Corona and State exams

JDMC2

I have a daughter busting her ass studying for the LC.
She is totally focused on 5th of June.
Initially (for about 5 minutes) she was very disappointed that everyone received full marks for orals....only because she is fluent in Irish. However, in fairness to her, she said there are bigger things to worry about and hasn’t mentioned it since.
I really hope the LC will go ahead as scheduled (possibly at the cost of the JC] and firmly believe that if it’s pushed out further than June that it will cause further heartache to the students......this is contrary to many people’s belief that, due to the extra stress of the virus, that LC should be postponed.
Regardless, whatever the HSE and SEC decide, it won’t suit everyone but it will be in the best interests of the majority.

What does anyone else think.

Rufeo

JDMC2 wrote: »

I have a daughter busting her ass studying for the LC.
She is totally focused on 5th of June.
Initially (for about 5 minutes) she was very disappointed that everyone received full marks for orals....only because she is fluent in Irish. However, in fairness to her, she said there are bigger things to worry about and hasn’t mentioned it since.
I really hope the LC will go ahead as scheduled (possibly at the cost of the JC] and firmly believe that if it’s pushed out further than June that it will cause further heartache to the students......this is contrary to many people’s belief that, due to the extra stress of the virus, that LC should be postponed.
Regardless, whatever the HSE and SEC decide, it won’t suit everyone but it will be in the best interests of the majority.

What does anyone else think.

Well they postponed the Olympics.

Carodh

And they start on the 3rd of June so she’s focusing on the wrong date.

JDMC2

And they start on the 3rd of June so she’s focusing on the wrong date.

Thanks Carodh, I’ll let her know ��

LessOutragePlz

According to Leo they'll going ahead by hook or by crook.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/1128166/

ILoveYourVibes

JDMC2 wrote: »

I have a daughter busting her ass studying for the LC.
She is totally focused on 5th of June.
Initially (for about 5 minutes) she was very disappointed that everyone received full marks for orals....only because she is fluent in Irish. However, in fairness to her, she said there are bigger things to worry about and hasn’t mentioned it since.
I really hope the LC will go ahead as scheduled (possibly at the cost of the JC] and firmly believe that if it’s pushed out further than June that it will cause further heartache to the students......this is contrary to many people’s belief that, due to the extra stress of the virus, that LC should be postponed.
Regardless, whatever the HSE and SEC decide, it won’t suit everyone but it will be in the best interests of the majority.

What does anyone else think.

There is no way schools and LC centers are going to risk opening over the summer.

All major events are being cancelled.

I don't know what SHOULD happen as i can't asses the risks etc. They would have to find an alternative to all students taking the LC in the same site though.

It definitely would spread the virus . You can't Guarantee social distancing and that students won't touch the same objects for so many students. Accidents happen.

I do think they need to start being honest and realistic though. If they intend the roll out the exams on the 5th of june they need to explain HOW.

And if they haven't come up with HOW they need to be honest with themselves and realize no magic answer is going to come down from the sky and give a realistic date.

Honesty is the best policy and certainty.

ILoveYourVibes

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

According to Leo they'll going ahead by hook or by crook.

Ok but what does that actually mean?

What are they actually going to do?

hairyprincess

I have a daughter in the same position as yours OP. I honestly don’t believe they will go ahead. I think they will ultimately give them a predicated grade. Yes it won’t suit everyone but this is a seriously unprecedented situation, they have to do what is best at the given time.
They won’t make this decision until at least the beginning of May imo. It’s better to keep the students busy focusing.

Sirsok

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Ok but what does that actually mean?

What are they actually going to do?

Online exams. Everyone gets max results as a result of being at home studying hard during lockdown and Ireland announce a new space program in December with the teenage geniuses at the helm.

Atlantic Dawn

There's zero chance the state exams will go ahead in June. Slight chance in September.

garyskeepers

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

There's zero chance the state exams will go ahead in June. Slight chance in September.

well thats not true at all

Atlantic Dawn

garyskeepers wrote: »

well thats not true at all

2 months almost to the day they are due to start, no chance.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Whatever about this year the Dept of Education needs to have a long hard think about the leaving certificate going forward.
It's barely changed in at least 50 years but society has and it has just turned into a demoralising points race that seems to take over young people's lives for at least a year.
Now, because of coronavirus, we fínd ourselves in a position where is no fair way of measuring each student's ability following 14 years at school.

This should be a wake up call to review the whole set up and this ridiculous points race.

The chan chan man

Veronica Inexpensive Concrete wrote: »

Whatever about this year the Dept of Education needs to have a long hard think about the leaving certificate going forward.
It's barely changed in at least 50 years but society has and it has just turned into a demoralising points race that seems to take over young people's lives for at least a year.
Now, because of coronavirus, we fínd ourselves in a position where is no fair way of measuring each student's ability following 14 years at school.

This should be a wake up call to review the whole set up and this ridiculous points race.

You failed back in the day didn’t you..

c68zapdsm5i1ru

You've found me out:o

No, I was one of the ones who took it seriously but it wasn't such a huge big deal when I did it. And the whole points race thing hadn't taken on the ridi ulous importance it holds today.

mirrorwall14

I think some fudging is going to have to happen. Junior cert is unrealistic I believe.

Suggest maybe they do English and maths with all levels sitting it on different days to allow for extra spacing in schools also using local hotels/gaa halls as necessary.

Then use those results with a combination of junior cert and maybe interviews for college entry and any alternative within Ireland eg PLC, Garda etc

Also offer free repeats and resits next year for those who wish too

I don’t think predicted grades will be accepted by parents/students and would result in court cases

Ace2007

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I think some fudging is going to have to happen. Junior cert is unrealistic I believe.

Suggest maybe they do English and maths with all levels sitting it on different days to allow for extra spacing in schools also using local hotels/gaa halls as necessary.

Then use those results with a combination of junior cert and maybe interviews for college entry and any alternative within Ireland eg PLC, Garda etc

Also offer free repeats and resits next year for those who wish too

I don’t think predicted grades will be accepted by parents/students and would result in court cases

Why English and Maths? What if your not good at them?

What if your repeating and not doing those subjects

Want if your repeating and home schooling.

If you missed out of your chosen course last year by 5 points - how do they give you makes this year? Just assume the person won’t improve?

The whole situation is unprecedented, imo the only solution is to scrap the JC (but wait a few weeks so that students still have something to do without driving those at home mad with boredom) and push the LC to say October and work with the colleges to start first year in say January - would mean more hours and maybe no reading break etc, but at least you can get people in. Majority of first year courses could probably finish up on july, and then we get back on schedule next year.

If the virus was still around in October then just have to scrap it I feel, or have two versions in 2021.

The LC is only half the issue - the other issue is the colleges as mentioned above.

mirrorwall14

Ace2007 wrote: »

Why English and Maths? What if your not good at them?

What if your repeating and not doing those subjects

Want if your repeating and home schooling.

If you missed out of your chosen course last year by 5 points - how do they give you makes this year? Just assume the person won’t improve?

The whole situation is unprecedented, imo the only solution is to scrap the JC (but wait a few weeks so that students still have something to do without driving those at home mad with boredom) and push the LC to say October and work with the colleges to start first year in say January - would mean more hours and maybe no reading break etc, but at least you can get people in. Majority of first year courses could probably finish up on july, and then we get back on schedule next year.

If the virus was still around in October then just have to scrap it I feel, or have two versions in 2021.

The LC is only half the issue - the other issue is the colleges as mentioned above.

Because it’s better than nothing. And pushing it back to September/October doesn’t fix things if we are still in trouble then. It also affects all the other year groups as opposed to one. No solution is going to be a good one

silverharp

the schools will be empty , they could make the whole school the exam centre, have 5 kids per classroom, stagger times etc.

History Queen

silverharp wrote: »

the schools will be empty , they could make the whole school the exam centre, have 5 kids per classroom, stagger times etc.

That won't work as many classrooms are already in use as special centres for students with reasonable accommodations such as needing a scribe. (Although maybe if junior cert didn't run at same time as leaving certificate there would be enough room?)

Moving exams to September/October won't work as teachers are the examiners and the correctors. You can't do that while teaching other classes.

I cannot see an easy solution but I really hope for the sake of the students that if there isany way of havinv the exams happen in June that mountains are moved to accommodate this.

I'm often critical of the Department and the SEC but even I don't doubt that they will do their best to have the exams run with the least amount of additional stress and disruption to the students.

I worry though (and am guilty myself) of engaging in endless speculation. It can only be adding to the stress of the situation for students. I received a PM last night froma student on boards who i have previously engaged with on the forum spouting absolute nonsense about what would happen as if it were fact.The same student is clearly very stressed but has no idea how the exams are run. If they sent the same message to other students as they sent me students would be alarmed and panicked.

We need to try now, more thanever to supportiur young people. My own advice to students is to continue aiming for June, every resource willbe thrown at making it happen and current best bet is that that is when it will happen, albeit likely in changed form.

Best wishes to all students and their families caught up in this. I sincerely hope for a favourably outcome for you all.

silverharp

History Queen wrote: »

That won't work as many classrooms are already in use as special centres for students with reasonable accommodations such as needing a scribe. (Although maybe if junior cert didn't run at same time as leaving certificate there would be enough room?)

the primary schools are empty so they could be used. My son who is doing his JC this year, his school would be operating normally (primary and secondary) so don't get that a whole school can be tied up with special cases, get creative and you can use admin offices etc. where there is a will there is a way.

ILoveYourVibes

silverharp wrote: »

the primary schools are empty so they could be used. My son who is doing his JC this year, his school would be operating normally (primary and secondary) so don't get that a whole school can be tied up with special cases, get creative and you can use admin offices etc. where there is a will there is a way.

But you see its not a matter of will. Its getting permission. And it has to be on medical advice.

Remember the schools and colleges didn't shut down the govt shut them down. And only the govt can give them permission to open again for any reason.

SuperRabbit

They should definitely cancel the junior cert, that should go without saying. Yes, teenagers can and have died of this, is it worth the risk for a pointless exam? Just postpone it

The leaving... if there is any hope that college can be started in October then we need the leaving, don't we...

ILoveYourVibes

SuperRabbit wrote: »

They should definitely cancel the junior cert, that should go without saying. Yes, teenagers can and have died of this, is it worth the risk for a pointless exam? Just postpone it

The leaving... if there is any hope that college can be started in October then we need the leaving, don't we...

The leaving should be given priority.

However i don't know that college will be starting in sept. Maybe Oct /Nov.

Maybe i am wrong and this will all be gone in a month.

I have exams i am supposed to take in may so l myself want to get them over with.

silverharp

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

But you see its not a matter of will. Its getting permission. And it has to be on medical advice.

Remember the schools and colleges didn't shut down the govt shut them down. And only the govt can give them permission to open again for any reason.

I know that, it doesn't change anything. It will be June , there is no way the general economy will be closed down by then anyway. My guess is that first week in May I will be back in the office with people staying home by exception

there is a general question about would everyone be happy doing exams if they had not been in school for 3 months ? but hay nothing is perfect would be a badge of honour to get good grades this year.

History Queen

silverharp wrote: »

the primary schools are empty so they could be used. My son who is doing his JC this year, his school would be operating normally (primary and secondary) so don't get that a whole school can be tied up with special cases, get creative and you can use admin offices etc. where there is a will there is a way.

Sorry I should have been clearer. I'm speaking as a teacher using my own school as an example. Admin offices are used as special centres every year. Two years ago, such was the demand for space, that even the deputy principals office was used. It depends on the school and the needs of a particular cohort in a specific year.

Inspector Coptoor

Veronica Inexpensive Concrete wrote: »

Whatever about this year the Dept of Education needs to have a long hard think about the leaving certificate going forward.
It's barely changed in at least 50 years but society has and it has just turned into a demoralising points race that seems to take over young people's lives for at least a year.
Now, because of coronavirus, we f ourselves in a position where is no fair way of measuring each student's ability following 14 years at school.

This should be a wake up call to review the whole set up and this ridiculous points race.

The points race is created by the colleges and the CAO, not by the Leaving Cert itself.

The number of changes to the LC and how assessments have been done over the last few years has been staggering.
More and more subjects are bringing in CA or project work, in languages the oral exams have never been worth as much.

This idea that the Leaving Cert is a rote learning exercise just grinds my gears.

Most exam questions start at the bottom of Blooms Taxonomy with a bit of recall/memory work and from there move into higher order and more critical thinking.

It’s not perfect by any means but it’s the best and fairest we have.

The one thing that could be done to stop the hype would be to ban the print Media doing their coverage in June and when results come out in August - there’s just no need for it.

Sammy2012

silverharp wrote: »

the primary schools are empty so they could be used. My son who is doing his JC this year, his school would be operating normally (primary and secondary) so don't get that a whole school can be tied up with special cases, get creative and you can use admin offices etc. where there is a will there is a way.

I had heard a rumour that they were going to use primary schools to make more centres. You could use all primary schools and get the primary teachers to act as superintendents. I don't see why this couldn't be done. I'm a primary teacher and would be willing to go to work and help out with this. My classroom is small and might only take 3 pupils to abide by social distancing rules but I'd every primary school was used it would take alot of students.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

The points race is created by the colleges and the CAO, not by the Leaving Cert itself.

The number of changes to the LC and how assessments have been done over the last few years has been staggering.
More and more subjects are bringing in CA or project work, in languages the oral exams have never been worth as much.

This idea that the Leaving Cert is a rote learning exercise just grinds my gears.

Most exam questions start at the bottom of Blooms Taxonomy with a bit of recall/memory work and from there move into higher order and more critical thinking.

It’s not perfect by any means but it’s the best and fairest we have.

The one thing that could be done to stop the hype would be to ban the print Media doing their coverage in June and when results come out in August - there’s just no need for it.

Yes fair enough, I agree there have been attempts to introduce more practical elements etc and it's not the Dept turning it into a one size fits all college entry exam.

But that's what it has defaulted into and I think it now requires a fundamental review and overhaul.

Totally agree that the media have a big role to play. I cannot stand those yearly photos of students jumping in the air and write ups of students who got 650 points or whatever. They're just adding to the pressure and drama.

silverharp

Sammy2012 wrote: »

I had heard a rumour that they were going to use primary schools to make more centres. You could use all primary schools and get the primary teachers to act as superintendents. I don't see why this couldn't be done. I'm a primary teacher and would be willing to go to work and help out with this. My classroom is small and might only take 3 pupils to abide by social distancing rules but I'd every primary school was used it would take alot of students.

I'd agree, plus every sports club and sports centre with a gym hall can be used, RDS etc. There tends to be a lot of professional exams on in early June so I'd guess they have been postponed so their centres would be available too.
Its one of those national effort things, loads of people would want to help get the exams over the line.

Sammy2012

silverharp wrote: »

I'd agree, plus every sports club and sports centre with a gym hall can be used, RDS etc. There tends to be a lot of professional exams on in early June so I'd guess they have been postponed so their centres would be available too.
Its one of those national effort things, loads of people would want to help get the exams over the line.

Hubby was supposed to be doing ACCA exams in June and they have cancelled that sitting 2 weeks ago. If they really wanted to have them go ahead there is definitely a will to make it happen. All of the students would only have to sit Maths and English as the others would have smaller numbers taking them. If we are back to the restrictions from last week by then they should be able to have them go ahead. Like you say is should be a national effort but let's just say having had years of dealing with the Department of Ed they don't engage in joined up thinking a lot of the time.

ILoveYourVibes

silverharp wrote: »

My guess is that first week in May I will be back in the office with people staying home by exception

I think you are being wildly optimistic. But it would be wonderful if you were correct.

JustAThought

Maybe we need to think laterally about this and instead of having a exam based LC for this year average the grade you would get on the average of your results in each exam over the past 2 years.

The best solution would be for them to relax entirely the entry points for all colleges and universities - and for next year have open entry to all university courses supplemented perhaps by having sat the core subjects required eg chemistry/ biology/ for a science degree etc. This would take the huge pressure off the students and make the LC mostly redundant as all it does is mostly supports the points race. If everyone got a C or a B based on their past exams and there was no points pressure for universities I don’t think for one year that the system would fall apart.

ILoveYourVibes

JustAThought wrote: »

Maybe we need to think laterally about this and instead of having a exam based LC for this year average the grade you would get on the average of your results in each exam over the past 2 years.

But have every school given exams over the past 2 years?

I don't remember mine doing this ..we only did the mocks.

blackcard

Sammy2012 wrote: »

I had heard a rumour that they were going to use primary schools to make more centres. You could use all primary schools and get the primary teachers to act as superintendents. I don't see why this couldn't be done. I'm a primary teacher and would be willing to go to work and help out with this. My classroom is small and might only take 3 pupils to abide by social distancing rules but I'd every primary school was used it would take alot of students.

You also have large function rooms and conference centres in hotels where exams can be held. You can have primary school teachers,the army and local authority workers who can supervise the exams. Answer sheets could be placed on desks say 12 hours in advance of the exams. Exam papers could be left in sealed envelopes hours before exams start. Rooms can be sterilised between exams. Exams could start at say 10.30 am. Public and private buses, with reduced amount of passengers to take account of social distancing, could work in shifts to ferry students.
Not ideal by any means but none of the other options are ideal either.

ILoveYourVibes

blackcard wrote: »

You also have large function rooms and conference centres in hotels where exams can be held. You can have primary school teachers,the army and local authority workers who can supervise the exams. Answer sheets could be placed on desks say 12 hours in advance of the exams. Exam papers could be left in sealed envelopes hours before exams start. Rooms can be sterilised between exams. Exams could start at say 10.30 am. Public and private buses, with reduced amount of passengers to take account of social distancing, could work in shifts to ferry students.
Not ideal by any means but none of the other options are ideal either.

its doable

blackcard

JustAThought wrote: »

Maybe we need to think laterally about this and instead of having a exam based LC for this year average the grade you would get on the average of your results in each exam over the past 2 years.

The best solution would be for them to relax entirely the entry points for all colleges and universities - and for next year have open entry to all university courses supplemented perhaps by having sat the core subjects required eg chemistry/ biology/ for a science degree etc. This would take the huge pressure off the students and make the LC mostly redundant as all it does is mostly supports the points race. If everyone got a C or a B based on their past exams and there was no points pressure for universities I don’t think for one year that the system would fall apart.

I am afraid that this is totally inappropriate. I have a teacher who sets tough exams versus someone else who sets easy exams.

ILoveYourVibes

blackcard wrote: »

I am afraid that this is totally inappropriate. I have a teacher who sets tough exams versus someone else who sets easy exams.

Yes. And some teachers set NO exams.

Sammy2012

blackcard wrote: »

You also have large function rooms and conference centres in hotels where exams can be held. You can have primary school teachers,the army and local authority workers who can supervise the exams. Answer sheets could be placed on desks say 12 hours in advance of the exams. Exam papers could be left in sealed envelopes hours before exams start. Rooms can be sterilised between exams. Exams could start at say 10.30 am. Public and private buses, with reduced amount of passengers to take account of social distancing, could work in shifts to ferry students.
Not ideal by any means but none of the other options are ideal either.

Not ideal but doable if they started planning for it now. Nobody would mind helping out to do this. You should send your ideas to the department. Or to your local politician.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

blackcard wrote: »

You also have large function rooms and conference centres in hotels where exams can be held. You can have primary school teachers,the army and local authority workers who can supervise the exams. Answer sheets could be placed on desks say 12 hours in advance of the exams. Exam papers could be left in sealed envelopes hours before exams start. Rooms can be sterilised between exams. Exams could start at say 10.30 am. Public and private buses, with reduced amount of passengers to take account of social distancing, could work in shifts to ferry students.
Not ideal by any means but none of the other options are ideal either.

I honestly think that could freak already nervous students out. Doing the leaving is stressful enough. Having to do it under those circumstances, and not having been in school for 3 months just doesn't sound OK to me.
I think the Dept need to think more creatively and find a way to deal, if necessary, with not being able to hold the leaving cert this June.

RoryMac

Veronica Inexpensive Concrete wrote: »

I honestly think that could freak already nervous students out. Doing the leaving is stressful enough. Having to do it under those circumstances, and not having been in school for 3 months just doesn't sound OK to me.
I think the Dept need to think more creatively and find a way to deal, if necessary, with not being able to hold the leaving cert this June.

The students will need to deal with it, it might not be ideal for them but it's an unprecedented situation. Any leaving cert students have access to their teachers online at the moment and will have 3 months uninterrupted to get their revision done.

Some will complain no matter what solution is put forward but if at all possible holding the exams on schedule should be done

silverharp

I think it would be easy enough to be humane about it , especially with weaker students in terms of marking. At the end of the day there is a grading curve.

A solution that occurred to me, stretch out the timetable so that that there can be alternate day exams for LC and JC , have exams on a Sat or Sunday or even have add a third slot in a day. All primary teachers are around to be an additional pool of support.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

RoryMac wrote: »

The students will need to deal with it, it might not be ideal for them but it's an unprecedented situation. Any leaving cert students have access to their teachers online at the moment and will have 3 months uninterrupted to get their revision done.

Some will complain no matter what solution is put forward but if at all possible holding the exams on schedule should be done

Ideally yes, but turning them into some kind of military operation with masked supervisors, soldiers handing out papers and special coaches that students are hurried on and off is far far from ideal circumstances in which to have to sit an important exam. I think there must be better ways and civil servants and teachers groups need rd to come together and do a bit of lateral thinking.

blackcard

blackcard wrote: »

You also have large function rooms and conference centres in hotels where exams can be held. You can have primary school teachers,the army and local authority workers who can supervise the exams. Answer sheets could be placed on desks say 12 hours in advance of the exams. Exam papers could be left in sealed envelopes hours before exams start. Rooms can be sterilised between exams. Exams could start at say 10.30 am. Public and private buses, with reduced amount of passengers to take account of social distancing, could work in shifts to ferry students.
Not ideal by any means but none of the other options are ideal either.

I have thought a bit more about this and a full risk assessment would have to be carried out in advance. Special arrangements would have to be made for vulnerable students such as those with asthma. They may need to be driven to special locations by a parent or trusted alternative. There are around 60, 000 doing the leaving certificate so maybe 1000 vulnerable students.
In relation to ordinary students, you might have to put markers at 2 m centres to keep pupils at the correct distance apart. The bus would have to be taped off to ensure that the nearest seats were 2 m apart. First student goes to the back and so on until the bus is 'full'. Driver gets on then. On arrival, bus driver gets off first and then offloading starts from the front. Bus is then sterilised and the taping on the bus altered so that the next set of passengers do not sit in the same seat.
Similar arrangements would have to be made for the remainder of the day. It is possible that it could be done with little risk involved. Army and guards to assist in controlling. Obviously the biggest issue would be the willingness of students to comply with the procedures.

893bet

With proper protocol in place it should be possible. I.e students spaced properly. Everything on the students desk before the enter the hall to avoid interactions between students and supervisors. No one leaves early, controlled exit from the hall line by line etc.

I did see in China a football pitch converted to an exam hall. Weather in Ireland Maybe an issue!

Beasty

Junior Cert dropped altogether this year - every 3rd year to get a Certificate of Completion. Schools to separately issue certificate indicating their assessment of the child's academic performance