Should there be a motor tax refund?

kerryjack

Pascal looking for motor insurance refund maybe he could start with a tax refund first. My insurance is about 350 for year my road tax 850 240 for 3 months.

Finance Minister Paschal Donohoe has added his voice to those calling for motor insurers to offer refunds to motorists.
There has been a dramatic drop in the numbers driving during the coronavirus pandemic.
American insurers are offering discounts and credits to motorists.
https://www.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/motorists-should-get-a-refund-donohoe-39137470.html

KevRossi

Have all the refunds you want. The shortfall in Revenue will be made up somewhere else. It's just shuffling paperwork really.

Even though I'd like a rebate, I oppose it for the above reasons.

Harry Palmr

Insurance is a better rebate for most of us (worth more)

bigroad

I will take a refund for the last ten years if he wants.

Salary Negotiator

We’ve 2 cars and declared 1 off road as tax was due at the beginning of April.

Do you not get a refund if declared off road when the car is already taxed?

Ubbquittious

OoooO Lordy OP you're in for a land when you see what kind of tax increases and austerity measures our overlords have up their sleeves for when this is all over. Better plan your emigration to some island in the carribean with few cases if you want to have any chance of escaping

kerryjack

Ubbquittious wrote: »

OoooO Lordy OP you're in for a land when you see what kind of tax increases and austerity measures our overlords have up their sleeves for when this is all over. Better plan your emigration to some island in the carribean with few cases if you want to have any chance of escaping

Well why go looking for insurance refund than pot calling kittle black comes to mind

macplaxton

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

Do you not get a refund if declared off road when the car is already taxed?

Not as far as I'm aware.

The reasons on the RF120 form are a joke. Should be like UK where when you make a SORN no reasons are required.

I just taxed a second car of mine at the start of March for a quarter (€200) but for various reasons haven't needed to use it a week into that. As it stands, I get no rebate. If it was the UK, I could have SORN'd it and got either the remaining whole months back or just SORN'd it online and have the DD mandate stopped.

Here I get stitched up unless it's stolen/scrapped/exported/not used BEFORE the disc starts/ill or injured/not in state/some error.

Some years back I lost a whole 10 months of a disc due to an accident damaged vehicle where I retained the salvaged and stored it off road, but didn't qualify for any of the reasons on the form. I've only ever bought a quarterly disc since.

siblers

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Insurance is a better rebate for most of us (worth more)

I wonder anything will happen in relation to this, one of our cars hasn't been driven since the lockdowm. The other is doing about 20kms a week. I'm paying €900 and only driving to the shop

Caquas

kerryjack wrote: »

Pascal looking for motor insurance refund maybe he could start with a tax refund first. My insurance is about 350 for year my road tax 850 240 for 3 months.

I doubt if anyone pointed out to Paschal the utter hypocrisy of pushing the insurance companies to give a rebate but doing nothing about motor tax. The government banned all driving except for essential journeys- a reasonable decision in the circumstances - so Paschal should take responsibility for the consequences

As I said many times on other threads, the widespread belief that motor tax is fair and equitable is an unexamined myth. It is simply another mechanism to extract money for government and the ever-increasing burden falls very heavily on some people, not just fat cats in Ferraris. A simple solution now would be to extend everyone’s tax disc for the duration of the shutdown e.g. if your tax expires on 1 September and we have a two month shutdown, then your tax will be valid to the end of October.

One result of this crisis is quite certain: even more tax. Many people right now are sitting at home planning to start a new business after the shutdown. I would wish them every success but in truth I pity them - they will be crushed by tax, insurance and red tape.

mikeecho

kerryjack wrote: »

Pascal looking for motor insurance refund maybe he could start with a tax refund first. My insurance is about 350 for year my road tax 850 240 for 3 months.

Not going to happen.
If it does, maybe they should increase the TV licence, because everyone's using their TV more.

kerryjack

mikeecho wrote: »

Not going to happen.
If it does, maybe they should increase the TV licence, because everyone's using their TV more.

All the road maintenance crews are laid off now on half pay, covid payment of 350 they could pass on that saving they should practice what they preach.

Voodoomelon

I'd rather defer any refunds now for the sake of increased charges across the board. Any meager savings now in both car, health and business insurance will be made up for in years of 30%/40%/50% hikes. Same goes for car tax and I just forked out €1809.

Isambard

i rather think more tax etc is likely rather than less. There will be a huge hole in the balance sheet after this, all those €350 a weeks will account for a couple of billion on their own.

turbocab

And people think the tax is bad now .Just wait for the greens to join the party .God help us

H8GHOTI

Agree with those saying an insurance rebate makes more sense. All our premiums are based on risk and that risk has gone way down now, with less cars on the road.
There must be a huge drop in claims, insurance companies are absolutely milking it.

Idbatterim

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I'd rather defer any refunds now for the sake of increased charges across the board. Any meager savings now in both car, health and business insurance will be made up for in years of 30%/40%/50% hikes. Same goes for car tax and I just forked out €1809.

Fair play paying out that lump at that rate, you'd want to be getting fair bit of use of the car to pay it. With my current usage, I couldn't justify it , I'd be declaring off road at that farcical rate that you and I pay ...

Caquas

H8GHOTI wrote: »

Agree with those saying an insurance rebate makes more sense. All our premiums are based on risk and that risk has gone way down now, with less cars on the road.
There must be a huge drop in claims, insurance companies are absolutely milking it.

No one is objecting to insurance refunds, we’re just saying the same logic applies to motor tax.

Realistically, we won’t get a tax refund because our government (the one we voted out and the one we’re about to get although no one voted for it) will never give up taxes, especially a tax on what the Greens regard as the root of all evil, the internal combustion engine.

Del2005

kerryjack wrote: »

All the road maintenance crews are laid off now on half pay, covid payment of 350 they could pass on that saving they should practice what they preach.

Motor tax doesn't pay for road maintenance, it's goes into a central fund some of which is then spent on maintaining the road.

Tzardine

Wouldnt mind seeing a rebate on my taxsaver ticket. Costs me €300 per month (after the tax benefit) and I cant use it at the moment.

Del2005

Caquas wrote: »

No one is objecting to insurance refunds, we’re just saying the same logic applies to motor tax.

Realistically, we won’t get a tax refund because our government (the one we voted out and the one we’re about to get although no one voted for it) will never give up taxes, especially a tax on what the Greens regard as the root of all evil, the internal combustion engine.

Going OT but nearly 50% of the population voted for the government we are about to get, how is that not what was voted for? If Sinn Féin has fielded more candidates we would have a different government and then we'd be really fecked.

Ger Roe

I saw some spokesperson for the insurance industry on the TV earlier this week saying that they will consider the refund request but will have to look at what other countries are doing first.

Why would that be, what factors tie our insurance market performance with others? If there was some sort of performance/operational association with other markets we would have had cheaper car insurance here for years.

Are we not our own independent market with specific and unique risk factors and performance ?- at least that is what we were told for years while we were arguing against being fleeced.

saabsaab

No point in bringing politics into this. Extra Carbon taxes are on the way whoever is in charge and a refund of motor tax would be appreciated.

H8GHOTI

Del2005 wrote: »

Motor tax doesn't pay for road maintenance, it's goes into a central fund some of which is then spent on maintaining the road.

Ya. Wherever it goes and whatever they spend it on, it’ll still get spent eventually anyway. Even if it was 100% road maintenance, they’d do it when the lockdown is over.

saabsaab

The current motor tax system(s) are deeply flawed. They say it's based on carbon emissions bands but in reality a lower emission car doing huge mileage is producing far more carbon that a medium emission's car doing moderate mileage. It's not based on ownership as you can declare off road and it's free.

Caquas

Del2005 wrote: »

Going OT but nearly 50% of the population voted for the government we are about to get, how is that not what was voted for? If Sinn Féin has fielded more candidates we would have a different government and then we'd be really fecked.

Not really OT. We won’t get the motor tax rebate that logic demands because we are getting a high tax government no one voted for.

No one proposed an FF/FG coalition because it would have been soundly rejected by the voters of both parties. They got a combined 43%, nowhere near the majority you imagine, so now they are enticing the smaller parties with a flimsy document filled with unfunded promises. Just imagine the catastrophe for any of those parties if they had campaigned in support of a FF/FG coalition

Somehow our media are barely reporting this. Nothing on RTEs 9 o’clock news or on radio at 1 o’clock. WalltoWall Covid-19. They are behaving as if this is just business as usual and you, like most people it seems, have bought into their nonsense. Rotating Taoiseach? Spare me!

Don’t get started on the cost of petrol. The market has collapsed and the stuff is being given away but you will barely see a difference at the pumps and it will get much worse if the Greens are in.

astrofool

saabsaab wrote: »

The current motor tax system(s) are deeply flawed. They say it's based on carbon emissions bands but in reality a lower emission car doing huge mileage is producing far more carbon that a medium emission's car doing moderate mileage. It's not based on ownership as you can declare off road and it's free.

The goal is for all the cars to be low emission, regardless of miles driven.

The VRT and motor taxes discourage high emitting cars, and the tax on fuel discourages low efficiency cars being driven a lot, which funnily enough, is exactly what tax was intended for (encouraging one behavior over another).

Idbatterim

Del2005 wrote: »

Going OT but nearly 50% of the population voted for the government we are about to get, how is that not what was voted for? If Sinn Féin has fielded more candidates we would have a different government and then we'd be really fecked.

Sf want to abolish the penalty for not taxing car for the year, would cost / save seventy million . I totally agree with it ...

Caquas

astrofool wrote: »

The goal is for all the cars to be low emission, regardless of miles driven.

The VRT and motor taxes discourage high emitting cars, and the tax on fuel discourages low efficiency cars being driven a lot, which funnily enough, is exactly what tax was intended for (encouraging one behavior over another).

Let’s be honest here: VRT discourages car ownership and tax on fuel discourages driving. The gradations don’t change that.

These taxes are not fair i.e. the burden does not fall on those best able to pay. As you say, the aim is target low efficiency cars being driven a lot so the burden falls e.g. on people who can’t afford to buy a new car and have to commute long distances because they can’t afford a home in the city.

The next government will need all the revenue it can squeeze out of us but let’s not pretend it’s a good thing.

Bass Reeves

saabsaab wrote: »

The current motor tax system(s) are deeply flawed. They say it's based on carbon emissions bands but in reality a lower emission car doing huge mileage is producing far more carbon that a medium emission's car doing moderate mileage. It's not based on ownership as you can declare off road and it's free.

We had this debate before it's not deeply flawed. It is there to discourage people from buying higher emissions cars.
We got rid of it before and it came from back. Just pay your tax and stop complaining

kirving

Bass Reeves wrote: »

We had this debate before it's not deeply flawed. It is there to discourage people from buying higher emissions cars.
We got rid of it before and it came from back. Just pay your tax and stop complaining

Not really, it's designed to do the following:

A) encourage people to buy new cars and stimulate our motor trade
encourage manufacturers to implement technology to score well on standarised emsissions tests

For a very long time, the dogs on the street knew that the quoted emissions figures had no basis in reality.

My retired father pays triple the motor tax I do, to do 1/10th the milage I do, in a car with a 30% smaller engine, 50% the power, and which is 12 years older. That is by no means fair or equitable.

Any considered reforms would likely hurt me financially, but the engineer in me far prefers that to the current situation of using science to justify what is pure economic policy.

Triangle

turbocab wrote: »

And people think the tax is bad now .Just wait for the greens to join the party .God help us

This line is getting old, you need to read the green policies before spouting nonsense. Your chip on your shoulder is blinding you.
In the latest election, they said they'd not REDUCE taxes and the carbon tax is instead to be a carbon dividend.

turbocab

Triangle wrote: »

This line is getting old, you need to read the green policies before spouting nonsense. Your chip on your shoulder is blinding you.
In the latest election, they said they'd not REDUCE taxes and the carbon tax is instead to be a carbon dividend.

old but true, not just taxes on fuel,we now have the dearest electricity in the EU,

Triangle

turbocab wrote: »

old but true, not just taxes on fuel,we now have the dearest electricity in the EU,

There has been many years since the greens were in government (as a minority) and can't be blamed for what's there now. There have been plenty of opportunities to change everything.
Furthermore, The energy prices are dictated by the CRU (edit: meant to be CER), not by government.
Lastly, If you look at a breakdown of where the cost comes from - €6 a month (renewable levy) doesn't change the cost that much and can't be blamed for the highest electricity in Europe. Maybe the fact that energy suppliers look for increases when oil goes up in price but never look for decreases when it dips could be more to blame.

kirving

Triangle wrote: »

There has been many years since the greens were in government (as a minority) and can't be blamed for what's there now.

They do still bear some responsibility for our

They were in government (as a minority, but with heavy influence on climate policy) when the current CO2 centric tax system, at the neglect of NOx, particulate matter, and other pollutants.

Triangle wrote: »

There have been plenty of opportunities to change everything.

Changing everything, implies scrapping half the vehicles in the country. Not a particularly green solution.

10 years ago: Petrol/C02 = Bad, Diesel = Good
Today: Diesel/NOx = Bad, Petrol = Good
10 years time: Battery disposals = Bad.

Green policy is not about elections, or economic measures as we repeat time and again in this country. A properly funded public transport system is what's needed, and then the car emissions will matter far less.

Isambard

i think it will be awful pity (but inevitable) that we'll be going back to crowded roads. If the great institutions were to continue with their staff working from home it could only be a good thing. Less traffic, less pollution, more free time etc.

Caquas

Bass Reeves wrote: »

We had this debate before it's not deeply flawed. It is there to discourage people from buying higher emissions cars.
We got rid of it before and it came from back. Just pay your tax and stop complaining

In Summary:

Shut up and pay up.

turbocab

Triangle wrote: »

There has been many years since the greens were in government (as a minority) and can't be blamed for what's there now. There have been plenty of opportunities to change everything.
Furthermore, The energy prices are dictated by the CRU (edit: meant to be CER), not by government.
Lastly, If you look at a breakdown of where the cost comes from - €6 a month (renewable levy) doesn't change the cost that much and can't be blamed for the highest electricity in Europe. Maybe the fact that energy suppliers look for increases when oil goes up in price but never look for decreases when it dips could be more to blame.

The greens made us all switch to diesel cars, when last in government,all they we worried about was the co2 emissions,they were oblivious to nitrogen oxide and other cancerous emissions from diesel ,Which was known for years before that ,

willbur

Whatever about tax refunds , I still have my car and my wife's car, both bought in the early 2004 with 1.8 cc engine,s and because of the crash in 2008 onwards I wasn't able to trade them so we have looked after them so it is costing us 1300 a year in road tax , but eco friendly because we looked after them always passed the NCT , we do about 8000 km jointly , where some pay 200 road tax yet do 25000 miles a year , I have allway believed that both Road tax and car insurance should be on the petrol and diesel and now on the Electric fast car charger,s , which in my opinion might make people be more eco minded and think whether there trips are absolutely necessary , which could bring about a reduction in the amount of vehicles on the road

saabsaab

Caquas wrote: »

In Summary:

Shut up and pay up.

Seems to be the message alright. No discussion wanted.

Del2005

willbur wrote: »

Whatever about tax refunds , I still have my car and my wife's car, both bought in the early 2004 with 1.8 cc engine,s and because of the crash in 2008 onwards I wasn't able to trade them so we have looked after them so it is costing us 1300 a year in road tax , but eco friendly because we looked after them always passed the NCT , we do about 8000 km jointly , where some pay 200 road tax yet do 25000 miles a year , I have allway believed that both Road tax and car insurance should be on the petrol and diesel and now on the Electric fast car charger,s , which in my opinion might make people be more eco minded and think whether there trips are absolutely necessary , which could bring about a reduction in the amount of vehicles on the road

To save €500 on annual motor tax you have to pay ~€5k VRT and keep the car for >10 years to recover the tax outlay. Where as you haven't had to pay any VRT for 14 years, while most people who buy new change every 2 to 4 years, and you only do 8k between yourself and your spouse and you think that you have paid more tax on your cars than someone who buys new and drives 25k a year!

Idbatterim

1.8 on old system rate if tax is palatable, the big savings, tend to come mostly from the larger engines ...

Still waters

willbur wrote: »

Whatever about tax refunds , I still have my car and my wife's car, both bought in the early 2004 with 1.8 cc engine,s and because of the crash in 2008 onwards I wasn't able to trade them so we have looked after them so it is costing us 1300 a year in road tax , but eco friendly because we looked after them always passed the NCT , we do about 8000 km jointly , where some pay 200 road tax yet do 25000 miles a year , I have allway believed that both Road tax and car insurance should be on the petrol and diesel and now on the Electric fast car charger,s , which in my opinion might make people be more eco minded and think whether there trips are absolutely necessary , which could bring about a reduction in the amount of vehicles on the road

You're probably saving money by staying the way you are at the moment, someone doing 25k a year in a newer low tax bracket car is paying much more than you in fuel tax, vrt and maybe insurance also because of more kilometres traveled

H8GHOTI

Isambard wrote: »

i think it will be awful pity (but inevitable) that we'll be going back to crowded roads. If the great institutions were to continue with their staff working from home it could only be a good thing. Less traffic, less pollution, more free time etc.

100%
I haven’t been in the office since early March. Lots of benefits, lack of sitting in traffic being top of the list. It has made no difference to my work.

You’d hope this has been an eye opener for companies. Government too should incentivise working from home when this is over. Not very hopeful though.

I wouldn’t mind doing say a 3/2 day split or something. If others did the same, the impact would be noticeable.

hoodie6029

With more than 50% of the national fleet in the CO2 tax system now what's the point of motor tax refunds? For 3 months most people will only be getting €50/60 back. People are more concerned that their NCT and licences are still valid.

TheBoyConor

willbur wrote: »

...........I have allway believed that both Road tax and car insurance should be on the petrol and diesel and now on the Electric fast car charger,s , which in my opinion might make people be more eco minded and think whether there trips are absolutely necessary , which could bring about a reduction in the amount of vehicles on the road

How on earth is that supposed to work that your insurance would be funded through taxes levied on fuel? How would they differentiate payment of different rates of cover? Would there be a pump at one rate for 3rd PF&T and then another pump for fully comprehensive? And a third pump for if you have windscreen and breakdown cover?
That idea is completely unworkable and stupid.

saabsaab

TheBoyConor wrote: »

How on earth is that supposed to work that your insurance would be funded through taxes levied on fuel? How would they differentiate payment of different rates of cover? Would there be a pump at one rate for 3rd PF&T and then another pump for fully comprehensive? And a third pump for if you have windscreen and breakdown cover?
That idea is completely unworkable and stupid.

Not true!


'Within New Zealand, the Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) provides nationwide no-fault personal injury insurance.[21] Injuries involving motor vehicles operating on public roads are covered by the Motor Vehicle Account, for which premiums are collected through levies on petrol and through vehicle licensing fees.[22']



Such a system could be operated here as basic cover. Higher cover could be paid for in excess for those who need it or have poor records. Of course it would be on all fuel pumps.

Henry Ford III

saabsaab wrote: »

Not true!


'Within New Zealand, the Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) provides nationwide no-fault personal injury insurance.[21] Injuries involving motor vehicles operating on public roads are covered by the Motor Vehicle Account, for which premiums are collected through levies on petrol and through vehicle licensing fees.[22']



Such a system could be operated here as basic cover. Higher cover could be paid for in excess for those who need it or have poor records. Of course it would be on all fuel pumps.

Ah stop for goodness sake.

Del2005

TheBoyConor wrote: »

How on earth is that supposed to work that your insurance would be funded through taxes levied on fuel? How would they differentiate payment of different rates of cover? Would there be a pump at one rate for 3rd PF&T and then another pump for fully comprehensive? And a third pump for if you have windscreen and breakdown cover?
That idea is completely unworkable and stupid.

You could just have 3rd party insurance paid from the fuel and then like Oz and NZ you pay extra for higher level of cover. But to be implemented we'd have to totally redesign our insurance system and injury awards system so it'll never happen.

raclle

Car tax due at the end of the month but since we're not allowed travel more than 2km shouldn't there be some sort of rebate for this?

saabsaab

raclle wrote: »

Car tax due at the end of the month but since we're not allowed travel more than 2km shouldn't there be some sort of rebate for this?

You can travel more than 2k if needed. The 2k is the max distance for exercise only.