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Flattest shooting rifle round

  • 30-04-2020 10:41am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭ pm.


    Hi all

    What would you say is the flattest round out to 300 yards? Would it be a 243 using a light 60 grain? 204 maybe but limited due to wind drift? 22-250 or swift?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 764 ✭✭✭ hedzball


    204 with a 32gr is roughly 5.8
    22250 roughly 5.9
    17rem with a 20gr 6.3
    243 with a 55gr is roughly 6.6


    Gundata.org has a decent ballistic calculator. Out of the lot of them the 243 is probably the most versatile (ease of ammo, wide range of weights, fox and deer legal)

    I managed hundreds of foxes with a 223 for years.. moved onto a 243 about 2 years ago and its a great step up for where i shoot (wide open 3 to 400 yard fields)


  • Registered Users Posts: 393 ✭✭ Ziggieire


    .17 Remington for drops. Overall with factory ammo i would say an .243 in a 60g,
    the 60g 6mm will beat the any of the .224 rounds when it comes to wind with the extra speed , a 60g .224 round would have better bc but will not get the same speeds in a factory configuration, so they will drop more over 300 yards.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    Good article to read here...

    https://www.outdoorlife.com/story/guns/coyote-calibers-223-rem-vs-22-250-rem-vs-243-rem/

    Coyote Cartridges: .223 Rem. Vs. .22-250 Rem. Vs. .243 Win.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭ pm.


    Thanks guys, I have a 22lr a 223 and a 308 all good rounds for various tasks but for good long range fox shooting I think the 243 will be the Caliber of choice.

    For a budget of 1k what rifle would you recommend? Ideally I would like a stainless steel heavy barrel threaded.

    I had a strey Pro hunt in 243 years ago was a lazer but light barrel, I will also use the gun at the range that's the main reason for the heavy barrel

    I can't remember the twist rate should it be higher to stabilise a lighter bullet?


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 TheEngineer1


    pm. wrote: »
    Thanks guys, I have a 22lr a 223 and a 308 all good rounds for various tasks but for good long range fox shooting I think the 243 will be the Caliber of choice.

    For a budget of 1k what rifle would you recommend? Ideally I would like a stainless steel heavy barrel threaded.

    I had a strey Pro hunt in 243 years ago was a lazer but light barrel, I will also use the gun at the range that's the main reason for the heavy barrel

    I can't remember the twist rate should it be higher to stabilise a lighter bullet?

    Sako do 123gr 308 ammo, I've seen a few places stocking it. I imagine that would be very flat out to 300 meters?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭ pm.


    Thanks for that, but it seems to drop like a stone past 200, I think the 243 in a 57-60 grain will be the best option afterall its almost the same casing as the 308.

    Sako 129A Gamehead, .308" Win. calibre, 123 grain

    Muzzle velocity 925 m/s
    100m velocity 825 m/s
    200m velocity 733 m/s
    300m velocity 648 m/s

    Muzzle energy 3423 joules
    100m energy 2722 joules
    200m energy 2147 joules
    300m energy 1681 joules

    With a 150m Zero

    50m 0.4 cm (high) - roughly 1/4" high 
    100m 2.0 cm (high) - roughly 3/4" high
    150m ZERO
    200m -6 cm (low) - roughly 2 1/2" low
    250m -16.9 cm (low) - roughly 6 1/2" low 
    300m -32.7 cm (low) - roughly 13" low


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    The standard twist for standard barrel length is 1:10. That should give you good accuracy from the light weight up to 100 grain'ers. When I did shoot a 243 I tried out a selection of various weights just out of curiosity the lighter weight stuff was laser like and grouped very well out of my light weight Marlin Xs7. But my go to round for foxes and deer was the various 100gr SP I bought over the years. Not long before I traded it I used 105gr and found them again to be accurate and good for deer and fox.

    I was often tempted to buy the lighter bullets between deer sessons for foxs but not only did my mean streak stop me from forking extra money (the lighter stuff often being deerer) above the standard price I was paying for the 100gr, it was the fact that most of my foxs shot were done so well with in my point and shoot zero of 200 yards.

    I'm not sure as to prices now a days as everthing seems to have increased but I would go for something in the 80+ range that will give you a good rifle for neck shooting deer as well as a foxing rig for extended shots. No re-zero between applications and gives you a decent BC if you wanted to streach its legs on the range. I'm not a target shooter but it could be a costly yoke to run on the range compared to your .233 or 308.


  • Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭ The pigeon man


    Those three calibres have you well covered.

    Before you buy a flatter shooting foxing rifle is your 223 not flat enough shooting?

    223 cal with 40gr vmax is a very flat shooting round.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    pm. wrote: »
    Sako 129A Gamehead, .308" Win. calibre, 123 grain

    With a 150m Zero

    50m 0.4 cm (high) - roughly 1/4" high 
    100m 2.0 cm (high) - roughly 3/4" high
    150m ZERO
    200m -6 cm (low) - roughly 2 1/2" low
    250m -16.9 cm (low) - roughly 6 1/2" low 
    300m -32.7 cm (low) - roughly 13" low

    Change your Zero out to 200 yards (a very useable zero both close in and out beyound) and you'll see theres only inches in it.

    243 Win, Winchester Ballistic Silvertip, 55gr @ -4.2 inches at 300 yards

    243 Win, Winchester Soft Point, 80gr @ -6.4 inches at 300 yards

    308 Win, Winchester Ballistic Silvertip, 150gr @ 7.8 inches at 300 yards


    Just for the heck of it @ 250 yards the drop for each

    .243 55gr = -1.6 inches

    .243 80gr = -2.4 inches

    308 150 gr = -3.0 inches


    The 250 yard shot both calibres and all three grain weights into the chest of a fox wheather broad side or face on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭ pm.


    Those three calibres have you well covered?

    Before you buy a flatter shooting foxing rifle is your 223 not flat enough shooting?

    223 cal with 40gr vmax is a very flat shooting round.

    That crossed my mind, a lot of the land we shoot is wide open and I fear the lighter 40gr will drift like mad on a windy night. Our shots are between 100 and sometimes stretched out to 300.

    The lad I shoot with has a swift shooting 55gr, he has it zeroed at 200 and its just point and shoot between 100-300. I had a 243 years ago and it's one of the Calibers I regret getting rid of tbh, the 308 is a great range round but when out in the field on a dark sometimes rainy night dialling in is a pain in the balls and a trg is not the ideal field gun


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    pm. wrote: »
    That crossed my mind, a lot of the land we shoot is wide open and I fear the lighter 40gr will drift like mad on a windy night. Our shots are between 100 and sometimes stretched out to 300.

    The lad I shoot with has a swift shooting 55gr, he has it zeroed at 200 and its just point and shoot between 100-300. I had a 243 years ago and it's one of the Calibers I regret getting rid of tbh, the 308 is a great range round but when out in the field on a dark sometimes rainy night dialling in is a pain in the balls and a trg is not the ideal field gun

    As someone who has lugged a TRG around stalking I'm on the same page! Add in a Nightforce 8-32, T8 mod and it becomes heavy quick!

    Have a look at the below regarding .223 vs .243.

    95493860-3028794453867768-5944402421777170432-n.jpg
    95612668-311172049864058-4190359437610844160-n.jpg

    About an inch additional drop and drift at 300. Not sure it warrants an upgrade.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭ The pigeon man


    To settle your mind I would suggest that you hit the range with your friend that has the 220 swift once the lockdown is over.

    Zero your 223 and 220 swift at the same range and then push out the ranges.

    See if the drops are materially different between the two calibres and if you want to buy a new rifle based on this information.


  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ badshot


    if i was going to rebarrel my 243 to shoot the lighter bullets
    what twist should i go for


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭ pm.


    badshot wrote: »
    if i was going to rebarrel my 243 to shoot the lighter bullets
    what twist should i go for

    1:10 seems to be the best from what I have read


  • Registered Users Posts: 548 ✭✭✭ slipperyox


    Flattest shooting rifle is running 11000ft/s :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭ zeissman


    A 243 shooting the lighter bullets would be fine for long range fox shooting.
    You say you will also be using the rifle on the range so you need to be aware that barrel life is quite short in a 243.
    Id say you would get about 2K rounds max of accurate barrel life using it for target shooting but it would last longer if used for hunting only.
    A 223 barrel should last twice as long.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭ pm.


    Really is that it? Never knew that, that must be one of the least round counts of all the Calibers

    Would a stainless barrel be better?

    Also probably taking a chance buying a second hand one too?


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 TheEngineer1


    pm. wrote: »
    Really is that it? Never knew that, that must be one of the least round counts of all the Calibers

    Would a stainless barrel be better?

    Also probably taking a chance buying a second hand one too?

    Stainless Steel won't increase barrel life due to wear significantly, you'd need to get a chrome lined barrel.


  • Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭ zeissman


    pm. wrote: »
    Really is that it? Never knew that, that must be one of the least round counts of all the Calibers

    Would a stainless barrel be better?

    Also probably taking a chance buying a second hand one too?

    Do a search online as there is plenty of info on barrel life.
    Some guys are saying 1500 rounds and others are saying close to 3000 rounds.
    I suppose it's all down to how you use it and what you call acceptable accuracy.
    I know once I would see groups opening up I would be rebarreling it.
    It's always risky buying a 2nd hand rifle no matter what calibre.
    I recently bought a teslong bore scope for around 50 euro and it's really good for checking rifle barrels .


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭ pm.


    zeissman wrote: »
    Do a search online as there is plenty of info on barrel life.
    Some guys are saying 1500 rounds and others are saying close to 3000 rounds.
    I suppose it's all down to how you use it and what you call acceptable accuracy.
    I know once I would see groups opening up I would be rebarreling it.
    It's always risky buying a 2nd hand rifle no matter what calibre.
    I recently bought a teslong bore scope for around 50 euro and it's really good for checking rifle barrels .

    Every day is a school day I never knew the count was that low. Thanks for the information


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    Good info here and not disputing it, but.... barrel life and accuracy is very dependent on how the gun is used and the level of accuracy expected.

    A brand new barrel can be 'shot out' very quickly with a very low round count if the rifle has been abused. Abuse in this case is 'long shot strings' the continuous shooting of the rifle and having the barrel over heating. This will cause metallic structural issues from chamber to bore. Even automatic firearms ' machine guns' have a relatively low round count while when been used before the barrel must be changed out to avoid 'cooking' the barrel. Shooting round after round through a civilian barrel weather it be a pencil thin lightweight sporter or a heavy duty bull barreld target rifle will do damage.
    But shooting 3,000 rounds over the course of 30 or 40 years may have very little effect on it. Thats an average of 80 -90 ,rounds a year.

    Accuracy and its expectation.....
    If you take a bog standard rifle ( a Walmart Special) in .243 calibre and use it for hunting, take care of it and don't abuse it (as mentioned above ) and that gun was sold as MOA capable firearm then you can realisticly expect that gun to maintain its MOA capabilities for many, many years after several thousands of rounds have being put through it. Any loss of accuracy for such a gun will be negligible in terms of hunting.
    If on the other hand you are counting group size in something like 1/4 MOA and your goals and achievements are wholely dependent on this then 'you' may feel the 'barrel' is shot out when you start to see a deviation to the group size.

    There are plenty of older guns out there that continue to deliver a very good degree of accuracy relevant to there use. Remember the concept of MOA capable rifles is still relatively new, even in the mid 19th century the top end hand built rifles on offer didn't guarantee 'MOA' accuracy, the concept of it wasn't even expected.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭ pm.


    Feisar wrote: »

    Fcuk that's a mad thing lol


  • Registered Users Posts: 548 ✭✭✭ slipperyox




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    slipperyox wrote: »
    April fool?

    :D

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    That BMG .17 is some round, should be no problem licenceing that here as its just a bigger bad arsed .17 cal. Ammo availabilty would be an issue.

    I wonder if its the same crowd who does these:

    https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/brownells-now-offering-semi-auto-minigun/


  • Registered Users Posts: 548 ✭✭✭ slipperyox


    And still no final answer to the OP.

    Get a rail gun.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭ Zxthinger


    Barrel life starts when she is made. A poorly cut/broached/buttoned/hammer-forged barrel with no lapping or even a poor reaming process, and no barrel brake in will gather copper fouling like a thief on a building site.

    The swift is good, better than the 22-250 but the ammo range for the swift is just not there. Cleaning fir either is normal enough. I have the swift as I have the Deer Hunting licence on it too. And ye can't do that with 55 he hornady ammo. I'm on 55 grain Norma oryx and 60 grain Hornady HP. I have a few boxes of each and that will keep me going & BTW I never lost a deer with the swift. It's a cracking round, I have lost the front shoulder on a few as it's just to explosive in close. But at 150yards it's a laser and a surgical tool. I have seen plenty big calibre guns that could not match the repeatability of the shot to shot accuracy of the swift. There precision and then there's accuracy and the shift has it both.
    But if ammo choice was some thing you should look at a 22-250
    Similar power, a bit lower but better Ammo selection.


    17 rem will scream when she is not cleaned. No recoil worth mentioning and very nice to shoot and nearly as explosive as swift at reduced ranges. No one exit wounds on foxes really soft on nightvision scopes especially digital units with in-line battery chambers. Ammo is non existent. A few have it and once it's gone you'd have to reload and that's not something easy to get into here in Ireland.


    No exp with 243 but it has my eye!

    Over the years I learned that the cost of a gun is really the cost of feeding it with ammo and for that reason I suggest sticking with the 223 and developing a MPBR that gives you 300 yards with small adjustment. You should really consider sticking with the 223 and leaning to hold over at 200 -300 yards.
    I know that night time range finding in big fields is tough but if you know the lengths of certain fields then you can use this as yard stick. It's also a bit easier to range in real white light at night as opposed to coloured beams on NV spotters.
    The Mil-Dot scope was often used with the add-on NV scope but I had time to use it, I'd use the height as the best metric but I often used the eyes to as a 4" gauge (can remember what the height of a fox I used but I thing it was 16" to the shoulder. But you need to be at it and stay at it.

    With the 22mag i often took running foxes on the lamp out to 150 and to be fair that was more a kin to sport than Nv which is just culling.

    I miss my 22wmrs...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭ pm.


    Good post thanks, you are definitely correct about the swift its an absolute lazer and huge hitting power out to 300 and possibly a bit more. It was on my list until I found out that ammo can be hard got.

    During the day and at the range I can easily figure out the 223 by using the mil dots in the scope, but when I'm in the large open fields an night with the pard on the scope its very difficult to range.

    I put the pard onto the swift and it is in a different league compared to the 223 with regards to hitting power and actually hitting a fox out to 300 yards without the bullet drops.

    I really am leaning towards the 243 because I previously had one and know what they are capable of and imo will out perform the swift with a larger selection of ammo to choose from. With regards kick I don't think it's too bad with a mod on, a little more that the swift but not much.

    Great information lads appreciate the response, and I really want to justify ( even a little :) that a 243 is worth having as I have an empty space in the cabnit. Just about picking the correct rifle now


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭ pm.


    Just did a deal on the gun a sako 85 varmint, bought from pat Cleary in Wexford a gentleman to deal with https://m.facebook.com/patrickcarleyfirearms/posts/?ref=page_internal&mt_nav=0

    Now I need a picatinny rail


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