Rent! So weve heard about help for mortgages but what about Renters?

cormie

Hey folks,
Just wondering would anyone have any insight into a possible rent freeze? I imagine a straight forward rent freeze would cause uproar amongst landlords if they are still required to pay mortgages off and that, so if there was to be any such measures, it'd have to involve a freeze on mortgage repayments too.

For those who can't work and earn a living for what could be weeks or months, what measures might be on the horizon as a lot of people live pay check to pay check to pay rent and bills?

Same goes for small businesses who need to be open to cover their rent and fees.

Also, I see there are relief schemes for small enterprises which seem to be geared towards sorting out issues with employees etc, but what measures will be in place for the likes of people who have just started off with self employment and have no other income than that?

Any feedback would be great

efanton

cormie wrote: »

Hey folks,
Just wondering would anyone have any insight into a possible rent freeze? I imagine a straight forward rent freeze would cause uproar amongst landlords if they are still required to pay mortgages off and that, so if there was to be any such measures, it'd have to involve a freeze on mortgage repayments too.

For those who can't work and earn a living for what could be weeks or months, what measures might be on the horizon as a lot of people live pay check to pay check to pay rent and bills?

Same goes for small businesses who need to be open to cover their rent and fees.

Also, I see there are relief schemes for small enterprises which seem to be geared towards sorting out issues with employees etc, but what measures will be in place for the likes of people who have just started off with self employment and have no other income than that?

Any feedback would be great

Rent freeze would require legislation.
I doubt FG would be keen on any legislation that would hurt landlords

the problem with a rent freeze is that it would not be sufficient or work, and it would not help those that need help most.
Many people in the pubs, hotel, travel, restaurant sectors have or will be laid off. Although we are told existing measures are only until the end of the month, you would have to be a bit of a fool not to realise that these measures are likely to be in place for months not weeks.

How does someone that has lost their job in these circumstances, continue to pay rents or mortgage payments on what they might get on social welfare payments while they wait to return to work. Many of these people will not qualify for housing benefits because they will be above the thresholds.

What you are ideally looking at is a period where tenants or mortgage holders are fully protected while no payments are made, or the government stepping in and paying these payments.

I cant see how a government could expect some landlords to go months without payment, for many it is their sole income.
Neither could I see the existing FG lead government and its ministers, making those payments until people are able to return to their jobs.

Its a serious dilemma and there will be no quick and easy fixes. Not having a government with majority support will make it even harder to come up with a solution. The onus is on FG and FF to get their coalition together as quickly as possible, or be brutally honest and force another election even though this is the last thing the country needs.

My own personal opinion is there's a few billion surplus to play with, if the government is smart it will step in and make interim payments with some mechanism to claw that money back gradually over a extended period in the future once the corona virus crisis has passed. I somehow doubt FG would tolerate such a move, even though it would be in the country's long term interest.

cormie

Thanks a lot for that! Doesn't sound like the most hopeful situation for renters

Let's see if there's any updates on the situation, if you hear of any developments on it further, please post back if you've time

Zulu

cormie wrote: »

Thanks a lot for that! Doesn't sound like the most hopeful situation for renters

Let's see if there's any updates on the situation, if you hear of any developments on it further, please post back if you've time

A rent freeze would further screw those accidental landlords who suffered disproportionatly during the last crash. Many of these are hanging on by a thread already. And contrary to the growing opinion, freezing mortgage payment does not resolve this.
It's a nice but dangerous idea that seems to be gathering momentum. Thank **** SF aren't in gov, as it's exactly the kind of populist bs they'd go for.

The_Brood

Zulu wrote: »

A rent freeze would further screw those accidental landlords who suffered disproportionatly during the last crash. Many of these are hanging on by a thread already. And contrary to the growing opinion, freezing mortgage payment does not resolve this.
It's a nice but dangerous idea that seems to be gathering momentum. Thank **** SF aren't in gov, as it's exactly the kind of populist bs they'd go for.

I don't see what the problem is? Freeze rents - ok, landlords won't be getting paid. But if you also freeze mortgages, then they won't have to worry about needing to pay for their own housing either. The only people that would temporary lose out are the rich and the banks. In times of economic crashes, that is what should happen.

Zulu

The_Brood wrote: »

I don't see what the problem is? Freeze rents - ok, landlords won't be getting paid. But if you also freeze mortgages, then they won't have to worry about needing to pay for their own housing either. The only people that would temporary lose out are the rich and the banks. In times of economic crashes, that is what should happen.

Freezing a mortgage just prolongs it.
It fails to account for mgmt fees, property tax, wear and tear, etc.
It's an overly simplistic view, which is fair enough as most people aren't landlords and wouldn't be aware of all the costs.

Beasty

Anyone looking to increase rents in the current climate is unlikely to find anyone else prepared to pay higher rent. This is affecting the whole economy and to get it back on track (eventually) will require a significant reduction in expectations on how far there money will go, and earnings available to fund things.

Obviously will be some exceptions, but an extended recession will lower overall earnings on pretty much all fronts. People's standards of living will decline. Pensions will go down in value, and prices will reduce to reflect the overall lower earnings

flynnlives

So ive heard nothing about rent and any mechanism for people losing their jobs or on reduced hours to pay rent.

When and what are they going to do?

I pwrsonally beleive there should be a 3 month moratorium on all mortgage and rents for the residential market.

punisher5112

flynnlives wrote: »

So ive heard nothing about rent and any mechanism for people losing their jobs or on reduced hours to pay rent.

When and what are they going to do?

I pwrsonally beleive there should be a 3 month moratorium on all mortgage and rents for the residential market.

That's what hap.is for, there is procedure already in place.

flynnlives

punisher5112 wrote: »

That's what hap.is for, there is procedure already in place.

That wont cover all rents and you know that.
It only covers up to x amount.

flynnlives

flynnlives wrote: »

....
I pwrsonally beleive there should be a 3 month moratorium on all mortgage and rents for the residential market.

Those who can pay their mortgage & rent should do so. That will enable support for those who can't.

punisher5112

flynnlives wrote: »

That wont cover all rents and you know that.
It only covers up to x amount.

Yes but if someone is made redundant through no fault of their own there will have to be that and a little extra if needs be...

flynnlives

punisher5112 wrote: »

Yes but if someone is made redundant through no fault of their own there will have to be that and a little extra if needs be...

A little extra?

I dont see this as a workable solution. Passing the cost to the taxpayer is not a workable solution considering the amounts that will be involved.

A pause for both mortgages and rents would help everyone. Reduce stress and peoples wellbeing.

This is not just a monetary issue now. Its a social issue.

140,000 lost their jobs yesterday. We need certainty and some reassurance.

lawrencesummers

flynnlives wrote: »

So ive heard nothing about rent and any mechanism for people losing their jobs or on reduced hours to pay rent.

When and what are they going to do?

I pwrsonally beleive there should be a 3 month moratorium on all mortgage and rents for the residential market.

If your a tenant and you can’t pay, or can’t pay in full this month tell the landlord, he can make arrangements then with the bank.

I pay a mortgage and won’t be taking a break, and have a tenant who I told to get in touch if they think they will have a problem. It’s not for the government to Fix everybody’s problems.

Unless the ECB pays then it'll be the taxpayer paying for all that is required.

lawrencesummers

It will be interesting if the ECB reduces rates, they don’t have much room for reduction but there could be a token .05 or .1 Temporary reduction

The_Brood

Question is what happens to the banks? If mortgages are frozen for too long, how long before banks start collapsing? Then you enter into a complete meltdown if people start losing their savings.

Obviously this is hard for people who have lost their jobs right now, but at what point do you start endangering all of society?

efanton

This rent and mortgage freeze is pure nonsense, and yet another example of FG trying to do everything on the cheap when it comes to public expenditure.

Anyone who believes this crisis will be over in 3 months needs their heads examining. I doubt this country will be near back on it feet before the end of the year. In the mean time thousands of tenants will be facing eviction, and thousands of mortgage holders will be at the mercy of the banks. The rent/mortgage freeze for 3 months simply does not go far enough, nor does it solve the problem.

In my opinion the government should make a more ballsy move. The government should guarantee all rent payments and mortgage payments for those that have lost their jobs due to restrictions, with a view that this money would be clawed back over a period of a few years once the crisis has abated.

If someone has lost their job due to the restriction enforced by the government and cant make payment the government should make the payment for them. Then once the crisis has passed us and people are back to work claw that money back over a period of a few years.
The government can borrow huge amounts of money at the moment from the ECB at extremely low interest. They can claw that money back directly from the pay packet over a few years. In essence no one loses their homes, tenants have security, landlord dont go out of business, banks can continue lending, and all the money is paid back to the government within 3 or 4 years once the crisis is over.
Everyone wins and that's exactly what we need so that this country can be up and running again as soon as is possible.

The cost of not putting in something similar to this is going to cost the state huge amounts of money anyhow if landlords start selling their properties and getting out of the rental business . Once the vulture fund see there is no profit in buying up mortgages they will force sales of properties as well. No bank, vulture fund or landlord is going to accept non-payment for more than 3 months.

if you think we have a housing crisis now just think what it will be like in 3 or 4 years.

Idbatterim

they should definitely pay towards rent. Dont we always hear about "social solidarity" mostly from those that contribute nothing? now, I am sure they arent hypocrites! Cut welfare from certain groups and increase social housing rent, giving free housing away to one group, paid for by the ones fcuked now! You couldnt dream the **** up. People now taking massive hits to their income and getting less of a welfare payment than the long term wasters who have never contributed a cent :rolleyes:

hatrickpatrick

The_Brood wrote: »

Question is what happens to the banks? If mortgages are frozen for too long, how long before banks start collapsing? Then you enter into a complete meltdown if people start losing their savings.

Obviously this is hard for people who have lost their jobs right now, but at what point do you start endangering all of society?

It's pretty simple, the ECB needs to do what it should have done during the Euro debt crisis and engage in proper monetary financing, directly injecting money into the economy in order to keep society afloat. The problem, of course, is that this is against the ECB's mandate because Germany is still obsessed with the mistakes made during the Weimar Republic and assumes that any monetary financing by the central bank will lead to a wider collapse.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/ecb-needs-to-embrace-covid19-monetary-financing-by-paul-de-grauwe-2020-03

The ECB's mandate sees price stability as its only goal and role within the Eurozone, which is a fundamentally moronic basis for a central bank. It's like telling a referee in a rugby match that their only role is in penalising knock-ons, and that all the other functions of a referee - penalising fouls, adjudicating on questionable scores, ensuring safe scrum technique, etc - are irrelevant to this particular referee in this particular rugby match. As far as I know, to expand the ECB's remit to that of a proper central bank would require treaty changes - expect to see these fast-tracked through the EU at the risk of the alternative being a total meltdown of the single market.

lawrencesummers

efanton wrote: »

This rent and mortgage freeze is pure nonsense, and yet another example of FG trying to do everything on the cheap when it comes to public expenditure.

Anyone who believes this crisis will be over in 3 months needs their heads examining. I doubt this country will be near back on it feet before the end of the year. In the mean time thousands of tenants will be facing eviction, and thousands of mortgage holders will be at the mercy of the banks. The rent/mortgage freeze for 3 months simply does not go far enough, nor does it solve the problem.
I
In my opinion the government should make a more ballsy move. The government should guarantee all rent payments and mortgage payments for those that have lost their jobs due to restrictions, with a view that this money would be clawed back over a period of a few years once the crisis has abated.

If someone has lost their job due to the restriction enforced by the government and cant make payment the government should make the payment for them. Then once the crisis has passed us and people are back to work claw that money back over a period of a few years.
The government can borrow huge amounts of money at the moment from the ECB at extremely low interest. They can claw that money back directly from the pay packet over a few years. In essence no one loses their homes, tenants have security, landlord dont go out of business, banks can continue lending, and all the money is paid back to the government within 3 or 4 years once the crisis is over.
Everyone wins and that's exactly what we need so that this country can be up and running again as soon as is possible.

The cost of not putting in something similar to this is going to cost the state huge amounts of money anyhow if landlords start selling their properties and getting out of the rental business . Once the vulture fund see there is no profit in buying up mortgages they will force sales of properties as well. No bank, vulture fund or landlord is going to accept non-payment for more than 3 months.

if you think we have a housing crisis now just think what it will be like in 3 or 4 years.

Where can I go to get my head examined?

hobie21

These let's not pay our rent threads are so dumb. If a service cannot be paid for or a contract honored then seek an alternative. Move home to parents or find somewhere cheaper. Rental accomidation is a product like any other.

smeal

If the government did agree to cover all rent and mortgage payments for people who cannot pay due to job losses/ working hour reductions I would worry that a lot of companies who are fully able to pay full wages would take unfair advantage and use it as a way of cutting their workers pay by say 50% and would use future business outlook as an excuse for doing so.

They’d be thinking “ah sure the government will fund my staff’s mortgages for the interim so I may as well make some savings now”.

Then you’re into a much worse recession when this thing is over with the government owing billions for unnecessary rent/mortgage cover when money could have been saved for helping kickstart the economy again.

Just a theory I know but I could see it happening. While I’m being paid I’m happy enough to continue paying for normal things that help our economy run along as smooth as possible so that normality is achieved again easier in the long run.

ChikiChiki

hobie21 wrote: »

These let's not pay our rent threads are so dumb. If a service cannot be paid for or a contract honored then seek an alternative. Move home to parents or find somewhere cheaper. Rental accomidation is a product like any other.

Normally I would agree but this is unprecedented. Situation is quite different.

Not a great strategy to have everyone piling in with their elderly parents in a pandemic is it?

Allowances, whatever they may be, have to be made for the nature of the disruption.

c0rk3r

We received a rent review notice to increase our rent by 4% in December. This happens every year like clockwork. The first payment is due next month at the increased rate.

I imagine this increase is now void with the new moratorium being signed in next week ? Also, do they have to give us another 90 days ? When the emergency measures are lifted i don't mind paying the increased rate (depending on the landscape of the country).

Jesus, i was just about feeling like i was finally in a good position from the last recession now this crap.

hatrickpatrick

hobie21 wrote: »

Rental accomidation is a product like any other.

In your opinion. Many people strongly disagree.

Hudur

This is from last week:



https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0319/1124168-evictions-ban-coronavirus/


"
The Government has announced a temporary ban on evictions and a pause on rent increases for an initial period of three months, while the Covid-19 crisis is ongoing.
The legislation is expected to be brought before the Dáil next week.
Minister for Housing Eoghan Murphy, who announced the measures, said they were necessary measures to help renters.
He said: "If you're a renter and your rent is frozen for the period of this emergency you can't be asked to pay more in rent than you're currently paying.
"Also if you're a renter you can't be asked to leave the accommodation that you are in for the period of the emergency.""

Any idea if this is coming and how it would work? If someone has got notice X months ago as landlord is selling, still don't have move out?

Beasty

Threads merged

Hudur

Asked from RTB in chat:

Q:
how does that work if notice is already given? And moving date in next month

A:
They do not have to move during the Covid outbreak.

And they just gave this link for reference:
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/news/emergency-measures-announced-for-the-rental-sector/

tonightontv

c0rk3r wrote: »

We received a rent review notice to increase our rent by 4% in December. This happens every year like clockwork. The first payment is due next month at the increased rate.

I imagine this increase is now void with the new moratorium being signed in next week ? Also, do they have to give us another 90 days ? When the emergency measures are lifted i don't mind paying the increased rate (depending on the landscape of the country).

Jesus, i was just about feeling like i was finally in a good position from the last recession now this crap.

I don't think there is specific guidance for this scenario. Should the landlord confirm to the tenant that a notified increase no longer applies if they are asked?

I'm in the same boat, I was given 90 days notice back in December and the increased rent is due in April. Has anyone seen confirmation from a landlord or letting agency?

I'm concerned that if I don't pay the increased amount next month that I could be in breach of my obligations.

Hudur

Hmm, so I am renting my place from landlord X and was supposed to move out next month. Person Y bought this from my landlord and would be moving in.

So I will be living here for next three months still, I pay my old rent to X or Y and person Y will stay where they are now.

This is a bit embarrassing, but I guess law is law.