New found respect for teachers?

gitterbug

I’ve noticed a lot of posts lately from parents struggling to home school their kids.

Will they finally get it?! Just because you went to school doesn’t mean you can teach.. Is teaching really a handy number?

Well done to all the teachers that have moved out of their traditional teaching role to something new and unknown.

No one will ever understand the time, effort or commitment this is taking. Be kind to one another everyone is doing the best they can. ❤️

TheValeyard

To be fair, some of those clips have been hilarious

maneno

gitterbug wrote: »

I’ve noticed a lot of posts lately from parents struggling to home school their kids.

Will they finally get it?! Just because you went to school doesn’t mean you can teach.. Is teaching really a handy number?

Well done to all the teachers that have moved out of their traditional teaching role to something new and unknown.

No one will ever understand the time, effort or commitment this is taking. Be kind to one another everyone is doing the best they can. ❤️

Not to be rude or anything but that’s what you are trained to do? You will struggle if you were to do a job that you don’t have expertise in,that said teachers do a good job

False Prophet

gitterbug wrote: »

I’ve noticed a lot of posts lately from parents struggling to home school their kids.

Will they finally get it?! Just because you went to school doesn’t mean you can teach.. Is teaching really a handy number?

You are comparing apples and oranges.
Teachers get training to be teachers and get paid to do the job.
Teachers also you would hope improve over time with experience.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

gitterbug wrote: »

I’ve noticed a lot of posts lately from parents struggling to home school their kids.

Will they finally get it?! Just because you went to school doesn’t mean you can teach.. Is teaching really a handy number?

Well done to all the teachers that have moved out of their traditional teaching role to something new and unknown.

No one will ever understand the time, effort or commitment this is taking. Be kind to one another everyone is doing the best they can. ❤️

Teaching children as a group in a structured classroom setting under normal circumstances with supports and staff is a hell of a lot easier than a parent who's at home.

Teachers are trained to teach. Do anyone else's job tomorrow untrained and you'd struggle too.

Parents might currently be working from home trying to do their own jobs, teach a full day's schoolwork (with home distractions) along with the usual running of a home as well as maybe shopping and caring for elderly relatives and neighbours.

Not comparable and yes some will struggle but what do you mean by 'will they finally get it'??

Teachers seem to vary widely too, I have three students at home.

One excellent teacher consistently assigning and grading work daily, another is doing online lessons and assessments regularly.

Then there's the teacher who's 'new role' consisted entirely of printing a one page worksheet with work listed for the whole next month, but on the bright side I'm sure she will have plenty of time for contact tracing now though.

rainbowtrout

maneno wrote: »

Not to be rude or anything but that’s what you are trained to do? You will struggle if you were to do a job that you don’t have expertise in,that said teachers do a good job

A lot of the general public, as I'm sure you well know, spend their time bitching about teachers and what a cushy number we have and anyone could do it, and their little angel is perfect, no couldn't be their child that is the problem, it's always the teacher.

Now some are finding out that it is quite difficult to keep a child engaged on different tasks everyday. Nobody is expecting parents to become experts in education overnight but they might appreciate that it's not just about rocking up to a classroom and it just magically happens.

rainbowtrout

Lylah Elegant Railing wrote: »

Teaching children as a group in a structured classroom setting under normal circumstances with supports and staff is a hell of a lot easier than a parent who's at home.

Teachers are trained to teach. Do anyone else's job tomorrow untrained and you'd struggle too.

Parents might currently be working from home trying to do their own jobs, teach a full day's schoolwork (with home distractions) along with the usual running of a home as well as maybe shopping and caring for elderly relatives and neighbours.

Not comparable and yes some will struggle but what do you mean by 'will they finally get it'??

Teachers seem to vary widely too, I have three students at home.

One excellent teacher consistently assigning and grading work daily, another is doing online lessons and assessments regularly.

Then there's the teacher who's 'new role' consisted entirely of printing a one page worksheet with work listed for the whole next month, but on the bright side I'm sure she will have plenty of time for contact tracing now though.

Or maybe she has small kids at home that she has to look after, seems that you will allow for parents that can't devote time to their kids because they are working from home, but not teachers.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Or maybe she has small kids at home that she has to look after, seems that you will allow for parents that can't devote time to their kids because they are working from home, but not teachers.

No she doesn't but its nice to see that some teachers making a genuine effort to continue educating and putting hours in.

However smugly posting about parents who are struggling and statements like 'will they finally get it' helps nobody. As another poster said its like comparing apples and oranges.

gitterbug

Lylah Elegant Railing wrote: »

No she doesn't but its nice to see that some teachers making a genuine effort to continue educating and putting hours in.

However smugly posting about parents who are struggling and statements like 'will they finally get it' helps nobody. As another poster said its like comparing apples and oranges.

Hi Lylah Elegant Railing,

This post was not meant as a “smug” post. People have been tearing teachers down for years about their cushy jobs for years. I was simply commenting that now parents are becoming more responsible for their own children’s learning, it will give them a better understanding of how “cushy” our job really is.

gitterbug

False Prophet wrote: »

You are comparing apples and oranges.
Teachers get training to be teachers and get paid to do the job.
Teachers also you would hope improve over time with experience.

I’m not comparing parents efforts to help educate their children. Anything parent do will be highly beneficial for their children. This is not ideal. I was just saying, this job is not as handy as it has been out to be.

gitterbug

False Prophet wrote: »

You are comparing apples and oranges.
Teachers get training to be teachers and get paid to do the job.
Teachers also you would hope improve over time with experience.

I’m not comparing parents efforts to help educate their children. Anything parent do will be highly beneficial for their children. This is not ideal. I was just saying, this job is not as handy as it has been out to be.

jimmers23

I am a part time teacher, but also a parent to a child with disabilities. I am assigning work to non exam classes, putting up the answers, recording who does/ does not submit work. I am marking exam class work and providing feedback, all of which before was attainable in my part time role in school. Now I find myself highly stressed as I feel I am not fulfilling either role adequately.. It is tough going.

gitterbug

jimmers23 wrote: »

I am a part time teacher, but also a parent to a child with disabilities. I am assigning work to non exam classes, putting up the answers, recording who does/ does not submit work. I am marking exam class work and providing feedback, all of which before was attainable in my part time role in school. Now I find myself highly stressed as I feel I am not fulfilling either role adequately.. It is tough going.

Hi Jimmers,

This doesn’t help but sounds like your doing all you can! Online teaching can be harder as teachers have access to you 24/7 and vice versa. Some days you will do lots and other you won’t! Also, just thinking out loud.. are you going the same amount of work as you would normally give in class? Sometimes we might students can do more than the can, it’s an adjustment not having a teacher guide them through.

Treppen

:pac: Jeez first time in history the Teaching and Lecturing forum nearly got away with 1 genuine compliment from a non-teacher without being pounced on.

Nearly...

Thanks anyway gitterbug

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Treppen wrote: »

:pac: Jeez first time in history the Teaching and Lecturing forum nearly got away with 1 genuine compliment from a non-teacher without being pounced on.

Nearly...

Thanks anyway gitterbug

Pretty sure gitterbug is a teacher too.......says so in the posts on this thread.

Treppen

Lylah Elegant Railing wrote: »

Pretty sure gitterbug is a teacher too.......says so in the posts on this thread.

Giz a quote to justify your statement.

km79

“How are you enjoying your extended holidays ? You must have nothing for doing”

In short no

Rodney Bathgate

Teacher talking about new found respect for teachers? More like thanks whoring.

km79

I can this thread shockingly will not end well
The after hours brigade are coming
“Sure isn’t that their job “

Why were we clapping for nurses doing their job so ?

Again to answer thread title
No
And there never will be

Treppen

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Teacher talking about new found respect for teachers? More like thanks whoring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYOZ3IzRaf4

Purefrank128

I am not a teacher.

I have a lot of respect for teachers.

It is not, however, new found.

august12

I can't understand all this bashing of people's professions especially teachers. In any job, there are good and bad, be it teaching, nursing, construction, plumbing, public sector etc. There are really diligent, conscientious hard working people who will go the extra mile and equally the people who do sweet damn all and in some cases especially the public sector where no one seems to be reprimanded for underperformance and in most cases will be carried along by their co workers, or most likely will be promoted as performance is not taken into account, if you do well in a 30 minute interview, that is all that counts. This system needs to be radically overhauled.

NetChat101

km79 wrote: »

I can this thread shockingly will not end well
The after hours brigade are coming
“Sure isn’t that their job “

Why were we clapping for nurses doing their job so ?

Again to answer thread title
No
And there never will be

"Why were we clapping for nurses doing their job so," !!!!!!!!! Are you seriously saying that we shouldn't be clapping for nurses as they are only doing their job. Lovely deflection there.

There are soooo many teachers trying their utmost, under very stressful conditions at home minding their own children, to assist their students during this awful time.

Then you have the teachers that send home around 3 days work, then send on a list of websites for parents to trawl through themselves trying to find suitable work for their children. That's what has happened for my child, and still no work packs being sent out. Now, in all seriousness, for each teacher to do up a work pack for the week for just their own class, surely that could be done in a couple of hours, considering they have access to the exact work my child is doing and as teachers they know what they're looking for. I have spent so much time every night after my kids are in bed, trying to find and print out worksheets, only to be told the next day "No Mam, we haven't done that yet".

Also, I'm pretty sure my child doesn't say to her teacher "Ah no teacher, do we have to do that now" which is a frequent comment at home, among others.

So no, I haven't a newfound respect for teachers. I've always had massive respect for teachers but I do now have newfound criticism of SOME of them.

km79

NetChat101 wrote: »

"Why were we clapping for nurses doing their job so," !!!!!!!!! Are you seriously saying that we shouldn't be clapping for nurses as they are only doing their job.

I absolutely am not saying that . The context of the post is in the context of the thread

Lovely deflection there.

Deflecting from what ? A rare thread in praise of teachers

There are soooo many teachers trying their utmost, under very stressful conditions at home minding their own children, to assist their students during this awful time.

Yes I am one of them .

Then you have the teachers that send home around 3 days work, then send on a list of websites for parents to trawl through themselves trying to find suitable work for their children. That's what has happened for my child, and still no work packs being sent out. Now, in all seriousness, for each teacher to do up a work pack for the week for just their own class, surely that could be done in a couple of hours, considering they have access to the exact work my child is doing and as teachers they know what they're looking for. I have spent so much time every night after my kids are in bed, trying to find and print out worksheets, only to be told the next day "No Mam, we haven't done that yet".
Contact your school principal

Also, I'm pretty sure my child doesn't say to her teacher "Ah no teacher, do we have to do that now" which is a frequent comment at home, among others.

No comment

So no, I haven't a newfound respect for teachers. I've always had massive respect for teachers but I do now have newfound criticism of SOME of them.

Ok

killbillvol2

NetChat101 wrote: »

Also, I'm pretty sure my child doesn't say to her teacher "Ah no teacher, do we have to do that now" which is a frequent comment at home, among others.

Oh dear.

Possibly one of the comments most heard in classrooms. But obviously never from your little angel.

beveragelady

NetChat101 wrote: »

"Why were we clapping for nurses doing their job so," !!!!!!!!! Are you seriously saying that we shouldn't be clapping for nurses as they are only doing their job. Lovely deflection there.

What has happened there is that you have misunderstood.

NetChat101 wrote: »

Also, I'm pretty sure my child doesn't say to her teacher "Ah no teacher, do we have to do that now" which is a frequent comment at home, among others.

Pretty sure he or she does. One of the joys of the job, hearing their adorable opinions when you have a syllabus to cover.

NetChat101

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Oh dear.

Possibly one of the comments most heard in classrooms. But obviously never from your little angel.

Typical teacher retort. But no, my child is not a little angel as you say. And I know a lot of teachers very well - when they're chatting in an outside school setting about parents they constantly refer to "parents and their little angels".

If any parent dares to question anything, they're "that parent".

NetChat101

beveragelady wrote: »

What has happened there is that you have misunderstood.



Pretty sure he or she does. One of the joys of the job, hearing their adorable opinions when you have a syllabus to cover.

I don't think I misunderstood in the slightest.

beveragelady

NetChat101 wrote: »

I don't think I misunderstood in the slightest.

So what's happening here is that you're continuing to misunderstand.

maestroamado

You are comparing apples and oranges.


Reminds me of something from years ago.
Teacher word game, asks class for word beginning with "N"


Smart Johnny, miss i have it.... what the word miss an napple, no that apple Johnny.
Please miss another go..... and the word... miss its an norange no that orange.
Please please miss one more..... and the word... its an negg miss.
Sit down Johnny...

NetChat101

beveragelady wrote: »

So what's happening here is that you're continuing to misunderstand.

Apologies if I misunderstood (genuinely).

Can you explain exactly what the comment "Why are we clapping for the nurses so?" meant? Obviously in the context of the poster's whole post.

beveragelady

This was one response to the OP's suggestion that one or two people might gain a respect for teachers:

maneno wrote: »

Not to be rude or anything but that’s what you are trained to do? You will struggle if you were to do a job that you don’t have expertise in,that said teachers do a good job

It got the following reply:

km79 wrote: »

I can this thread shockingly will not end well
The after hours brigade are coming
“Sure isn’t that their job “

Why were we clapping for nurses doing their job so ?

I will simplify the conversation for you:
OP: Do you think people might start to respect teachers now?
Reply A: Sure aren't they only doing their job?
Reply B: But we clapped for the nurses, and they were doing their job.
You : Oh so now you're saying we shouldn't clap for nurses, and teaching is hard because I've just discovered my child is uncooperative, but not really and I respect teachers but they're bad.

NetChat101

beveragelady wrote: »

This was one response to the OP's suggestion that one or two people might gain a respect for teachers:



It got the following reply:


I will simplify the conversation for you:
OP: Do you think people might start to respect teachers now?
Reply A: Sure aren't they only doing their job?
Reply B: But we clapped for the nurses, and they were doing their job.
You : Oh so now you're saying we shouldn't clap for nurses, and teaching is hard because I've just discovered my child is uncooperative, but not really and I respect teachers but they're bad.

You dont need to simplify anything for me, I dont appreciate the condescension.

The post implied that the poster was exasperated because not everyone agreed that, after homeschooling for a few days, we should all be on our knees thanking teachers.

Then said that no doubt the usual "sure isn't that their job" would be flying in. Then implied that, if you apply the same thinking to nurses, ie sure aren't they only doing their job, why was applause necessary.

beveragelady

I see you're still lost:
The thread:
It made sense to clap for nurses, they're doing a brilliant job under intolerable circumstances, but we took them for granted up to now.
So might it make sense to maybe have a a weeny bit of respect for teachers now that parents are discovering that teaching is hard?

You:
Meh, I'm going to read just one sentence and disregard the nuance and context so I can express outrage.
Also, my Child doesn't want to work, I bet teachers don't have this problem.

thomasdylan

beveragelady wrote: »

This was one response to the OP's suggestion that one or two people might gain a respect for teachers:



It got the following reply:


I will simplify the conversation for you:
OP: Do you think people might start to respect teachers now?
Reply A: Sure aren't they only doing their job?
Reply B: But we clapped for the nurses, and they were doing their job.
You : Oh so now you're saying we shouldn't clap for nurses, and teaching is hard because I've just discovered my child is uncooperative, but not really and I respect teachers but they're bad.

But only Reply A was in quotes. The way I read it because of that was Reply B was km79's own response.

Which would be strange because there's a gulf between what nurses and teachers are having to do now.

HerrKuehn

Maybe teachers will have a bit of respect for parents in future? Many parents are working full time and trying to keep their children busy. I have 2 kids in primary school, there have been a few emails with links to things to do. It would take very little time to put it together so the teachers are basically off now. I don't have an issue with this at all, I expect the kids will not be going back before September. Again, I have no problem with that. We are well able to keep the kids busy. We will work weekends etc, to make sure there is always one of us here with them. I'm fine with that, we do what we have to. However, I would have thought teachers have it easier than almost any other profession during the crisis.

khalessi

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Maybe teachers will have a bit of respect for parents in future? Many parents are working full time and trying to keep their children busy. I have 2 kids in primary school, there have been a few emails with links to things to do. It would take very little time to put it together so the teachers are basically off now. I don't have an issue with this at all, I expect the kids will not be going back before September. Again, I have no problem with that. We are well able to keep the kids busy. We will work weekends etc, to make sure there is always one of us here with them. I'm fine with that, we do what we have to. However, I would have thought teachers have it easier than almost any other profession during the crisis.

I'm a teacher and a parent. I bought a laptop and modem to work from home to accommodate the online learning as that was needed. It was an expense I didn't need as I'm a single parent but I just got on with it. I too have kids to keep busy and keep up with school work as I work from home.

Mutual respect is what is needed.

It really saddens me to see the abuse teachers get as I just try to get on with my job. Each job has good and bad. I have met some rotten doctors and awful nurses in my years as a nurse but I have also met excellent ones, the same with every other occupation.

I worry about them at this scary time and the members of my family who are still frontline. I also worry about my colleagues and teacher friends for different reasons as I dont know who will return when we get back to school. I worry about the kids I teach and their families, especially the ones I know have extra pressures.

I an just doing my job which is teaching, though now I am teaching online to my students. I was up Monday and Tuesday night from 3am uploading stuff as my Internet isnt great. I was then online conferencing with my students all day about the work we had to do.

For the children and myself it has been a steep learning curve, and this is just primary school. I am very proud of my kids and how they are coping with this change thrown at us. I worry about them but know they are ok.

I have been online everyday from 530am as some of the children get up early to use the internet before their parents need them for work and they might have a question, so I am there as that is the job.

Each school is handling this the best way they can depending on the technology they have. Mine send out a daily one but we have different levels of technology and I use online classrooms to teach. My children's school sent out an email with work for the week and we are muddling though, but not all of it is getting done.

Why? Simple, in our constitution it states the parent is the main educator so the work being sent home is a suggestion and my children's wellbeing is the most important thing in these strange times. I take each day as it comes and see how my kids are feeling. They do a few hours a day then we play or bake or they do lego, board games etc. I'm allowing them onto computer games as they can chat to their friends.

It is hard being a parent, working full time and keeping them going especially in these strange times but that is what we all are trying to do


So be kind to one another and be kind to yourselves.
Everyone is trying to do their best no matter what

_Brian

Always had plenty of respect for teachers.
Teachers work hard often dealing with very difficult classes and individuals, including parents.

My eldest is heading towards teaching and I’m very proud of her decision. Few teachers at school encouraged me towards teaching but sadly my family circumstances at the time didn’t support it.

august12

khalessi wrote: »

I'm a teacher and a parent. I bought a laptop and modem to work from home to accommodate the online learning as that was needed. It was an expense I didn't need as I'm a single parent but I just got on with it. I too have kids to keep busy and keep up with school work as I work from home.

Mutual respect is what is needed.

It really saddens me to see the abuse teachers get as I just try to get on with my job. Each job has good and bad. I have met some rotten doctors and awful nurses in my years as a nurse but I have also met excellent ones, the same with every other occupation.

I worry about them at this scary time and the members of my family who are still frontline. I also worry about my colleagues and teacher friends for different reasons as I dont know who will return when we get back to school. I worry about the kids I teach and their families, especially the ones I know have extra pressures.

I an just doing my job which is teaching, though now I am teaching online to my students. I was up Monday and Tuesday night from 3am uploading stuff as my Internet isnt great. I was then online conferencing with my students all day about the work we had to do.

For the children and myself it has been a steep learning curve, and this is just primary school. I am very proud of my kids and how they are coping with this change thrown at us. I worry about them but know they are ok.

I have been online everyday from 530am as some of the children get up early to use the internet before their parents need them for work and they might have a question, so I am there as that is the job.

Each school is handling this the best way they can depending on the technology they have. Mine send out a daily one but we have different levels of technology and I use online classrooms to teach. My children's school sent out an email with work for the week and we are muddling though, but not all of it is getting done.

Why? Simple, in our constitution it states the parent is the main educator so the work being sent home is a suggestion and my children's wellbeing is the most important thing in these strange times. I take each day as it comes and see how my kids are feeling. They do a few hours a day then we play or bake or they do lego, board games etc. I'm allowing them onto computer games as they can chat to their friends.

It is hard being a parent, working full time and keeping them going especially in these strange times but that is what we all are trying to do


So be kind to one another and be kind to yourselves.
Everyone is trying to do their best no matter what

Well said and well done, a really touching post, as you said, we should be working together and be kind to one another, take care.

Notorious

km79 wrote: »

“How are you enjoying your extended holidays ? You must have nothing for doing”

In short no

A parent actually replied to one of my emails saying "hope you're enjoying the extended summer holidays". :mad:

emilymemily

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Maybe teachers will have a bit of respect for parents in future? Many parents are working full time and trying to keep their children busy. I have 2 kids in primary school, there have been a few emails with links to things to do. It would take very little time to put it together so the teachers are basically off now. I don't have an issue with this at all, I expect the kids will not be going back before September. Again, I have no problem with that. We are well able to keep the kids busy. We will work weekends etc, to make sure there is always one of us here with them. I'm fine with that, we do what we have to. However, I would have thought teachers have it easier than almost any other profession during the crisis.

Most teachers are trying to teach 6 - 10 classes online daily. I spend half my day replying to students questions about something that has already been clearly explained to them, all because they dont make the effort to read the PowerPoint or document ive sent them.
I also have corrections from each student in each class, trying to source material which they can easily follow at home. Not to mention chasing after students who wont even check the work that's been assigned. I am working from 7am until 9pm some nights, I am answering students emails at weekends. My weekends are spent searching through endless Youtube videos and websites trying to find appropriate resources to send to students as im not with them to adequately teach them things.

It's not a competition on which profession has it easier during the crisis but dont think for a second that this is a holiday for teachers.

beveragelady

I just opened an email from a parent, not a child, that was sent just before midnight last night asking me which of the questions had to be done for today. I have no idea how that conversation could possibly have unfolded. In the assignment it clearly says (I double checked) which page and which questions. These two pieces of information are in the same sentence, on the same line.
How did the child read as far as the page number and then decide not to continue? And decide instead to ask a parent? Just before midnight? And the parent, rather than sending the child to bed, or saying "Well, let me see, show me the assignment, it must say somewhere which questions you need to do," fired off an email to the teacher.

I'm sticking to my timetable, dealing with classes as they are timetabled for 40 min stretches. I had to do this because it has been impossible to impress upon them the fact that I simply can't be available to them around the clock. It was driving me crazy.
Still, yesterday evening I got a string of messages at from 7:30pm onwards about an assignment that was due at 8pm. I wish I could show you a screenshot.
Miss, do we have to do both of the questions? (This information was in the assignment.)
2 mins later
Do we only have to do one question? (This information was in the assignment.)
8 mins later
If I do the first question do I have to use quotes? (This information was in the assignment.)
4 mins later
Do we have to agree with the statement in the question? (This information was in the assignment. There are now less that 20 mins left to do work that should take about 40 mins.)
6 mins later.
Miss, I don't know which question to do so I'm doing the second one. (They were supposed to do both.This information was in the assignment.)

I didn't reply because I was walking the dogs and I had turned off Teams notifications to my phone.

maestroamado

There is a primary school close to where i live (rural)
The principle car was there every time i passed since it closed.
Can they work remotely....

khalessi

maestroamado wrote: »

There is a primary school close to where i live (rural)
The principle car was there every time i passed since it closed.
Can they work remotely....

He could be supervising activity in the school such as a deep clean or allowing parents pick up books for rhe children, different reasons.

rainbowtrout

maestroamado wrote: »

There is a primary school close to where i live (rural)
The principle car was there every time i passed since it closed.
Can they work remotely....

Maybe they live in the middle of nowhere and the internet is crap so they've gone in to do some work as they are not at risk if they are the only person in the building.

maestroamado

khalessi wrote: »

He could be supervising activity in the school such as a deep clean or allowing parents pick up books for rhe children, different reasons.

Its a she with legs etc, not the dirty boots type...

km79

Someone else will be in questioning why their principals car is not outside their school but outside their home !

rainbowtrout

maestroamado wrote: »

Its a she with legs etc, not the dirty boots type...

Not sure why it matters, people coming on this forum complaining that teachers do no work, people coming on this forum complaining about teachers working...

km79

maestroamado wrote: »

Its a she with legs etc, not the dirty boots type...

What does that even mean?
This isn’t After Hours

thecomedian

maestroamado wrote: »

There is a primary school close to where i live (rural)
The principle car was there every time i passed since it closed.
Can they work remotely....

So?

afkasurfjunkie

maestroamado wrote: »

There is a primary school close to where i live (rural)
The principle car was there every time i passed since it closed.
Can they work remotely....

The principle car? Does it belong to the entire school and they take turns using it? Or...