Another Own Goal by the HSE .

mountai

You would have thought that the Government take over of the private hospitals would have helped in this crisis , but the opposite is in cas the fact . 600 Doctors in the private sector refuse to sign the HSE contract which demands that they hand over their existing patients to the public system , and rightly so , as it would interrupt ongoing health care programmes their patients are under . As a consequence , the private hospitals are empty . Well done Simon and the HSE .

Hoop66

As I understand it, the private hospitals are emptying because they are being readied to take serious non-Covid cases from the public sector - which will handle the Covid cases.

listermint

This isnt a HSE problem, this is a consultants problem.

dotsman

I think it's more of an own goal for those that think you can simply destroy the private sector and expect everything to work seamlessly.

Snow Garden

All the hospitals are quiet at the moment apart from the ones dealing with a significant number of Covid-19 patients in ICU etc.
UCHG has never been as quiet with just 3 in ICU on Monday.

Look at the Trolley watch numbers too.
https://www.inmo.ie/Trolley_Ward_Watch

uck51js9zml2yt

Snow Garden wrote: »

All the hospitals are quiet at the moment apart from the ones dealing with a significant number of Covid-19 patients in ICU etc.
UCHG has never been as quiet with just 3 in ICU on Monday.

Look at the Trolley watch numbers too.
https://www.inmo.ie/Trolley_Ward_Watch

Mater hospital is reporting they at at capacity in icu

Snow Garden

Emilee Whining Warmonger wrote: »

Mater hospital is reporting they at at capacity in icu

Correct. They have 18 ICU beds with a plan to create an extra 18 beds in the high dependency unit. Dublin is being hit the hardest without a doubt.
I am sure the rest of the Mater is very quiet. There are no elective surgeries taking place. People afraid to go to A&E.

mountai

listermint wrote: »

This isnt a HSE problem, this is a consultants problem.

Why?

Yurt2

mountai wrote: »

Why?

I'm open to correction if there is a genuine public health risk associated with the new arrangements, but from the outside, it looks like pandered consultants throwing a strop because they can't get that sweet sweet private patient contact-time money.

It's an emergency, they need to suck it up.

mountai

Yurt! wrote: »

I'm open to correction if there is a genuine public health risk associated with the new arrangements, but from the outside, it looks like pandered consultants throwing a strop because they can't get that sweet sweet private patient contact-time money.

It's an emergency, they need to suck it up.

The irony is, Consultants operating in Public Hospitals, treating patients in a private capacity ( as their contract allows), are uneffected. Are you suggesting that Drs who operate only in the private sector be compelled to ignore their " Duty of Care" to their existing patients??

Roanmore

Yurt! wrote: »

I'm open to correction if there is a genuine public health risk associated with the new arrangements, but from the outside, it looks like pandered consultants throwing a strop because they can't get that sweet sweet private patient contact-time money.

It's an emergency, they need to suck it up.

Rubbish.

My wife is a chronic pain sufferer, her procedure was cancelled last week 2 days before it was due to take place. She can’t get it in the public system, it’s an experimental procedure which is working but wears off.
She is in severe pain.

Her consultant is not working and the area where the procedures take place is closed.

**** like “suck it up” or “get over it” is the stock answer from people who haven’t a clue what’s going on in other people’s lives

Tom Mann Centuria

Roanmore wrote: »

Rubbish.

My wife is a chronic pain sufferer, her procedure was cancelled last week 2 days before it was due to take place. She can’t get it in the public system, it’s an experimental procedure which is working but wears off.
She is in severe pain.

Her consultant is not working and the area where the procedures take place is closed.

**** like “suck it up” or “get over it” is the stock answer from people who haven’t a clue what’s going on in other people’s lives

Every likelihood that procedures would have been cancelled anyway. Private mri clinics not involved in the HSE deal have closed anyway, private hospitals in the UK have been cancelling most procedures. They will want as few people as possible in their hospitals and clinics to minimise risk of Covid-19.

It's awful people have been adversely affected but I doubt the private facilities would be undertaking most of their "normal service" even if they remained a private entity for these few weeks.

Roanmore

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

Every likelihood that procedures would have been cancelled anyway. Private mri clinics not involved in the HSE deal have closed anyway, private hospitals in the UK have been cancelling most procedures. They will want as few people as possible in their hospitals and clinics to minimise risk of Covid-19.

It's awful people have been adversely affected but I doubt the private facilities would be undertaking most of their "normal service" even if they remained a private entity for these few weeks.

You're wrong, we rang on the Monday and asked would it be cancelled due to C19 and they said no, they were open and conducting procedures.
They had precautions in place. It was only when it was announced about the Private hospitals being taken over by the Government did we get news the next day to say it was cancelled.

JPCN1

Roanmore wrote: »

You're wrong, we rang on the Monday and asked would it be cancelled due to C19 and they said no, they were open and conducting procedures.
They had precautions in place. It was only when it was announced about the Private hospitals being taken over by the Government did we get news the next day to say it was cancelled.

The HSE, perhaps the most derided institution in the State and with good reason. Doubt too many posters here would welcome their management 'expertise' coming to take over their businesses. Look at their record since they were created. Private hospitals function very well and will continue to do so after the HSE leave to continue to oversee the shambles they have created.

Hope your wife manages to get the care she needs Roanmore.

Yurt2

Roanmore wrote: »

Rubbish.

My wife is a chronic pain sufferer, her procedure was cancelled last week 2 days before it was due to take place. She can’t get it in the public system, it’s an experimental procedure which is working but wears off.
She is in severe pain.

Her consultant is not working and the area where the procedures take place is closed.

**** like “suck it up” or “get over it” is the stock answer from people who haven’t a clue what’s going on in other people’s lives

At no stage was I suggesting people suffering from chronic illnesses to 'suck it up,' I'd have your wife get the treatment she needs tommorow in an ideal world - and I'm being serious there.

These are however extraordinary times in public health and I agree with the difficult measures taken by the health authorities to cancel non essential treatments to increase capacity across the system to save lives.

It is my suspicion, and I'll admit it's just my suspicion, that consultants have their eye things other than patient care when they baulk at the locum contracts.

JJJackal

listermint wrote: »

This isnt a HSE problem, this is a consultants problem.

How is a consultant problem?

mountai

Yurt! wrote: »

At no stage was I suggesting people suffering from chronic illnesses to 'suck it up,' I'd have your wife get the treatment she needs tommorow in an ideal world - and I'm being serious there.

These are however extraordinary times in public health and I agree with the difficult measures taken by the health authorities to cancel non essential treatments to increase capacity across the system to save lives.

It is my suspicion, and I'll admit it's just my suspicion, that consultants have their eye things other than patient care when they baulk at the locum contracts.

I find your post most hypocritical . There are many patients , who require ongoing cancer treatment , whose protocols have been interrupted by this ill thought out bullying tactic by the HSE . 600 Doctors refuse to sign this "Contract" , they cant all be influenced as you seem to think . God forbid that you should require urgent treatment , but if you did , will you ask your treating Doctor , " What Contract are YOU on " .

Yurt2

mountai wrote: »

I find your post most hypocritical . There are many patients , who require ongoing cancer treatment , whose protocols have been interrupted by this ill thought out bullying tactic by the HSE . 600 Doctors refuse to sign this "Contract" , they cant all be influenced as you seem to think . God forbid that you should require urgent treatment , but if you did , will you ask your treating Doctor , " What Contract are YOU on " .

It is my understanding that disruption to oncology and other treatments life threatening illnesses is being kept to an absolute minimum in all facilities.

The consultants are still able to treat their most vulnerable patients if they sign the locum contracts, just not on the terms that they are seeking and with the amount of independence they are accustomed to.

I'm of the belief that the measures will do the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people possible. That's what they are seeking to do, and that's probably what's necessary in the current climate. I think it's unfair to call it bullying when the authorities are playing the cards they have with the view to saving as many lives as possible and bringing disruption to absolutely essential services down to the lowest level possible.

Again, I post this in no way trying to minimise you loved one's situation.

mountai

Yurt! wrote: »

It is my understanding that disruption to oncology and other treatments life threatening illnesses is being kept to an absolute minimum in all facilities.

The consultants are still able to treat their most vulnerable patients if they sign the locum contracts, just not on the terms that they are seeking and with the amount of independence they are accustomed to.

I'm of the belief that the measures will do the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people possible. That's what they are seeking to do, and that's probably what's necessary in the current climate. I think it's unfair to call it bullying when the authorities are playing the cards they have with the view to saving as many lives as possible and bringing disruption to absolutely essential services down to the lowest level possible.

Again, I post this in no way trying to minimise you loved one's situation.

Of course its bullying , but nothing new there . I would go so far as to call it "State Abuse " . The fact that existing Drs, practicing within the HSE , are allowed to carry on treating private patients , whilst their colleagues are singled out for "Special Treatment" is bullying and abuse in my eyes . Meanwhile , private hospitals are still empty . Im sure Roanmore and his suffering wife take great comfort from your words .

JustAThought

Having been through the hamster wheel of public ‘doctors’ I wouod have no more trust in them and their qualifications than I would in a vegan or organic pizza. At least with a private doctor you have some chance of them being properly and fully qualified, not being an unsupervised and unqualified student and being able
to speak the same language as you - not to mention being identifiable, traceable, available and accountable - little of which you will find in the rotating doctors door in public ‘treatment’.
I applaud their private bravery and private balls.

mountai

So according to tonights news , an agreement was reached last week , but when contracts were issued , important details were omitted . Typical HSE , now we are informed of false test results being issued re Coronavirus . Of course the usual apologies have been issued . Seem familiar??. HSE = totally inept and unaccountable . Things just never change . In no way are front line staff to blame for this mess .

Amirani

JustAThought wrote: »

Having been through the hamster wheel of public ‘doctors’ I wouod have no more trust in them and their qualifications than I would in a vegan or organic pizza. At least with a private doctor you have some chance of them being properly and fully qualified, not being an unsupervised and unqualified student and being able
to speak the same language as you - not to mention being identifiable, traceable, available and accountable - little of which you will find in the rotating doctors door in public ‘treatment’.
I applaud their private bravery and private balls.

Yeah sure. And I'm sure the private doctor will be of much use to you when you're having a stroke or a cardiac arrest and the only place you're gonna get treatment is a public hospital.

Private hospitals are good for certain things, mostly chronic or minor acute conditions. But in reality, most of them are just glorified clinics with limited treatment availability. When things get serious, they send their paying patients off the public system to pick up the crap after them. Handy way to operate.

ILoveYourVibes

The cancelling of operations is not because hospitals are at capacity its because hospitals are breeding groups for viruses. Its to stop the spread.

Wtf ?

listermint wrote: »

This isnt a HSE problem, this is a consultants problem.

The word ''Greed'' again springs to mind !

ILoveYourVibes

Wtf ? wrote: »

The word ''Greed'' again springs to mind !

Irish consultants are not rich. They just have better working conditions.

nthclare

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Irish consultants are not rich. They just have better working conditions.

They're making a living like all of us, if that's their choice to become consultants it's their choice.

They have better living conditions that's for sure, there's a consultant living not far from me and I assure you they're quite comfortable.

If looking after people's health equates to cost and getting rich then as a society we're the Titanic which deliberately hit the ice berg...or like a bus driver drunk at the wheel.

When are we going to learn ?

I eat healthily, get exercise and fresh air get enough sleep, don't drink,drug or smoke because I'm on a modest wage and my health is my wealth...

I don't care for money, it's only important when I don't have it.

I know I'm full of clichés and sound a bit hippy dippy, but the sheer greed and ineptitude of the hierarchy in this country is shocking.

There's still a myopic attitude to public spending and the HSE really need outside help and advice on how to run the show.

it's not hard to admit one's wrong and needs a shake up.

A percentage of those clerical staff which are top heavy in the HSE should be retrained as nurses, or put to better use.
That will ease the strain on the backbone of the system.

I'm not a moany leftie I'm more moderate slightly right leaning, but if this Corona pandemic doesn't teach society a lesson then I don't know what's going to happen.

Sheer greed and a total lack of responsibility and empathy is the biggest problem with the running of the show.

I studied horticulture and botany because I love plant's and the environment, not because I love money and want to become rich...

When are people going to wake up ?

Paul Reid is brilliant.

Why would anyone try to play politics with COVID 19.

JPCN1

Certainly not the people who keep bringing us peanuts like PPars, 2 year waiting lists, Cervical Screening, Trolleys in hallways etc if you're lucky enough to get one. Tests taking over a couple of days aren't worth a great deal/

Obfuscation and misdirection has been their hallmark to date so lets wait and see.

Roanmore

Wtf ? wrote: »

The word ''Greed'' again springs to mind !

Please enlighten us. Please explain the greed in this situation?

The poster you quoted was asked 3 times to explain their statement but never did.

I think it was already said that an agreement was reached where they could treat their private patients as well but was omitted from the final contracts.

2ndcoming

Roanmore wrote: »

Rubbish.

My wife is a chronic pain sufferer, her procedure was cancelled last week 2 days before it was due to take place. She can’t get it in the public system, it’s an experimental procedure which is working but wears off.
She is in severe pain.

Her consultant is not working and the area where the procedures take place is closed.

**** like “suck it up” or “get over it” is the stock answer from people who haven’t a clue what’s going on in other people’s lives

I genuinely feel for your wife's troubles. If we were to imagine a permanent single tier system there would always be outliers such as this around the time of handover sadly.

But the unfortunate truth of the quasi American system we've developed over the past 30 years is these kinds of treatments are available to a far lower percentage of the population than they would be in a properly funded single tier system.

The further we go down the current path, as evidenced in all other aspects of the economy, the less accessible these kind of specialist services become as the pay wall of access only goes one direction and that is up.

JustAThought

Amirani wrote: »

Yeah sure. And I'm sure the private doctor will be of much use to you when you're having a stroke or a cardiac arrest and the only place you're gonna get treatment is a public hospital.

Private hospitals are good for certain things, mostly chronic or minor acute conditions. But in reality, most of them are just glorified clinics with limited treatment availability. When things get serious, they send their paying patients off the public system to pick up the crap after them. Handy way to operate.

Having had family members had two major heart ops in private hospitals (A&E) and two further family members treated for serious medical emergency needs in private hospitals (private A&E again) I would beg to differ. Also from experience The difference between public oncology treatment and that in a private hospital is eye watering. Not everything ‘free’ is necessarily good, quality or reliable. And from my experience of the sloppy work riddled with mistakes by sub qualified doctors presenting themselves as experts and their laxidisacal errors and disruptive ‘service’ in public hospitals I will remain a firm advocate of private. I wouldn’t bet my health on anything else.

JustAThought

JustAThought wrote: »

Having had family members had two major heart ops in private hospitals (A&E) and two further family members treated for serious medical emergency needs in private hospitals (private A&E again) I would beg to differ. Also from experience The difference between public oncology treatment and that in a private hospital is eye watering. Not everything ‘free’ is necessarily good, quality or reliable. And from my experience of the sloppy work riddled with mistakes by sub qualified doctors presenting themselves as experts and their laxidisacal errors and disruptive ‘service’ in public hospitals I will remain a firm advocate of private. I wouldn’t bet my health on anything else.

Doctors in private hospitial are just as likely or unlikey to make a mistake just because you are paying for it dose not make it better, but people have an iron clad belife that privite = better, ask any firm of solicitors who deal with meidcal negligence.

I have had treatment in both the privite and public systmes and both were very good.

Montage of Feck

dotsman wrote: »

I think it's more of an own goal for those that think you can simply destroy the private sector and expect everything to work seamlessly.

But when the **** hits the fan its the public service that always has to take the hit. Say what you like about the HSE, a lot of it rightly to be fair, but it's good to have a national health service in an emergency situation like this.

Montage of Feck

Montage of Feck wrote: »

But when the **** hits the fan its the public service that always has to take the hit. Say what you like about the HSE, a lot of it rightly to be fair, but it's good to have a national health service in an emergency situation like this.

Yep. Look at what's happening in the private nursing and residential homes at the moment

mountai

Yep. Look at what's happening in the private nursing and residential homes at the moment


Published figure so far show that the most deaths have taken place in State Run Homes . A figure to ponder , --- Public service run homes cost average 60% more to run than those in the private sector . . and another point , featured in the
news tonight , according to the INMO a total of SIX, yes, SIX new nurses have been added to the workforce out of a total of THOUSANDS OF APPLICANTS .
HSE = Total disaster .

mountai

mountai wrote: »

Yep. Look at what's happening in the private nursing and residential homes at the moment


Published figure so far show that the most deaths have taken place in State Run Homes . A figure to ponder , --- Public service run homes cost average 60% more to run than those in the private sector . . and another point , featured in the
news tonight , according to the INMO a total of SIX, yes, SIX new nurses have been added to the workforce out of a total of THOUSANDS OF APPLICANTS .
HSE = Total disaster .

The public run nursing units would have a lot of long-stay very vulnerable people with complex needs you are not comparing like with like that does not mean they are above scrutiny though.

The HSE could be a lot better but it is not a disaster by any means.

dotsman

Montage of Feck wrote: »

But when the **** hits the fan its the public service that always has to take the hit. Say what you like about the HSE, a lot of it rightly to be fair, but it's good to have a national health service in an emergency situation like this.

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against having a public system; in fact, I'm all for it. But I am against denying a private alternative to people, especially when that private alternative offers essential services that the public system fails to address.

Rodin

JustAThought wrote: »

Having had family members had two major heart ops in private hospitals (A&E) and two further family members treated for serious medical emergency needs in private hospitals (private A&E again) I would beg to differ. Also from experience The difference between public oncology treatment and that in a private hospital is eye watering. Not everything ‘free’ is necessarily good, quality or reliable. And from my experience of the sloppy work riddled with mistakes by sub qualified doctors presenting themselves as experts and their laxidisacal errors and disruptive ‘service’ in public hospitals I will remain a firm advocate of private. I wouldn’t bet my health on anything else.

Who's on the shop floor when the consultant goes home in the private hospital? Considering those won't be training posts.

Mrs OBumble

Rodin wrote: »

Who's on the shop floor when the consultant goes home in the private hospital? Considering those won't be training posts.

Who's there in a public hospital? Likely a sleep-deprived trainee doctor.

I think I'd rather the experienced nurse in the private hospital.

Rodin

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Who's there in a public hospital? Likely a sleep-deprived trainee doctor.

I think I'd rather the experienced nurse in the private hospital.

Give me an SPR over a nurse any day of the week.
Who do you think will be calling who for their help?

mountai

So the HSE have labelled some of the patients in St Mary's nursing home ( run by themselves) as " DIRTY". This gets worse and worse.

beauf

mountai wrote: »

So the HSE have labelled some of the patients in St Mary's nursing home ( run by themselves) as " DIRTY". This gets worse and worse.

That's not what's happening. It's referring to contamination.

I bet where ever you read this has comments correcting this.

mountai

beauf wrote: »

That's not what's happening. It's referring to contamination.

I bet where ever you read this has comments correcting this.

Of course they have issued an apology for use of "Unfortunate choice of words" , but ---- Will the person who issued this statement be censured --- You bet they wont . ---- If however , a person employed in the private sector , issued a statement like this , they would be shown the door , and rightly so . BTW , the word WAS referring to "Patients" NOT contaminated areas .

That memo was probably written by an experienced nurse or doctor.

Do you think we can afford to censure them or "show them the door" over an unfortunate turn of phrase in an internal document that was probably never intended for public consumption.

Jim Root

Another health expert on the forum I see.

beauf

mountai wrote: »

Of course they have issued an apology for use of "Unfortunate choice of words" , but ---- Will the person who issued this statement be censured --- You bet they wont . ---- If however , a person employed in the private sector , issued a statement like this , they would be shown the door , and rightly so . BTW , the word WAS referring to "Patients" NOT contaminated areas .

You want to sack them because you're offended by a word that's in common use in medical circles. Maybe you'd like to ban the word infected. Perhaps employ grammar police to all hospitals.

The media and press use offensive words all day long and a lot of it is fake and designed to cause offence and conflict. Probably get bonuses the more inaccurate and inflammatory it is.

This was mostly corrected in the comments in wherever you read it, but you decided to spread the disinformation and cause more fake outrage. You also decided to sweeten the bait with some private sector Vs public sector stirring.

Larbre34

This is all a bit moot. According to my medic friend in St James, the qualified ICU nurses, physios, nutritionists etc are simply not materialising to appropriately operate ICUs established in the private hospitals.

As our numbers are stabilising without undue pressure, it would be more prudent to let consultants in day-to-day specialties return to treating both their private and public patients.

beauf

Larbre34 wrote: »

This is all a bit moot. According to my medic friend in St James, the qualified ICU nurses, physios, nutritionists etc are simply not materialising to appropriately operate ICUs established in the private hospitals.

As our numbers are stabilising without undue pressure, it would be more prudent to let consultants in day-to-day specialties return to treating both their private and public patients.

Going to be hard to achieve that with social distancing.

We've appointments due in a hospital that's taken a lot of normal work from the hospital's handling virus patients. They don't have resources to do both.

Roanmore

Larbre34 wrote: »

This is all a bit moot. According to my medic friend in St James, the qualified ICU nurses, physios, nutritionists etc are simply not materialising to appropriately operate ICUs established in the private hospitals.

As our numbers are stabilising without undue pressure, it would be more prudent to let consultants in day-to-day specialties return to treating both their private and public patients.

This is sensible suggestion. I think the HSE / Government used a sledge hammer to crack a nut here. Stopped everything in the Private hospitals at the stroke of a pen.

The Sunday Business Post has a great article on the situation on it's front page today. Doesn't take any sides but lays out what's happening.

- Only a fraction of the private beds have been taken up.
- Private Hospitals were paid 90m for April.
- Public Consultants with private patients still allowed to treat and bill private patients (or Insurance Companies), this option is not open to Private Consultants.
- Consultants saying rent, staff and insurance part of the cost
- Confusion around termination date
- Consultants may take legal action
- Lot of Private Consultants and Staff not working at present

beauf

Roanmore wrote: »

This is sensible suggestion. I think the HSE / Government used a sledge hammer to crack a nut here. Stopped everything in the Private hospitals at the stroke of a pen.

....

That's was probably the right choice in face of pandemic that has overloaded health systems in other countries.

Certainly time to re-evaluate but there will be further waves of this virus as had been seen in other countries after the initial lock down is eased.

mountai

beauf wrote: »

That's was probably the right choice in face of pandemic that has overloaded health systems in other countries.

Certainly time to re-evaluate but there will be further waves of this virus as had been seen in other countries after the initial lock down is eased.

And of course they contracted to pay the private sector THREE TIMES THE PRICE that the UK contracted their private hospitals for .