Tenant refusing to pay

lsjmhar

Mustardson wrote:

I am a landlord with a 2-bed apartment in North-West Dublin. I bought the apartment in 2018 (at age 28, with all my savings and a parental loan too!). Late last year I decided to go travelling with my girlfriend and move to Australia for a year or potentially two, and rented out the apartment.

Mustardson wrote:

The rent is 1,700 Euro per month. The tenant advised that their work has been stopped temporarily due to Covid-19, and is refusing to pay anything. They say when they get the rent supplement, they will give me that (a maximum of 900 Euro). However, they are refusing to contribute a single cent themselves. I've tried to open negotiations to a fair compromised rate during the pandemic but he refuses.

Mustardson wrote:

He only submitted the rent supplement form this week, despite claiming he lost his work 5 weeks ago. I was also conscious of renting for the first time and before signing the agreement had unofficial conversations with them asking about their savings etc., as I didn't want to have to evict a couple with a child. He promised he had savings. I explicitly asked about if he lost his job would he be OK for 3-6 months, and he promised he would be. I appreciate this isn't legally binding but I feel it shows that he is using this situation to take advantage of me.

Mustardson wrote:

Does anyone have any advice as to how I should proceed? I feel I've been fair with my assessment, but the next month's rent is due today and he has paid nothing. My parents suggested contacting a solicitor but they said they wouldn't get involved (I assume they don't want their name attached to any potential issues down the line). All the guidance from the government advises that tenants still have to pay their rent but all those messages are just being ignored.

Mustardson wrote:

I appreciate that there is little sympathy for landlords. However, I put all my savings into buying this apartment, and don't think I should be treated the same as some person who has 5 properties etc. I'm now working in Australia paying living costs, rent and bills for myself and my girlfriend, who is unable to get a job as over 800,000 Australians have been let go and the working holiday visa is quite restrictive for employers. This is on top of my mortgage/management fees etc. for the apartment at home.

Mustardson wrote:

Any advice would be appreciated.

Mustardson wrote:

Thank you.

Welcome to the world of the landed class! This is the story of so many people on here unfortunately!!

TheBoyConor

Given that by the book eviction is night on impossible these days and that you may have to go a year or 18 months without a cent in rent, one starts to wonder whether it might be more cost effective to just go ahead and evict anyway, and deal with the rtb case and payout .
It might work out cheaper than the losses arising from a protracted period with no rent.

Paulownia

I n the case of a non paying tenant you must issue a warning and you should do that as soon as possible rather than doing deals, that is the legislation, not easy to get a tenant out at the best of times and impossible during the lockdown but you might as well take the first step, look on the PRTB website and follow the formulas. Many tenants who can afford to pay are presently withholding rent in the hope that the government will make a decision that landlords will have to waive rent but that is unconstitutional

Graham

Mod Note

Discussion of withholding tax moved to a separate thread.

Carioco

I'm pretty sure anyone could open a credit card if they haven't already.

Unfortunately you are goosed. Your going to be waiting at least 18 months. You'll have to give them an incentive to leave i.e pay them to go.

After Covid I would serve them the notice and wait the period required. I know people who have gone down the forcible eviction route and although it some cases they went on their way, it went legal and was a nightmare. You'd also be turfing out a couple with a kid so if it did go legal then you'd be hit hard.

Correct me if I'm wrong but two parents is 2800euros a month, plus child allowance and if they're not married they would get single mother allowance. They could easily afford to pay even 1500euros a month if they had the intention to do so.

I think you're in for a long ride OP. Take the hit and pay them a few grand to get them out. You'll save money in the long term.

JimmyVik

Carioco wrote: »

I'm pretty sure anyone could open a credit card if they haven't already.

Unfortunately you are goosed. Your going to be waiting at least 18 months. You'll have to give them an incentive to leave i.e pay them to go.

After Covid I would serve them the notice and wait the period required. I know people who have gone down the forcible eviction route and although it some cases they went on their way, it went legal and was a nightmare. You'd also be turfing out a couple with a kid so if it did go legal then you'd be hit hard.

Correct me if I'm wrong but two parents is 2800euros a month, plus child allowance and if they're not married they would get single mother allowance. They could easily afford to pay even 1500euros a month if they had the intention to do so.

I think you're in for a long ride OP. Take the hit and pay them a few grand to get them out. You'll save money in the long term.

There are already people who hold property and actually ask for money to leave. Do we really want to encourage more people to do that?

Paulownia

JimmyVik wrote: »

There are already people who hold property and actually ask for money to leave. Do we really want to encourage more people to do that?

I wouldn’t pay them either, go down the warning route and after those the notice to quit and the PRTB will back you up on getting them out but in my experience expect to have a major cleanup after that

Claw Hammer

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Given that by the book eviction is night on impossible these days and that you may have to go a year or 18 months without a cent in rent, one starts to wonder whether it might be more cost effective to just go ahead and evict anyway, and deal with the rtb case and payout .
It might work out cheaper than the losses arising from a protracted period with no rent.

What if the RTB obtained an injunction forcing you to let the tenant back in? You would have the costs of the injunction plus the lack of rent , plus the fine for an illegal eviction.

Claw Hammer

Paulownia wrote: »

I wouldn’t pay them either, go down the warning route and after those the notice to quit and the PRTB will back you up on getting them out but in my experience expect to have a major cleanup after that

There is no such thing as a notice to quit in residential tenancies. During the emergency notices of termination can't be served. The RTB has a discretion on enforcing its own orders and may or may not back up a landlord.

Dav010

Claw Hammer wrote: »

What if the RTB obtained an injunction forcing you to let the tenant back in? You would have the costs of the injunction plus the lack of rent , plus the fine for an illegal eviction.

The RTB obtains a high court injunction for an illegal eviction? That would cost a bit when they are all added up. I didn’t think they were that well funded.

Crazy stuff!.

Paulownia

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There is no such thing as a notice to quit in residential tenancies. During the emergency notices of termination can't be served. The RTB has a discretion on enforcing its own orders and may or may not back up a landlord.

In my experience with the PRTB they have been very helpful but in each case I was working through them and not that the tenant used them against me, get to them first!

overkill602

Claw Hammer wrote: »

What if the RTB obtained an injunction forcing you to let the tenant back in? You would have the costs of the injunction plus the lack of rent , plus the fine for an illegal eviction.

And what if the place was no longer habitable needed work could they force the LL to make good where would the tenants stay while this is being done
Any future relationship would be be less than amicable owner may have moved somebody else in or sold the property
Would want a proven thief back on your property.

Carioco

JimmyVik wrote: »

There are already people who hold property and actually ask for money to leave. Do we really want to encourage more people to do that?

I detest it but I am just trying to help the OP.

He can choose 18 months of no rent or pay the tenants a few bob and move them on and get paying tenants in their place.

18 months x 1700 is 30,600euros. He could probably get them out for 3000 and he would be over half way there on the deposit alone off his new tenants.

Claw Hammer

Dav010 wrote: »

The RTB obtains a high court injunction for an illegal eviction? That would cost a bit when they are all added up. I didn’t think they were that well funded.

Crazy stuff!.

There is no need to go to the High Court for an injunction. The RTB is in the High Court frequently in any case. In most cases the RTB contacts the landlord and tells the landlord that unless the tenant is let back in straight away the RTB will seek an injunction and the landlord may be made liable for the costs.

Residential Tenancies Act.

189.—(1) In this section “dispute” means a dispute falling within the jurisdiction of the Board under Part 6.

(2) The following provisions have effect if the circumstances giving rise to or involving the dispute are such that, were proceedings in the Circuit Court to be brought in relation to the dispute, it would be appropriate to apply to that court for interim or interlocutory relief in the matter.

(3) On being requested by the person (the “referrer”) who has referred or is referring a dispute to it to do so, the Board may apply, on the referrer's behalf, to the Circuit Court for such interim or interlocutory relief in the matter as the Board considers appropriate.

(4) In deciding whether to accede to such a request the Board may have regard to—

(a) the merits, as they appear to it, of the referrer's contentions that will be dealt with by an adjudicator or the Tribunal,

(b) the amount of damages the Board is likely to have to pay to the respondent to the application (on foot of an undertaking required of it by the court to pay such damages) in the event such damages have to be paid, but the Board's opinion—

(i) that those contentions of the referrer are unlikely to be accepted by an adjudicator or the Tribunal, or

(ii) that the amount of those damages is likely to be substantial,

shall, in neither case, and without prejudice to subsection (5) be conclusive in favour of the Board's refusing to accede to the request if, in all the circumstances, the Board considers that it ought to accede to it.

(5) The fact of the Board's being of the opinion referred to in subsection (4)(ii) shall not be taken into account by it in deciding whether to accede to a request under subsection (3) if the referrer undertakes to defray in whole the amount of damages the Board may become liable to pay in the circumstances mentioned in subsection (4) and the Board is satisfied the referrer has the means to be able to comply with that undertaking.

(6) On application to the Circuit Court by the Board under this section, the Circuit Court may grant such interim or interlocutory relief in the matter as it thinks appropriate.

Caranica

Carioco wrote: »

I detest it but I am just trying to help the OP.

He can choose 18 months of no rent or pay the tenants a few bob and move them on and get paying tenants in their place.

18 months x 1700 is 30,600euros. He could probably get them out for 3000 and he would be over half way there on the deposit alone off his new tenants.

And the tenant could still raise an illegal eviction case.

Claw Hammer

Caranica wrote: »

And the tenant could still raise an illegal eviction case.

If the tenant leaves voluntarily they have no grounds for an eviction case.

The_Conductor

Carioco wrote: »

I detest it but I am just trying to help the OP.

He can choose 18 months of no rent or pay the tenants a few bob and move them on and get paying tenants in their place.

18 months x 1700 is 30,600euros. He could probably get them out for 3000 and he would be over half way there on the deposit alone off his new tenants.

And the new tenants could very well play the same stunt.
Keep in mind Sinn Féin's Eoin O'Broin is still gunning for a lumpsum payment to all tenants when they vacate a tenancy. The idea is out there- and some people are running with it for all its worth.

handlemaster

The_Conductor wrote: »

And the new tenants could very well play the same stunt.
Keep in mind Sinn Féin's Eoin O'Broin is still gunning for a lumpsum payment to all tenants when they vacate a tenancy. The idea is out there- and some people are running with it for all its worth.

Sinn Fein.. when we were all in the trenches not a peep from them now that Leo has given the signal of the road to come out of the lock down you will hear all their brilliant ideas. Clueless they are

Taylor365

The smugness in which people respond to LLs just trying to protect their asset...


Would swear they weren't offering a non-compulsory service :pac:

lord quackinton

Mustardson wrote: »

Hi,

I am a landlord with a 2-bed apartment in North-West Dublin. I bought the apartment in 2018 (at age 28, with all my savings and a parental loan too!). Late last year I decided to go travelling with my girlfriend and move to Australia for a year or potentially two, and rented out the apartment.

The rent is 1,700 Euro per month. The tenant advised that their work has been stopped temporarily due to Covid-19, and is refusing to pay anything. They say when they get the rent supplement, they will give me that (a maximum of 900 Euro). However, they are refusing to contribute a single cent themselves. I've tried to open negotiations to a fair compromised rate during the pandemic but he refuses.

He only submitted the rent supplement form this week, despite claiming he lost his work 5 weeks ago. I was also conscious of renting for the first time and before signing the agreement had unofficial conversations with them asking about their savings etc., as I didn't want to have to evict a couple with a child. He promised he had savings. I explicitly asked about if he lost his job would he be OK for 3-6 months, and he promised he would be. I appreciate this isn't legally binding but I feel it shows that he is using this situation to take advantage of me.

Does anyone have any advice as to how I should proceed? I feel I've been fair with my assessment, but the next month's rent is due today and he has paid nothing. My parents suggested contacting a solicitor but they said they wouldn't get involved (I assume they don't want their name attached to any potential issues down the line). All the guidance from the government advises that tenants still have to pay their rent but all those messages are just being ignored.

I appreciate that there is little sympathy for landlords. However, I put all my savings into buying this apartment, and don't think I should be treated the same as some person who has 5 properties etc. I'm now working in Australia paying living costs, rent and bills for myself and my girlfriend, who is unable to get a job as over 800,000 Australians have been let go and the working holiday visa is quite restrictive for employers. This is on top of my mortgage/management fees etc. for the apartment at home.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you.

I know you do not want hear this but get a good solicitor And sell the property
It will take time and cost you money but Ireland is no place for small landlords who need the rental income to pay the mortgage
It’s a mugs game and the landlord is always the mug

Best now just get the solicitor to deal with it completely and you just try and forget about it and live your life and be happy
I know it’s hard but you cannot let yourself dwell to much on this or you will go off your head
Good luck

overkill602

U could just put the house on the market with tenant in place cut your losses and move on

Caranica

overkill602 wrote: »

U could just put the house on the market with tenant in place cut your losses and move on

Only available to a cash buyer so, banks require vacant possession for mortgages

Donald Trump

Taylor365 wrote: »

The smugness in which people respond to LLs just trying to protect their asset...


Would swear they weren't offering a non-compulsory service :pac:

As you say, with your double negatives, it is not compulsory to provide that "service".


If a person chooses to do so, then that is their choice. They get the benefits and take the risks of doing so.


It unfortunate when a person get stung and you can debate all day about what protections could or should be there and for which party. But at the end of the day, as you said and I agree, it isn't compulsory for the LL to be in that business. They either made deliberate choice to do so, or made choices that put them in that position indirectly.

Mustardson

Browney7 wrote: »

OP, can you confirm a few facts.

Does his partner work or is it just him? If it had been just his income which has now stopped it's clear there has been a severe drop in their income but not that this "should" be your problem.

As you are in Australia, I assume you are tax resident there - has the tenant been paying you the rent directly or to an agent? There is the possibility that they should be deducting 20% from the rent themselves to pay to revenue. This is the tenants responsibility.

Have you given them a fixed term 1 year lease or is there no fixed term? If no fixed term I would be serving them with a termination once the Pandemic is over but I suspect you have given a one year fixed term? It looks like from your post you entered into the agreement less than 6 months ago.

In the event of an RTB hearing, do you have someone who can attend for you and make your case for you as you're abroad?

Hi,
It's just the gentleman that works.
It is a 1 year fixed term lease. And yes, the lease began November 1st.
If it does go down the RTB route, thankfully my brother is based in Dublin and could attend on my behalf.
I have contacted 2 solicitors. Both advised they wouldn't get involved given the pandemic.

Mustardson

Hi all,

Thank you for your replies and advice. It is much appreciated.
For what it's worth, I've tentatively approached 2 solicitors and neither wanted to issue a letter given the pandemic.
I'm in the process of slowing getting the tenant to submit the rent supplement application form (they are a non-Irish national and are repeatedly submitting it incorrectly/incomplete, and misinterpreting what is required. I'm being as patient as possible to help as ultimately it's my loss).

snoopboggybog

I'm not a Landlord but a bit shocked that tenants can live free for a year and not have to pay back anything.

I'm quite surprised more are not doing it.

Is there anything in place for repeat tenants doing this?

I can see some people:

Paying deposit and first months rent; not paying anything after this; evicted after 12 months; Doing the same thing again.

There has to be some repercussions

Mad_maxx

Bloomberg is

snoopboggybog wrote: »

I'm not a Landlord but a bit shocked that tenants can live free for a year and not have to pay back anything.

I'm quite surprised more are not doing it.

Is there anything in place for repeat tenants doing this?

I can see some people:

Paying deposit and first months rent; not paying anything after this; evicted after 12 months; Doing the same thing again.

There has to be some repercussions

Rogue tenants can live free for two years if they know the game and have enough hard neck

No repercussions, landlord can sing for any redress

snoopboggybog

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Rogue tenants can live free for two years if they know the game and have enough hard neck

No wonder people prefer Air BnB. I'm sure after the two years they can just go ahead and "rent" another property?

The_Conductor

snoopboggybog wrote: »

No wonder people prefer Air BnB. I'm sure after the two years they can just go ahead and "rent" another property?

Yup.
There is no database logging this- as its a breach of people's rights.
So- there are serial offendors- in increasing numbers, doing this- which is why its now the top level complaint at the RTB (overall- not just from landlords).

dubrov

snoopboggybog wrote: »

I'm not a Landlord but a bit shocked that tenants can live free for a year and not have to pay back anything.

I'm quite surprised more are not doing it.

Is there anything in place for repeat tenants doing this?

I can see some people:

Paying deposit and first months rent; not paying anything after this; evicted after 12 months; Doing the same thing again.

There has to be some repercussions

They still owe the money and you can take them to court to retrieve it.
The problem is that they may have no assets and you can't get blood out of a stone.

The most important part of being a landlord is the due diligence before you let a tenant into the place.