Supporting craft breweries

dominatinMC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626522#Comment_120626522

More nanny state bullshit.

L1011

Likely to be banned by the EU due to it making imports near impossible

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626522#Comment_120626522

Good. Useful info, and no more adding generic "Beer, pint, 200 cal" into MyFitnessPal. Some breweries have been adding the nutritional info already.

Admin time and costs? How so? The calculator I use for telling me the ABV of my home brew beer also gives me the kcal of my beer. Breweries already have to calculate the ABV. Calculating the kcal just follows from that - it's not a secret. In fact:

• Calories From Alcohol
• 1881.22 * Final_Gravity * (Original_Gravity – Final_Gravity)/(1.775 – Original_Gravity)
• Calories From Carbohydrates
• 3550 * Final_Gravity * ((0.1808 * Original_Gravity) + (0.8192 * Final_Gravity) – 1.0004)
• Total Calories
• Calories From Alcohol + Calories From Carbohydrates

So it's going to take a once-off 2 minutes per unique recipe, and a minor change in labeling.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627635#Comment_120627635

That's not an acceptable method to work out calories for packaging.

Pen Rua

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627635#Comment_120627635

L1011 says that's not the right method - so I'll leave that between ye.

Speaking without a background in food science / marketing / regulation: surely there would need to be more stringent testing prove the kcal you're declaring on your label? What's to stop a scandal a la Dieselgate (Caloriegate?) where brewers would just make up calories and slap it on the label.

Perhaps someone with a background can comment on what the administrative burden would be on brewers? It is admittedly an assumption on my part in my initial comment.

I know some breweries include calories off of their own accord (but cannot think of an example now, and my stash is downstairs) so they'll be fine. The Irish breweries have no choice but to comply, or they go out of business for failing to comply.

Then breweries importing either make the decision between 1) labels for Ireland [an added cost], 2) don't import to Ireland, 3) have their distributor comply with the new laws [cost, surely some kind of liability minefield).

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627645#Comment_120627645

Care to tell us what is, then?

How are nutrient values calculated?

The legislation allows for various methods of calculating the nutrient values. It states that the declared values in the nutrition table are average values and must be based on:

the manufacturer's analysis of the food

 a calculation from the known or actual average values of the ingredients used; or

 a calculation from generally established and accepted data

So, determining the nutrient values does not necessarily require laboratory analysis and it may be possible for a food business operator to calculate the values themselves depending on the type of product.

is what the Food Safety Authority of Ireland says ~ https://www.fsai.ie/business-advice/labelling/labelling-nutrition-information/nutrition-labelling

So that'd seem to cover the kcal, anyway. It doesn't cover the other nutritional info, in fairness, but like, unless you've some very unusual ingredients, it's going to be feck all proteins and fats and quite a lot of carbs.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627697#Comment_120627697

What's to stop a scandal a la Dieselgate (Caloriegate?) where brewers would just make up calories and slap it on the label.

In theory? Nothing. In practice? Fear of reputational damage, and compensation costs? (Dieselgate cost VW something like €30 billion!) And pricks like me going "6% beer and only 150 kcal? Doubt it..."

I know some breweries include calories off of their own accord

Diageo, ironically. I'm sure there's more, though - even if not giving the full

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627786#Comment_120627786

A calculation from ABV is not covered by any of the accepted methods; and nor would it even be accurate for many products which still contain something of nutritive value other than ethanol.

As an analysis of the ingredients would not be accurate (due to non full consumption of grains, hops etc) it would have to be done by analysis of the final product, e.g. the crude way of basically burning in calorimeter.

Might get away with doing it off ABV on pure spirits, but that's it.

irish_goat

The kicker will be in who enforces it. If the homebrew method above of calculating calories based on gravities is accepted it won't really be much of a burden on producers as they'll just add the 2 minute task to each unique recipe and slap it on the label. For importers it will be a complete (and expensive) ball ache.

Zaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627197#Comment_120627197

This is the big hope, because I can't see too many foreign breweries or local importers wanting to go to the hassle of calculating the numbers for every beer they sell here and then producing new Ireland-only labels. It's the consumers who would lose out big time as our choice would be decimated.

breezy1985

I would love to know if any consultation with the industry was done before this was devised.

The pregnancy thing must be a law already in many places as I've seen that loads before. Calories I understand given it's a thing with food but I don't understand why anyone cares about alcohol per gram.

youcancallmeal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627197#Comment_120627197

Not sure what you mean? Ireland submitted the application to the European Commission last June and then it was approved after a 6 month moratorium with no objection from the EC.

If anything it's just going to make imported alcohol more expensive here as the costs of labelling an Italian bottle of wine just for the Irish market for example will surely be passed onto the consumer. Although it may be as simple as slapping a sticker on it

breezy1985

Is there any chance that we are just early jumpers on an EU law like with the smoking ban ?

irish_goat

Surely be easier for the government to wait and blame the EU than take the flak though.

feylya

How is this going to work in pubs for draft? Calories on the jewel? What about pubs that have no jewels and a constantly rotating beer tap?

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628327#Comment_120628327

The big hope?

Many of us have actually been wanting exactly this for years, including the likes of Beoir. Choice decimated? Pure hyperbole!

"Lads, we've to get the nutrition value of each of our twelve types of lager that we sell into Ireland and put that on the label!" "How much will that cost?" "Twelve times €100 for the testing if we don't do it ourselves. And we need to slightly redesign the label - which we could still use in every other country, and market as us being really responsible, the way Diageo made a big song and dance about it when they started doing this already, a few years ago!" "OMG no! It's fascism! We will simply stop selling into Ireland and forego our €30 million revenue!"

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628617#Comment_120628617

Yes, very much so.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628487#Comment_120628487

It is being legally challenged by multiple trade associations in the European courts.

irish_goat

Draught already gets a by-ball in that they don't even need to have the ABV on display.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628861#Comment_120628861

These laws are always about off sales.

It's almost like there is some sort of union with political ties looking after pubs.

On top of that these middle class dogooder pressure groups seem obsessed with off sales.

Pen Rua

Beoir advocated for this?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120629090#Comment_120629090

I cannot find any evidence to back that claim up. I suspect they are getting confused with support for possible EU-wide changes, which are completely different to this

https://beoir.org/campaigns/labelling-laws

Zaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628712#Comment_120628712

Who are "many of us"? In all the years I've been drinking the stuff, I've never heard one single person asking for calories on a bottle of beer.

As for forgoing €30m in revenue, I guarantee that none of the non-Irish breweries I buy beer from sell anything more than a fraction of that in Ireland each year. So given the choice of new labelling for one of their niche markets or not bothering to sell there, I know which one is easier for them.

breezy1985

Talking about it now on Virgin 1.

the beer revolu

I think many people have wanted a mandatory ingredients list on alcohol labels. I have. And where the product is made.

Neither of these will be mandatory under the new rules.

Macy0161

Who are "many of us"? In all the years I've been drinking the stuff, I've never heard one single person asking for calories on a bottle of beer.

Well I wouldn't say it out loud, but at certain times when I've been overall calorie tracking I have scanned bottles. However, there's actually quite limited science about how many calories from alcohol you actually absorb anyway (so many variables compared to food). So I don't bother anymore (that, and the main impact is all the crap I'm liable to eat after a few beers - I could probably get behind a warning label "step away from the crisps and nuts").

squonk

More stupidity and I like her but in a practical sense if I’m calorie counting or on a health kick beer would be my last go go. You’re getting the onboard carbs and then you’re likely to eat less well if you’re hungover or even with snacks with the beer sometimes. If all boils down to though the thing about being beer drinking age and above, you’re an adult so you get to make adult choices.

Pen Rua

https://www.businesspost.ie/article/alcohol-imports-and-exports-will-not-have-to-have-health-labelling-donnelly/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=qf

"Speaking on RTÉ radio, he said: “There was a concern raised, for example, let’s say a small producer in Italy, would they stop sending a product into Ireland because they’d have to create a bespoke label?

“The answer is no, they don’t. They can export and we can import a product that doesn’t contain the warning, and then a sticker is simply put on it in Ireland.”"

There's misguided, out of touch and then there's this.

Is he expecting Grand Cru to import the beer from the US and the continent, open the packages, affix labels, repackage, distribute? Cost, cost, cost!

Not to mention prickly brewers who might opt not to sell in Ireland to avoid the optics of the warning label, too.

squonk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120630486#Comment_120630486

It’s a case of

A. They don’t know what they’re saying

B. They don’t really care anyway.

I remember thinking when the smoking ban first came in followed by the cigarette labels and bans on advertising that alcohol would follow. I’m generally supportive of that idea but when it’s an EU mandated policy.

The problem here is that in government there are two many on solo runs pushing for their own pet policies to be put on the statute books. I agree that sometimes you need a trailblazer like the Noel Brownes and even Micháel Martins to move things on. This is too much too soon however and I suspect is being driven by the usual culprits, the vintners. Obviously not enough punters are coming out for their €7 pints so this will smoke out a few more. Sure we’ll all agree that Heineken is where it’s at soon enough and forget about those decent German craft lagers.

By all means push for this to be done at EU level. Once all EU27 countries are applying this together it’s great and a welcome development. Until then, leave it. We’re a small country. Small enough to be ignored or sidelined and bypassed where trade is concerned. You make moves like this when you’re a single big market or a collective of markets that together are large and important. This, like MUP and lots of other things lately make it seem like there’s a real disconnect between the government and the people who elect it.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120629113#Comment_120629113

How are they different?

"Beoir and the EBCU wish to see the removal of this exemption so beer consumers can see all ingredients that go in to their beer. We would also like to see precisely where the beer was brewed and by what brewery. Simply saying "Brewed in the EU" is unacceptable from a consumer information point of view.

Many breweries already volunteer the information we want to see, and for this we thank them. We would like to see it made mandatory on a European level though."

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120630262#Comment_120630262

Yup, and I'd like the information available to be able to make informed choices. Like, will I have two Irish IPAs at (say) 160 kcal each, or will I have just the one Belgian at 240 kcal?

I've used the likes of MyFitnessPal for calorie tracking on a couple of occasions to slowly but steadily lose upwards of 20kg (and need to do so again, thanks Covid and lack of exercise!) and in the past when doing that I've just had to pick a reasonably accurate (I assume) type of beer that was already listed on it, and substitute. And yes, fully aware if I'm going on the beer, I'm also likely to snack more - but I don't always go for a session, especially when trying to lose weight; I can just have a bottle or can or two after work, and leave it at that.