Wicklow fires and the burning of our uplands

Thelonious Monk

https://twitter.com/DeptAHG/status/1251290439010996230

Acres and acres of wildlife has been wiped out in recent days because of illegal fires started by farmers. This has been going on throughout the country, including Killarney national parks. These fires burn gorse and other habitat on our uplands so that sheep can graze there afterwards.
With Dept AHG coming out with statements like

With hundreds of hectares destroyed there are renewed calls for the public to stop illegal burning

the public... I thought it was only travellers who had this kind of anonymity and protection, farmers too it seems.

Our uplands are mostly bare of trees because of this carry on, unless it's a sitka tree farm, determent to the environment. With the biodiversity crisis in Ireland right now, we should really be cracking down hard on this.
Has anyone witnessed these fires?

Muahahaha

There seems to be about four different state agencies involved and they're all just asking farmers not to start fires, it doesnt seem like they really want to catch them or they would have done so by now. Same fires in the same places year after year except this time with the lockdown they cant blame smokers throwing butts out the car window or people having BBQs like they have in the past.

blanch152

Muahahaha wrote: »

There seems to be about four different state agencies involved and they're all just asking farmers not to start fires, it doesnt seem like they really want to catch them or they would have done so by now. Same fires in the same places year after year except this time with the lockdown they cant blame smokers throwing butts out the car window or people having BBQs like they have in the past.

Yeah, always the fault of the state, not the personal responsibility of those who start the fires.

An Ri rua

I reported a similar fire on Slieve Bloom to Gardaí in Tullamore about 15 years ago. I'd driven through the area that was on fire, oblivious to it til it was on top of me, both sides of the road.
The Guard on duty said it was nothing to do with them....

Ps watch s student or even an RTE cameraman get batoned by a thug Garda. But a farmer illegally blocking a city centre road and threatening a Garda barricade line with s revving tractor? No chance.

AAAAAAAAA

Seems unbelievably easy to police, just fine any farmers that have these fires on their land and you'll discover they simply won't occur.

Ken.

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

Seems unbelievably easy to police, just fine any farmers that have these fires on their land and you'll discover they simply won't occur.

I'd go further and confiscate each and every sheep grazing the land. Fücking ruin the pr!cks.

irishproduce

What is the purpose of burning these lands?
Genuine question

Cookie_Monster

irishproduce wrote: »

What is the purpose of burning these lands?
Genuine question

burning off "undesirable" plants so more grass can grow for grazing

Tenzor07

Ken. wrote: »

I'd go further and confiscate each and every sheep grazing the land. Fücking ruin the pr!cks.

Don't even have to go through that trouble, just take the names of any farmer in the area of the fires as they would be on a register to receive EU subsidies for raising Sheep and cut all payouts either permanently or for a period of 3 months depending on the levels of destruction the fires they start cause.

That will quickly address this issue.

shaveAbullock

People are coming up with solutions but you need to watch the report on RTE.

Anchorites do not wish to punish the people responsible for these fire. A request to refrain from starting fires is as far as it will ever go.

Ken.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Don't even have to go through that trouble, just take the names of any farmer in the area of the fires as they would be on a register to receive EU subsidies for raising Sheep and cut all payouts either permanently or for a period of 3 months depending on the levels of destruction the fires they start cause.

That will quickly address this issue.

I'll bow to your superior knowledge. I know fück all about farm subsidies and stuff like that.

Charlie19

How could you prove who started the fires without actually catching them? It be near impossible to monitor this.

Tenzor07

Charlie19 wrote: »

How could you prove who started the fires without actually catching them? It be near impossible to monitor this.

I've seen the Gardai using helicopters to monitor the Covid restrictions around Coillte recreational sites so i'm sure could be used to monitor the uplands.

When you think about the costs of firecrews, helicopters, Gardai not to mention the risk to life these Wicklow farmers cos the state, deploying drones and or helicopters to catch them lighting the fires would be better for everyone....

Muahahaha

blanch152 wrote: »

Yeah, always the fault of the state, not the personal responsibility of those who start the fires.

What kind of rubbish is that blanch, its like saying criminals are going to take personal responsibility for committing their crimes :rolleyes: Welcome to the real world, you obviously didnt see the news report with several state agencies 'pleading' with farmers not to light fires yet they continue to do it year in, year out in the same locations at the exact same time of year.

Anyway I would have thought that a big supporter of the Green Party like yourself would be hopping up and down mad at the environmental destruction of wildlife habitat that has been caused here. You dont seem concerned about that at all for some reason, strange that.

shaveAbullock

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I've seen the Gardai using helicopters to monitor the Covid restrictions around Coillte recreational sites so i'm sure could be used to monitor the uplands.

When you think about the costs of firecrews, helicopters, Gardai not to mention the risk to life these Wicklow farmers cos the state, deploying drones and or helicopters to catch them lighting the fires would be better for everyone....

Has there been any indication the Gardai want to catch the people who start these fires?

tabby aspreme

The land where the fires are burning is not owned by individual farmers, it is owned by the state and farmers have grazing right's on it , also known as commonage. The system of burning the vegetation to facilitate new growth has been going on for generations, if you stop it completely you could end up with a scenario like the Australian bush fires, where years of dried undergrowth burn uncontrollably

Muahahaha

Charlie19 wrote: »

How could you prove who started the fires without actually catching them? It be near impossible to monitor this.

Not easy but not impossible either if the will to do it was there. Wicklow County Council have been very successful at prosecuting people illegally dumping rubbish in the mountains in the dead of night. That is difficult to catch but they have done it by supplying their litter warders with mobile CCTV and catching them red handed in the act.

In the case of people setting fires it should be easier because they know exactly the locations where it is going to happen and they know exactly who is farming on these lands. But the will just is not there, instead agencies responsible pussyfoot around the issue and then throw their hands up in the air when the fires start year after year. Its a ridiculous situation when a small bunch of farmers are allowed to burn our national parks with impunity year after year without any enforcement on them.

Tenzor07

shaveAbullock wrote: »

Has there been any indication the Gardai want to catch the people who start these fires?

I don't think so, with the increase in Gardai in the Wicklow uplands who are turning back people who don't live there, one would hope they would be able to apprehend the farmers setting the fires, but I don't recall seeing anything in the news..

Tenzor07

tabby aspreme wrote: »

The land where the fires are burning is not owned by individual farmers, it is owned by the state and farmers have grazing right's on it , also known as commonage. The system of burning the vegetation to facilitate new growth has been going on for generations, if you stop it completely you could end up with a scenario like the Australian bush fires, where years of dried undergrowth burn uncontrollably

I don't think that's correct at all.

These areas are SAC, National parks and if anyone should be trying to prevent/control any wildfires it's the Park rangers.

You don't have to be an expert to see that farmers are clearing gorse and destroying natural habitats in order to clear land for sheep grazing.
Sheep farming is also responsible for a lot of erosion in the hills.

tabby aspreme

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I don't think that's correct at all.

These areas are SAC, National parks and if anyone should be trying to prevent/control any wildfires it's the Park rangers.

You don't have to be an expert to see that farmers are clearing gorse and destroying natural habitats in order to clear land for sheep grazing.
Sheep farming is also responsible for a lot of erosion in the hills.

Which bit of my post is incorrect

shaveAbullock

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I don't think so, with the increase in Gardai in the Wicklow uplands who are turning back people who don't live there, one would hope they would be able to apprehend the farmers setting the fires, but I don't recall seeing anything in the news..

If the Gardai do not want to catch them then they are free to start the fires if they wish to. I don't really know what more could be said about the situation.

Tenzor07

This bit.

tabby aspreme wrote: »

system of burning the vegetation to facilitate new growth

the implication of your post is that the farmers have the rights to burn the land.

Muahahaha

tabby aspreme wrote: »

The land where the fires are burning is not owned by individual farmers, it is owned by the state and farmers have grazing right's on it , also known as commonage. The system of burning the vegetation to facilitate new growth has been going on for generations, if you stop it completely you could end up with a scenario like the Australian bush fires, where years of dried undergrowth burn uncontrollably

Thats exactly it, it is public land they are burning on, often part of our national parks like Killarney and Wicklow. Farmers are destroying the habitats and feeding ground of loads of wildlife year after year all so their sheep can have more grass to graze on

Controlled burning should only take place every few years as needed and be done by the Irish Parks and Wildlife Service with overview from the Environmental Protection Agency, Coilite and the local Chief Fire Officer. All of those agencies and the Gardai have responsibility to ensure that these illegal fires dont happen but instead they are sitting on their hands year after year while issuing media appeals pleading for farmers not to do it. And on it goes....

tabby aspreme

Tenzor07 wrote: »

This bit.



the implication of your post is that the farmers have the rights to burn the land.

I never said they have rights to burn the land, I said they have rights to graze it

Muahahaha

Tenzor07 wrote: »

This bit.



the implication of your post is that the farmers have the rights to burn the land.

As tabby said they dont. The only people permitted to carry out controlled fires is the EPA and the Irish Parks and Wildlife Service, its not for farmers to decide when to burn because they want more usable land, publically owned land at that.

Also when farmers do it it is not a controlled fire with precautions taken and the fire brigade present. They set it and get out of there. Only a matter of time before the wind switches direction on these fires and peoples houses are put in danger.

On top of that these farmers did it at a time when they knew our emergency services were totally stretched due to the pandemic. Yet they still did it, its scumbag behaviour of the highest order. They couldnt give a dam about anyone else and they definitely couldnt give a dam about the acres and acres of wildlife habitats that they have just destroyed for their own selfish reasons.

tabby aspreme

There is a good article in the Irish Times by Michael Viney "when sheep leave the hills, what will become of our uplands" from April 2017

Tenzor07

Muahahaha wrote: »

On top of that these farmers did it at a time when they knew our emergency services were totally stretched due to the pandemic. Yet they still did it, its scumbag behaviour of the highest order. They couldnt give a dam about anyone else and they definitely couldnt give a dam about the acres and acres of wildlife habitats that they have just destroyed for their own selfish reasons.

Like my point earlier, the only way to stop them doing this is for the authorities to investigate and prosecute, as well as EU subsidies being cut for sheep farming which is quite destructive to the environment of the uplands.

shaveAbullock

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Like my point earlier, the only way to stop them doing this is for the authorities to investigate and prosecute, as well as EU subsidies being cut for sheep farming which is quite destructive to the environment of the uplands.

There is absolutely no desire from the authorities to do this so we can exclude that solution.

tabby aspreme

There is over 400,000 hectares of grazing commonage in the country, very hard to police an area that size.

Is it the exact same ground that is burned each year, or do these lads have a rotational system going.

0lddog

Some estimate that the CO2 emissions of burning one hectare is equivalent to the yearly average CO2 of 6000 cars

tabby aspreme

tabby aspreme wrote: »

The land where the fires are burning is not owned by individual farmers, it is owned by the state and farmers have grazing right's on it , also known as commonage. The system of burning the vegetation to facilitate new growth has been going on for generations, if you stop it completely you could end up with a scenario like the Australian bush fires, where years of dried undergrowth burn uncontrollably

Commonage and grazing rights are different things.

In commonage people own shares of land.
Common land might look open and free for all but it isn't public land.

My father owns for example 2/7 of 1/3 of an acre in common with others.

Tenzor07

tabby aspreme wrote: »

There is over 400,000 hectares of grazing commonage in the country, very hard to police an area that size.
Is it the exact same ground that is burned each year, or do these lads have a rotational system going.

The destruction to the environment is that bad so only hard measures will work, if there's a collective involved in setting the fires then maybe a suspension of all payments to upland sheep farmers for the summer period may be in order.

Dakota Dan

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://twitter.com/DeptAHG/status/1251290439010996230

Acres and acres of wildlife has been wiped out in recent days because of illegal fires started by farmers. This has been going on throughout the country, including Killarney national parks. These fires burn gorse and other habitat on our uplands so that sheep can graze there afterwards.
With Dept AHG coming out with statements like



the public... I thought it was only travellers who had this kind of anonymity and protection, farmers too it seems.

Our uplands are mostly bare of trees because of this carry on, unless it's a sitka tree farm, determent to the environment. With the biodiversity crisis in Ireland right now, we should really be cracking down hard on this.
Has anyone witnessed these fires?

Maybe it was climate change

Dakota Dan

Ken. wrote: »

I'll bow to your superior knowledge. I know fück all about farm subsidies and stuff like that.

It's the reason you can buy cheap food.

TheChizler

0lddog wrote: »

Some estimate that the CO2 emissions of burning one hectare is equivalent to the yearly average CO2 of 6000 cars

It's more or less 0 net emissions though because it's just absorbed again the following year by the new growth. The other by products aren't great though.

Thelonious Monk

Dakota Dan wrote: »

It's the reason you can buy cheap food.

Surprise surprise the farmer supports these fires being lit

shaveAbullock

How much extra would I have to pay for some mutton or lamb in order for that industry to be financially viable without these fires?

Tenzor07

shaveAbullock wrote: »

How much extra would I have to pay for some mutton or lamb in order for that industry to be financially viable without these fires?

€4.20

0lddog

TheChizler wrote: »

It's more or less 0 net emissions though because it's just absorbed again the following year by the new growth. The other by products aren't great though.

Kind of short on ambition on the carbon capture front there Chiz.

Better to get animals to trample the vegetation and dung it.

Lots of examples of this around the world

Thelonious Monk

shaveAbullock wrote: »

How much extra would I have to pay for some mutton or lamb in order for that industry to be financially viable without these fires?

Who cares, they're setting national parks on fire, are they national parks or money making farms? We've feck all national parks as is and they let people burn them and make money out of them.

shaveAbullock

Tenzor07 wrote: »

€4.20

Hmm, I think I'm ok with the wildfires in that case.

Buford T. Justice XIX

shaveAbullock wrote: »

How much extra would I have to pay for some mutton or lamb in order for that industry to be financially viable without these fires?

The industry is viable at the consumer price as it is.

The problem is with the distorted distribution of that final price to the different sectors of the supply chain leading up to the final product.

BanditLuke

shaveAbullock wrote: »

People are coming up with solutions but you need to watch the report on RTE.

Anchorites do not wish to punish the people responsible for these fire. A request to refrain from starting fires is as far as it will ever go.

Farmers lobby is ridiculously powerful.

tabby aspreme

BanditLuke wrote: »

Farmers lobby is ridiculously powerful.

Not any more, MII, Meat Industry Ireland, are the ones who have the government ear

MrMusician18

shaveAbullock wrote: »

People are coming up with solutions but you need to watch the report on RTE.

Anchorites do not wish to punish the people responsible for these fire. A request to refrain from starting fires is as far as it will ever go.

There is absolutely no point in watching reports on RTE for the truth about these burnings because they NEVER say who is lighting them or why.

During more normal times, due to the lack of factual reporting I had assumed that most of these were accidental or arsonists/vandals. The real unreported truth is that it's farmers on the commonage setting these gorse fires to clear land.

If be going so far to say that any land that gets burned without permit, it should be prohibited for sheep to graze on it for 50 years.. And the farmers that open the commonage should pay the full cost of the fire service costs.

TheChizler

0lddog wrote: »

Kind of short on ambition on the carbon capture front there Chiz.

Better to get animals to trample the vegetation and dung it.

Lots of examples of this around the world

True but I didn't say there was no better way, its just not necessarily net CO2 release.

shaveAbullock

MrMusician18 wrote: »

If be going so far to say that any land that gets burned without permit, it should be prohibited for sheep to graze on it for 50 years.. And the farmers that open the commonage should pay the full cost of the fire service costs.

You can't impose fines and restrictions on someone who is innocent until proven guilty.

Clearly the Garda have been told not to investigate this, therefore there is no evidence. And no evidence for RTE to point the finger. Although I'm sure they have been told to avoid talking about the issue in the same way the Gardai have.

One would wonder at what level of the government have the Garda been instructed to not uphold the law?

Antares35

Farmers don't give a sh*t about the environment, animals, wildlife etc. They only care about money. Gorse fires happen our way all the time. Nothing is ever done about it. They seem to think they are above the law. F*ckers. The only way to get the message home is hit them where it hurts - financially. They won't though. Farmers seem to be some kind of protected class - demanding free money from the EU, subsidies, minimum prices for their goods rather than become competitive. Whinge, whinge, whinge. It's never ending.

shaveAbullock

Antares35 wrote: »

They seem to think they are above the law.

Is there anything to indicate this is an incorrect assumption?

EmptyTree

shaveAbullock wrote: »

How much extra would I have to pay for some mutton or lamb in order for that industry to be financially viable without these fires?

The cost of the fire service and air corp along with the other departments responding to these fires comes out of general taxation, so we're all paying for the industry to be financially viable one way or the other.

shaveAbullock

Do other emergency services not have the power to escalate this issue with the Garda?