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What about Fritz though?
Or your mobile phone?
A lot of ways around it.
Worth noting too that two clubs withdrew entirely from the 4NCL online in protest at one of their players being accused of cheating. Lichess effectively invites you to prove you weren't cheating (but suggests that the best thing to do is admit you were cheating, because you were). That's not an ideal approach to take.0 -
Loads of players were banned for cheating including multiple teams who made the play offs thanks to the points acquired by their engine assisted team mates.
Funny enough the team's who withdrew in protest players were in my opinion certainly cheating and were subsequently caught on a stream cheating vs Michael Adams. You just have to look at their games and it's quite obvious. Quite disappointing for Gonzaga as we lost narrowly to one of the teams who withdrew and a couple of other teams who had players banned. Happy to report Gonzaga had 4 teams in the competition and not one player was banned.
Without webcams you wont find strong players playing anything longer than 3/0 online now as its so easy to cheat.0 -
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the setup.. surely the phones wouldn't be any more of an issue than at a normal match?What about Fritz though?
Or your mobile phone?
A lot of ways around it.
And it's not difficult to check if a machine has Fritz on it. And you'd want to be pretty brazen to copy the PGN/FEN (presumably there are sites that don't provide or can disable this) and open up Fritz and stick it in, while there's an arbiter wandering up and down somewhere behind you.
There will always be some way to cheat, even it is farfetched. At what point does the whole endeavour stop being about simply playing a game and start becoming an exercise in espionage?0 -
Mass gatherings of 50 people indoors and 200 outdoors will be allowed from 29 June.
Mr Varadkar said that all going well, that will rise to 100 indoors and 500 outdoors on 20 July.0 -
Well I was specifically looking at this suggestion -Maybe I'm misunderstanding the setup.. surely the phones wouldn't be any more of an issue than at a normal match?
Cheating would definitely be a possibility then.Maybe we should look into also playing league matches like this also - e.g. instead of a team from Dublin travelling 100 miles on a Saturday for a league match against a provincial club why not play the match on the provincial club's home night, with each team playing from their respective home venues? Even if some matches still took place on Saturdays, it would cut down drastically on travelling time.
The other suggestion - of weekenders at least partly online - is maybe doable, but it's a lot of screens for an arbiter to keep an eye on. It'd be very hard to definitively rule out cheating even in that environment I think.0 -
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Your point about how infectious an opponent might be is crucial. Given the amount of deaths among front line healthcare workers it is logical to deduce that "viral load" is a very important issue therefore having a screen as well as masks can only be prudent.Whoa! That escalated quickly.
Yes, I was replying to you.
It's a question of what the purpose of the screen is. Is it the main way you are protected? Or is it a backup, just-in-case additional precaution? It seems to me that its usefulness or not depends on what role it is playing in the overall arrangements.
Here the main way you are protected is that you are playing a single, known, player, who presumably is not showing symptoms, and who presumably is not in a household with anyone who is showing symptoms. Or so it seems to me.
It still seems (slightly) useful to me to add a screen. I have some additional distancing if my opponent turns out to be infectious after all. (Do infectiousness levels vary? If so, is my opponent now slightly infectious or very infectious?) My opponent also has some additional distancing if I am infectious, let's not forget that. And the screen doesn't radically alter the experience.0 -
ECU have a list of tournaments which are going ahead in July on their website -
https://www.europechess.org/international-chess-tournamemts-in-europe-from-june-to-july/
It'll be interesting to see how these go. I wouldn't be in a rush to enter any as yet, but if they go ahead with no hitch, that would be a big boost.
The Croatian championships seem to be going ahead as normal - https://hrvatski-sahovski-savez.hr/ftp/CroCh2020/0 -
ECU have a list of tournaments which are going ahead in July on their website -
https://www.europechess.org/international-chess-tournamemts-in-europe-from-june-to-july/
It'll be interesting to see how these go. I wouldn't be in a rush to enter any as yet, but if they go ahead with no hitch, that would be a big boost.
The Croatian championships seem to be going ahead as normal - https://hrvatski-sahovski-savez.hr/ftp/CroCh2020/
Good news indeed. I can see no problem with the return of elite events and round robins but I don't know how most opens with limited numbers of entrants would be a viable financial proposition for organisers and sponsors. We could see tournament entry fees increase substantially.0 -
The Croatian championships seem to be going ahead as normal - https://hrvatski-sahovski-savez.hr/ftp/CroCh2020/
not all events in the balkans going quite so smoothly... I watched the first set of his match thinking it was a rerun (as there as a full stadium). Djokovic is an anti-vaxxer though.. https://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/531480530 -
Yeah, Djokovic does seem a bit...carefree. Doesn't he reckon God will protect him, so he doesn't need to worry about sciencey stuff like vaccines?
Problem of course it'd only take a handful of people like that at a chess tournament (or indeed anywhere) and you've got a big issue.
I see the Croatian championships has a photo gallery - so the tables are all spaced far apart, and there is disinfectant on site too. The main thing though is that they are playing on a normal board at a normal distance, with no masks, etc. As I say, I'm happy to wait and let others be the guinea pigs on that. But it is encouraging.0 -
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It is great that the Irish Championship is going ahead but what are the prospects for other tournaments over the coming twelve months? The top section of the City of Dublin will probably go ahead if the Irish Championship goes well but will the other sections be lost? The New Year all play alls should be safe enough as should the Senior age tournaments . Gonzaga? maybe the top section but probably without any visiting G.Ms and I.Ms . Sadly I can't see Bunratty, Cork, Kilkenny, Limerick, Ennis ,or Malahide happening but I could be wrong. There should be a way to play league matches even if it means playing games in small batches. Those of us who travel to foreign tournaments will miss them too. All in all not a very pleasant outlook until a vaccine becomes available but maybe things won't be as bad as I'm predicting. It certainly makes one appreciate all the great tournaments we usually have that we maybe take for granted.0
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macelligott wrote: »Entries to the Irish as of 09.07.2020
Now with the withdrawal of Mark Quinn. One down and maybe another 20+ to go?
This is certainly not an Irish Championships, except in name only, let alone a serious chess tournament. More like an endurance and sadomasochistic torture test.
While it is very understandable that adjustments need to be made and certain guidelines put in place and acted upon, for the greater good. There is also such a thing as total overkill, and to such an extent, as to transform things so much as to render this nothing like a serious chess event.
One has to wonder what self respecting chess player would be willing to subject themselves to all of these impositions, restrictions and generally unpleasant conditions. Most yes, just about possible. But with a couple that just go way too far, and make the whole thing a sick joke, or freak show. All just to play some serious chess?
Bad enough that there are so many do this , "do that, say this, sign that, wait here, aspects involved. Including the very arbitrary nature of certain things, ripe and open for all manner of potential abuse or misuse. There is even no mention of what is the correct exact temperature! and what is not. What are the margins of error?
Then there is the declarations (which should be already understood as a condition of entry, and required only once at the start of the tournament) Various minor irritants and intrusions that make for a potentially very unpleasant chess playing experience in which focusing and concentrating on just playing chess is made harder if not well nigh impossible.
To cap it all all off, and as as if to underscore the impression of a certain contempt or utter indifference to all the participants there are no details about the prizes. Aside from a reference to a prize fund of 4000, There is no information about 1st,2nd, 3rd (4th 5th?) or about Grading prizes, if there are any, and if so, what are they.
For some players the hefty entry fee at least can be mitigated for by having a chance to win a nice grading prize, in addition to to the chance to play so many strong and titled players. Yet here in this national championships for goodness sake, no mention or details posted anywhere. It is like the players (many are in effect good customers, buying into a product) just don't matter, which is sad to see and disappointing. How hard can it be to have such things all figured out and done right well in advance?
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However, all of this and my grips here could be endured and a proper chess tournament still go ahead with some/enough integrity and authenticity retained. That is until one considers two genuinely outrageous, intolerable and irredeemable impositions.
1. “Face coverings are required while both players are at the board and recommended throughout.” (This should be optional for players not compulsory)
It is said that the usual distance across the board is 0.5 M-0.7 M. So, very little effort or change would actually be needed for players to each just move their chairs back a little bit more and bingo you have 1M, which is a fine safe distance for two people not talking to each other.
Especially if players are simply mindful of and considerate of others at all times. Just by the practice of good hygienic etc etc. Washing hands before each game. Sitting across a table not talking is no danger at all.
As is, this should be a deal breaker for any serious chess player. It should be optional if a player wants to cover their face or not. Will someone turn up to play in full gas mask or Halloween mask? Why not?
Forcing someone to do this for up to 5 hours is crazy and potentially far more unhealthy than any risk associated with there being no mask/face coverings.
There any number of valid reasons,on heath grounds too, why someone would not be able or willing to cover their face for any long periods. Just good adherence to all the other guidelines would suffice.
2. “Players will be asked to pick their preferred option of the below two options for the event with distinct areas in the playing hall (upper area and lower area) for each (board numbers will move accordingly):”- ” (Default if players' preference does not align)” (Should be optional and the other way around,not compulsory)“ 2 board option: 2 meter distance between players, one clock with extended levers, moves spoken after move is made but before clock is pushed.”
• 1 board option: (should be the default) 1-1.5 meter distance between players. (NB: normally, there is about 0.5-0.7 meters between players)
This second absurdity is again an unnecessary imposition and more of a parody or freak show. It too could be tolerated IF it was the other way around and optional by default. As in, if two players want this then go ahead. Not allowing one player to dictate the playing conditions of both.
Leaving aside the crazy scenario of time scrambles and having to not only call out moves (imagine if there are lots of games with this happening?) but also to use a lever to press a chess clock? Is this a comedy show now?
It is so contrived and at odds with a normal game of chess. Might as well play online or have two people in separate rooms! Which again is not proper chess and by no means "over the board" chess. More like bonkers over the boardS chess.
Bound to distort and ruin the whole chess playing experience. Bottom line is, that unless these two issues are changed to optional, then I would not be surprised if there were lots of withdrawals, which means it would be better to just cancel the whole Championships this year, or until latter in the year?
Chess is supposed to be enjoyable too (as well as bloody hard work) and the purpose of a national championships is to produce an Irish champion after such a player has shown himself/herself to be the best player over these nine days, and with everyone striving to play to the highest chess standards they can.
In other words, we want our best players to be trying to show and produce their best. This simply cannot happen under the conditions currently being suggested, just a couple of amendments would overcome that.
Having a less than ideal Irish ch and playing conditions from what we would all like and is more usual, with most of these guideline changes,is manageable and would still retain the prestige and authenticity of a proper championship. As is, it is hard to understand any self respecting player being willing to endure this ordeal.
All that being said, nobody surely wants to deny or overlook the fact that genuine efforts are being made by the ICU and all those involved with trying to make the tournament happen, with the best of intentions, and of course that should be applauded and appreciated. However, as of now, I think based on what we know the Irish ch currently should not go ahead this year, or at this time. Irish chess and our chess players deserve better than this.
The British ch has been cancelled and though that is a very different event from ours in so many ways, I think it shows that the unthinkable option of cancelling the Irish ch can not be ruled out. It would be best to hear the views of as many as the prospective participants as possible. How many listed as playing still intend to play now I wonder?0 -
The only thing I agree with in the above rant is that the move speaking, long handled clock option is contrived and ridiculous and should certainly not be the default option. With all the precautions that are in place before we even get to the board I think that the other option is perfectly safe and much more like a "normal" game of chess. Masks can be uncomfortable but they are a sad necessity so should be compulsory.
The overall situation is not ideal by any means but it is what we are going to have to endure if we want to play any live chess in the next twelve months or so.
No one is being forced to play so if they don't like the conditions better they stay at home and stop moaning while the rest of us get on with it.0 -
I largely agree with that. (Well, not sure on the board/clock format - I'd like to see the proposed default, but I would much rather play at one board if it were possible)
But given the current situation, I think it's absolutely absurd to suggest that wearing a mask while sat down opposite someone for 4 hours or more be optional, while giving absolutely no reason at all for this view. And this at a time where mask wearing is being made mandatory in areas like public transport and is being advised in shops. (I'm sure you don't have to wear the mask for the full length - there presumably is the option of getting up from the board, leaving the room, and taking the mask off for a little while)
Largely unsubstantiated rants about why any self-respecting chess player would want to play under conditions which seek to address the current unprecedented times are really unhelpful, in my view.0 -
Plenty of reasons were given but you seem more interested in attacking the poster and not the post or points made. Why you choose to ignore all these reason mentioned is a matter for yourself. I confess that I don't understand that. Being 1 M apart from someone on the other side of a table with no contact and NOT TALKING is very safe so long as each player observes all the other guidelines and good practices. Not a shred of evidence to indicate otherwise.I think it's absolutely absurd to suggest that wearing a mask while sat down opposite someone for 4 hours or more be optional, while giving absolutely no reason at all for this view.
There is however countless articles, evidence and research, plus videos online that explain why wearing a mask is a bad idea. Knock yourself out in doing some proper research on the issue. In the context of sitting down playing a chess game for hours it is indeed absurd to be forced to wear a face covering/mask. We will have to agree to disagree on this I guess.
Rather you than me.And this at a time where mask wearing is being made mandatory in areas like public transport and is being advised in shops..
Wearing a mask on public transport and in shops has the logic that they are confined and enclosed spaces in which people will be right up against each other potentially, but crucially, by the very nature of bus trips or shop visits,for very short periods of time,
It can make sense in some situations for a short period of time, though it is very suspect as to how effective and worthwhile it is anyway. There can be situations alright, but not the one we are discussing. Far better to keep a safe distance of 1M or more.
Read again? In practice you do, unless you suggest standing 2 M away from the board?(I'm sure you don't have to wear the mask for the full length - there presumably is the option of getting up from the board, leaving the room, and taking the mask off for a little while).
I would think it a lot more unhelpful to wrongly suggest my comments were a rant just because you don't like or agree with the views expressed. I standby the view that I think any self respecting chess player participating under these conditions is wrong to do so. I would call into question how much self respect they have as chess players and people actually, but of course others are free to disagree.Largely unsubstantiated rants about why any self-respecting chess player would want to play under conditions which seek to address the current unprecedented times are really unhelpful, in my view.
That is just my view and you know, sure, it may be a minority view or even the only such view? Fair enough then. Though I know of 3 potential participants who suggested to me that they thought the same on this issue and the specific 2 points I made.
Each to their own view and best of luck for anyone content to go along with such conditions. I am just giving my view and nothing more.
As I have said "It would be best to hear the views of as many as the prospective participants as possible. How many listed as playing still intend to play now I wonder? "
BTW Are you playing in the Irish this year yourself then? Do you not think it would be a much more unpleasant chess playing experience to play in the this years Irish ch than any you have played before?0 -
The only thing I agree with in the above rant is that the move speaking, long handled clock option is contrived and ridiculous and should certainly not be the default option. .
Seems to be a trend for some people to describe a post as a rant if they don't like or agree with some or most points being made. Curious how you can't just disagree and say why and leave it at that.
I agreeWith all the precautions that are in place before we even get to the board I think that the other option is perfectly safe and much more like a "normal" game of chess.
They can be far more than just uncomfortable, they can be very unhealthy and for some people even dangerous, especially for long periods of time. If they were a necessity then I would suggest there should be no Irish ch and cancel it until this crisis has passed.Masks can be uncomfortable but they are a sad necessity so should be compulsory.
However because it is so clearly not a necessity I think it should be optional. If you feel better about wearing one then good for you. I would not object to that. I just object to being forced to wear one in a chess game lasting up to and over 5 hours and in a tournament lasting 9 days in a row.
All the other measures make it perfectly safe and risk free to sit 1M on the other side of a table with no contact and NO TALKING. So, I do wonder about what is your real agenda here?
Other than you being right about it not being ideal, which we all agree on, I just don't agree with your other assertion or contention about having to endure this particular imposition now, or going forward in other tournaments.The overall situation is not ideal by any means but it is what we are going to have to endure if we want to play any live chess in the next twelve months or so.
I think there are plenty of measures that keep us safe and do not require such drastic restrictions and impositions. Chess tournaments are not going to be viable and wont happen if your approach prevails.
That is an odd and very rude notion you have there. Firstly nobody suggested anybody is obliged to play but people are being forced to go along with certain conditions which some will find unacceptable and sufficient reason not to feel they can participate.No one is being forced to play so if they don't like the conditions better they stay at home and stop moaning while the rest of us get on with it.
Mostly the vast majority of these conditions can be accepted and endured, but a couple have been identified as just too egregious and problematic and may (will for sure in my view) result in withdrawals or non entry.
You say you are happy to go along with the conditions, notwithstanding having a preference to change one of the two issues mentioned by me, So that is great for you. We just have a strong disagreement about that.
I have the clear view, which is that it is a bit crazy for any self respecting chess player to adopt your position and subject themselves to what I regard as a very unpleasant and anti chess, anti chess player situation. You don't share this view, fair enough, Again we agree to disagree, heck maybe nobody will hold my view on this. lets see I guess?
I happen to think it will be a very unpleasant tournament to play in and produce a lot of bad chess or at least seriously under par chess. Generally a fairly crap Irish ch I fear.
Can't see how it could be otherwise really. I mean, you could have people play tennis with one hand behind their back alright. It would still be tennis, true enough, but who would want to play in such an event?
In expressing my concerns and unhappiness with the playing conditions (adjusted and changed beyond all normal recognition) I don'' think it fair to suggest I am just moaning either. I have detailed what and why are the concerns and reasons, and most importantly merely have said
"It would be best to hear the views of as many as the prospective participants as possible. How many listed as playing still intend to play now I wonder? "
So far, although I known you probably did not mean to speak for others when you said:
and are only giving your own personal views and not that of other participants."stop moaning while the rest of us get on with it.".
We do only have your view and that of the other guy cdeb, whom I am not clear about whether or not he is playing himself this year. So while I appreciate these two responses from you both, as I mentioned
"It would be best to hear the views of as many as the prospective participants as possible. How many listed as playing still intend to play now I wonder? "
It seems to maybe come down to having a crap Irish ch this year in August, or delaying it until later in the year or cancelling the 2020 Irish like the British id with theirs for 2020.
Or lastly, just make a couple of amendments to the two points I have identified and carry on with what could still be an authentic and good Irish ch. If I had to go by the reaction here so far (which might mean nothing- only one, maybe two players) and I had to bet now. My guess is that it might well be the crap Irish ch option and things will trundle ahead as they are.
I assume that if however they do change the point about the face-covering/mask and make it optional then you won't be moaning and ranting? You will go along with that decision and still play surely?
Fair play to if you can manage to enjoy playing an Irish ch under these conditions. Hopefully it is a great 9 days for you .0 -
Re Spiders web: “They (Masks) can be far more than just uncomfortable, they can be very unhealthy and for some people even dangerous, especially for long periods of time”.
I trust the ICU will take best Qualified medical advice on the wearing of masks.
As a backup we have Dr. Paul Wallace playing.
BTW I do not regard Gemma O’Doherty and her group to be particularly qualified in this matter!0 -
Actually, no reasons were given. You just waffled on interminably quoting vague stuff on the internet somewhere.spidersweb wrote: »Plenty of reasons were given but you seem more interested in attacking the poster and not the post or points made.
But you've made some points now in fairness; let's have a look.
What's the relevance of NOT TALKING? Do you think TALKING is what causes the virus to transfer? (Hint - it's breathing, hence the masks) Anyway, what about the fact that people may be TALKING when telling each other the moves (as per current guidelines)? If being 1m away from someone for 4 hours or so is safe, why is the current state guidelines that social distancing of 2m should be maintained? If you're going to put out a position in direct conflict with the current State and medical advice, you'd want to have a pretty good backup for that reason. But you've nothing.spidersweb wrote: »Being 1 M apart from someone on the other side of a table with no contact and NOT TALKING is very safe so long as each player observes all the other guidelines and good practices.
No - you're the one making the claim; you show me your sources. Don't leave it to me to stumble on them. I don't tend to be on conspiracy sites and might easily miss them.spidersweb wrote: »There is however countless articles, evidence and research, plus videos online that explain why wearing a mask is a bad idea. Knock yourself out in doing some proper research on the issue.
Do you know what else is confined and enclosed? A chess tournament. Where two people are sat directly opposite each other for four hours.spidersweb wrote: »Wearing a mask on public transport and in shops has the logic that they are confined and enclosed spaces in which people will be right up against each other potentially, but crucially, by the very nature of bus trips or shop visits,for very short periods of time,
People won't be "right up against each other" in shops or on public transport as both are operating severe capacity restrictions. Buses, DARTs, etc, have marked off half their seats as not to be occupied, and shops have signs saying how many customers can come in at any one time.
And why is it crucial that the exposure in public transport/shops is only "for very short periods of time"? Do you think that after, say, 45 minutes, the continuing stream of virus particles start to defeat themselves, and so the chances of catching the virus from someone decrease? That would be bizarre.
No - logically, the longer you are in relative close contact with someone who is infected, the greater the chance of catching the virus. To argue otherwise is simply bizarre.
Do you never, ever, at all, get up from the board?spidersweb wrote: »Read again? In practice you do, unless you suggest standing 2 M away from the board?
There is no reason you can't get up to leave the room, head outside for two minutes and take the mask off there for a while.
What an absolute load of twaddle. Any self-respecting chess player should have a concern over their health. Maybe you don't?spidersweb wrote: »I standby the view that I think any self respecting chess player participating under these conditions is wrong to do so. I would call into question how much self respect they have as chess players and people actually, but of course others are free to disagree.
I'm not playing; I'm about 10 points shy of entering. My interest is in that the Irish is potentially the template for tournaments (such as leagues) going forward.spidersweb wrote: »BTW Are you playing in the Irish this year yourself then? Do you not think it would be a much more unpleasant chess playing experience to play in the this years Irish ch than any you have played before?
It does sound like it would be a more unpleasant chess experience than a standard weekender alright. But you know what? There's a ****ing lethal pandemic on at the moment. Of course things will be a bit different. If anyone doesn't want to play under those conditions, then that is absolutely their right. But to suggest that the conditions should be relaxed, contrary to current medical advice, with no more reason given than an unspecified YouTube video somewhere, is selfish in the extreme.0 -
Okay, in the jungle of words being written we are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Instead of just contradicting each other let's try to find some solutions.As I see it there are two main issues i,e the speaking moves long handled clock option (lets call it VAR for convenience as like VAR it is unworkable and takes away from the essence of the game) and the wearing of masks.
In the original survey sent out by the ICU it was not made clear that under VAR there was any speaking involved so in my reply I said that I didn't mind which option was used. Now that I see what is intended I am dead set against VAR. I am sure that Spidersweb and I are not the only entrants who feel this way so as Spidersweb suggests we need input from as many players as possible so people need to speak up. My objection to VAR is that it would feel nothing like a normal game and that speaking moves would cause mayhem. Many people write moves incorrectly at times (I certainly do) so it would be just as easy to call out the wrong move. Many people also use different notation , a youngster mightn't know what Bishop to Queens Bishop six meant for example and if someone told me where their springer was going I would think that they were talking about their dog. Moves could be misheard, people could deny saying what they said, time trouble would be complete mayhem. Honestly it beggars belief that anyone could have even thought up VAR in the first place. The ICU is trying to be all things to all people by having two options, it would be better to have another survey then just pick one option and if people don't like it they can stay away. I would not play under VAR so that is my position clear on the matter.
As for masks, I am not a medical man but it does seem to me that wearing one is a wise precaution. Masks are very uncomfortable and the ones that I normally wear when going to the shops or wherever would certainly be far too heavy to use for hours at a time so I have bought some lighter disposable masks that are much easier to wear for a long period.
We all want to play chess and under the best conditions possible so let's sort this out before the Championship starts. I am hoping that the upcoming trial games will show just how unworkable the VAR option is and that some common sense can be restored to proceedings.0 -
I have been captain of several visually handicapped teams. They have to use two boards. Often they don’t speak a common language but this is easily overcome.
Also many of us will have played against blind players in the leagues which requires two boards and calling out the moves. It doesn’t present a major problem.
In normal circumstances, I’d prefer one board. But if the organisers of the Irish and/or my opponents prefer two boards - I’m ok with that.
With regard to notation - FIDE requires everyone to use algebraic notation. So the “Bishop to Queens Bishop 6” notation mentioned above by Sodacat11 is illegal notation under FIDE rules.
Sighted players have the advantage they can look at their opponents board, unlike blind players - who can not. So any ambiguities can be easily rectified.0 -
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Oh, By the way, my uncle was a dentist and wore a mask for 8 hours a day. Although he did die, I doubt it was from wearing a mask at work :-)0
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macelligott wrote: »Oh, By the way, my uncle was a dentist and wore a mask for 8 hours a day. Although he did die, I doubt it was from wearing a mask at work :-)
Irrelevant. No chance he wore any such mask for 8 hours a day- or anything like it.
I know a guy who smoked till he was 80+ I also know a guy from China taller than most Irish people. I even know a fat overweight Asian person too.
Never knew a chess tournament in which the players were forced to wear masks. Might catch on alright and then very soon after there won't be any chess tournaments anymore! maybe chess players should all just become dentists then!0 -
macelligott wrote: »
Forgive me but overall this is just an absurd and positively weird and ignorant comment you make, but at least you are one of the actual prospective participants. So at least we now have another bit of feedback (depressing as it is to witness)
Have no idea idea why on earth you say this:macelligott wrote: »BTW I do not regard Gemma O’Doherty and her group to be particularly qualified in this matter!
Who? What? How or Why could that have one scintilla of relevance to anything that was posted anywhere in this thread by anybody?
Totally bizarre and very suspect bad faith comment.
Well considering they have not even mentioned the actual exact temperatures to "pass or fail a temp test, and the margins of error, why would you think they got any " Qualified medical advice on the wearing of masks." and if they did then surely they should be obliged to publish it! If one wants to go down that road.macelligott wrote: »I trust the ICU will take best Qualified medical advice on the wearing of masks.
There is plenty of advice available from various experts and a lot of COMMONSENSE that would confirm that wearing masks for any length of time is potentially unhealthy and even dangerous for some people.
Nobody disputed they have their place and can be useful, just not wise or appropriate for two people passively sitting across from each other over a table 1 M apart for potentially hours without any physical contact or verbal engagement, to play chess.
All the while also taking many steps to adhere to best practice and safety guidelines and being isolated from others in the room.
Another irrelevance, who cares if he is a Doctor? (You I guess oddly enough)- its irrelevant, and we don't know if he is still playing yet. Or how many will not not play because of the extent of the various impositions and or just a general lack of interest in all the hassle, discomfort and potentially very unpleasant atmosphere or experience to be had.macelligott wrote: »As a backup we have Dr. Paul Wallace playing.
The playing lists often change and in this case people withdraw with a full refund right up to the day before.
Sodcat has now said he won't play games if forced to abide by one of the two key rules I mentioned. So all anybody who wants a free point need do now is choose that option, when and if drawn against him, and its' a handy free point..
Map out from that the various possible points of friction, antagonism etc etc and who knows how chaotic or ugly things could get?
Adds to the view that maybe it is best to follow the example of the British, in this instance? Are we going to have an Irish ch just for the sake of it and at any cost?
Maybe you will be champion this year? Or maybe after the trial run they might make some sensible amendments such as those I have suggested. Probably not, but you never know.
As I have said "It would be best to hear the views of as many as the prospective participants as possible. How many listed as playing still intend to play now I wonder? "0 -
Actually, no reasons were given. You just waffled on interminably quoting vague stuff on the internet somewhere.
Unfortunately there is so much that is just wrong in your uninformed response, which sadly again is belligerent too, that I honestly don't think there is any point in refuting point by point so many of the factual errors and misrepresentations you make.
The more evidence I would produce and link to, from medical people and numerous very well respected "experts"in the fields, the more you would change the goal posts and come up with something else. Probably then throw out weird notions about Youtube- which I specifically did not mention actually, and conspiracy blah blah blah. Just can't win with your sort. Just don't think you are interested in the data and facts.
As it is now, in this case, it is you who wants to impose on others the wearing of face covering/masks and deviate from the normal practice. I have no objection to you or anybody wearing a mask. I only object to being forced to wear one in circumstances in which it is not necessary, and can indeed be unhealthy and dangerous for some people too.
Thus, it is you who should do the research, ( I already have extensively) inform yourself better and show your evidence that would back up the notion that we need such impositions. As I maintain, we don't.
I will however give one very specific example of why I think you are so wrong with so many things, and I would extrapolate out from that why you are frankly just incredibly badly informed and just don't seem to even know or understand some really key issues.
Crux of the matter- Talking!"What's the relevance of NOT TALKING? Do you think TALKING is what causes the virus to transfer?"
I had to do a double take when I seen this. I mean seriously, there is just no point in engaging with someone that unaware. The fact that you could think and write such a thing just collapses any faith or confidence I could have in almost anything you might then argue on this whole topic.
The main way the virus is spread is through tiny droplets which are spread particularly effectively by not merely breathing, but yes talking. So much so that there have been various advisories and complaints made to restrict and discourage people from raising their voices because talking is such an effective way the virus spreads from person to person.
If you are 1M apart from someone and do not talk and observe all the good practice guidelines, such as not breathing really heavy too, and in a manner that would propel and project droplets into someone. If you cough or sneeze, make sure to do it also in such a manner as to be considerate and protective of another person, then you are very safe indeed. Passively sitting across a table is very different from speaking to someone. The droplets don't get propelled as is the case when we talk. The louder the worse it is. sound travels in waves propelled out, just like the tiny droplets"(Hint - it's breathing, hence the masks) "
The purpose of a mask is to try not to spread if you are infected or think you might be. In which case, you should not enter the tournament at all! It is not for protection, though as I have mentioned many times, there can be cases in which it can help to reduce the spread of a virus, in time limited situations and rare circumstances.
A quick visit out into the real world will quickly disabuse you of any notion that the safe distancing of 2M is practised anything nearly like it is supposed to be in theory. Which is why sometimes a mask can be useful in enclosed and confined spaces like on public transport or busy shops etc etc.
The chess tournament being proposed here already has the very wise change to have all the tables for individual games 2 M apart from each other and it is not a case of having dozens or hundreds of people coming and going, as is the case in shops or public transport. Rather there are only about 30 players max (?) and on any given day one person 1 M apart across from you on the other side of a table, which I also understand also has some other plastic barrier? It is not a busy place or environment. Public meetings are already allowed for up to 50 people. Here there is much less than that."Anyway, what about the fact that people may be TALKING when telling each other the moves (as per current guidelines)? "
Read again, those cases are when there are two boards on two different tables and the players are nowhere bear each other at all!"If being 1m away from someone for 4 hours or so is safe, why is the current state guidelines that social distancing of 2m should be maintained?"
Because it is a general guideline based on lots of people interacting with lots of other people, not two people sitting passively apart from each across from each other with no engagement (TALKING) or physical contact with each other. Plus the 1 M or 2 M guideline is very fluid and different countries adopt different guidelines at different times? By the time the tournament starts we may well be down to 1 M anyway.
If you genuinely wanted to see a decent (very good- which it would be IF the players listed do all play) Irish ch and have the players, both perform at their best, and have the best conditions available, under difficult circumstances, then you would not be arguing in such bad faith and be against a couple of amendments to a whole host of changes and impositions (accepted) on the players.
The only people who should actually have any actual say in the matter aside from the ICU officials are those entered or prospective entrants for the Irish ch. It is they who have to give up 9 days (in a row) of their time and energy to play in what are already very different (very abnormal) and difficult circumstances.
Any previous times you have played in the Irish ch can hardly compare with what is being offered now. There has been so many other events cancelled or postponed this year all over the world, why not the Irish ch then?
The Irish ch is coming at the end of the peak and is a very small and manageable event but all I have argued for is amending just two points which are about making two things optional and trying to save the tournament from being a bit of a joke, a circus or freak show. Then it is better to not bother with the event at all?
It makes me wonder how far from a normal chess tournament would some people, like yourself, be willing to go? Just to plough on and hold the tournament for the sake of holding the tournament, rather than what is best for the tournament and most of all the players. Some of whom are paying hefty entry fees and good money to participate.
PS, BTW I am not being funny and I mean no disrespect, but it just occurs to me, and I am only being curious, but have you actually ever played in an Irish ch yourself? Would you play if you could this year?
As I have said "It would be best to hear the views of as many as the prospective participants as possible. How many listed as playing still intend to play now I wonder? "0 -
spidersweb wrote: »
Sodcat has now said he won't play games if forced to abide by one of the two key rules I mentioned. So all anybody who wants a free point need do now is choose that option, when and if drawn against him, and its' a handy free point.. [/B] "
Spidersass is mistaken in attributing the above comment to Sodcat (whoever he might be) as it was in fact me who said it. My point was also conveniently misinterpreted. I did not say that I would default any individual game if forced to play under VAR I said that I would not play in the Championship at all if that was the only option. I have since learned that most entrants favour the one board option and that that is likely to be the one used most often. The two board option is just there as extra insurance for anyone with an underlying medical condition or who may have vulnerable relatives at home. This is perfectly acceptable as far as I'm concerned so all being well I will be playing in the championship and not defaulting any games . I fully expect that most of the other twenty four entrants will play too.0 -
Spidersass is mistaken in attributing the above comment so Sodcat (whoever he might be) as it was in fact me who said it. My point was also conveniently misinterpreted. I did not say that I would default any individual game if forced to play under VAR I said that I would not play in the Championship at all if that was the only option. I have since learned that most entrants favour the one board option and that that is likely to be the one used most often. The two board option is just there as extra insurance for anyone with an underlying medical condition or who may have vulnerable relatives at home. This is perfectly acceptable as far as I'm concerned so all being well I will be playing in the championship and not defaulting any games . I fully expect that most of the other twenty four entrants will play too.
Honest mistake and misunderstanding by me regarding what you meant about maybe not playing etc. I stand corrected and thank you for clarifying YOUR position, which I now understand is that you won't play at all if forced to play under "VAR"
You then now further claim to have learned that most entrants favour one board- no such information has been made public to that effect anywhere yet to my knowledge- (Assume you are better informed then?) and so because there might only be a minority of people who be forcing you to play according to the "VAR" you will take the hit on those rare occasions and you will not - not play- in the Championship at all if that was the only option, to you.
I am still a little bit confused but hey that is my problem. You intend to play and expect not to have to play according to "VAR" except in an odd occasion? So some players can dictate your conditions of play in respect of the two boards and calling out moves "VAR" etc and you will accept that, so long as it is rare?
Have I got that wrong too. I assure you I do not want to "conveniently" get your position wrong at all. Very keen to understand exactly what you mean and YOUR position.
I am also curious what will be YOUR position if and when they change and make the wearing of masks/face covering optional? Will you refuse to play against a player or in the tournament at all then? If so, that would be you taking the position that you won't play unless players are forced to wear masks/face coverings?
As regards the positions and likely participation of, or other potential withdrawal of other players?
Well, as I have said "It would be best to hear the views of as many as the prospective participants as possible. How many listed as playing still intend to play now I wonder? "
I have no idea if players will participate or withdraw with the playing conditions currently on offer and would not dare to speak on anybodies behalf, but I do suspect a few at least won't be interested in playing. In any-case that will be a bit of a freak show and major disservice to the tournament and the players.0 -
How do you know unless you throw out some actual evidence from a medical person or an expert?spidersweb wrote: »The more evidence I would produce and link to, from medical people and numerous very well respected "experts"in the fields, the more you would change the goal posts and come up with something else.
To be clear, you have not produced any evidence at all from any medical person or any very well respected expert in the field. Not a jot. Not a teensy weensy iota.
So go on, try it.
One link.
Go on.
If your posts are anything to go by, it'll be fun.
Just one link to show that talking is how the virus transfers? Or how being on a bus is more dangerous than being at a chess match because the bus trip is shorter? Or how shops and public transport are dangerous because people are piling on top of everyone when in fact there's strict limits on how many people can enter?
One link.
That's all I'm asking.
Because right now, all you're doing is throwing out utter unverified crap - and dangerous crap at that; ideas that are fundamentally dangerous to people's health - and then going "You're so wrong" whenever someone corrects you.0 -
How do you know unless you throw out some actual evidence from a medical person or an expert?
To be clear, you have not produced any evidence at all from any medical person or any very well respected expert in the field. Not a jot. Not a teensy weensy iota.
So go on, try it.
One link.
Go on.
If your posts are anything to go by, it'll be fun.
Just one link to show that talking is how the virus transfers? Or how being on a bus is more dangerous than being at a chess match because the bus trip is shorter? Or how shops and public transport are dangerous because people are piling on top of everyone when in fact there's strict limits on how many people can enter?
One link.
That's all I'm asking.
Because right now, all you're doing is throwing out utter unverified crap - and dangerous crap at that; ideas that are fundamentally dangerous to people's health - and then going "You're so wrong" whenever someone corrects you.
As I have said "It would be best to hear the views of as many as the prospective participants as possible. How many listed as playing still intend to play now I wonder? "
With all due respect I have said all I have to you on the topic and have no further interest in ANYTHING you have to say on the Irish ch or any of the related issues. I refer you to my previous reply to you, which covers things well enough.
As I have said "It would be best to hear the views of as many as the prospective participants as possible. How many listed as playing still intend to play now I wonder? "0 -
And as I have said, it would be interesting to see one single link to back up the views you're espousing.
Because otherwise you're basically suggesting people play Russian roulette with their health to keep you happy.
That's not what you're saying, is it?
Go on.
One link.
One.0 -
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Ok then I agree you deserve that at least.And as I have said, it would be interesting to see one single link to back up the views you're espousing.
Because otherwise you're basically suggesting people play Russian roulette with their health to keep you happy.
That's not what you're saying, is it?
Go on.
One link.
One.
Seen as you are a fan of Youtube I will give you just this one. Of which there are countless more
https://youtu.be/oYI6ngjDUBo
Also Look up the RTE player and that guy Luke O Neil and the interview with Tubridy on the Late Late back when...and countless other examples. Then if you really have time on your hands use Google or DuckDuckGo and discover a wealth of papers and studies about the potential downsides and dangerous of masks, especially with prolonged use.
9 Days in a row being really crazy and yes potentially dangerous to the health of some people. I am no less concerned about my own health and others. So, while I have no objection to someone else wearing a mask I am all the more happy when they don't and crucially, that I am not be forced to wear such a mask at a chess tournament. Should be optional.0
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