Shane Ross wants travellers with cancelled flights to subsidies the Airlines

paddy19

Earlier this week it emerged that those rules were on the brink of being suspended as Minister for Transport Shane Ross considered allowing airlines and tour operators to issue vouchers instead of refunds when flights were cancelled, as part of a set of measures that he hopes will alleviate the financial pressures on companies, to protect jobs and businesses.


https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/travel/europe/coronavirus-ryanair-suspends-refunds-and-offers-passengers-vouchers-instead-1.4225203


Wow, great passengers are now asked to support airlines.
Nice one, interest free loan to poor Michael O'Leary, he needs a dig out.
I'm sure the poor AEG shareholders are also a deserving of my hard earned loot.



In its results for the 12 months to the end of December 2018, IAG - which owns Aer Lingus reported profit after tax and exceptional items of €2.9 billion, an increase of 11% on 2017.


Funny I don't remember sharing the profits in the good times.

un5byh7sqpd2x0

paddy19 wrote: »

Funny I don't remember sharing the profits in the good times.

You’re obviously not a shareholder in either so.

paddy19

Yes I'm not a shareholder and don't want to be one.

I'm also not interested in giving private companies an interest free loan which would effectively make me an
investor without the upsides like dividends or interest.

I bought a ticket not a piece of the action.

The Bishop Basher

paddy19 wrote: »

I bought a ticket not a piece of the action.

You didn’t lose a job in the aviation industry then.

Look we’re in unprecedented times. The rule book for most things has gone out the window. You and everyone else can scream for your money back but we’ll have no airline industry left if that happens.

Compromise may well be required.

FrStone

A name I never want to hear again. Absolutely ridiculous that Lord Ross is now trying to change an EU law.

The consumer shouldn't be expected to prop up private business.

Bass Reeves

FrStone wrote: »

A name I never want to hear again. Absolutely ridiculous that Lord Ross is now trying to change an EU law.

The consumer shouldn't be expected to prop up private business.

Grand airlines go bust and you get 2-3c/euro back

Jucifer

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

You didn’t lose a job in the aviation industry then.

Look we’re in unprecedented times. The rule book for most things has gone out the window. You and everyone else can scream for your money back but we’ll have no airline industry left if that happens.

Compromise may well be required.

I will be claiming my refund for flights but if they did offer a voucher that lasts 12 months or something I would gladly take it instead. What I am being offered is the “opportunity” to rebook but only between June and August this year. I don’t think that is fair given the uncertainty around when this will all be over. The flight is early May to one of the worst affected regions of Spain so it is likely to be cancelled. The accommodation already provided a full refund of deposits.

FrStone

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Grand airlines go bust and you get 2-3c/euro back

So be it!

A creditor, should be able to petition for a liquidator to be appointed if the debt can't be paid.

paddy19

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

You didn’t lose a job in the aviation industry then.

Look we’re in unprecedented times. The rule book for most things has gone out the window. You and everyone else can scream for your money back but we’ll have no airline industry left if that happens.

Compromise may well be required.

I'm not screaming. I'm asking a simple question. Why should I subsidise Michael O'Leary? Nothing against Michael but I think he'll be ok without my subsidy.

Why should random passengers who happened to travel during this period be asked to subsidise the airlines. It is an insane idea from a temporary minister who is no longer a TD.

If airlines need money, the first port of call are banks and hedge funds, the next is shareholders, the last port is government.

If the government or EU decides to subsidise Airlines so be it, I pay my taxes I'll pay my share but I see no logic in picking subset of the population and telling them they have to subsidise an airline.

I bought a ticket not a share!

johnire

Spot on! I agree 100%. I’m owed €2000 for flights from KLM and by hook or crook I’ll get it back. A voucher is of absolutely no benefit to me......I need my €2000 now.

paddy19 wrote: »

I'm not screaming. I'm asking a simple question. Why should I subsidise Michael O'Leary? Nothing against Michael but I think he'll be ok without my subsidy.

Why should random passengers who happened to travel during this period be asked to subsidise the airlines. It is an insane idea from a temporary minister who is no longer a TD.

If airlines need money, the first port of call are banks and hedge funds, the next is shareholders, the last port is government.

If the government or EU decides to subsidise Airlines so be it, I pay my taxes I'll pay my share but I see no logic in picking subset of the population and telling them they have to subsidise an airline.

I bought a ticket not a share!

The Bishop Basher

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

You didn’t lose a job in the aviation industry then.

Look we’re in unprecedented times. The rule book for most things has gone out the window. You and everyone else can scream for your money back but we’ll have no airline industry left if that happens.

Compromise may well be required.

No and most won't. Companies making billions in profits and if one goes, it's replaced. That's business. In entire industry collapsing is one thing but companies alone is on them.

I'm not a shareholder, manager or employee. It should not be on me to fund the company. Why don't the staff take vouchers instead of pay?

The Bishop Basher

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I'm not a shareholder, manager or employee. It should not be on me to fund the company. Why don't the staff take vouchers instead of pay?

Clearly your not a shareholder, manager or employee because if you were you’d understand the situation from the airlines perspective a little better.

Customers shouldn’t be forced to take a hit here but sh1t happens and life isn’t always fair. I’ve lost nearly a grand. That’s life.

You may get your money back, you may not, but it’s largely outside your control.

This situation is much bigger then each of you.

paddy19

"Customers shouldn’t be forced to take a hit here but sh1t happens and life isn’t always fair."

This is not sh1t happening.

This a temporary transport minister who is no longer a TD trying to dictate to consumers that they give highly profitable companies an interest free loan.

To add insult to injury the airlines have the brass neck to dictate that only the named passengers can use the voucher.

Why should I subsidise Michael O'Leary or Willie Walsh?

Need cash, ask shareholders first, banks next, government if you must but don't come to random customers when the said sh1t hits the fan.

The Bishop Basher

paddy19 wrote: »

"Customers shouldn’t be forced to take a hit here but sh1t happens and life isn’t always fair."

This is not sh1t happening.

This a temporary transport minister who is no longer a TD trying to dictate to consumers that they give highly profitable companies an interest free loan.

To add insult to injury the airlines have the brass neck to dictate that only the named passengers can use the voucher.

Why should I subsidise Michael O'Leary or Willie Walsh?

Need cash, ask shareholders first, banks next, government if you must but don't come to random customers when the said sh1t hits the fan.

Ok. Best of luck with it.

Bass Reeves

paddy19 wrote: »

This is not sh1t happening.

This a temporary transport minister who is no longer a TD trying to dictate to consumers that they give highly profitable companies an interest free loan.

To add insult to injury the airlines have the brass neck to dictate that only the named passengers can use the voucher.

Why should I subsidise Michael O'Leary or Willie Walsh?

Need cash, ask shareholders first, banks next, government if you must but don't come to random customers when the said sh1t hits the fan.

First off it not just this temporary transport minister. I dislike Shane Ross but this is a European wide issue and I imagine that it will be right across the EU this solution will be applied.

Share holders will be wiped out as well, guess who the majority of shareholders are, pension funds.

I would imagine that the reason it has not been announced as a solution already is that details of how to apply the voucher system is being negotiated at EU level and the legality of it being put in place.

This will be an EU wide solution not just an Irish one.

paddy19

"First off it not just this temporary transport minister. I dislike Shane Ross but this is a European wide issue and I imagine that it will be right across the EU this solution will be applied.

Share holders will be wiped out as well, guess who the majority of shareholders are, pension funds.

I would imagine that the reason it has not been announced as a solution already is that details of how to apply the voucher system is being negotiated at EU level and the legality of it being put in place.

This will be an EU wide solution not just an Irish one. "

First off it's not a European wide issue it's a world wide issue.
Trump and congress have given the US airlines a $54 billion bailout and they are still acting the maggot with refunds.

I have no problem with the EU or Governments helping out any industry in this crisis.
Some share holders will be wiped out. Ryanair shareholders will not be wiped out.
"Virgin Atlantic bailout backed by Rolls-Royce, Airbus and Heathrow"

I agree our illustrious temporary Minister is not the only one pushing this line in Europe.
But he should be pushing for EU support for any industry in trouble.

My problem is a sneaky half assed way of supporting the airlines by forcing random consumers to provide them with interest free loans.

If some airlines need an interest free loan and they are viable long term then get it from the EU not from me.

I'm not a bank, an investor, a shareholder or a hedge fund don't force me to become one.

johnire

You’re wrong....it is within our control. As customers buying a product we have rights and those rights are now conveniently being ignored. The other post made a good suggestion why don’t staff take a percentage cut in their salaries and use that to pump it back into the airline??? Why should I and thousands like me be expected to bail them out with an interest free loan?

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

Clearly your not a shareholder, manager or employee because if you were you’d understand the situation from the airlines perspective a little better.

Customers shouldn’t be forced to take a hit here but sh1t happens and life isn’t always fair. I’ve lost nearly a grand. That’s life.

You may get your money back, you may not, but it’s largely outside your control.

This situation is much bigger then each of you.

Every company is taking a hit, I don't see why airlines are a special case.

Don't they by European law have to be offer a refund if a flight is cancelled? I wouldn't entertain a voucher if it's a choice. Who knows what could happen those companies. Can see a lot of airlines folding.

Kerry25x

Personally I have no problem with this, I'll use the vouchers in the future. I took the risk and booked non-refundable flights so I'll be happy to get anything back. I have about 4.5k worth of flights booked for the year.

paddy19

Kerry25x wrote: »

I took the risk and booked non-refundable flights so I'll be happy to get anything back.

You took the risk that if you could not fly, you would loose the fare.

You did not take any risk if the airline did not fly for any reason.

The agreed contract and EU law is that if the airline does not fly you are entitles to a cash refund.

Our temporary non TD minister wants to give your money as an interest free loan to Willie Walsh or Michael O'Leary.

You want to take a crappy voucher instead of cash, go for it, but do not confuse the issue.

Kerry25x

paddy19 wrote: »

.
You want to take a crappy voucher instead of cash, go for it, but do not confuse the issue.

Like I said, *I personally* have no issue with it. It suits my needs just fine.. Besides it's hardly like the airline just decided to throw my flights for no reason, it's out of everyone's hands. I'm gonna complete my trip regardless when I can, so if I can reschedule my flights for free then I'll be more than happy.

No gaurentee I'll be elligible for a refund anyway because my trip is end of summer/autumn so flights might even be running by then but I won't travel unless it's low risk.

paddy19

Kerry25x wrote: »

Like I said, *I personally* have no issue with it. It suits my needs just fine.. Besides it's hardly like the airline just decided to throw my flights for no reason, it's out of everyone's hands. I'm gonna complete my trip regardless when I can, so if I can reschedule my flights for free then I'll be more than happy.

No gaurentee I'll be elligible for a refund anyway because my trip is end of summer/autumn so flights might even be running by then but I won't travel unless it's low risk.

Whatever works for you.

One minor point you may or may not be able to reschedule your flights for free. They have waived the flight change fee. If the new fare is higher than your current fare you have to pay the difference. As usual with airlines if the new fare is lower than current fare they pocket the difference.

Airlines rules, screw the consumer every chance you get.

murphaph

Here's my situation:
Live in Berlin. Flights to Dublin and back for whole family over Easter cancelled.

Even if Aer Lingus survives this crisis there is a very good chance the only route they fly from my city will be scrapped.

If IAG were serious they could offer IAG vouchers, valid on Aer Lingus but also BA, Iberia and Vuelling. At least I would be fairly certain of being able to use such a voucher from Berlin.

As it is I have ignored Aer Lingus' attempts to compel me to take the voucher and have requested a refund.

Padraig Mor

Kerry25x wrote: »

Personally I have no problem with this, I'll use the vouchers in the future. I took the risk and booked non-refundable flights so I'll be happy to get anything back. I have about 4.5k worth of flights booked for the year.

The problem is that it is very likely rebooked flights will be more expensive than those being cancelled - perhaps considerably so, negating the 'value' of your voucher. It's already been shown that customers who took the rebooking option were directed to a page with much higher prices than a standard booking.

Sleeper12

What's he doing picking on travellers? They are an ethnic minority and are protected by law!

average_runner

The question is, if u want to travel next year, we are going to need to help the industry out.

Vouchers are an easy way. You can say no but dont moan if costs of flights go through the roof. We are taking a voucher from aer lingus and book next years flight with it in sept. Same with the holiday resort.

murphaph

average_runner wrote: »

The question is, if u want to travel next year, we are going to need to help the industry out.

Vouchers are an easy way. You can say no but dont moan if costs of flights go through the roof. We are taking a voucher from aer lingus and book next years flight with it in sept. Same with the holiday resort.

The industry will exist. The Infrastructure will exist. The aircraft and capable staff will exist. Many of the existing companies will not exist.

The Bishop Basher

johnire wrote: »

You’re wrong....it is within our control. As customers buying a product we have rights and those rights are now conveniently being ignored.

Great. You'll be able to solve it so..

johnire wrote: »

Why should I and thousands like me be expected to bail them out with an interest free loan?

Life isn't always fair.

paddy19

average_runner wrote: »

The question is, if u want to travel next year, we are going to need to help the industry out.

Vouchers are an easy way. You can say no but dont moan if costs of flights go through the roof. We are taking a voucher from aer lingus and book next years flight with it in sept. Same with the holiday resort.

It's not a passengers job to help the industry out.
That's what shareholders, banks and governments are supposed to do.

Why should a subset of passengers who were unlucky enough to book flights during this period be asked to dig out the highly profitable airlines?

Airlines are highly cyclical business they should be putting reserves in place for the bad times.

" if costs of flights go through the roof."

The airlines will always charge what the market will bare.

MadYaker

If loads of airlines go bust so be it. The airline industry is about 50% larger than it needs to be anyway. If an airline is having to sell scratch cards and perfume to keep a flight in the black then that flight shouldn’t be happening. It’s pumping our ozone layer full of carbon dioxide.

average_runner

paddy19 wrote: »

It's not a passengers job to help the industry out.
That's what shareholders, banks and governments are supposed to do.

Why should a subset of passengers who were unlucky enough to book flights during this period be asked to dig out the highly profitable airlines?

Airlines are highly cyclical business they should be putting reserves in place for the bad times.

" if costs of flights go through the roof."

The airlines will always charge what the market will bare.

Hope you put alot away for this bad time

paddy19

average_runner wrote: »

Hope you put a lot away for this bad time

I was lucky enough to put away a bit, but many others couldn't.

Ryanair bought back €1.1 billion worth of shares in 2018. If they had kept in reserves they would be in a much better position.

Kerry25x

Padraig Mor wrote: »

The problem is that it is very likely rebooked flights will be more expensive than those being cancelled - perhaps considerably so, negating the 'value' of your voucher. It's already been shown that customers who took the rebooking option were directed to a page with much higher prices than a standard booking.

That's true, flights could go up.

I've already had to reschedule March flights with Air France (to fly home early), the girl on the phone told me it would €1100 fare difference to fly on that same day or I could switch it to the following day for free. I thought that that was fair especially considering that I hadn't booked through the airline but rather through a 3rd party who weren't even answering the phones.

My next set of flights to South Africa are also with Air France so I'm hopeful for another good experience.

flasher0030

This is so typical of the Irish mentality - get screwed over and over again, and the outcome is "shure look, can't win em all. Have to just grin and bear it. Shure hopefully it will be better next time".
What a ridiculas notion of a solution - for the customers to just suck it up, you booked the flights; now you're getting no cash back because we don't want to give you anything. Such arrogance by the airlines. And Ross. Many people would have spent thousands on flights, some of which will have lost jobs. And have families to feed and bills to pay. No consideration there.
This idea of you win some, you lose some is so lazy. If you want to maintain that kind of attitude, so be it; you'll get nowhere in life. But don't try to preach it here to people who are obviously annoyed at getting shafted by corporate greed, and at least will hopefully do something about it.

They have to issue a refund if cancelled, by law.

Take the refund if needed.

rodge123

Assuming a lot of people paid by credit card, just contact your bank/card provider and issue a chargeback if the airline won’t provide a refund?

What happens if the company goes bust anyway and you had no choice but to take a voucher?

IAMAMORON

Gotta love the Shane Ross swiping. He couldn't possibly care anymore apart from any personal interest he holds in the aviation industry via shareholding. Given he is a top tier investor he would have liquidated his position weeks before lockdowns were being muted, he is shrewd.

Politically he is retired now, writing books. It is no odds for him to try it on, but everyone should be looking for refunds. This is not about investing in an airline ,it is buying a ticket. Don't pay the ferryman etc.

The op is spot on ( except for the obvious Shane Ross bash ).

Ben D Bus

Some airlines will go bust. Some will survive. Some new airlines will start. That's how the market works.

There is no need to subsidise any particular airline.

salmocab

I’ve a grand spent on flights next month, got an email saying I could change up to end of August so high season meaning other dates are far more expensive, I’d probably be happy enough to take a voucher but a year isn’t long enough as my son starts school this year so we may not get a chance to go away as a family until next summer so as things stand I’ll be needing the refund as otherwise there’s a good chance my grand will be gone.

Sheep Shagger

Ben D Bus wrote: »

Some airlines will go bust. Some will survive. Some new airlines will start. That's how the market works.

There is no need to subsidise any particular airline.

Doubt the legacy EU carriers will go bust, too much political damage if say Air France collapsed, likewise with Luthansa.

Just as well Aer Lingus is owned by IAG (25% owned by Qatar) otherwise it would be toast.

The middle eastern carriers have deep pockets and the likes of Cathay Pacifix, Qantas and Air NZ have already received state bail outs.

Agreed some smaller regional carriers might go bust (flybe would never have survived this) but the mainstream ones will survive, perhaps just on a smaller scale.

paddy19

Travel intermediaries look to regulators for help with airline refunds

The airline ticket payment system between carriers and intermediaries is near collapse, according to the European Travel Agents' and Tour Operators' Association (ECTAA).

https://www.phocuswire.com/ECTAA-IATA-payments-agents

6

6 wrote: »

They have to issue a refund if cancelled, by law.

Take the refund if needed.

Did you read the article?

The Bishop Basher

flasher0030 wrote: »

This idea of you win some, you lose some is so lazy. If you want to maintain that kind of attitude, so be it; you'll get nowhere in life.

One of the best pieces of advice i was ever taught was to choose my battles wisely.

And i've done very well in life thanks very much :P

flasher0030 wrote: »

But don't try to preach it here to people who are obviously annoyed at getting shafted by corporate greed, and at least will hopefully do something about it.

No preaching here. Just trying to point out the reality of the situation but it appears to be lost on some of you.

I understand the anger and frustration. I'm down €800 myself. There's nothing fair about it. Life isn't fair.

You're naive if you think you have any say in this.

You don't.

Caranica

rodge123 wrote: »

Assuming a lot of people paid by credit card, just contact your bank/card provider and issue a chargeback if the airline won’t provide a refund?

I paid with PayPal and they keep refusing me a refund.

Niner leprauchan

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Did you read the article?

Yes

The European Consumer Centre, which polices consumer rights across the EU, last week stressed that, regardless of what passengers had been told, airlines are “obliged to respect passenger rights, which remain unchanged even under such extraordinary circumstances as the Covid-19 restrictions”. It said people were entitled to refunds if flights were cancelled

paddy19

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

I understand the anger and frustration. I'm down €800 myself. There's nothing fair about it. Life isn't fair.

You're naive if you think you have any say in this.
You don't.

This is not about life been fair. Life is not fair in its randomness, some people get sick and die young, some live to a 100. This has nothing to do with the randomness of life.

This is crowd of airlines breaking the law and getting support from some of our politicians.

The law is absolutely clear. Airline does not fly, the passenger is due a cash refund. No confusion, no ifs, no buts, no maybes.

I have no problem if the law is changed.

But until the law is changed Ryanair's Michael O'Leary and Aer Lingus's Willie Walsh show follow it, like the rest of us.

The Bishop Basher

paddy19 wrote: »

This has nothing to do with the randomness of life.

Of course it has. The not insignificant matter of a global pandemic, which is pretty random, means all standard rules have gone out the window for now and all the huffing, puffing and ranting in the world won’t change that fact.

maestroamado

Jucifer wrote: »

I will be claiming my refund for flights but if they did offer a voucher that lasts 12 months or something I would gladly take it instead. What I am being offered is the “opportunity” to rebook but only between June and August this year. I don’t think that is fair given the uncertainty around when this will all be over. The flight is early May to one of the worst affected regions of Spain so it is likely to be cancelled. The accommodation already provided a full refund of deposits.

Just accept and re-book, if its cancelled re-book again.
Well i think that be ok.
Actually a flight between June and August for a May flight sounds like a good deal to me.
go for it...

salmocab

maestroamado wrote: »

Just accept and re-book, if its cancelled re-book again.
Well i think that be ok.
Actually a flight between June and August for a May flight sounds like a good deal to me.
go for it...

They’re looking for the difference in price to be paid, so if the later flight is cancelled you’re even further in the hole with them

Strumms

People are forgetting, whatever cash Ryanair have in the bank millions or billions , Ryanair have billions in assets. They own the vast majority of aircraft that they fly. In May 2019 they reported a 1.02 billion euro profit, down 29% on the previous year..

https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-full-year-profit-down-29-to-e1-02bn-on-lower-fares-guiding-flat-group-profits-for-the-coming-year-board-approves-e700m-share-buyback/

Ross is a money man and friend of the business guy. Not the friend of you and me.