Can an employer force employees to change to work from home

Connavar

My employer has decided to close it's one of its offices in cork and is telling us that some of us will have to work from home full time from now on.
We have the ability to do this at present and are doing it during the lockdown which is fine but I have no interest in doing it long term.
Should we get redundancy if they force it on us and we don't agree?

Sos88sos88

Connavar wrote:

My employer has decided to close it's one of its offices in cork and is telling us that some of us will have to work from home full time from now on. We have the ability to do this at present and are doing it during the lockdown which is fine but I have no interest in doing it long term. Should we get redundancy if they force it on us and we don't agree?

Most contracts will have a clause saying that the office location is subject to change. To be honest I am not sure how binding it would be but prob a good start

rock22

Perhaps , if the office is moving to your home, you might change your employer a rent for use of your home?

_Brian

It’s an interesting scenario.

It’s not a redundancy scenario because your job still exists.

I’m not sure that a location may change clause as mentioned above would be enforceable either because the employer isn’t providing an alternative location to move to.

Someone mentioned charging the employer, that income would be taxable and I’d expect would represent a change of use from residential to commercial which would require planning and there would likely be insurance questions to be asked.

I would wonder about constructive dismissal.
If you continually appeal the move and no resolution is reached and you feel you’ve been forced to a situation where you have no other option but to resign them that would fit a constructive dismissal framework.

It’s not for the faint hearted though. And you need to demonstrate that you exhausted every possible avenue of recourse before resigning your position.

The last thing I’d add is to review your reasons for rejecting work from home, can some arrangement not be made to make this work ??

Connavar

_Brian wrote: »

It’s an interesting scenario.

It’s not a redundancy scenario because your job still exists.

I’m not sure that a location may change clause as mentioned above would be enforceable either because the employer isn’t providing an alternative location to move to.

Someone mentioned charging the employer, that income would be taxable and I’d expect would represent a change of use from residential to commercial which would require planning and there would likely be insurance questions to be asked.

I would wonder about constructive dismissal.
If you continually appeal the move and no resolution is reached and you feel you’ve been forced to a situation where you have no other option but to resign them that would fit a constructive dismissal framework.

It’s not for the faint hearted though. And you need to demonstrate that you exhausted every possible avenue of recourse before resigning your position.

The last thing I’d add is to review your reasons for rejecting work from home, can some arrangement not be made to make this work ??

Honestly I just don't like the isolation of it. Video calls are great and all but don't create the same connections that meeting in person every day does.

Jim Root

It's am interesting question. I know of colleagues who live in house shares with 3/4 other people and just don't have the space or a proper desk to work from home. I was under the impression that if WFH was to become permanent they onus is on the employer to undergo a health and safety assessment of the employees proposed work space.

antix80

rock22 wrote: »

Perhaps , if the office is moving to your home, you might change your employer a rent for use of your home?

There are tax implications in doing this and it would defeat the employer's goal of reducing office space.

Something useful would be:
Revenue allows an employer to make payments up to €3.20 per day. (employer has no obligation)

Cuddlesworth

Jim Root wrote: »

It's am interesting question. I know of colleagues who live in house shares with 3/4 other people and just don't have the space or a proper desk to work from home. I was under the impression that if WFH was to become permanent they onus is on the employer to undergo a health and safety assessment of the employees proposed work space.

It sounds like the company like the idea and are half assing it. But it's also a significant change to the OP's working conditions, not supplying a office.

Most work from home positions have allowances for broadband and equipment(desks/chairs...etc). And other expectations, like a seperate locked space in which to work from.

Wabbit Ears

we may have an option to more or less permanently WFH also. the company is doing this on a case by case basis but one thing that is being discussed is a home office kit-out one-off payment as people have said that, if they need to WFH, they need a desk, office chair, two monitors, docking station, keyboard etc. New hires would be expected to have their own home office equipment as the job would be advertised as WFH but existing folk need assistance in the transition.

Isolation is a major problem with WFH Jobs, there's tons of referable articles about it. I would suggest that the WFH deal include regular-in person meetings or gatherings. Id also suggest you request the company survey and ensure all employees have proper ergonomics for working from home.

Wabbit Ears

another option is to use shared office space... there are quite a few places out there nowadays where you work in an office environment and have human interaction, but they are not your co-workers. You get proper desk, chair, broadband etc.

Mrs OBumble

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

another option is to use shared office space... there are quite a few places out there nowadays where you work in an office environment and have human interaction, but they are not your co-workers. You get proper desk, chair, broadband etc.

Depending on the industry, there can be huge GDPR / company-data-security issues with these places. You have no idea who can overhear your calls or see your screen.

coolisin

Connavar wrote: »

My employer has decided to close it's one of its offices in cork and is telling us that some of us will have to work from home full time from now on.
We have the ability to do this at present and are doing it during the lockdown which is fine but I have no interest in doing it long term.
Should we get redundancy if they force it on us and we don't agree?

I wouldn't expect redundancy.
But I would expect compensation for the extra electricity and broadband to be subsidised for you.
Also providing you with a chair a desk and IT equipment to make an office, you cannot be living in a temp solution like a kitchen counter or dining table if its the permanent solution.
Also you should request a team meeting be in place once/twice a month for people to attend in person, when all of this is done.

AndyBoBandy

antix80 wrote: »

There are tax implications in doing this and it would defeat the employer's goal of reducing office space.

Something useful would be:
Revenue allows an employer to make payments up to €3.20 per day. (employer has no obligation)

bear in mind if the employer won't make any contribution (which most won't), you are still entitled to claim tax relief on 10% of your annual home heating/electricity/home internet costs.

Connavar

Thanks everyone. Have a meeting with hr about it next week and just wanted to go in with a bit more knowledge.
I wont be staying in the company if this is enforced so kind of feels like constructive dismissal to me but I know that is a big stretch.
The idea of working in one of the shared office spaces is interesting but honestly if they arent paying for it I will be better off just moving on.

beauf

Connavar wrote: »

Honestly I just don't like the isolation of it. ....

It's an interesting question. It's raised a few scenerio's that I hadn't considered.

Strumms

Connavar wrote: »

Thanks everyone. Have a meeting with hr about it next week and just wanted to go in with a bit more knowledge.
I wont be staying in the company if this is enforced so kind of feels like constructive dismissal to me but I know that is a big stretch.
The idea of working in one of the shared office spaces is interesting but honestly if they arent paying for it I will be better off just moving on.

I’d go in with the attitude that you are under zero obligation to provide the company with a workplace/workstation at home. You accepted the job based on the fact that it was an office job, pay of xxxxx per annum, a working location in a suitable professional environment at xx address. Your home is NOT a suitable work environment and it cannot be made one, will not be made one.

No fûcking way would I make my home a work-base. Work and home should be separated 100%. Otherwise you’ll have phones going off at all hours with “ sorry, just log onto your email for a min I need your opinion on xyz”... you’ll be watching a football game with friends and or family and having to put up with that sheet. Nope.

Steve

OP, When the economy collapses, and it's probably going to, you may regret deciding not to adapt.

Working from home is not so bad, I've been doing it for years now.

Those that show initiative are most likely to survive. Die hards will certainly suffer.

Jim2007

Connavar wrote: »

Thanks everyone. Have a meeting with hr about it next week and just wanted to go in with a bit more knowledge.
I wont be staying in the company if this is enforced so kind of feels like constructive dismissal to me but I know that is a big stretch.
The idea of working in one of the shared office spaces is interesting but honestly if they arent paying for it I will be better off just moving on.

I think you probably need to take a step back and realise that normal as you knew it is gone and probably will not return.

This virus is likely to be a problem for say at least two years and working from is going to be a thing that most people get used to doing and going back into the office will not be popular with most people nor with many companies who will see it as a cost saving opportunity.

If other potential job offers involves a high level of WFH, where would you prefer to be? with your current employer or somewhere else?

Connavar

Jim2007 wrote: »

I think you probably need to take a step back and realise that normal as you knew it is gone and probably will not return.

This virus is likely to be a problem for say at least two years and working from is going to be a thing that most people get used to doing and going back into the office will not be popular with most people nor with many companies who will see it as a cost saving opportunity.

If other potential job offers involves a high level of WFH, where would you prefer to be? with your current employer or somewhere else?

If other job offers required wfh i wouldnt move. Its my reason for wanting the move in the first place.
And I know this virus will be around a while. But the company are leading this as the permanent approach, not just while the virus is impacting.

From the amount of complaining I am hearing about the move and complete lack of people happy about it I am pretty sure I am with the popular opinion in the office on this one

Steve

Connavar wrote: »

I am pretty sure I am with the popular opinion in the office on this one

Popular does't make it right.

If your popular choice is followed by everyone else as well and causes your employer to go under and shut the doors, where are you left?

krissovo

Connavar wrote: »

I wont be staying in the company if this is enforced so kind of feels like constructive dismissal to me but I know that is a big stretch.

There is zero chance this will be constructive dismissal unless you are the only one effected. Brandishing that terminology in a HR meeting would not be the best strategy.

You best approach is to review the logistics of it all (desk, training, chairs etc) and the suitability of your home office and also talk about alternative options as you perform best in a office environment blah blah blah you get the jist of it, appear positive but seek alternative solutions. We shut an office last year and a small team wanted a office, we placed them in a flexible office/incubator hub and they are really happy and my company save some money so there maybe other options.

My company are implementing a policy of 50% attendance in the offices once we start returning, we are going to be telling 80% of staff initially they will work from home and start a consultation period, the number will end up at 50%

dennyk

Strumms wrote: »

No fûcking way would I make my home a work-base. Work and home should be separated 100%. Otherwise you’ll have phones going off at all hours with “ sorry, just log onto your email for a min I need your opinion on xyz”... you’ll be watching a football game with friends and or family and having to put up with that sheet. Nope.

Setting boundaries for work/life balance is a completely separate issue. I've been working from home for a while, and at quitting time the work laptop goes off and I don't look at a damn thing that's work-related until the next morning. If your boss tries to call you after hours, they can talk to your voicemail and you can follow up on the next working day.

Connavar

Steve wrote: »

Popular does't make it right.

If your popular choice is followed by everyone else as well and causes your employer to go under and shut the doors, where are you left?

Was more referring to the point made saying most people wont want to go back to the office.
And with my employer, they are expanding their headcount now and are actually making more money from the crisis so dont think thats a worry

Connavar

krissovo wrote: »

There is zero chance this will be constructive dismissal unless you are the only one effected. Brandishing that terminology in a HR meeting would not be the best strategy.

You best approach is to review the logistics of it all (desk, training, chairs etc) and the suitability of your home office and also talk about alternative options as you perform best in a office environment blah blah blah you get the jist of it, appear positive but seek alternative solutions. We shut an office last year and a small team wanted a office, we placed them in a flexible office/incubator hub and they are really happy and my company save some money so there maybe other options.

My company are implementing a policy of 50% attendance in the offices once we start returning, we are going to be telling 80% of staff initially they will work from home and start a consultation period, the number will end up at 50%

Thanks for the advice. Yeah honestly I knew the constructive dismissal one was a huge stretch, hence leaving it to see if anyone said it actually was plausible.
I really dont mind it being like this while the virus is at large as I understand that its required. Its the permancy of it that annoys me

MarkR

I know OP doesn't like working from home, but I can't see ANY office being able to open up properly in the foreseeable future. What do you propose as an alternative?

Connavar

MarkR wrote: »

I know OP doesn't like working from home, but I can't see ANY office being able to open up properly in the foreseeable future. What do you propose as an alternative?

Think we were posting at the same time. As I mentioned above, its not the work from home being implemented now that I have a problem with. Its the fact that they are making it permanent

rock22

rock22 wrote: »

Perhaps , if the office is moving to your home, you might change your employer a rent for use of your home?

there's a WFH tax credit iirc, it's about €3.20.
That and the employer providing a desk, proper chair etc so you are ergonomically sound and that's that I reckon.
If anyone doesn't like it go job hunting.

Jim2007

Connavar wrote: »

If other job offers required wfh i wouldnt move. Its my reason for wanting the move in the first place.
And I know this virus will be around a while. But the company are leading this as the permanent approach, not just while the virus is impacting.

From the amount of complaining I am hearing about the move and complete lack of people happy about it I am pretty sure I am with the popular opinion in the office on this one

I doubt popular will come into it... presumably if they have made the decision to close it down, they have already considered the possibility that some will say no and it is not an issue for them.

FFVII

OP living the dream and doesn't even realize.

Isolation... pffft.

dennyk

FFVII wrote: »

OP living the dream and doesn't even realize.

Isolation... pffft.

I love working from home myself, but it's definitely not for everyone. Some folks need the social contact or in-person collaboration that's only possible in an office environment, and some have houses full of noisy kids/pets/family/etc. and find it difficult to get their work done with the constant distractions at home. Not everyone is a reclusive introvert like us... :pac:

cython

Augeo wrote: »

there's a WFH tax credit iirc, it's about €3.20.
That and the employer providing a desk, proper chair etc so you are ergonomically sound and that's that I reckon.
If anyone doesn't like it go job hunting.

The tax credit is nowhere near that. Employers can (but aren't obliged to) pay employees €3.20 tax free per day to WFH, and if they don't then you can claim relief on a very small amount of your home energy bills (unlikely to benefit you to anything near the tune of €3.20 per day) provided you have a letter stating the employer require you to WFH.

average_runner

Connavar wrote: »

Think we were posting at the same time. As I mentioned above, its not the work from home being implemented now that I have a problem with. Its the fact that they are making it permanent

Alot of IT companies doing this and its the way forward. You are entitled to a desk and chair after 3 months.

No need to be in an office anymore. It's the way forward

AndrewJRenko

average_runner wrote: »

Alot of IT companies doing this and its the way forward. You are entitled to a desk and chair after 3 months.

No need to be in an office anymore. It's the way forward

Where is this entitlement set out? I know good employers are doing this, but I don't think it is a legal entitlement.

AndyBoBandy

cython wrote: »

The tax credit is nowhere near that. Employers can (but aren't obliged to) pay employees €3.20 tax free per day to WFH, and if they don't then you can claim relief on a very small amount of your home energy bills

It's 10% of your annual heating/electricity/internet cost. Myself & OH only claimed this credit in the last 2 weeks (home based the last 8 years)

For me, I got 365 days worth of it, for herself, they deducted weekends, bank holidays & annual leave, so it all depends on who you get when you make the claim.... (she's foreign, I'm Irish) We were also able to claim back 4 years back to 2016.

For each year she got a refund of €90, I got a little bit more (don't know the exact figure as I also adjusted my medical insurance relief figure).

It's not a lot in the grand scheme of things, but it's also not nothing, so worth doing...

You can only add the claim in the 2019 review, and for previous years, they need to manually add it for you as the option to include it only appeared in the 2019 reviews.

average_runner

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Where is this entitlement set out? I know good employers are doing this, but I don't think it is a legal entitlement.

Maybe I am wrong, I know ours did it and a good few others.

Non solum non ambulabit

Connavar wrote: »

My employer has decided to close it's one of its offices in cork and is telling us that some of us will have to work from home full time from now on.
We have the ability to do this at present and are doing it during the lockdown which is fine but I have no interest in doing it long term.
Should we get redundancy if they force it on us and we don't agree?

I'm sure they can

bucketybuck

coolisin wrote: »

I wouldn't expect redundancy.

The employer has closed the office. Shut it down. Permanently.

If I was the OP I would expect to hear the word redundancy very quickly should they start complaining.

Mrs OBumble

bucketybuck wrote: »

The employer has closed the office. Shut it down. Permanently.

If I was the OP I would expect to hear the word redundancy very quickly should they start complaining.

If the contract has the standard clauses about being able to vary the workplace, then I'd expect to hear the word insubordination, rather than the word redundancy.

AndrewJRenko

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If the contract has the standard clauses about being able to vary the workplace, then I'd expect to hear the word insubordination, rather than the word redundancy.

There's a difference between varying the workplace and not having a workplace at all. Work from home is fundamentally different.

rn

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

It's 10% of your annual heating/electricity/internet cost. Myself & OH only claimed this credit in the last 2 weeks (home based the last 8 years)

For me, I got 365 days worth of it, for herself, they deducted weekends, bank holidays & annual leave, so it all depends on who you get when you make the claim.... (she's foreign, I'm Irish) We were also able to claim back 4 years back to 2016.

For each year she got a refund of €90, I got a little bit more (don't know the exact figure as I also adjusted my medical insurance relief figure).

It's not a lot in the grand scheme of things, but it's also not nothing, so worth doing...

You can only add the claim in the 2019 review, and for previous years, they need to manually add it for you as the option to include it only appeared in the 2019 reviews.

BTW you've over claimed this credit, you shouldn't claim 365 days of it. Only the days you worked. Weekends, public holidays and your own 20 days annual leave should be deducted from the 365 days.

It's 10% sum of annual light, heat and broadband. Divided by 365, multiply by no of days working.

AndyBoBandy

rn wrote: »

BTW you've over claimed this credit, you shouldn't claim 365 days of it. Only the days you worked. Weekends, public holidays and your own 20 days annual leave should be deducted from the 365 days.

It's 10% sum of annual light, heat and broadband. Divided by 365, multiply by no of days working.

.

I leave my computers on 24/7, and most weekends would check emails on both days, and reply to a few too.

I’m only assuming they gave me 365 days worth as they never asked me to remove the weekend days and vacation/bank holiday days, but perhaps they calculated this on my behalf, it was just when the OH claimed, they asked her to calculate this...

Akrasia

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If the contract has the standard clauses about being able to vary the workplace, then I'd expect to hear the word insubordination, rather than the word redundancy.

The should definitely check their contract, many contracts do not have such a clause, and some even prohibit working from home except in exceptional circumstances.

Also, even with a relocation clause,
I’m pretty sure there are limits on how far the company can relocate the office before they need to offer redundancy but it would be decided in the courts

They can move to a different location within the same area, but they can’t relocate to a new country and expect their staff to commute an extra 2 hours a day or move house at short notice.

It would come down to your employment contract, and an interpretation of reasonableness on your part and on your employers part

If your house is completely unsuitable to WFH from and your employer isn’t offering you any support to adapt it or move to a better house, then you might have a case. On the other hand, if you have been offered all the support you need and you can WFH but you just do not want to, then you have a much weaker case.

For constructive dismissal you would need to create a record of communication with your employer stating your objections to WFH including statements that the isolation is affecting your mental health and your performance at work cannot be guaranteed

The employer would then have an obligation to put supports in place to address your concerns, should they fail to do so or if they dismiss them entirely and proceed with the change then this could help you build a case

Firblog

Let me get this right, the employer wants the OP to lease them a room in his house for 220 odd days a year for free? They won't have to pay for rent/heating/broadband/electric or maintenance?



Sweet deal

rn

To be fair wfh is win win when you think of reduction in costs of going to work. Don't have the same commuting costs, transit times and clothes costs than if in the office. Maintaining the work life balance is biggest challenge.

Any payments above the 3.20 per day is likely to attract BIK and increased tax bill

Employer still has responsibility of health and safety and a large portion of costs of that, if you're working from home. So desk, chair etc.

These are unusual and ground breaking times for the office. And it's stressful adapting to the change for both employees and employers.

listermint

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

.

I leave my computers on 24/7, and most weekends would check emails on both days, and reply to a few too.

I’m only assuming they gave me 365 days worth as they never asked me to remove the weekend days and vacation/bank holiday days, but perhaps they calculated this on my behalf, it was just when the OH claimed, they asked her to calculate this...

Well that's just silly isn't it . You only use the things probably 40 per cent of their run times if even.

Jim Root

Has anyone got a desk & chair off their employer to WFH?

krissovo

Jim Root wrote: »

Has anyone got a desk & chair off their employer to WFH?

Most people I know myself included expense them back. At least then it fits the decor of your home. I have to sign that it meets health and safety which is the only caveat.

bucketybuck

Firblog wrote: »

Let me get this right, the employer wants the OP to lease them a room in his house for 220 odd days a year for free? They won't have to pay for rent/heating/broadband/electric or maintenance?



Sweet deal

I believe its the employee that would prefer to stay at home, but they also want the employer to pay them and provide extra equipment for it.

One of those "have cake and eat it" deals.

Connavar

bucketybuck wrote: »

I believe its the employee that would prefer to stay at home, but they also want the employer to pay them and provide extra equipment for it.

One of those "have cake and eat it" deals.

Ehh no, I dont want to work from home...
I have said a few times that I plan on leaving the company if I dont get an option to return to the office when things have opened up again

EDIT: Also, looks like my contract states that the company can change the place of work without compensation so looks like they have themselves covered (Thanks to those who pointed this out)

FFVII

Connavar wrote: »

Ehh no, I dont want to work from home...
I have said a few times that I plan on leaving the company if I dont get an option to return to the office when things have opened up again

EDIT: Also, looks like my contract states that the company can change the place of work without compensation so looks like they have themselves covered (Thanks to those who pointed this out)

You must have the crack in work all day.

Firblog

Connavar wrote: »

Also, looks like my contract states that the company can change the place of work without compensation so looks like they have themselves covered (Thanks to those who pointed this out)

Don't believe that they can change the place of work AND make you pay to provide it without covering your costs?

Lets face it at a minimum your heating and electric costs will most likely nearly double, spending an extra 40 hrs a week at home...

It cannot be legal that they can push their cost onto you.