Boss forcing us to cancel holiday due to Coronavirus

jface187

Hey guys.

My Girlfriend and I are supposed to go to Amsterdam at the end of the month.
Her boss just said to her if she goes to Amsterdam, when she comes back she has to self isolate for two weeks. She was told she would not be paid for these two weeks?

Is this legal? We either cancel our holiday and lose 500 euro or she doesn't get paid for two weeks? Were not in any position to take this kinda hit.
She works in a shop by the way.

Talk a good long look in the mirror.
500e ffs

smurph6

Definitely don't risk flying. There will be other holidays

Guffy

Not stopping you from going. Giving you a choice.

Salary Negotiator

By not going and not spending your travel money you'll likely recoup a lot of that €500.

gibgodsman

Is this even a question? 503 cases in the Netherlands currently, Ireland going into a semi lockdown as we speak, and your worried about a 500 euro holiday to smoke some weed?

Her employer is completely right, you want to take the risk, fine, but don't expect his company to take it when she returns

o1s1n

As someone who left the country last week and is now pretty freaked about having to travel through two airports to get home on Wednesday - don't go.

sbsquarepants

It's really up to health agencies and governments to decide where you should and shouldn't travel - not random shop owners.

As it stands there is nothing official to say don't go, that may well change by the time you are going or it may not, if it does, you'll get your money back. That's really all that you need to be concerned about. Your boss doesn't get to tell you where you can go on holidays!

He also only knows what you tell him by the way!

KeithTS

Just be smart.
You going may have minor, if any, harmful effects on you or yours but you may carry something home, sit beside a colleague and a few weeks later their elderly relative gets ill.
Lots of people are losing out financially here but a lot of people are also losing their lives so have some perspective.
Stay home and get mashed for the week instead, Amsterdam is going to pretty grim at the moment anyway.

py

jface187 wrote: »

Hey guys.

My Girlfriend and I are supposed to go to Amsterdam at the end of the month.
Her boss just said to her if she goes to Amsterdam, when she comes back she has to self isolate for two weeks. She was told she would not be paid for these two weeks?

Is this legal? We either cancel our holiday and lose 500 euro or she doesn't get paid for two weeks? Were not in any position to take this kinda hit.
She works in a shop by the way.

1. Go on holiday, lose 2 weeks pay, maybe lose job, maybe catch coronavirus moving through an airport or two.

2. Stay home, lose 500 euro, don't lose 2 weeks pay, better chance of keeping job, maybe catch coronavirus anyway but probably a lesser chance than visiting airports.

The right option is #2 all day, every day. The boss is giving you options, not forcing you in to anything.

Chances are flights might be grounded by the end of the month so hold off on cancelling, you might get a full refund.

_Brian

Suck it up buttercup

Jim Root

people like you are why stupid HR policies exist.

Icepick

this is why we cannot have nice things

wpd

go on your holiday and enjoy yourself
when you come back turn up for work and if sent home take him to wrc

there is no travel ban on Amsterdam and there is no advice to self isolate for 2 weeks

your boss has no right to tell you how to live your life outside of working hours and to put extra restrictions on
you that law does not

wpd

wpd wrote: »

go on your holiday and enjoy yourself
when you come back turn up for work and if sent home take him to wrc

there is no travel ban on Amsterdam and there is no advice to self isolate for 2 weeks

your boss has no right to tell you how to live your life outside of working hours and to put extra restrictions on
you that law does not

Are you sure about that?

People returning from annual leave in areas of known corona virus outbreaks are being told to stay home for 2 weeks. These are extra ordinary measures not covered by law, the Government is literally changing illness benefit policy to cover people who have not yet been confirmed ill. So hold your horses on the legal advice.

1hnr79jr65

To answer your questions first.

1. Can the company ask her to self isolate if you go on this trip ?
A. In the interest of employee welfare, YES they can ask you to stay at home.

2. If the company gets your partner to self isolate can they refuse to pay her ?
A. Legally NO they can't as she may be fit for work yet they are telling her to stay at home so she must be paid if they wish her to remain home.

3. Can the company fire your partner if you both intend on taking this trip? (as a side note of your situation)
A. That depends on a number of factors, the 2 mains points being firstly a company has a right within reason to change or grant holidays, this virus would be a very good reason to cancel time off without repercussion for company and she could be in breach of company policy for failure to attend work if you both go on holiday. Another point is if your partner is still on probation, if this is the case and you intend on going on holiday then the company could dismiss your partner without reason during probation.

Something to take into consideration though, €500 is alot of money for some to lose, however is the risk of putting yours, family, friends or others health more important than this trip ?

Also do you have insurance to cover this issue ? If not i would suggest waiting for your flights to be cancelled by airline anyways as another poster pointed out.

wpd

Dav010 wrote: »

Are you sure about that?

People returning from annual leave in areas of known corona virus outbreaks are being told to stay home for 2 weeks. These are extra ordinary measures not covered by law, the Government is literally changing illness benefit policy to cover people who have not yet been confirmed ill. So hold your horses on the legal advice.

where are you getting that advice from?
do you really think the 50,000 coming back from cheltenham are going to self isolate for 2 weeks? Is Varadkar going to self isolate for 2 weeks when he comes back from America?

wpd

wpd wrote: »

where are you getting that advice from?
do you really think the 50,000 coming back from cheltenham are going to self isolate for 2 weeks? Is Varadkar going to self isolate for 2 weeks when he comes back from America?

Government advice is literally being updated on a daily basis. God knows what it will be like in 3 weeks time. I am an employer and we are now making plans for a forced shutdown in case there is an escalation in measures to prevent the spread of infection. So the advice given today may be changed tomorrow. If a large number of cases are diagnosed in people travelling back to Ireland after Cheltenham, then yes, there is likely to be a mass self isolation, and if Varadker is found to have come in contact with someone diagnosed, then yes, he also will self isolate.

Have you been living under a rock the past few days?

wpd

Dav010 wrote: »

Government advice is literally being updated on a daily basis. God knows what it will be like in 3 weeks time. I am an employer and we are now making plans for a forced shutdown in case there is an escalation in measures to prevent the spread of infection. So the advice given today may be changed tomorrow. If a large number of cases are diagnosed in people travelling back to Ireland after Cheltenham, then yes, there is likely to be a mass self isolation, and if Varadker is found to have come in contact with someone diagnosed, then yes, he also will self isolate.

Have you been living under a rock the past few days?

ah now I see what the problem is
1. you are an employer so think there is no issue telling staff to do what suits you
2. you cant have a proper discussion without insulting people!

wpd

wpd wrote: »

ah now I see what the problem is
1. you are an employer so think there is no issue telling staff to do what suits you
2. you cant have a proper discussion without insulting people!

What?

Do you think employers want this? This is likely to be disastrous and in some cases ruinous. But employee and public safety comes before business interests, so if given instructions by the Government/HSE, we all have to follow them regardless of the impact on business. And no, I have no issue telling staff what to do in the interest of safety to colleagues and the public.

un5byh7sqpd2x0

Dav010 wrote: »

Are you sure about that?

People returning from annual leave in areas of known corona virus outbreaks are being told to stay home for 2 weeks.

Are you sure about that?

PS: they’re not.

wpd

Dav010 wrote: »

What?

Do you think employers want this? This is likely to be disastrous and in some cases ruinous. But employee and public safety comes before business interests, so if given instructions by the Government/HSE, we all have to follow them regardless of the impact on business. And no, I have no issue telling staff what to do in the interest of safety to colleagues and the public.

so this is the information from govt on travel- where does it say holland??
The Department of Foreign Affairs has advised people to avoid all non-essential travel to China and Italy.

They have also recommended against all non-essential travel to some areas in Spain. These are Madrid, Vitoria and Labastida in the Basque Country and La Rioja.

wpd

Dav010 wrote: »

What?

Do you think employers want this? This is likely to be disastrous and in some cases ruinous. But employee and public safety comes before business interests, so if given instructions by the Government/HSE, we all have to follow them regardless of the impact on business. And no, I have no issue telling staff what to do in the interest of safety to colleagues and the public.

and this is the govt advice to employers
Happy to update you from under my rock.

Workers who are requested to stay at home by their employer (COVID-19)
Published: 10 March 2020
From: Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Employers are requested to follow public health advice and should not ask staff to stay away from work except in accordance with this advice.

Where employers send staff home in circumstances where they are not advised to do so, it is expected that they will continue to pay staff as normal.

Any person who is not advised to self-isolate in accordance with the up-to-date guidelines of the HSE, but is requested to stay at home by their employer as a precaution against the spread of Covid-19 will, in situations where the employer cannot continue to pay their wages, be considered to have been temporarily laid-off and can apply for an income support in the form of a Jobseeker's Payment or Supplementary Welfare Allowance.

biko

I agree with her boss.

wpd

wpd wrote: »

and this is the govt advice to employers
Happy to update you from under my rock.

Workers who are requested to stay at home by their employer (COVID-19)
Published: 10 March 2020
From: Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Employers are requested to follow public health advice and should not ask staff to stay away from work except in accordance with this advice.

Where employers send staff home in circumstances where they are not advised to do so, it is expected that they will continue to pay staff as normal.

Any person who is not advised to self-isolate in accordance with the up-to-date guidelines of the HSE, but is requested to stay at home by their employer as a precaution against the spread of Covid-19 will, in situations where the employer cannot continue to pay their wages, be considered to have been temporarily laid-off and can apply for an income support in the form of a Jobseeker's Payment or Supplementary Welfare Allowance.

There may be a lot of changes if the spread escalates. Incidentally, there has just been a confirmed case in Cheltenham racecourse, and the Dept of health has been asked for clarification in relation to flights which hold more than 100 passengers considering they just advised entertainment venues to restrict to no more than 100 people. Each day is going to bring new updates and advice.

jface187

jface187 wrote: »

Hey guys.

My Girlfriend and I are supposed to go to Amsterdam at the end of the month.
Her boss just said to her if she goes to Amsterdam, when she comes back she has to self isolate for two weeks. She was told she would not be paid for these two weeks?

Is this legal? We either cancel our holiday and lose 500 euro or she doesn't get paid for two weeks? Were not in any position to take this kinda hit.
She works in a shop by the way.

Ignore others. You want to travel, then you can travel.

No, the boss can't do this. He has no right to enforce self isolation or threaten staff.

However, and with regards to the people having a pop at you, it's probable not a sensible thing to do from a health point of view and the risk of things getting worse regarding travel.

There's also the moral issue but that's on you guys

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

These are extra ordinary measures not covered by law.

The law doesn't work that way. The law states A and unless there's a B, then A stands.

Your boss cannot force you to take sick leave or unpaid leave unless it's in your terms and conditions already.

The government can change things because they are the government, hey boss is not a law maker

Jurgen Klopp

I'd give anything if you went and by the time you return ye are met with army personal to ship ye off to a metal container to quarantine for 2 weeks with only one bucket between ye

The selfishness is unbelievable

Niner leprauchan

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

The law doesn't work that way. The law states A and unless there's a B, then A stands.

Your boss cannot force you to take sick leave or unpaid leave unless it's in your terms and conditions already.

The government can change things because they are the government, hey boss is not a law maker

Today this applies, but today has been a day like few others. As I said, this is an extra ordinary situation which may require huge changes in the coming weeks to prevent the spread of this infection. Only time will tell whether changes to legislation will be necessary.

Also, would the WRC go against an employer for following Government advice if that advice changes by the time the op travels?

blade1

You don't lose €500.
That's gone already.

edit_me

Buy weed locally? Shouldn't be a problem

gibgodsman

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Ignore others. You want to travel, then you can travel.

No, the boss can't do this. He has no right to enforce self isolation or threaten staff.

However, and with regards to the people having a pop at you, it's probable not a sensible thing to do from a health point of view and the risk of things getting worse regarding travel.

There's also the moral issue but that's on you guys

Your not the smartest poster are you? The boss can do a temporary layoff to protect his other workers, absolutely, and no legal system will debate his choice at a time like this.

Ignore others and travel? God I cannot wait until you and everyone you know get this virus, will see you change that selfish tune

CIARAN_BOYLE

There was government guidance not to travel to italy when there was less cases than there is in the netherlands today.

I'd say government guidance will change by the time you are going on your holiday.

I wouldn't travel. I would consider it common decency to my friends and neighbours and workmates and to society in general.

I would hope you aren't allowed to travel by the time it comes around.

If you do travel I would hope that people (including your employer) takes reasonable precautions to protect themselves.

BattleCorp

wpd wrote: »

go on your holiday and enjoy yourself
when you come back turn up for work and if sent home take him to wrc

there is no travel ban on Amsterdam and there is no advice to self isolate for 2 weeks

your boss has no right to tell you how to live your life outside of working hours and to put extra restrictions on
you that law does not

Have you seen the state of Italy at the moment? Your post is absolutely idiotic, seriously.

The Netherlands have 804 cases of the virus and those numbers are rising rapidly. Yesterday they had 111 new cases and today they have 190 new cases.

All it takes is one idiot to do something reckless and infect a whole business/town/country.

Jeffrey Flat Seed

Jeffrey Flat Seed wrote: »

Are you sure about that?

PS: they’re not.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/coronavirus-restrictions-imposed-on-people-returning-from-spain-and-italy-1.4202056?mode=amp

A2LUE42

Clown working with my Brother in law didn't bother to tell anyone he was in Italy for two weeks and just went back to work without saying anything. He is now showing symptoms and is being tested and they are all concerned about the vunerable people in their lives that they are in daily contact with, such as elderly parents. Some people are just idiots.

skooterblue2

Jurgen Klopp wrote: »

I'd give anything if you went and by the time you return ye are met with army personal to ship ye off to a metal container to quarantine for 2 weeks with only one bucket between ye

The selfishness is unbelievable

What do you think it is going to be like a work when they return?
"You're the Dockhead who went against DFA advice and potentially brough brack another strain of COVID-19 to our work place. What a Cunp!!"
Now this wont be said to your face, it will be thought and muttered in dark corners.

Depending on the size of your employer, later on when you want favours and promotions, they may not go in your favour, they may not sponsor courses or projects of yours. In fact you should expect a direct snub when you return. I have seen this with one salty individual in a different circumstance (and times) who got relegated to broom cupboard office and everytime he wanted a promotion he was scoring in high 80's and being denied the course at interview level.

You are cribbing OP about €500? What about your health and career? This too will pass. Financially in 5 years no-one will remember this but people remember people who put them and their families in danger.

Sure go and have a great time but expect consequences and repercussion on your return.

BattleCorp

Many of the businesses that close down temporarily because of this won't open up again.

And that's the least of my worries to be honest. I'd be more worried about an elderly parent/aunt/uncle/friend etc. dying from this virus.............possibly because some cnut was more worried about their holiday than the safety of everyone else.

skooterblue2

Kind of reminds me of that character played by Brendan Grace in Father Ted.

emeldc

wpd wrote: »

where are you getting that advice from?
do you really think the 50,000 coming back from cheltenham are going to self isolate for 2 weeks? Is Varadkar going to self isolate for 2 weeks when he comes back from America?

Every fuggin' last one of them should be tested for the virus before they're let off the plane, bunch of selfish pr1cks.
Her boss is bang on.

gibgodsman

gibgodsman wrote: »

Your not the smartest poster are you? The boss can do a temporary layoff to protect his other workers, absolutely, and no legal system will debate his choice at a time like this.

Ignore others and travel? God I cannot wait until you and everyone you know get this virus, will see you change that selfish tune

Care to show me the legal right to lay someone off because they took a holiday? Love to see it.

No legal system will debate it? Strange systems you are used to. the Irish legal system allows all matters to be debated and considered.

And when I said travel, I said he could of he chose because that's his legal right. Did you see the part where I suggested he should maybe listen to people advise and make the correct moral decision?

So yes, I am pretty bright. I know the legal position here for starters and I know without a law being amended, the virus doesn't change a workers legal protection.

As for getting it, it's a virus, if I get it I get it. In fact I'm almost guaranteed considering the place I work and job I do. I'll isolate, I'll feel like **** and then I will get better just as all middle aged healthy people are.

I however, can't take holidays or stop going to work like yourself so I dunno really if I can be called selfish under the circumstances.

BattleCorp

BattleCorp wrote: »

Many of the businesses that close down temporarily because of this won't open up again.

And that's the least of my worries to be honest. I'd be more worried about an elderly parent/aunt/uncle/friend etc. dying from this virus.............possibly because some cnut was more worried about their holiday than the safety of everyone else.

Perhaps, and I'm playing devil's advocate here, perhaps the vulnerable should self isolate in advance?

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

Today this applies, but today has been a day like few others. As I said, this is an extra ordinary situation which may require huge changes in the coming weeks to prevent the spread of this infection. Only time will tell whether changes to legislation will be necessary.

Also, would the WRC go against an employer for following Government advice if that advice changes by the time the op travels?

The key issue here isn't the regusal to allow her back to work, it's the refusal to pay her.

If the boss forces someone to self isolate without showing symptoms, and it's a recommendation not a legal requirement at the moment, then it's the companies decision and payment should still be made.

If however it becomes a legal requirement as a result of an update to the 1947 act, the onus will be on the government to cover the staffs costs via sick benefit or unemployment benefit.

BattleCorp

BattleCorp wrote: »

Have you seen the state of Italy at the moment? Your post is absolutely idiotic, seriously.

The Netherlands have 804 cases of the virus and those numbers are rising rapidly. Yesterday they had 111 new cases and today they have 190 new cases.

All it takes is one idiot to do something reckless and infect a whole business/town/country.

His post is 100% accurate at the time of posting.

Emotions are being allowed to trump law in this thread.

Niner leprauchan

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

His post is 100% accurate at the time of posting.

Emotions are being allowed to trump law in this thread.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/people-returning-from-spain-italy-must-self-isolate-harris-982435

It is not at all clear that an employer would be required to pay an employee advised to stay at home when they come back from holiday as a precaution. The advice comes from the Government and they have altered illness benefit payment procedures to cater for absences due to corona virus.

The fact is, as this is such an extraordinary event, usual rules are being adapted almost daily. It really would be folly to take your advice and approach. By the time the op goes on holiday the situation is likely to have changed again. Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture rather than stating that what was the norm two weeks ago will be the same in two weeks time.

Shefwedfan

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Ignore others. You want to travel, then you can travel.

No, the boss can't do this. He has no right to enforce self isolation or threaten staff.

However, and with regards to the people having a pop at you, it's probable not a sensible thing to do from a health point of view and the risk of things getting worse regarding travel.

There's also the moral issue but that's on you guys

It would be better just to ignore you

First off OP do you care that little for your life or someone else that you would risk it for 500 euro? Have you even bothered to check refund policy with hotel/flight?

Only an absolute idiot would fly, first off people in Netherlands don’t want to see you and people in Ireland don’t want you back. So your just putting stress on your self in both situation

Countries are shutting down flight all the time, loads of Irish who are stupid and selfish enough to travel now have no route home, as far as I’m concerned let them off. Idiots

PS yes the boss can just fire people. Loss of earning will be critical now, if I was the boss I would just fire your GF, if she is more interested in a silly holiday then pointless having around company

People need to grow up, seriously 500 euro??? People are cancelling holiday costing thousands

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

https://www.newstalk.com/news/people-returning-from-spain-italy-must-self-isolate-harris-982435

It is not at all clear that an employer would be required to pay an employee advised to stay at home when they come back from holiday as a precaution. The advice comes from the Government and they have altered illness benefit payment procedures to cater for absences due to corona virus.

The fact is, as this is such an extraordinary event, usual rules are being adapted almost daily. It really would be folly to take your advice and approach. By the time the op goes on holiday the situation is likely to have changed again. Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture rather than stating that what was the norm two weeks ago will be the same in two weeks time.

Perhaps read the op? There's nothing 'advised' in the scenario. The boss is ordering the staff member not to come to work

You also can't predict the future. The law as it stands is as it stands. There is no ban on traveling to Holland, they're is no law that allows your boss to force isolation on you.

That may change, it may not but giving advice based on a so far, non existent rule and law is hardly sound.

KathleenGrant

Maybe the employer is not worrying about the legal implications of not paying someone for 2 weeks.
Maybe the employer is worried about the health and safety of other workers and the legal implications of potrntially exposing them to infection.

KathleenGrant

KathleenGrant wrote: »

Maybe the employer is not worrying about the legal implications of not paying someone for 2 weeks.
Maybe the employer is worried about the health and safety of other workers and the legal implications of potrntially exposing them to infection.

Possible, but again the op asked a specific question about the legality of the actions not the morality or reasoning.

Nor did the op ask for people's opinions on the travel itself but that's mostly what is being given.

lawred2

jface187 wrote: »

Hey guys.

My Girlfriend and I are supposed to go to Amsterdam at the end of the month.
Her boss just said to her if she goes to Amsterdam, when she comes back she has to self isolate for two weeks. She was told she would not be paid for these two weeks?

Is this legal? We either cancel our holiday and lose 500 euro or she doesn't get paid for two weeks? Were not in any position to take this kinda hit.
She works in a shop by the way.

Tough sh!t