted a collective approach to limit pressure on southern EU states and it was what pushed the UK over the edge into leaving the EU (despite the migrant crisis having it's origins in the UK / US invasion of Iraq ironically). Now the EU will be attacked for taking a collective approach to vaccines when the UK has opted to look after entirely it's own interests.

Out of interest - how come EU manufactured vaccine is currently going to the NI? UK production hasn't been interrupted and they've already received a substantial delivery of EU manufactured vaccine?

The level of seething misinformation and propaganda online at the moment is highly concerning. This is how brexit gets really ugly and we end up with the troubles back.

bilston

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it will get messy based on reporting rather than facts.

Italy, France, Germany were all well along in their negotiations with AZ in relation to obtaining vaccines and agreed to adopt an EU wide approach so that smaller EU members wouldn't be left behind.

This is the migrant crisis all over again. Europe adopted a collective approach to limit pressure on southern EU states and it was what pushed the UK over the edge into leaving the EU (despite the migrant crisis having it's origins in the UK / US invasion of Iraq ironically). Now the EU will be attacked for taking a collective approach to vaccines when the UK has opted to look after entirely it's own interests.

Out of interest - how come EU manufactured vaccine is currently going to the NI? UK production hasn't been interrupted and they've already received a substantial delivery of EU manufactured vaccine?

The level of seething misinformation and propaganda online at the moment is highly concerning. This is how brexit gets really ugly and we end up with the troubles back.

Who are the EU arguing with here? AZ or the UK? I understand they are annoyed with AZ for failing to deliver on their contract. But what have the UK done wrong? Genuinely asking and not a leading question.

bilston

I believe the first batches of Pfizer vaccine that came into NI in December came from GB and was shipped into Dublin and then taken up North. That was obviously pre UK/EU trade deal.

bilston

bilston wrote: »

Who are the EU arguing with here? AZ or the UK? I understand they are annoyed with AZ for failing to deliver on their contract. But have the UK done wrong? Genuinely asking and not a leading question.

My understanding is that AZ are saying they can't legally send vaccine from UK > EU due to a clause in their contract with the UK around delivery.

EU are saying, no, we also have a clause around delivery - we've sent vaccine EU > UK, so sort us out here so we are at worst sharing the pain.

AZ seem to be concerned there are legal consequences but the UK can obviously wave these and should having received vaccine from the EU.

They appear to be refusing to do this and the media in the UK is turning it into a massive 'EU failed on vaccines now want to steal ours' which is bollox. EU adopted two different approaches to the UK.

Firstly they wanted to complete regulatory approval before beginning vaccination. Secondly they didn't want just wealthy member states buying up doses so took an EU wide approach.

Ultimately - the right thing to do here is for AZ to send a similar amount of vaccine back to the EU to cover the shortfall. They seem to think they need UK Gov approval to do this.

Now the EU is looking to ensure (because they no longer trust AZ) that vaccine isn't ported EU - IRL - NI - UK, hence they are adding checks. This isn't a border, but again - it's being turned by the UK media into another piece of anti EU propaganda.

bilston

Deleted User wrote: »

My understanding is that AZ are saying they can't legally send vaccine from UK > EU due to a clause in their contract with the UK around delivery.

EU are saying, no, we also have a clause around delivery - we've sent vaccine EU > UK, so sort us out here so we are at worst sharing the pain.

AZ seem to be concerned there are legal consequences but the UK can obviously wave these and should having received vaccine from the EU.

They appear to be refusing to do this and the media in the UK is turning it into a massive 'EU failed on vaccines now want to steal ours' which is bollox. EU adopted two different approaches to the UK.

Firstly they wanted to complete regulatory approval before beginning vaccination. Secondly they didn't want just wealthy member states buying up doses so took an EU wide approach.

Ultimately - the right thing to do here is for AZ to send a similar amount of vaccine back to the EU to cover the shortfall. They seem to think they need UK Gov approval to do this.

Now the EU is looking to ensure (because they no longer trust AZ) that vaccine isn't ported EU - IRL - NI - UK, hence they are adding checks. This isn't a border, but again - it's being turned by the UK media into another piece of anti EU propaganda.

Interesting Venjur and good to have it explained.

The EU's approach to vaccines hasn't been a huge success so far.

This seems a little desperate on their part tonight, but the reports suggest that BJ has no interest in an escalation of the dispute, so perhaps it will get the results the EU want, but I wonder if there were better ways of going about it.

bilston

bilston wrote: »

Interesting Venjur and good to have it explained.

The EU's approach to vaccines hasn't been a huge success so far.

This seems a little desperate on their part tonight, but the reports suggest that BJ has no interest in an escalation of the dispute, so perhaps it will get the results the EU want, but I wonder if there were better ways of going about it.

I think it's too early to call any vaccination programmes a success. It's going to take a long time and it will get harder the more reliance on voluntary vaccination goes on. I think it's more likely that over time things will level out across the developed world at least as new streams come online.

In terms of whether this is desperate - I would suggest that this is how the EU deals with third countries (non members). I think it's more tetchy given the UK just rejected full embassy status in a somewhat unique rebuke of the bloc.

I honestly think deal ratification could come under jeopardy if there is escalation. The UK being out of the EU appears to mean the gloves are now off from the EU's side in terms of how they engage.

Hopefully this doesn't turn into a major issue, no one needs that tbh.

Neil3030

A positive appraisal of the JnJ vaccine from a medical researcher who contributes to the NYT:

https://mobile.twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1355627160136871936

In the entire sample of 43k, there were a total of 60 hospitalizations/deaths.

0 were in the vaccine group.

Paul Smeenus

Deleted User wrote: »

My understanding is that AZ are saying they can't legally send vaccine from UK > EU due to a clause in their contract with the UK around delivery.

EU are saying, no, we also have a clause around delivery - we've sent vaccine EU > UK, so sort us out here so we are at worst sharing the pain.

AZ seem to be concerned there are legal consequences but the UK can obviously wave these and should having received vaccine from the EU.

They appear to be refusing to do this and the media in the UK is turning it into a massive 'EU failed on vaccines now want to steal ours' which is bollox. EU adopted two different approaches to the UK.

Firstly they wanted to complete regulatory approval before beginning vaccination. Secondly they didn't want just wealthy member states buying up doses so took an EU wide approach.

Ultimately - the right thing to do here is for AZ to send a similar amount of vaccine back to the EU to cover the shortfall. They seem to think they need UK Gov approval to do this.

Now the EU is looking to ensure (because they no longer trust AZ) that vaccine isn't ported EU - IRL - NI - UK, hence they are adding checks. This isn't a border, but again - it's being turned by the UK media into another piece of anti EU propaganda.

You might want to do a wee fact check there. This is complicated and tense enough without inaccuracy.

"Gallina, shaken by the move, dived into the customs records to find evidence that AstraZeneca had shipped EU-produced doses to the UK – but without success."

This, from the profoundly pro-EU Guardian, is as clear an outline as I've seen.

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/29/we-had-to-go-it-alone-how-the-uk-got-ahead-in-the-covid-vaccine-race?

Paul Smeenus

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

You might want to do a wee fact check there. This is complicated and tense enough without inaccuracy.

"Gallina, shaken by the move, dived into the customs records to find evidence that AstraZeneca had shipped EU-produced doses to the UK – but without success."

This, from the profoundly pro-EU Guardian, is as clear an outline as I've seen.

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/29/we-had-to-go-it-alone-how-the-uk-got-ahead-in-the-covid-vaccine-race?

I wouldn't call the Guardian pro EU by default, it's often critical of the EU - just not as rabidly and dishonestly as much of the rest of the UK media.

Regardless - it was widely reported early on that the initial doses of the Astrazeneca vaccine used in the UK came from the EU:

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-britain-astrazenec/uks-initial-astrazeneca-shots-will-come-from-europe-taskforce-says-idUKKBN28I1NH?edition-redirect=uk

The “vast, vast, vast majority” - over 80% - of the 100 million doses AstraZeneca will produce for the United Kingdom will be made there, Ian McCubbin, manufacturing lead for the Vaccine Taskforce, said, but this year’s first batches will not:

“The initial supply and it’s a little bit of a quirk of the programme actually comes from the Netherlands and Germany,” he told reporters.

“But once that’s supplied, which we expect will be all by the end of this year, then the remainder of the supply will be a UK supply chain.”

The commission played this poorly for the most part but seem to have secured substantial additional vaccine as a result of the pressure. I also think it's notable that the EU is being criticised for vaccination numbers when the major EU economies effectively delayed their vaccine uptake by 2 months to ensure smaller EU economies kept pace. It's an odd media climate where that is being sneered at.

aloooof

Isn't another consideration of the perceived poor EU vaccine rollout that, at the time the deals were signed, we didn't know which vaccines would work? I believe the UK and EU have quite different ratio's of the various vaccine's in their portfolio.

Paul Smeenus

Being critical of the EU does not mean that a newspaper is not pro EU. That's very reductive. You can be for something and still criticise it. In fact, I'd argue any healthy support for something involves being open-eyed about its flaws.

The Guardian is a paper I read a lot, I am pro-EU, I am a Remainer; it is highly pro EU. In all it's articles - the Lifestyle section, the Cultures section as much as it's reporting.

Whichever is true, whether the EU did or did not send vaccine, (and your article there is from December, about what the mooted plan was, rather than a subsequent reporting of what actually happened), morally the UK should help out, and it looks like it will. But the EU has let itself - and the likes of me - down badly. Johnston obviously doesn't give a monkey's about NI, but when push comes to shove, the EU only really does to the extent in which we are useful.

Bazzo

I got a laugh out of this:

https://newsthump.com/2021/01/30/tragedy-as-daily-mail-readers-****-themselves-to-death-after-eu-finally-makes-mistake/

The EU have fairly badly bumbled their handling of this. AZ also won't come out smelling of roses. The UK press have behaved exactly as anybody who's familiar with the UK press would expect.

Paul Smeenus

aloooof wrote: »

Isn't another consideration of the perceived poor EU vaccine rollout that, at the time the deals were signed, we didn't know which vaccines would work? I believe the UK and EU have quite different ratio's of the various vaccine's in their portfolio.

Matt Hancock is a pox. The Tory government are a toxic, valueless morass of slime, in my humble opinion.

When it came to vaccines, they committed early and thought of the greater good, in terms of getting production in place early so they could hit the ground running and the companies charging only at cost.

They have a list of sins, wrongs and crimes that, to my mind, render them unsuitable for running for election on a small school's Board of Governors. The way they approached vaccine production is a completely out-of-character story of foresight, clarity and conviction. It pains me to type that, but it's the case.

Paul Smeenus

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Being critical of the EU does not mean that a newspaper is not pro EU. That's very reductive. You can be for something and still criticise it. In fact, I'd argue any healthy support for something involves being open-eyed about its flaws.

The Guardian is a paper I read a lot, I am pro-EU, I am a Remainer; it is highly pro EU. In all it's articles - the Lifestyle section, the Cultures section as much as it's reporting.

Whichever is true, whether the EU did or did not send vaccine, (and your article there is from December, about what the mooted plan was, rather than a subsequent reporting of what actually happened), morally the UK should help out, and it looks like it will. But the EU has let itself - and the likes of me - down badly. Johnston obviously doesn't give a monkey's about NI, but when push comes to shove, the EU only really does to the extent in which we are useful.

I think the Guardian opinion pieces are like anything - opinion pieces and I rarely read them. In terms of it's news reporting they seem to be fairly neutral.

And I disagree about the equivalence between how Johnson treats NI and how the EU treats Ireland / NI. The EU immediately backed down when the Irish Government reached out. When was the last time any of the devolved Governments got that kind of immediate response from Westminster?

And the EU wasn't going to block vaccine going to NI, it has obviously lost all trust for the UK gov and wanted to make sure (given that UK supply chain wasn't being shared) that no vaccine going to NI was being sent to mainland Britain.

I think it was both an overstep and a misstep, but I can also understand where they are coming from. The UK chose to look after itself, that's fine - Germany, France etc could have done the same but instead delayed it's roll out so the wider EU community wasn't left behind. However you choose to view both approaches, only one party is taking a victory lap whilst pointing at the other mockingly.

Bazzo wrote: »

I got a laugh out of this:

https://newsthump.com/2021/01/30/tragedy-as-daily-mail-readers-****-themselves-to-death-after-eu-finally-makes-mistake/

The EU have fairly badly bumbled their handling of this. AZ also won't come out smelling of roses. The UK press have behaved exactly as anybody who's familiar with the UK press would expect.

It's highly entertaining looking at how the UK media has reporting on this in comparison to the many huge domestic **** ups. They really are a lost cause.

Paul Smeenus

Bazzo wrote: »

I got a laugh out of this:

https://newsthump.com/2021/01/30/tragedy-as-daily-mail-readers-****-themselves-to-death-after-eu-finally-makes-mistake/

The EU have fairly badly bumbled their handling of this. AZ also won't come out smelling of roses. The UK press have behaved exactly as anybody who's familiar with the UK press would expect.

That actually made me laugh out loud.

Paul Smeenus

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the Guardian opinion pieces are like anything - opinion pieces and I rarely read them. In terms of it's news reporting they seem to be fairly neutral.

And I disagree about the equivalence between how Johnson treats NI and how the EU treats Ireland / NI. The EU immediately backed down when the Irish Government reached out. When was the last time any of the devolved Governments got that kind of immediate response from Westminster?

And the EU wasn't going to block vaccine going to NI, it has obviously lost all trust for the UK gov and wanted to make sure (given that UK supply chain wasn't being shared) that no vaccine going to NI was being sent to mainland Britain.

I think it was both an overstep and a misstep, but I can also understand where they are coming from. The UK chose to look after itself, that's fine - Germany, France etc could have done the same but instead delayed it's roll out so the wider EU community wasn't left behind. However you choose to view both approaches, only one party is taking a victory lap whilst pointing at the other mockingly.



It's highly entertaining looking at how the UK media has reporting on this in comparison to the many huge domestic **** ups. They really are a lost cause.

I think you've two false equivalences there - I didn't say the EU is treating NI the same way as Johnston does, and I don't think there's any point in talking about "how the EU treats Ireland/NI". It treats the North very differently to how it treats the South.

irishbucsfan

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Matt Hancock is a pox. The Tory government are a toxic, valueless morass of slime, in my humble opinion.

When it came to vaccines, they committed early and thought of the greater good, in terms of getting production in place early so they could hit the ground running and the companies charging only at cost.

They have a list of sins, wrongs and crimes that, to my mind, render them unsuitable for running for election on a small school's Board of Governors. The way they approached vaccine production is a completely out-of-character story of foresight, clarity and conviction. It pains me to type that, but it's the case.

To be fair, there’s still plenty of time for this one-dose and delay approach to completely blow up in their face, and the results from Israel don’t seem to paint a fantastic picture for them there.

Paul Smeenus

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I think you've two false equivalences there - I didn't say the EU is treating NI the same way as Johnston does, and I don't think there's any point in talking about "how the EU treats Ireland/NI". It treats the North very differently to how it treats the South.

I think the EU bent over backwards to facilitate the GFA (to their detriment). Brexit would have completed years earlier if they hadn't back Ireland / NI.

And the vaccine checks would only have impacted NI (not Ireland) so from my perspective (and correct me if I'm wrong) but the Irish Government was petitioning on Northern Ireland's behalf and the EU acquiesced, no?

Paul Smeenus

Your first point - yes. Don't disagree, but equally, they haven't covered themselves in glory the last few days.

Your second point - yes, although after having spoken for so long (and so correctly, in my view) about the importance of not having a border on the Ireland, I don't think Ireland was selflessly stepping forward to bravely stand up for NI with no self-interest. I also don't know that the EU was acquiescing to the South rather than reacting to wider anger (from NI, the UK, the WHO etc.)

Anyway, although this is still very civil, I can sense that it might go on and on.

Paul Smeenus

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Your first point - yes. Don't disagree, but equally, they haven't covered themselves in glory the last few days.

Your second point - yes, although after having spoken for so long (and so correctly, in my view) about the importance of not having a border on the Ireland, I don't think Ireland was selflessly stepping forward to bravely stand up for NI with no self-interest. I also don't know that the EU was acquiescing to the South rather than reacting to wider anger (from NI, the UK, the WHO etc.)

Anyway, although this is still very civil, I can sense that it might go on and on.

They haven't handled the last few days well and I think that ties into your last point. I think things absolutely will go on like this, it's clear the EU are going to take a heavy handed approach to the UK. This was apparent from the initial rhetoric post brexit deal where France said enforcement would be strict and rigorous. That is how things have panned out and it's stifling business in damaging but expected ways.

Von Der Leyen specifically cited her calls with Martin in relation to backing down from using art.16 so it seems that best evidence is that this petition was successful. I think herself and one or two commissioners are probably treading on thin ice at this point too.

But yeah - I can only see relations deteriorating. The entire EU economy is going to have to rebound, the UK economy too. The UK have a deeper recession to contend with on top of the hit from brexit along with a grossly incompetent and out of touch government. If the EU - US financial services deal passes that will be a hammer blow to London too and all of a sudden massive tax generators are in jeopardy.

There is no replacing the economic loss caused by Brexit and if there is severe austerity is leveraged to deal with spiralling debt then I think the civility piece you mentioned may fall away.

I'm quite worried about the direction things are headed, and specifically concerned that Northern Ireland could be a flash point.

Paul Smeenus

Not as worried as me, bud...

swiwi_

Anyone else shedding crocodile tears for Aung San Suu Kyi? Doubt she will get Bono on her side this time. Although you never know.

Podge_irl

swiwi_ wrote: »

Anyone else shedding crocodile tears for Aung San Suu Kyi? Doubt she will get Bono on her side this time. Although you never know.

For her? Sure, whatever.

Though its not exactly ideal for the people in general.

MaybeMaybe

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Not as worried as me, bud...

Do you think there is real potential for violence again?