What will my child miss out on if they're not Christened?

Dot34

Hi guys,

If this is already covered please do point me to the correct thread

Myself and my other half (not married) are currently expecting out first wee human and are super excited. Both Catholics (by the actions of out parents) but not interested in any organised religion. I'd like to think there's more to the world than this, but I'm unable to believe in a god... I've tried.

We have been chatting about christening and stuff and I'd like to ask you good people what it looks like to be a non-religious family trying to get a school place etc. Do you know if there are many non-religious kids in denominational primary schools?

Just to be clear, neither of us want to have the baby Christened, ideally. We're just trying to figure this out ahead of all the pressure which we know is coming in a matter of time, probably mostly from my side of the family

fixXxer

None of my 3 are christened. They go to a local catholic school as it was the only option available to us. I was up front with the school when applying and apart from the principle wanting a chat we've not had any problems. The kids are not separated from the rest during religious parts so they pick up some of the woo. We talk about it at home though so their heads are kept straight. 2nd class is a bloody chore though with all the communion stuff going on.

Catholic schools cannot prioritise catholic children over others. However minority faith schools (religions below 10%) can still prioritise children of certain faiths i.e protestant school can prioritse protestant children.

Dot34

fixXxer wrote: »

None of my 3 are christened. They go to a local catholic school as it was the only option available to us. I was up front with the school when applying and apart from the principle wanting a chat we've not had any problems. The kids are not separated from the rest during religious parts so they pick up some of the woo. We talk about it at home though so their heads are kept straight. 2nd class is a bloody chore though with all the communion stuff going on.

That's really useful to know. Its completely uncharted territory for us. This will be a first grandchild on both sides and we have no-one paving the non-catholic way for us. I'd an idea that Catholic schools had to be more accommodating now, considering they're by and large the only option. We'll probably be living back home in Donegal in a few years and I think there's only 1 educate together primary school in the county... so its reassuring to know that.

listermint

Neither of ours are baptised. We had a humanist wedding ceremony. The whole church jazz isn't for us tbh. No specific reasons.

Ours are under school age presently but when we phoned around for places it wasn't a problem in our local for any schools. South Wicklow.

Gary Gurney

Dot34 wrote: »

Hi guys,

If this is already covered please do point me to the correct thread

Myself and my other half (not married) are currently expecting out first wee human and are super excited. Both Catholics (by the actions of out parents) but not interested in any organised religion. I'd like to think there's more to the world than this, but I'm unable to believe in a god... I've tried.

We have been chatting about christening and stuff and I'd like to ask you good people what it looks like to be a non-religious family trying to get a school place etc. Do you know if there are many non-religious kids in denominational primary schools?

Just to be clear, neither of us want to have the baby Christened, ideally. We're just trying to figure this out ahead of all the pressure which we know is coming in a matter of time, probably mostly from my side of the family

Confirmation money

Dot34

This is a genuine concern... lol

smacl

Neither of my kids were Christened, nor was I myself for that matter. Both went to an ET primary and eldest went to a Catholic all girls secondary. I don't think it makes much difference these days unless you were looking to get them into a fee paying Jesuit school or similar. Even then, I'm guess most would quite probably still take your money. That said, we're Dublin based and Donegal could be a good bit more conservative,

Hotblack Desiato

They'll miss out on nothing and should gain some valuable life lessons on standing up for what you (don't) believe in

We are two involuntary catholics, enrolled at birth into an organisation you can't officially leave but have had no time for since our teens, we got married in a registry office and neither of our kids are baptised and we wanted as non-religous an education for them as possible.

No ET so we sent them to the local CoI primary (it is the nearest to our house!) and they are opted out of religion. It's been mostly OK, one teacher was a bit OTT in pushing the religion / marking out those who were not CoI and we had to have a word with the principal but it was sorted out.

CoI kids are very much a minority in the school and it seems in the last couple of years they're ramping up the religion as a result - they have an evangelical guy in now every year for a couple of weeks to yap at the senior classes - "Fun Bible Guy" we call him again we just opt out, and the kids regard the whole religion thing as a big joke

Secondary is actually a bigger issue where we live, large Dublin suburb but there are only two secondary schools:

- a large single--sex girls secondary run by a catholic religious order with a history of child abuse
- a large single--sex boys secondary run by a catholic religious order with a history of child abuse

So as we're not fans of either religious orders or single-sex education (or child abuse) they're out. We have got a place for our elder child in a co-ed ET/joint patronage although we're outside the catchment area, the younger will get in there on the sibling rule. They still don't have a permanent premises though and are sharing with another school at the moment, their plan is to put pre-fabs on the grounds of the first school while the second is built...

Kylta

Also baptism money and communion money.

Hotblack Desiato

Baptism money :mad: my parents were holding out on me!!!

Dot34

Kylta wrote: »

Also baptism money and communion money.

Yeah, I see your missed baptism money and raise you a secular naming ceremony...

KaneToad

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

We are two involuntary catholics, enrolled at birth into an organisation you can't officially leave but have had no time for since our teens...

Surely you don't identity as catholic in any Census? If so, why do you give a monkeys that you can't "officially" leave the Catholic church? Its not like they're charging a membership fee!

krissovo

I will be honest its horrible for the child leading up to communion, my daughter was in tears for months when she could not engage in the class craic for what dress, shoes, how are you doing your hair. In our school peer pressure from the class, teacher and even the principle does not support a non catholic child. We ended up getting her and my younger son baptized a couple of weeks before her confirmation in a private session but that took a lot of negotiation with the Parrish to come to a reasonable agreement.

CaoinDory

Dot34 wrote: »

Yeah, I see your missed baptism money and raise you a secular naming ceremony...

Love this!!!

krissovo

krissovo wrote: »

I will be honest its horrible for the child leading up to communion, my daughter was in tears for months when she could not engage in the class craic for what dress, shoes, how are you doing your hair. In our school peer pressure from the class, teacher and even the principle does not support a non catholic child. We ended up getting her and my younger son baptized a couple of weeks before her confirmation in a private session but that took a lot of negotiation with the Parrish to come to a reasonable agreement.

Jaysis
Could you not just let her go buy a fancy dress & take her out for the day anyway!
Getting her baptised seems a bit ott for a child who thinks their missing something!

Tiercel Dave

Both my girls, now in their 20's, 5yrs between them, were not baptised and attended the local Catholic national school, East Galway. I went to the principal before first one was enrolled and stated my case. While I had no objection to them being exposed to a Christian ethos, after all, he was a good man, I didn't want them having Catholic dogma forced on them until they were old enough to decide things for themselves.
As they progressed through schooling, at teachers meeting etc., I was told they were very behaved, courteous and so on, which to me were more important attributes. One nun, who I thought would be my biggest hurdle, was effusive in her praise of them both, saying they picked up on the prayers even though they were assigned other lessons during 'religion'.
Come communion/confirmation we bought them special outfits and brought them to the latter part of the church ceremonies to meet with their classmates on their big day, then off for an adventure, shopping, cinema or whatever so it wasn't a day that they felt totally different or left out.....

Hotblack Desiato

KaneToad wrote: »

Surely you don't identity as catholic in any Census? If so, why do you give a monkeys that you can't "officially" leave the Catholic church? Its not like they're charging a membership fee!

No, but I'd be perfectly entitled to tick the catholic box if I chose to (and a lot of people seem to think that if baptised into a religion, that's what you should do, regardless of your actual beliefs), and that church still regards me as a catholic, and both of the above remain the case unless I were to join another church.

Same as teachers don't give out to muslim kids for not going to the school mass, but they do to non-religious kids of Irish appearance because they assume their parents are just lazy catholics... non-belief is not a position respected by either the RCC or our society

Tiercel Dave wrote: »

While I had no objection to them being exposed to a Christian ethos

Just as well - because you'd have no option in many places.

Why can't schools just be schools? That is what happens in normal developed countries.

LLR

Hi I realise I am 2 years late to this thread but wondering if anyone has any experience on this. I have a 3 month old and we are currently discussing christening. I only want to get her christened because I don't want her to be left out in school. Especially in the lead up to communion. I think like most people I would like to do it as tradition however the more I think about it the more I think maybe I don't want to. My partner is very against having her christened. I am hearing talk of communion and confirmation being taken out of school. If this happens that would be my decision made, but I really am afraid my baby will be left out in school. Does anyone have any insight?

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539368#Comment_119539368

Neither of mine were christened, but both were lucky enough to end up in Educate Together primary schools. My feeling is this is becoming less of an issue over time and that if this is the only reason you would get your children Christened it is the wrong one. That said, if you don't care much either way, it could be a pragmatic decision. I'd tend to have a chat with your partner and discuss what other future religious ceremonies they are keen on beyond Christening (e.g. confirmation etc...) and make sure you're on the same page there. Christening won't impact your negatively daughter whereas the decision to continue to raise her as Christian may do.

Pissy Missy

My friend has her children christened to avoid difficulties with accessing certain schools, I would research your local schools and views on this first

JimmyAlfonso

There are some alternatives out there so your kids don't feel left out like My Little Big Day (on religious, non profit, ceremony for children in Second Class.)

My kids are just pre school so have not first hand knowledge but it looks to be a growing and complimentary experience so kids don't feel left out.

I'm sure there are other events and you could just do a special day out like others have mentioned.

Hotblack Desiato

RC ethos schools are legally prohibited from discriminating in enrolment between baptised and non-baptised kids.

IF in about 8 years' time communion prep is still happening in schools and IF you and your partner are both OK with it you can always have the child baptised at that stage.

Your child's wishes should enter into it too, but the RCC knows what it's doing and if a nice outfit and a big day out and desire to fit in isn't enough to draw a little child in there's always a nice big cash bribe. This organisation portrays itself as the arbiter of our society's morals...

TBH I can't see the current farce lasting much longer, ever increasing numbers of teachers and parents are completely fed up with it and the RCC is finally cottoning on that it doesn't work anyway. The vast majority of kids who show up on the two big days are never seen inside a church again. There are increasing calls from within the clergy to move it to a parish level instead of in schools. So those parents who are actually engaged with it can continue to participate and everyone else just gets on with their lives.

The suggestion of an alternative nice outfit / big day out / cash bribe(!) thing is probably a good one. Not something we had to engage with in a CoI school, these sacraments happen MUCH later and are at parish level and don't involve the school - most kids in the school aren't CoI anyway.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119540987#Comment_119540987

That form of discrimination has been illegal for a few years now but it seems many parents are still under the misapprehension that the old rules are still in place.

Even then, there were hardly any RC schools applying the "baptism barrier" but the fear of it was enough to get lots of parents baptising who otherwise wouldn't. At every level, religions thrive on fear.

Would love to know what baptism rates are like over the last few years, gone over a cliff would be my estimate. Fewer than half of all marriages in Ireland are now church weddings so these future parents are hardly likely to be at the head of the baptism queue.

spurious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/112923401#Comment_112923401

It used to be possible to formally leave and be removed from the baptismal register, but then they stopped allowing it as so many people were doing it. I officially left and have the letter from the bishop to prove it.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539368#Comment_119539368

i just find the notion of going to a ceremony like that and swearing to raise your child as catholic, when you don't seem to have any intention to, to be a little weird; just so they won't miss out on a party seven or eight years away. would you not feel like a total fraud?

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119541033#Comment_119541033

Not sure any baby is going to miss out on not being Christened. Communion, confirmation etc... is something altogether different and, in my opinion, something to most definitely avoid if you're not religious. Seems obvious, but many still get pressured into it. That said, as an atheist there was no way I would have got my kids Christened either. More importantly, we put a lot of effort to avoid Christian ethos schools and were lucky enough that ET weren't quite so oversubscribed when mine were at that stage. I would have had a serious issue sending the kids to a primary school with a strong Christian ethos, much as I imagine many Christians would in sending their kids to a school with a strong Muslim ethos. This is not a criticism of Christian or Muslim ethe, merely that they are somewhat incompatible with the ethos which we chose to raise our kids.

theteal

Has the tide not turned yet in Ireland? I'd assume in this day and age, the group of "pagan" kids should be quite sizable. . . .maybe urban/rural variations?

Not a chance I'd do if we were still around. Your child will learn more from standing ground and likely respect you more when they're older for not following the mindless done thing.

For the record, our two are Sasanachs with funny foreign accents. No mention of religion in school apart from the nativity play. . . .I can't say the same for Queen/Royal family force feeding though - that jubilee period was tough.

LLR

Oh I'm sorry did you read my comment? Did I mention anything about a party? I said I would have her christened so she would not be left out in school.. it seems nothing has changed since I was in school many moons ago, my friend is a primary school teacher and has said 2nd class is a nightmare for kids that are not making their communion. It's all about that!

It seems everyone is still going along with the old tradition. Majority of people in my area / friends / family are still having kids christened and not attending church.

Anyway I asked the question to find out if all schools were exclusive to kids not making communion / confirmation.

I think majority of parents would agree it should he taken out of the schools, that way nobody would feel the pressure!

LLR

It's not really the day in particular I'm talking about as I could go get her a dress and have a party if that's what we wanted on the day. I mean the whole lead up to it and preparation of it in class.

Thanks though

Gru

honestly it depends on the school,

in my kids school children not making their communion/confirmation are allowed do as much or as little as they (or their parents) want. If they don't do a reading at the confirmation they do one at the graduation instead, etc one child recently did the whole lot bar the official bits, and so hasn't made their communion officially but participated in all aspects of the build up and during the ceremony.

the communion party has always included every child in the class although some miss out on it because their parent throw them a special day the same day in an outdoor pursuits centre or the likes. They still get the cards with money for those that way inclined. Naming ceremony's, celebration ceremonies and New Name/Teenage/confirm ceremonies are a thing now (where they add a confirmation name but don't get confirmed) .

Regardless of religion or school ethos, put their name down as soon as you are able to as they can fill up fast and if your child isn't baptised that might come into play, but generally its "when" their name goes down that i've seen used as a barometer.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119541424#Comment_119541424

Agreed, I hadn't realised the concern was about the confirmation and communion, I'd thought it was about being shoved down the list of entrants based on not having a baptismal cert. Concern about exclusion from confirmation and communion stuff when you're not even a practising Christian is cynical and a bit depressing.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058063291/what-will-my-child-miss-out-on-if-theyre-not-christened

They will miss out on not being christened.

Neither of mine were and they are now adults. They have missed out on nothing.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119542024#Comment_119542024

i think you can probably understand a bit of cynicism on the A&A forum about communion not being much more than a 'party'; especially since (as is widely acknowledged) for many of the parents of the kids involved it's just that; there's no intention to raise the kids as catholics.

Eggs For Dinner

As long as people continue to cave in to the church in order to access education, or to prevent their children from missing out on social events, the longer it will take to rid them of their undue influence on society

Hotblack Desiato

Regardless of religion or school ethos, put their name down as soon as you are able to as they can fill up fast and if your child isn't baptised that might come into play

Agreed, I hadn't realised the concern was about the confirmation and communion, I'd thought it was about being shoved down the list of entrants based on not having a baptismal cert.

For the third time... the baptism barrier has been abolished in all except about 5% of schools (CoI and the tiny number of other religion schools).