Corona Virus and licence applications

BattleCorp

Vizzy wrote: »

I always copy everything and take a note of the Garda's "number" at the desk.

Also, on the GDPR issue, you should be aware that the application must be available at all times i.e. if you go in and ask to see your application and they can't produce it there and then, then that is a Data Breach and must be reported to the DPO within 72 hours.

On the paperwork being available at all times, how does that work because that sounds very unworkable to me.

Supposing you hand it into your local Garda Station. They don't do firearms applications so they send it to the FO in another station who does them. In some cases, he has to send it on to the District Office. So, how can your local Garda Station give you it when they have sent it to another station?

Usually with a data request, the authorities have 30 days to reply.

Witcher

Vizzy wrote: »

I always copy everything and take a note of the Garda's "number" at the desk.

Also, on the GDPR issue, you should be aware that the application must be available at all times i.e. if you go in and ask to see your application and they can't produce it there and then, then that is a Data Breach and must be reported to the DPO within 72 hours.

There's no such rule.

cookimonster

Vizzy, I'll have to agree with the previous posters. My local station is the District HQ were all the outlying stations in the district send the paperwork onto.
Out of the cohort of lads I shoot with only two of us have local stations as HQ the rest don't. So the paper work has to be forwarded on up the chain

cookimonster

Ok Happy Days
Two licences in the post today- one substitution and one renewal.

For the substitution the paper work went in end January the start of February. Acknowledgement letter issued on the 09 February and License in the post today.

The renewal went in mid January, I got acknowledgement on the 26th Jan, the Grant notice on the 01 Feb, Paid on 24 Feb, License today 03 March.

dunner515

Hi all,

License arrived today. I had applied for a moderator but I have no "S" on my license. Does this mean I wasn't granted it or have they done away with the "S" on the license?

cookimonster

dunner515 wrote: »

Hi all,

License arrived today. I had applied for a moderator but I have no "S" on my license. Does this mean I wasn't granted it or have they done away with the "S" on the license?

No they are still on the license card.

Grizzly 45

cookimonster wrote: »

Ok Happy Days
Two licences in the post today- one substitution and one renewal.

For the substitution the paper work went in end January the start of February. Acknowledgement letter issued on the 09 February and License in the post today.

The renewal went in mid January, I got acknowledgement on the 26th Jan, the Grant notice on the 01 Feb, Paid on 24 Feb, License today 03 March.

As it should be when the system works.

BattleCorp

dunner515 wrote: »

Hi all,

License arrived today. I had applied for a moderator but I have no "S" on my license. Does this mean I wasn't granted it or have they done away with the "S" on the license?

Phone or call in to the station and ask the Gardai if it was granted or not. It happened to me before that it was granted but someone forgot to push the key to type the S on the licence. Took 4 days for them to fix it.

Vizzy

BattleCorp wrote: »

On the paperwork being available at all times, how does that work because that sounds very unworkable to me.

Supposing you hand it into your local Garda Station. They don't do firearms applications so they send it to the FO in another station who does them. In some cases, he has to send it on to the District Office. So, how can your local Garda Station give you it when they have sent it to another station?

Usually with a data request, the authorities have 30 days to reply.

Ok, here goes.


Under Article 4 of the GDPR regs - Definitions,- this is what is stated


"For the purposes of this Regulation:
12. ‘personal data breach’ means a breach of security leading to the accidental or unlawful destruction, loss, alteration, unauthorised disclosure of, or access to, personal data transmitted, stored or otherwise processed"


This then feeds into this;


"Art. 5 GDPR Principles relating to processing of personal data;

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1.Personal data shall be:


f. processed in a manner that ensures appropriate security of the personal data, including protection against unauthorised or unlawful processing and against accidental loss, destruction or damage, using appropriate technical or organisational measures (‘integrity and confidentiality’).


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[FONT=Roboto-Light,Arial][FONT=Roboto-Light,Arial] 2. The controller shall be responsible for, and be able to demonstrate compliance with, paragraph 1 (‘accountability’)."


Now, if you arrive at your Garda station and ask to see your recent application ( remember it is a form, a photo and possibly a doctors letter and a Gunclub membership) they are obliged to provide you with it.
There may be a good reason why they can't produce it there and then as the Garda dealing with it is out on patrol or is sick, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it needs to be available and not "accidentally lost".
Common sense will probably prevail and the Garda will tell you to call back in 2-3 days and you will probably agree.
But if you call back and the application cant be produced, then that is a Data Breach and must be reported.


As to the issue of the application being sent from a sub-station to a main station, no problem- the Garda in the sub-station just informs you that the application is in the main station, you go there and you can inspect it ( or not).

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cookimonster

Your example makes no sense where documents must be processed through various hands / departments.

If it was a case where the various individuals, offices or departments were copying and retaining your information, in this instance your application forms and associated paper work, then it could be construed as a breach of data protection.

But the whole process here requires your information to be forwarded through the organisation and in this case to up date records (I would hazard a guess, like certain peices of information, permanently).

If on the other hand those involved in such a process could not trace or find your documents that's a different matter.

Vizzy

cookimonster wrote: »

Your example makes no sense where documents must be processed through various hands / departments.

If it was a case where the various individuals, offices or departments were copying and retaining your information, in this instance your application forms and associated paper work, then it could be construed as a breach of data protection.

But the whole process here requires your information to be forwarded through the organisation and in this case to up date records (I would hazard a guess, like certain peices of information, permanently).

If on the other hand those involved in such a process could not trace or find your documents that's a different matter.

There is no problem with information passing through various sets of hands or between different offices within a Garda station(or anywhere else for that matter).
The idea of GDPR though is to get organisations to ask themselves why they are retaining information,for example, photos.Once you have submitted a photo, there should be no need to re-submit it again and again. What do they do with them ? Are they destroyed after X number of years ? If they are, fine, but do the Gardai have a policy on it and are they sticking to it.


The last bit of your post is what I am trying to highlight - if they mislay your info, then that is a Data Breach and must be reported to the Data Commissioner.
And what I was trying to explain in my previous post was that the fact that your information is not "available" is possibly a breach also.
The Regs don't mention any length of time that your records are unavailable - a week, a month ?.
This is where common sense comes in. If it is reasonable for the Gardai( or any other organisation) to take a week to locate files because of staff leave, sickness, rotas etc, the DPO will have no issue with this.
On the other hand, if you go in for a number of days and are fobbed off with "oh he'll be here tomorrow", then the Data Commissioner takes a very dim view and things go downhill very quickly.

BattleCorp

Vizzy wrote: »

The idea of GDPR though is to get organisations to ask themselves why they are retaining information,for example, photos.Once you have submitted a photo, there should be no need to re-submit it again and again. What do they do with them ? Are they destroyed after X number of years ? If they are, fine, but do the Gardai have a policy on it and are they sticking to it.

The last bit of your post is what I am trying to highlight - if they mislay your info, then that is a Data Breach and must be reported to the Data Commissioner.
And what I was trying to explain in my previous post was that the fact that your information is not "available" is possibly a breach also.
The Regs don't mention any length of time that your records are unavailable - a week, a month ?.
This is where common sense comes in. If it is reasonable for the Gardai( or any other organisation) to take a week to locate files because of staff leave, sickness, rotas etc, the DPO will have no issue with this.
On the other hand, if you go in for a number of days and are fobbed off with "oh he'll be here tomorrow", then the Data Commissioner takes a very dim view and things go downhill very quickly.

To be honest it looks like you are making a lot of assumptions.

For example, you can't demand to see your info immediately. You can't even agree a common sense deal to see it in two or three days like you have mentioned. You have apply for it under a Subject Access Request and submit a Subject Access Request Form (F20) and the Gardai have one month to reply (or longer should there be extenuating circumstances such as the info you request being complicated to retrieve).

Source: https://www.garda.ie/en/information-centre/data-protection/
and
https://www.dataprotection.ie/sites/default/files/uploads/2019-10/FAQ%20Guide%20to%20Data%20Subject%20Access%20Requests_Oct19.pdf

Secondly, what has resubmitting a photo got to do with GDPR? You have a point about keeping old photos on file unnecessarily but certainly photos have to be updated regularly because peoples' physical appearance changes as they age. For example if you held a photo of 18 year old me beside a photo of 40something year old me, you wouldn't think it was the same person (unfortunately for me).

Agreed, the Gardai should be in trouble for mislaying or losing your info, so yes, that may be a GDPR breach.

Vizzy

BattleCorp wrote: »

To be honest it looks like you are making a lot of assumptions.

For example, you can't demand to see your info immediately. You can't even agree a common sense deal to see it in two or three days like you have mentioned. You have apply for it under a Subject Access Request and submit a Subject Access Request Form (F20) - Don't have to use this( might be the preferred way for the Gardai, but can be done verbally)and the Gardai have one month to reply (or longer should there be extenuating circumstances such as the info you request being complicated to retrieve).Thats why I used the example of the application form and attachments - its not a copy of War & Peace.

Source: https://www.garda.ie/en/information-centre/data-protection/
and
https://www.dataprotection.ie/sites/default/files/uploads/2019-10/FAQ%20Guide%20to%20Data%20Subject%20Access%20Requests_Oct19.pdf

Your two links agree with what I am saying i.e. they are the rules that the Gardai say they are operating to.

Secondly, what has resubmitting a photo got to do with GDPR? Again, I was only using the photos as an example. But even at that, why do they need a copy? You meet a Garda at the desk and they can certify on the application that it is actually you You have a point about keeping old photos on file unnecessarily but certainly phothttps://b-static.net/vbulletin/images/editor/color.gifos have to be updated regularly because peoples' physical appearance changes as they age. For example if you held a photo of 18 year old me beside a photo of 40something year old me, you wouldn't think it was the same person (unfortunately for me).

Agreed, the Gardai should be in trouble for mislaying or losing your info, so yes, that may be a GDPR breach.

There is no MAY about it, it is a Data Breach.
Furthermore, if the Gardai want to stick to the "we have a month to reply" argument, fine. But, if it transpires that during the month that you data cant be located, then they need to make the Data Commissioner aware of it. No ifs, buts or maybe's about it. They then need to update the breach if your data turns up.
I certainly don't want my data going missing, but if it does go missing I want the Gardai to make sure that they are taking steps to find out where it went and tell me what they are doing to remedy the situation.
Gone are the days when they can tell you that they cant find it and ask you just to submit it again.

BattleCorp

Vizzy wrote: »

There is no MAY about it, it is a Data Breach.
Furthermore, if the Gardai want to stick to the "we have a month to reply" argument, fine. But, if it transpires that during the month that you data cant be located, then they need to make the Data Commissioner aware of it. No ifs, buts or maybe's about it. They then need to update the breach if your data turns up.
I certainly don't want my data going missing, but if it does go missing I want the Gardai to make sure that they are taking steps to find out where it went and tell me what they are doing to remedy the situation.
Gone are the days when they can tell you that they cant find it and ask you just to submit it again.

I use the word 'may' because innocent until proven guilty by the Data Commissioner 'n all that. But you are nitpicking there.

You are correct about being allowed to do a SAR verbally but it isn't advised. It still blows your 'common sense 2 or 3 day' point out of the water. It's still a month, or two months depending on the circumstances to provide you with your information. It doesn't matter if the data is one page or War and Peace, the process is the same. They still have a month (or two in some cases) to provide it. Once the two months is up, then they should notify the Data Commissioner of the breach. Or you can complain to the Data Commissioner.

I think the photo is for their records and not to identify you on the spot. I suppose if you were on the run after going mental with your firearm, they'd have a photo of you to release to other Gardai or the media.

One problem I have with the whole data protection thing is how do you prove to the Data Commissioner that you handed in a firearms application to the Gardai in the first place? What happens if the Gardai said they never had that data because you never submitted it? The Gardai don't give a receipt on the spot to say you've handed in the application. That's a flaw in the whole process.

clivej

Took exactly 2 weeks to get the licence grant letter in the post today.

Grizzly 45

My main point is this on licenses;
Why are firearms applications the "most lost " bits of paperwork in the entire aGS organisation?
For a bureaucracy that handles literally hundreds of thousands of bits of official paperwork every day, you never hear of arrest warrants, passport related paperwork, bail forms, speeding tickets, or the like going lost. Lost firearms applications seem to be THE most mislaid files ever.
So it leads to a couple of conclusions;

1] They are extremely sloppy with confidential personal data of applicants, with a "Meh, so what?" attitude to this whole procedure and storage of confidential data.

2] If this is a genuine problem, which it seems to be as these forms get lost all the time apparently, that some sort of corrective measures and protocol would be put in place to make sure this never happens again. You wouldn't be in business for very long in the private sector in any trade having losses like this in your branch offices.

3] Or it's a " We don't want you to have this at all,so we'll feed ya some line here of pure Bull that we lost it and you can go away and fill it up again, so we can play games with you. and hopefully, you'll get bored and FO for yourself and not bother us anymore.!"

The whole thing is set up to give them as much leeway as to obfusticate,and delay and long finger this entire procedure, its an utter joke. Get a quicker decision on where to build a house in the countryside, than you get on owning a gun in Ireland:rolleyes:

JP22

IMO and from speaking to colleagues I think it depends on your location, country wise that is and possibly the efficiency or otherwise of the station concerned.

I have held single/multiple licenses for about 35 years, longest wait was about 16 weeks for a new application, average for me in that time was about 8/9 weeks, best turn-around was ten days for a sub.

I wonder are license applications really lost (as in actually lost in the system) or is is just
bad management or
simply license applications not judged important and get shoved to the end of the line or
are license applications only looked at every 6/8 weeks or so.

One wonders.................

clivej

JP22 wrote: »

IMO and from speaking to colleagues I think it depends on your location, country wise that is and possibly the efficiency or otherwise of the station concerned.

I have held single/multiple licenses for about 35 years, longest wait was about 16 weeks for a new application, average for me in that time was about 8/9 weeks, best turn-around was ten days for a sub.

I wonder are license applications really lost (as in actually lost in the system) or is is just
bad management or
simply license applications not judged important and get shoved to the end of the line or
are license applications only looked at every 6/8 weeks or so.

One wonders.................

My longest application took 7 months, for my Sako 308. Applied on 1st April :eek:.
In that time there were 4 change of Superintendent. I'd say each one knew they were only there for a few weeks and put the applications in the 'In Box'. In the end I got to see the 'Last' Super and the grant letter was with me that week.
Quickest was this last application that took exactly 2 weeks from submission to getting the grant letter in the post.

Grizzly 45

JP22 wrote: »

I wonder are license applications really lost (as in actually lost in the system) or is is just
bad management or
simply license applications not judged important and get shoved to the end of the line or
are license applications only looked at every 6/8 weeks or so.

One wonders.................

Or really LOST, like one case here in Limerick where a whole bunch of them ended up in the station rubbish skip in the oughties. Happened up in Dublin too I belive,along with a handgun as evidence as well about the same time of the Aherne gun grab.

dunner515

BattleCorp wrote: »

Phone or call in to the station and ask the Gardai if it was granted or not. It happened to me before that it was granted but someone forgot to push the key to type the S on the licence. Took 4 days for them to fix it.

So I finally got through to the FO to ask about my moderator. The moderator was granted but the "S" was not printed on my license. The FO said they will post out a new license with the "S" on it.

Zxthinger

Written Permissions for new firearm's licence:

Whats the craic with this.. I was going to drop a new application into Garda station tomorrow but I don't have genuine signatures from the two farmers that I use..

I could sign for them.. and I don't think that would be a problem... but are wet signatures actually being requested in the current situation??

otmmyboy2

Zxthinger wrote: »

Written Permissions for new firearm's licence:

Whats the craic with this.. I was going to drop a new application into Garda station tomorrow but I don't have genuine signatures from the two farmers that I use..

I could sign for them.. and I don't think that would be a problem... but are wet signatures actually being requested in the current situation??

When I was renewing I just emailed my perms a typed up form with the sections from the firearms renewal perms section, they printed them & signed, scanned them back to me and I emailed them to the FO along with letting them know I'd dropped off the paperwork.
On the FCA1 I wrote in the margins something like "see emailed landowner's permissions'".
It got granted and not questioned, and my FO is a stickler for paperwork, so maybe that'd be an option?

BattleCorp

Zxthinger wrote: »

Written Permissions for new firearm's licence:

Whats the craic with this.. I was going to drop a new application into Garda station tomorrow but I don't have genuine signatures from the two farmers that I use..

I could sign for them.. and I don't think that would be a problem... but are wet signatures actually being requested in the current situation??

I would never be inclined to sign anyone else's name, especially on something going in to the Gardai.

You could type up the letter and include the land owner's phone number so that the Gardai can phone them to see if the pemission letter is genuine. That said though, I recently applied for a new licence and included a genuine signature from a land owner.

Zxthinger

Ok. So there's no official statement on it.

I can sign for both of them if I have there permission to do so, (and I do)

justbehindit

Just to add to license waiting times applied 15th December and just got the grant letter today. So about 3 month waiting time. Had one before that in October 2020 and it was only 2 months waiting.

Grizzly 45

The better half just got her grant notice for her 1st .22 rifle within 10 days in Ennis...:eek:
Hats off to the Ennis AGS on this one!

Feisar

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The better half just got her grant notice for her 1st .22 rifle within 10 days in Ennis...:eek:
Hats off to the Ennis AGS on this one!

What did ye go with in the end up?

JP22

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The better half just got her grant notice for her 1st .22 rifle within 10 days in Ennis...:eek:
Hats off to the Ennis AGS on this one!

Super, well done AGS.

42 days in and waiting.

otmmyboy2

Finally granted my second sub the other day.
Delighted, 22 bolt action for a 22 modern sporting rifle!

Took over 3 months for the sub, but still delighted.

Grizzly 45

Feisar wrote: »

What did ye go with in the end up?

Marlin papoose...Her choice and budget.:pac: