Great British attitudes towards Northern Ireland?

All that fandango

Came across a post on Facebook slating Birmingham as a terrible city in the UK (never been there so cant comment). Reading through the comments though there was one which had me inspired to start a thread asking this....someone said take back Northern Ireland and quite a few likes to that too.

Do the British see NI as part of them, same as Wales and Scotland, or is NI just seen as "oh yeah, them too". Are they proud to have NI belong to them?

Interested to know thoughts and opinions.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Most of them know as much about Ireland as a whole as they do about Paraguay or Indonesia.

All that fandango

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote:

Most of them know as much about Ireland as a whole as they do about Paraguay or Indonesia.

I thought as much.

Paul_Crosby

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICEt7Q5E43w

Edgware

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Most of them know as much about Ireland as a whole as they do about Paraguay or Indonesia.

That would apply to any part of the U.K. Try asking someone from Essex about Scotland/ Northumberland. I have no doubt they would offload the Six Counties in the morning if they could

ancapailldorcha

All that fandango wrote: »

Came across a post on Facebook slating Birmingham as a terrible city in the UK (never been there so cant comment). Reading through the comments though there was one which had me inspired to start a thread asking this....someone said take back Northern Ireland and quite a few likes to that too.

Do the British see NI as part of them, same as Wales and Scotland, or is NI just seen as "oh yeah, them too". Are they proud to have NI belong to them?

Interested to know thoughts and opinions.

Your average Brit doesn't care one whit about NI. Fiscal conservatives see it as a burden while many liberals and the left would probably see it rejoin the republic. True unionists on the mainland have taken a beating as voters here would prefer to have Brexit.

A lot of people here in fairness are happy to ask questions and learn about it but it's not something they seem to be educated about. Most people's knowledge about it seems to be that a lot of people died there in the latter half of the twentieth century.

mikemac2

"Who are the DUP" was one of the top google searches for a few days after Teresa May did that deal

Entirely understandable, the same would happen if Plaid Cymru held the balance of power

deaddonkey15

I’ve previously asked an English friend of mine if he felt any affiliation with the people of Northern Ireland as fellow British and he said no and that he just considered them Irish. I reckon that attitude is quite common throughout the UK.

Paul_Crosby

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I’ve previously asked an English friend of mine if he felt any affiliation with the people of Northern Ireland as fellow British and he said no and that he just considered them Irish. I reckon that attitude is quite common throughout the UK.

When loyalists go to England they get quite taken aback at being called a paddy

Del2005

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I’ve previously asked an English friend of mine if he felt any affiliation with the people of Northern Ireland as fellow British and he said no and that he just considered them Irish. I reckon that attitude is quite common throughout the UK.

It's the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The people in Northern Ireland are not British no matter how much the unionists want to be.

Paul_Crosby

Del2005 wrote: »

It's the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The people in Northern Ireland are not British no matter how much the unionists want to be.

Most of the sensible protestants consider themselves as both, they know what island they are from even if they have British identity, so they have no shame in being called, or calling themselves Irish, even if they also identify as British

Carl Frampton for example

shenanagans

The Brits would hand it back in a heart beat. Costs them a fortune it keep NI afloat. Only problem is we can't afford it. This pandemic won't help the cause for a referendum either.........we're more in debt than ever!!

ancapailldorcha

Nice to have some data:

https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1253236954742820865?s=21

Edgware

Maybe we could have one to get opinions of people on both sides of the Border.

Hamsterchops

Edgware wrote: »

That would apply to any part of the U.K. Try asking someone from Essex about Scotland/ Northumberland.

Nail on the head, the UK is made up of four main countries/regions, so ask somebody from Glasgow about some in-depth knowledge of Wales, or what about asking somebody from Cornwall about the workings of the Scottish parliament. Some of the most British people live in Northern Ireland.

holyhead

It must be terrifying being a Unionist in the North. It's my understanding that the population gap between Catholics and Protestants is closing. Unless they've buried their heads in the sand they know full well that they are tolerated by the UK Govt. As has been said people in mainland Britain don't know a lot about the North. The only possible thing that might keep the UK Govt hanging in is a reluctance to see a further diminution of the empire. Obviously though if demographics continue as they are going they're may be a referendum triggered within the North.

shenanagans

holyhead wrote: »

It must be terrifying being a Unionist in the North. It's my understanding that the population gap between Catholics and Protestants is closing. Unless they've buried their heads in the sand they know full well that they are tolerated by the UK Govt. As has been said people in mainland Britain don't know a lot about the North. The only possible thing that might keep the UK Govt hanging in is a reluctance to see a further diminution of the empire. Obviously though if demographics continue as they are going they're may be a referendum triggered within the North.

You're spot on. Catholics will out number protestants before long. But do all Catholics want a united Ireland or are many happy with that status quo??

And would a referendum pass in the South??? I doubt it.

LoughNeagh2017

The English aren't as bad as the Scots. I dislike the English as a national identity but that doesn't mean I hate every English human. They have a sense of ownership over Ulster yet if Paddy went over to England and claimed that as him homeland that would be a different story. Paddy from Derry will be viewed as a foreigner yet they claim that Ulster is a home nation. I want nothing to do with the whole thing, it was just a curse to be born into post plantation Ulster, simple as that.

ancapailldorcha

holyhead wrote: »

It must be terrifying being a Unionist in the North. It's my understanding that the population gap between Catholics and Protestants is closing. Unless they've buried their heads in the sand they know full well that they are tolerated by the UK Govt. As has been said people in mainland Britain don't know a lot about the North. The only possible thing that might keep the UK Govt hanging in is a reluctance to see a further diminution of the empire. Obviously though if demographics continue as they are going they're may be a referendum triggered within the North.

They've been burying their heads in the sand for decades now. They had absolutely everything. A huge European market to sell into, subsidies and handouts from both London and Brussels and control of Northern Ireland for decades.

They campaigned for Brexit out of simple ideological stupidity. They've done this to themselves so they can reap what they've sown.

shenanagans

shenanagans wrote: »

You're spot on. Catholics will out number protestants before long. But do all Catholics want a united Ireland or are many happy with that status quo??

And would a referendum pass in the South??? I doubt it.

A bad run at this coronavirus could tip.balance aswell.....iirc the unionist population is top heavy age wise and falls away drastically u65



A referendum will pass in south imo,by well over 70%,how can anyone argue againest it,with the way english have carried on surronding coronavirus??

They should have no say in our island ever again,

Edgware

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A bad run at this coronavirus could tip.balance aswell.....iirc the unionist population is top heavy age wise and falls away drastically u65



A referendum will pass in south imo,by well over 70%,how can anyone argue againest it,with the way english have carried on surronding coronavirus??

They should have no say in our island ever again,

When the South starts looking at the cost they might be slow enough to vote yes.
Its just not a matter of a border poll. I do believe with proper economic management that we could make the island work but only with a very significant majority across the the community in favour of a united Ireland. Anyone who believes that 50% plus 1 will work is not in the real world. We would be back to 1922

munsterlegend

Edgware wrote: »

When the South starts looking at the cost they might be slow enough to vote yes.
Its just not a matter of a border poll. I do believe with proper economic management that we could make the island work but only with a very significant majority across the the community in favour of a united Ireland. Anyone who believes that 50% plus 1 will work is not in the real world. We would be back to 1922

I don’t think we would be back to 1922. Intolerance of terrorist acts and increased security surveillance would make such attacks very difficult. It’s not like we would be dealing with suicide attacks either.

shenanagans

Deleted User wrote: »

A bad run at this coronavirus could tip.balance aswell.....iirc the unionist population is top heavy age wise and falls away drastically u65



A referendum will pass in south imo,by well over 70%,how can anyone argue againest it,with the way english have carried on surronding coronavirus??

They should have no say in our island ever again,

I don't know where you're pull 70% from ??? I can't see that at all. The budget is the issue.....it will cost us a fortune to take on the North. Economically the North could be turned around but that would take a long time particularly if there's a significant % against unification up there.

Britian would have to agree to subsidise the North for years after any reunification to sway residents in the South to pass such a referendum. IMO.

This crisis at present won't help either.

Hamsterchops

What would be the benefit of Northern Ireland leaving the UK and joining the ROI?

What would be he point of Northern Ireland replacing London with Dublin as their Capital City?

What would be the advantage of becoming part of a United island over being in the United Kingdom?

What would be the point of being ruled by Brussels (via Dublin), as opposed to having devolved power from London.....

Edgware

munsterlegend wrote: »

I don’t think we would be back to 1922. Intolerance of terrorist acts and increased security surveillance would make such attacks very difficult. It’s not like we would be dealing with suicide attacks either.

The Provisional IRA kept a terrorist campaign going for 25 years with minimal support.
There are thousands of Loyalists who will never agree to a United Ireland. In such circumstances we would have massive security bills and dont expect Britain to pay

Hamsterchops

Hamsterchops wrote: »

What would be the benefit of Northern Ireland leaving the UK and joining the ROI?

What would be he point of Northern Ireland replacing London with Dublin as their Capital City?

Shout would be the advantage of becoming part of a United island over being in the United Kingdom?

What would be the point of being ruled by Brussels (via Dublin), as opposed to having devolved power from London.....

Why not have belfast as capital?


Its likely in a utd ireland unionists would likely hold balance of power after each election (a pyrrhic victory for shinnerz there ).....they would be disporportiontely represented amoung irish political circles due to the stv system


Devolved power in stormont deosnt work,dup have seen to that,its a waste of everyones time pretending it deos

Junkyard Tom

Sinn Fein should place full page adverts in English papers telling the public that they're sending €200,000,000 a week to northern Ireland.

It doesn't even really need to be accurate - just get the English pissed-off about sending their money to the Irish (as they'd see it).

shenanagans

Hamsterchops wrote: »

What would be the benefit of Northern Ireland leaving the UK and joining the ROI?

What would be he point of Northern Ireland replacing London with Dublin as their Capital City?

What would be the advantage of becoming part of a United island over being in the United Kingdom?

What would be the point of being ruled by Brussels (via Dublin), as opposed to having devolved power from London.....

It's a cultural thing rather than a matter of being in a better position. There are many up North that identify as Irish and feel the North is part of Ireland and for many particularly SF supporters they take a drop in lifestyle to finally have a unified Ireland.

shenanagans

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Sinn Fein should place full page adverts in English papers telling the public that they're sending €200,000,000 a week to northern Ireland.

It doesn't even really need to be accurate - just get the English pissed-off about sending their money to the Irish (as they'd see it).

It's irrelevant how the English feel... My understanding is that if there's evidence that a majority up North would favour reunification then a referendum must be triggered.... it's part of the Good Friday Agreement.

It's about momentum in Ireland ..... North and South.

Edgware

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Sinn Fein should place full page adverts in English papers telling the public that they're sending €200,000,000 a week to northern Ireland.

It doesn't even really need to be accurate - just get the English pissed-off about sending their money to the Irish (as they'd see it).

The Scottish and Welsh pay taxes too

Junkyard Tom

Edgware wrote: »

The Scottish and Welsh pay taxes too

They'd have a better understanding. I'd actually target the south of England Tory voter if I was trying to influence public opinion.

munsterlegend

Edgware wrote: »

The Provisional IRA kept a terrorist campaign going for 25 years with minimal support.
There are thousands of Loyalists who will never agree to a United Ireland. In such circumstances we would have massive security bills and dont expect Britain to pay

They did but it was a different era in many ways. I think 9/11 change everything for such attacks in the western world. Eta in Spain went the same way as the IRA. Phone technology and other measures can track almost everyone. Yes there could be trouble but nothing like what was happening in the 70’s and 80’s.

munsterlegend

shenanagans wrote: »

It's irrelevant how the English feel... My understanding is that if there's evidence that a majority up North would favour reunification then a referendum must be triggered.... it's part of the Good Friday Agreement.

It's about momentum in Ireland ..... North and South.

The tories are essentially an English party and look like being in power for the foreseeable. Pressure on a Secretary of State to call such a poll would be accentuated if the English wanted rid.

Of course no such poll would be called unless the Irish govt were not also on board.

Junkyard Tom

Edgware wrote: »

There are thousands of Loyalists..

What would they be fighting for exactly if they started shooting innocent Catholics again?

shenanagans

munsterlegend wrote: »

The tories are essentially an English party and look like being in power for the foreseeable. Pressure on a Secretary of State to call such a poll would be accentuated if the English wanted rid.

Of course no such poll would be called unless the Irish govt were not also on board.

The GFA has a specific criteria for when a referendum would be called.

The Secretary of State is under an obligation to institute a referendum if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would support a united Ireland.

FrancieBrady

shenanagans wrote: »

It's irrelevant how the English feel...

It's not. Read the YouGov doc above. It was always thought by government there that a border poll would be unpopular with the British people...hence they never looked at calling one. If a Tory government think that most in Britain would support the calling of a poll that will feed into a decision.

shenanagans

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's not. Read the YouGov doc above. It was always thought by government there that a border poll would be unpopular with the British people...hence they never looked at calling one. If a Tory government think that most in Britain would support the calling of a poll that will feed into a decision.

If a referendum was called who votes all Britain or just Northern Ireland?

munsterlegend

shenanagans wrote: »

The GFA has a specific criteria for when a referendum would be called.

The Secretary of State is under an obligation to institute a referendum if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would support a united Ireland.

Do you honestly think the Secretary of State would call such a poll without consulting the Dublin govt and getting their consent? It’s not in the agreement but it goes without saying.

munsterlegend

shenanagans wrote: »

If a referendum was called who votes all Britain or just Northern Ireland?

Just the north. Same as Scotland.

FrancieBrady

shenanagans wrote: »

If a referendum was called who votes all Britain or just Northern Ireland?

Northern Ireland and Ireland.

shenanagans

munsterlegend wrote: »

Do you honestly think the Secretary of State would call such a poll without consulting the Dublin govt and getting their consent? It’s not in the agreement but it goes without saying.

They all signed up to GFA.....so could they object if the evidence was there to support triggering a referendum.

I don't know....but I can't see how they could really stop it or object have signed up to this agreement.???

shenanagans

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Northern Ireland and Ireland.

And if it passed (not that I think it would).....even if the rest of Britain didn't agree could London stop it or object having agreed to GFA and referendum etc.

lawred2

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Nice to have some data:

https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1253236954742820865?s=21

that headline excluded the 11% who'd be delighted to see the back of NI.

RobMc59

shenanagans wrote: »

It's a cultural thing rather than a matter of being in a better position. There are many up North that identify as Irish and feel the North is part of Ireland and for many particularly SF supporters they take a drop in lifestyle to finally have a unified Ireland.

Maybe the SF supporters would take a drop in lifestyle but how many of the rest of NI would be up for a drop in lifestyle or more taxes?

FrancieBrady

munsterlegend wrote: »

Do you honestly think the Secretary of State would call such a poll without consulting the Dublin govt and getting their consent? It’s not in the agreement but it goes without saying.

The only time a Tory SoS will call a poll is when it is politically expedient/advantageous to do it. What the SoS believes about the possibility of it passing will not factor.
Yes, I agree they will consult if relations are good but if they were to fester over Brexit, who knows.
In my opinion the British tacitly or emotionally withdrew when they signed the GFA so it will be a politically expedient decision when it comes.

lawred2

shenanagans wrote: »

It's a cultural thing rather than a matter of being in a better position. There are many up North that identify as Irish and feel the North is part of Ireland and for many particularly SF supporters they take a drop in lifestyle to finally have a unified Ireland.

a drop in lifestyle?

shenanagans

RobMc59 wrote: »

Maybe the SF supporters would take a drop in lifestyle but how many of the rest of NI would be up for a drop in lifestyle or more taxes?

Totally. I think support for a unified Ireland is overestimated. North and South

FrancieBrady

shenanagans wrote: »

And if it passed (not that I think it would).....even if the rest of Britain didn't agree could London stop it or object having agreed to GFA and referendum etc.

They would have to break the GFA to stop it. They have guaranteed to effect it's passage through Government, however long that takes (ála Brexit for example).

RobMc59

LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »

The English aren't as bad as the Scots. I dislike the English as a national identity but that doesn't mean I hate every English human. They have a sense of ownership over Ulster yet if Paddy went over to England and claimed that as him homeland that would be a different story. Paddy from Derry will be viewed as a foreigner yet they claim that Ulster is a home nation. I want nothing to do with the whole thing, it was just a curse to be born into post plantation Ulster, simple as that.

Whichever home nation you`re from,the others are annoying (English annoy the Scots and vise versa, the Welsh annoy everyone and NI are always arguing amongst themselves)but that does`nt mean we don`t want to stay together.

shenanagans

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The only time a Tory SoS will call a poll is when it is politically expedient/advantageous to do it. What the SoS believes about the possibility of it passing will not factor.
Yes, I agree they will consult if relations are good but if they were to fester over Brexit, who knows.
In my opinion the British tacitly or emotionally withdrew when they signed the GFA so it will be a politically expedient decision when it comes.

Well in fairness it seems to be in the control of the SoS......I mean what evidence is sufficient..... who's to say?. Just because population demographics are changing doesn't mean all Catholics want out of UK.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

Whichever home nation you`re from,the others are annoying (English annoy the Scots and vise versa, the Welsh annoy everyone and NI are always arguing amongst themselves)but that does`nt mean we don`t want to stay together.

I don't see your point. Some annoyance about accents or whatever won't break up the union.

The biggest electoral decision being forced through despite half of the home nations voting against it will be what tears the union apart. Nothing makes one question a relationship as effectively as being told they don't matter. No consensus has been sought and no attempt to allay fears has been made. Whatever the Tory right wants, it gets.

Before you respond with 52% or whatever, that isn't my point. My point is that if you want to keep the union then you need to make sure each member feels valued. Regional assemblies and devolved powers can help with this but ultimately forcing upon them something they don't want isn't viable if the British public cares about the union which it patently does not.