Family member is an anti-vaxer

SmallgirlBigcity

So I have a 4 month old baby and he recently has his 2nd round of vaccines. He didn't react well and spent the following 24 hours crying and sleeping a lot. I mentioned this to my brother who in passing said that his 4 year old son hasn't had any vaccines because he and his wife don't agree with them.

After thinking about this for about a day, I rang my brother to explain that as his son isn't vaccinated, I don't think it's safe for my son to be around him until my son has had all of his vaccines. My brother got very offended and hung up on me. I'm devastated because we haven't always got along but in the last few years, we had moved past any previous issues and we were getting along.

By the way, I didn't question his choices, I just explained that it's not safe for my son to be around an unvaccinated child. I also said that he and his wife should consider telling family members and close friends because I was completely unaware of this. Has I known, I wouldn't have had my son around his cousin when he was a newborn.

Anyway, my brother and his wife are extremely offended. They are hurt that I think their son is a danger to my son and they make the point that 'our son isn't anymore of a risk than anyone who hasn't had their boosters in recent years or parents who never had measles and didn't get vaccinations'. They also say that anyone aged over 45 hasn't had the MMR. I'm pretty sure this isn't accurate is it?

Even if it is, obviously everyone should still vaccinate their child to protect them. I spoke to my GP who explained that my son won't be fully protected against measles until he's had all boosters at the age of 5. So I'm not going to have my son around his cousin until then. Just looking for opinions on this and whether people think this is an overreaction on my part or not. Thanks.

Milly33

Oh that is a tough one..

Id say maybe give your brother a bit of time for this to settle in and maybe try and approach him again just to talk.. Not nice if you say like that ye have just rebuilt things.. In my experience with that situation, they are always going to find something to bite on just let them at it be there for them if they call but if they keep bringing this up just say stop.

I get where you are coming from as this is your child you are protecting so it is up to you really what ye would like to do. Just the same I suppose as your brother and his wifes choice not to vaccinate, but in my head for them I would be telling others especially if there is a newborn around.. The are much stronger than we give them credit for but at the same time they are very vulnerable..Not sure if i would have the strong will to keep them away until the age of 5 but I would for sure, until they have the first round of vaccines over with.

Herself was the same with one round of vaccines took the first not a bother, and the second or third was very harsh on her, seems like forever at the time but they jump back..

Just do what ye think is right for ye and try not to let others pressure ye into anything

jlm29

anti vaxxers are a danger to society. I personally think unvaccinated children (those who don’t have a medical reason not to be vaccinated) shouldn’t be allowed to attend schools or childcare.
You’re not wrong here, they are.

I Probably feel a bit more strongly about it after watching the world grind to a halt while we all hope someone develops a vaccine for covid-19

SmallgirlBigcity

jlm29 wrote: »

anti vaxxers are a danger to society. I personally think unvaccinated children (those who don’t have a medical reason not to be vaccinated) shouldn’t be allowed to attend schools or childcare.
You’re not wrong here, they are.

I Probably feel a bit more strongly about it after watching the world grind to a halt while we all hope someone develops a vaccine for covid-19

Thanks, I'm so shocked that they didn't get their boy vaccinated. I asked how he is going to crèche and my brother said 'we just tell them he is vaccinated and they don't check'. I couldn't believe it.

bee06

I don’t think you’re over reacting given that measles and mumps are doing the rounds and the first case of rubella in 10 years was in Cork a couple of months ago.

Riesen_Meal

SmallgirlBigcity wrote: »

Thanks, I'm so shocked that they didn't get their boy vaccinated. I asked how he is going to crèche and my brother said 'we just tell them he is vaccinated and they don't check'. I couldn't believe it.

This is insane stuff to be hearing in 2020, especially with what is going on currently in the world, if it were a neighbour, I'd probably report them to Tusla, it's your brother though, so not sure how it can be approached...

Wish you luck with this one OP, as it's a difficult one to approach...

Be right back

SmallgirlBigcity wrote: »

Thanks, I'm so shocked that they didn't get their boy vaccinated. I asked how he is going to crèche and my brother said 'we just tell them he is vaccinated and they don't check'. I couldn't believe it.

Wow, that's so irresponsible. I know of someone who became ill with measles ( before MMR) and was left severely brain damaged.

Thoie

SmallgirlBigcity wrote: »

Thanks, I'm so shocked that they didn't get their boy vaccinated. I asked how he is going to crèche and my brother said 'we just tell them he is vaccinated and they don't check'. I couldn't believe it.

I don't have any advice about the relationship, but honestly, if you know what creche it is, when it reopens I'd send them an anonymous letter saying it's come to your attention that not all kids are vaccinated, and perhaps they might want to ask for letters from doctors or certificate of vaccinations or whatever before letting kids back in.

jlm29

SmallgirlBigcity wrote: »

Thanks, I'm so shocked that they didn't get their boy vaccinated. I asked how he is going to crèche and my brother said 'we just tell them he is vaccinated and they don't check'. I couldn't believe it.

That’s actually shocking. Making their own (dangerous) decision is one thing, but putting other kids at risk by lying is just wreckless. But the crèche should be checking. It’s so irresponsible, that’s upsetting.

jlm29

Thoie wrote: »

I don't have any advice about the relationship, but honestly, if you know what creche it is, when it reopens I'd send them an anonymous letter saying it's come to your attention that not all kids are vaccinated, and perhaps they might want to ask for letters from doctors or certificate of vaccinations or whatever before letting kids back in.

I’d probably do this too. Or else I’d ring tusla and tell them the same thing. These people are all strangers to me and I’m actually irritated by this

iamwhoiam

SmallgirlBigcity wrote: »

Thanks, I'm so shocked that they didn't get their boy vaccinated. I asked how he is going to crèche and my brother said 'we just tell them he is vaccinated and they don't check'. I couldn't believe it.

This is absolutely scandalous . There could be immuno compromised children in that creche . I personally think the creches should be checking the children’s vacation record . They are all in a book and stamped . Shocking behaviour by your brother and I wouldn’t be bringing my baby to his house at all

splinter65

SmallgirlBigcity wrote: »

Thanks, I'm so shocked that they didn't get their boy vaccinated. I asked how he is going to crèche and my brother said 'we just tell them he is vaccinated and they don't check'. I couldn't believe it.

I’d go as far as to inform the crèche about this. There could be vulnerable children at that crèche who simply cannot be vaccinated and are relying on the other children’s parents to do the right thing.
While your brother and his wife obviously love their child they are very dim and extremely misguided and it’s quite unforgivable and inexcusable.

Thoie

Thoie wrote: »

I don't have any advice about the relationship, but honestly, if you know what creche it is, when it reopens I'd send them an anonymous letter saying it's come to your attention that not all kids are vaccinated, and perhaps they might want to ask for letters from doctors or certificate of vaccinations or whatever before letting kids back in.

I know that in both childcare facilities that I’ve been dealing with that you need to show vaccinations book at registration. I don’t know if this is compulsory or just individual crèche policies. Should be compulsory if it isn’t.

sydthebeat

while though that its a family member, but this is exactly how anti-vaxxers should be treated.
they should be ostracised from main society as their children are a danger to others.

pauldavis123

Surely your kid will be safe, it's vaccinated?

Can't see the problem.

iamwhoiam

pauldavis123 wrote: »

Surely your kid will be safe, it's vaccinated?

Can't see the problem.

The Ops baby is 4 months old so no is not fully vaccinated yet

sydthebeat

pauldavis123 wrote: »

Surely your kid will be safe, it's vaccinated?

Can't see the problem.

*facepalm*

did you read to the end of the OP ??

con___manx1

I can't belive these anti vaxers. Woulder will they get a vaccine for the corona virus if the pharma companies are able to make one.
If the answer is no their kids should be 100 percent banned from school until they get some sense.
A kid could loose limbs or die from mengitius in a short period. Anti vaxers are like flat earthers. Idiots

pauldavis123

sydthebeat wrote: »

*facepalm*

did you read to the end of the OP ??

Wont be fully vaccinated until 5, neither will the other kid.

So, keep them apart until 5?

jlm29

pauldavis123 wrote: »

Surely your kid will be safe, it's vaccinated?

Can't see the problem.

It’ll be safe when it’s five, yes.

Be right back

Thoie wrote: »

I don't have any advice about the relationship, but honestly, if you know what creche it is, when it reopens I'd send them an anonymous letter saying it's come to your attention that not all kids are vaccinated, and perhaps they might want to ask for letters from doctors or certificate of vaccinations or whatever before letting kids back in.

Sounds like what the OP should do.

storker

You're not overreacting; they're underreacting and you're right not to let your child near theirs. If they're so determined to take stance on this then let them own the consequences. These people are a scourge; undoing years of medical progress with their half-baked, uniformed, I-saw-it-on-YouTube-so-it-must-be-true bullsh1t, and in the process endangering their own child and the children of others.

Do not feel guilty about this. Ultimately you have a greater duty to your own child's health than to your brother's good opinion of you.

iamwhoiam

pauldavis123 wrote: »

Wont be fully vaccinated until 5, neither will the other kid.

So, keep them apart until 5?

Yes , absolutely to keep the baby safe

Princess Calla

pauldavis123 wrote: »

Surely your kid will be safe, it's vaccinated?

Can't see the problem.

Immunisation schedule is 13 months long. MMR isn't given until the fourth visit.

I would let the creche know tbh. I know it's hard as it's family but jesus every child in that crèche is at risk and the childminders too along with any pregnant mother.

I wouldn't let my children near his tbh even if they were cousins... I was absolutely livid when a relative of my oh visited with a coldsore when I'd a new born. The baby didn't leave my arms.. There was no baby cuddles, feck that a coldsore can cause death in a newborn.... People need to realise that their choices have consequences.

ec18

You need to let the creche and the rest of your family know, They have turned their child into a potential public health risk

Milly33

shocking and not that the creches do not check.. They should check it is'nt that difficult, I would imagine to do, after seeing that documentary about the creches it is no wonder..

joeysoap

In Australia he wouldn’t be let in a school. Should be the same here. Very selfish.

SmallgirlBigcity

Thanks everyone, I'm bowled over by the support. It's very reassuring. I've thought about informing the crèche, maybe I should. I'll give it some serious thought. I know it might seem excessive to wait until he's 5 but my GP told me he won't be fully protected against measles until he's received all vaccines and boosters which is when they're 5. So to be extra safe, I'm going to keep them apart until then. My brother's wife text me and said they're going to give him the MMR in the next year or so but I genuinely don't believe them. I think they're just saying that. They have lied about other things so they have form. For example, my brother specifically told me on the phone that the child had no vaccines and they lied to the creche. Then his wife text me saying he had some vaccines (just not the MMR) and that the crèche were aware of their choices and were fine with it. So I don't believe them that they're going to give him the MMR in the next year or so.

Milly33

It really is a lot to bare for you, but be sure and do whatever you feel is best for ye.. best of luck with all..

splinter65

pauldavis123 wrote: »

Wont be fully vaccinated until 5, neither will the other kid.

So, keep them apart until 5?

The OPs kid only needs to be with other vaccinated children so yes and well past 5. The brother and his wife have made this decision and they will have to accept the consequences as with every decision.

Lizardlegz

SmallgirlBigcity wrote: »

Thanks everyone, I'm bowled over by the support. It's very reassuring. I've thought about informing the crèche, maybe I should. I'll give it some serious thought. I know it might seem excessive to wait until he's 5 but my GP told me he won't be fully protected against measles until he's received all vaccines and boosters which is when they're 5. So to be extra safe, I'm going to keep them apart until then. My brother's wife text me and said they're going to give him the MMR in the next year or so but I genuinely don't believe them. I think they're just saying that. They have lied about other things so they have form. For example, my brother specifically told me on the phone that the child had no vaccines and they lied to the creche. Then his wife text me saying he had some vaccines (just not the MMR) and that the crèche were aware of their choices and were fine with it. So I don't believe them that they're going to give him the MMR in the next year or so.

From what you’ve told us they are not trustworthy at all. I wouldn’t believe a word they say. Ask to see the child’s immunisation card prior to letting your wee baby near his cousin. It’s awful sad but I’d be putting the health of child first. Even at 5... the mmr is only about 80% (I think) effective. So still a small chance of contracting measles from an affected and contagious child or adult. Mind yourself and your family x

bee06

Lizardlegz wrote: »

From what you’ve told us they are not trustworthy at all. I wouldn’t believe a word they say. Ask to see the child’s immunisation card prior to letting your wee baby near his cousin. It’s awful sad but I’d be putting the health of child first. Even at 5... the mmr is only about 80% (I think) effective. So still a small chance of contracting measles from an affected and contagious child or adult. Mind yourself and your family x

According to the HSE website

The full course of MMR vaccine offers good protection against measles for 99% of people, against rubella (German measles) for 95% of people and against mumps for 88% of people.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/immunisation/pubinfo/pcischedule/vpds/mmr/

shesty

SmallgirlBigcity wrote: »

Thanks, I'm so shocked that they didn't get their boy vaccinated. I asked how he is going to crèche and my brother said 'we just tell them he is vaccinated and they don't check'. I couldn't believe it.

They won't get away with that 'not checking' for too long - my little one's preschool wanted copies of all the kids vaccine books last September.It was a new thing in September, hadn't been asked of us for our first 2 years ago.

Also the school will eventually know because they will have to return a form with permission to give the MMR booster in Junior Infants.And if anything is ever wrong with the child, the first question asked of them by doctors will be have they their full vaccination schedule completed?Everytime I ring DDoc they ask that question.

You are not overreacting OP. And creches are hotbeds of germs, it will become an issue one way or other.The child will bring home everything, they are bad enough as it is even with vaccines.I certainly wouldn't bring my child near them until you have completed the 13 month programme of vaccines at the absolute minimum.

Tony EH

Family member is an anti-vaxer

Give him a book about Noel Browne and the vaccination program his instituted in this country to combat TB. We essentially had it wiped out in two generations, whereas before there wasn't a single family in Ireland that hadn't been affected by it in some way.

The same with MMR, which eradicated its target diseases and again, before it was instituted this country had an awful time with measles, mumps and rubella.

Anti-vaxers are a queer bunch altogether. Heads filled up with internet shite from stupid Americans.

splinter65

Tony EH wrote: »

Give him a book about Noel Browne and the vaccination program his instituted in this country to combat TB. We essentially had it wiped out in two generations, whereas before there wasn't a single family in Ireland that hadn't been affected by it in some way.

The same with MMR, which eradicated its target diseases and again, before it was instituted this country had an awful time with measles, mumps and rubella.

Anti-vaxers are a queer bunch altogether. Heads filled up with internet shite from stupid Americans.

Noel Browne is a nobody. Sharon on Facebook swears her daughter has narcolepsy after getting the vaccinations and that’s all he needs to know. If it’s on Facebook it must be true.

endacl

Can we agree to replace the term ‘anti-vaxxer’ with ‘idiot by choice’?

Guy:Incognito

Id be skeptical about them getting the MMR tbh. Isnt the MMR the anti vaxxers no 1 go to for evil vaccine? Sounds like shes just telling people (possibly only you at this stage) what she thinks they want to hear.

ijohhj

SmallgirlBigcity wrote: »

So I have a 4 month old baby and he recently has his 2nd round of vaccines. He didn't react well and spent the following 24 hours crying and sleeping a lot. I mentioned this to my brother who in passing said that his 4 year old son hasn't had any vaccines because he and his wife don't agree with them.

After thinking about this for about a day, I rang my brother to explain that as his son isn't vaccinated, I don't think it's safe for my son to be around him until my son has had all of his vaccines. My brother got very offended and hung up on me. I'm devastated because we haven't always got along but in the last few years, we had moved past any previous issues and we were getting along.

By the way, I didn't question his choices, I just explained that it's not safe for my son to be around an unvaccinated child. I also said that he and his wife should consider telling family members and close friends because I was completely unaware of this. Has I known, I wouldn't have had my son around his cousin when he was a newborn.

Anyway, my brother and his wife are extremely offended. They are hurt that I think their son is a danger to my son and they make the point that 'our son isn't anymore of a risk than anyone who hasn't had their boosters in recent years or parents who never had measles and didn't get vaccinations'. They also say that anyone aged over 45 hasn't had the MMR. I'm pretty sure this isn't accurate is it?

Even if it is, obviously everyone should still vaccinate their child to protect them. I spoke to my GP who explained that my son won't be fully protected against measles until he's had all boosters at the age of 5. So I'm not going to have my son around his cousin until then. Just looking for opinions on this and whether people think this is an overreaction on my part or not. Thanks.

There's no vaccination for ignorant.

strandroad

What your brother says about MMR is inaccurate. MMR is a combined vaccine for measles mumps rubella and as such is only 40+ years old, but individual vaccines for each were available years earlier. My parents had some of them already and they are 60+. He is probably taking his talking points for antivaxxer groups... You are right, he is wrong.

SmallgirlBigcity

Definitely. My brother said in a text to me and on the phone that the child didn't have any vaccines. And he said on the phone that the crèche didn't know. A day later i get a rehearsed text that they've obviously sent to other people who have questioned their decision and it says they've given him some vaccines just not the MMR which they plan to give when he's about 4. It also says the crèche knows and doesn't mind. It's definitely a lie. I think they give this story about him having some vaccines and planning to give him the MMR so people don't think they're completely nuts. It sounds better than staying they don't plan on giving him any vaccines...

strandroad

SmallgirlBigcity wrote: »

Definitely. My brother said in a text to me and on the phone that the child didn't have any vaccines. And he said on the phone that the crèche didn't know. A day later i get a rehearsed text that they've obviously sent to other people who have questioned their decision and it says they've given him some vaccines just not the MMR which they plan to give when he's about 4. It also says the crèche knows and doesn't mind. It's definitely a lie. I think they give this story about him having some vaccines and planning to give him the MMR so people don't think they're completely nuts. It sounds better than staying they don't plan on giving him any vaccines...

He is 4, there is no reason to delay MMR at all. You are right.

Calhoun

jlm29 wrote: »

anti vaxxers are a danger to society. I personally think unvaccinated children (those who don’t have a medical reason not to be vaccinated) shouldn’t be allowed to attend schools or childcare.
You’re not wrong here, they are.

I Probably feel a bit more strongly about it after watching the world grind to a halt while we all hope someone develops a vaccine for covid-19

This is a great answer, I would be very wary of letting my kids around anti-vaxxers until they had all their shots.

This is an issue caused by the OPs brother, from recent posts I can see its only the "MMR" they don't have as if that's ok. There are some horrible outcomes out there for people who get measles or mumps I believe sterility being one of them.

I really dislike anti-vaxxers also not only because of the recent pandemic but my eldest has autism and that is their go to misinformation when it comes to them. Its also the fact they are so selfish, their parents who remember the impact of not vaccinating so made sure they were sorted are now denying their own kids the same protection.

Lizardlegz

bee06 wrote: »

According to the HSE website

The full course of MMR vaccine offers good protection against measles for 99% of people, against rubella (German measles) for 95% of people and against mumps for 88% of people.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/immunisation/pubinfo/pcischedule/vpds/mmr/

Apologies bee you’re right. I was only gestimating from memory.. but CDC website says 97% protection from measles and 88% from mumps. That’s still 3 % more risk than I’d like and 12% more risk for mumps than I’d like for a little boy who could become infertile from mumps.

Lizardlegz

bee06 wrote: »

According to the HSE website

The full course of MMR vaccine offers good protection against measles for 99% of people, against rubella (German measles) for 95% of people and against mumps for 88% of people.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/immunisation/pubinfo/pcischedule/vpds/mmr/

Apologies bee you’re right. I was only gestimating from memory.. but CDC website says 97% protection from measles and 88% from mumps. That’s still 3 % more risk than I’d like and 12% more risk for mumps than I’d like for a little boy who could become infertile from mumps.

Bubbaclaus

SmallgirlBigcity wrote: »

Thanks, I'm so shocked that they didn't get their boy vaccinated. I asked how he is going to crèche and my brother said 'we just tell them he is vaccinated and they don't check'. I couldn't believe it.

I assume you have reported this public health threat? The fact its your brother doesn't matter.

pauldavis123

pauldavis123 wrote: »

Surely your kid will be safe, it's vaccinated?

Can't see the problem.

There is a few myths about vaccines that still permeate our society.

The big one is the idea that vaccines are perfect. That - as you suggest above - "if your child gets vaccinated then it is "safe" from the disease(s) in question".

This is not true. If you are exposed to a disease - especially one as infectious and harmful as measles - there is still an infection risk.

The success of vaccines therefore is not based on them making any given individual immune. But that they reduce the risk anyone will come in contact with the disease at all because so many people are vaccinated. This is what you will hear called "Herd Immunity".

So if you are aware that someone is not vaccinated - then simply keeping away from them until you are 5 and have all your shots - is not enough. If that someone gets the disease the exposure risk can override the benefit of the vaccination.

Further as others have pointed out there is the risk of exposure by unvaccinated children to those who for whatever reason _cant_ be. So when we all vaccinate against a disease we are not just doing it for ourselves - but for those people too who can be infected - and for those other people who need access to hospitals but lose it because infected people take up bed and hospital resources.

Finally the more people who are infected the more probability we have that any given disease can mutate. Viruses and bacteria mutate all the time. The last thing we want is any mutation that ends up rendering our vaccinations ineffective. Rather what we want is to reach such a perfect level of vaccination that we effectively eradicate the disease entirely - at which point no one would need to be vaccinated against it ever again. Which is the best outcome as the reality is vaccinations _do_ come with both health risks and costs over a population. So the end game is to reach a point where they are defunct.

It is a whole house of cards. So you can understand how emotive it can be to hear people have refused them for often invalid "personal" reasons based on poor information and scaremongering conspiracy theorists.

listermint

endacl wrote: »

Can we agree to replace the term ‘anti-vaxxer’ with ‘idiot by choice’?

No it should be replaced with criminally negligent.

People like this are fine to keep their choice but they are not fine to use the same public services as everyone else. They shouldn't be allowed near a school or a crèche. And it should be illegal to do what they are doing.

They are actively engaged in restoring expired diseases to the country. It's akin to biological weaponry

pwurple

They're writing their own vaccine schedule too? Deciding when and which to complete?

That just makes no sense whatsoever. The vaccine schedule itself is tested for efficacy and safety. Whatever random dates/age they pick, the vaccine may not be as effective. They are changing too much there. Age, weight, order of the jabs etc.


It is utterly selfish of them to do this. Immunocompromised children, adults and the elderly depend on us all protecting them.

FitzElla

SmallgirlBigcity wrote: »

Even if it is, obviously everyone should still vaccinate their child to protect them. I spoke to my GP who explained that my son won't be fully protected against measles until he's had all boosters at the age of 5. So I'm not going to have my son around his cousin until then. Just looking for opinions on this and whether people think this is an overreaction on my part or not. Thanks.

Absolutely not an over reaction and you are right in what you said and are doing. Can you imagine if you child caught measles from his cousin because you were worried about offending your brother? You have to protect the health of your child.

As others have said what he is doing is a public health risk and I would be letting the creche know as well. Not every child can get a vaccine, and not every vaccine is 100% effective which is why it is so important for the herd immunity to be in place. Anti-vaxxers are directly responsible for the suffering and deaths of children that are completely avoidable.

Dravokivich

iamwhoiam wrote: »

This is absolutely scandalous . There could be immuno compromised children in that creche . I personally think the creches should be checking the children’s vacation record . They are all in a book and stamped . Shocking behaviour by your brother and I wouldn’t be bringing my baby to his house at all

A booklet isn't much of a record. And is no use if it's been lost. My son has had all of his and the booster in school, but I don't think I've a means of proving it.

jlm29

Dravokivich wrote: »

A booklet isn't much of a record. And is no use if it's been lost. My son has had all of his and the booster in school, but I don't think I've a means of proving it.

I never got our book stamped, but the gp practice will print out a record of all jabs no bother.