Corona virus and social protection

Snow_White1987

Snow_White1987 wrote: »

Any self-employed affected have any luck getting a response yet?

Plot twist: a woman on the helpline just told me it was done across the board for the self-employed so they could examine 2018 earnings in detail (presumably when people submit their documents).

She’s going to call me back RE my own situation as it would seem I automatically lose out being newly self-employed but regardless, it’s an awful way to do it - why not tell everyone prior to the rate reductions that you need to submit 2018 tax returns? It’s so odd.

Irishphotodesk

Snow_White1987 wrote: »

Plot twist: a woman on the helpline just told me it was done across the board for the self-employed so they could examine 2018 earnings in detail (presumably when people submit their documents).

She’s going to call me back RE my own situation as it would seem I automatically lose out being newly self-employed but regardless, it’s an awful way to do it - why not tell everyone prior to the rate reductions that you need to submit 2018 tax returns? It’s so odd.

2018 would have needed to have been submitted by last October (2019), to be fair, anyone that was registered and operating as a sole trader/self employed in 2017/18 that hasn’t filed and paid in my opinion should not be able to get state benefits.
If my memory is correct the social welfare system only changed last year (2019) to allow self employed people to claim, which would meet the criteria of 2018 accounts needing to be filed.

It’s possible that revenue and social welfare are working together to identify people who have been avoiding tax and this is one method to identify those, but I think it’s more than likely because of the social welfare system change.

Dempo1

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

2018 would have needed to have been submitted by last October (2019), to be fair, anyone that was registered and operating as a sole trader/self employed in 2017/18 that hasn’t filed and paid in my opinion should not be able to get state benefits.
If my memory is correct the social welfare system only changed last year (2019) to allow self employed people to claim, which would meet the criteria of 2018 accounts needing to be filed.

It’s possible that revenue and social welfare are working together to identify people who have been avoiding tax and this is one method to identify those, but I think it’s more than likely because of the social welfare system change.

These are fair and valid points. My only defence of Revenue & SW is that it was clearly flagged on customers notices on both sites that 2018 is the year Revenue will use. This said, it extremely unfair to automatically reduce self employed pup payment without saying this would be the process whilst they verify details, if it was and I'm not sure it was policy people should have been warned, advised so as to be prepared as I've no doubt there are many completely dependent on this payment.

Snow_White1987

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

2018 would have needed to have been submitted by last October (2019), to be fair, anyone that was registered and operating as a sole trader/self employed in 2017/18 that hasn’t filed and paid in my opinion should not be able to get state benefits.
If my memory is correct the social welfare system only changed last year (2019) to allow self employed people to claim, which would meet the criteria of 2018 accounts needing to be filed.

It’s possible that revenue and social welfare are working together to identify people who have been avoiding tax and this is one method to identify those, but I think it’s more than likely because of the social welfare system change.

That is absolutely fair that they’ll want to weed out people avoiding tax but I think the issue is that even those that have all have had rates automatically cut. It would have been much simpler if they had asked self-employed to send in documents before all this - I had mine to hand and everyone who is eligible would have too.

Dempo1

Dempo1 wrote: »

These are fair and valid points. My only defence of Revenue & SW is that it was clearly flagged on customers notices on both sites that 2018 is the year Revenue will use. This said, it extremely unfair to automatically reduce self employed pup payment without saying this would be the process whilst they verify details, if it was and I'm not sure it was policy people should have been warned, advised so as to be prepared as I've no doubt there are many completely dependent on this payment.

Your completely correct and what has happened is quite disgraceful but sadly predictable, they seem to be fighting tooth and nail to reign in costs at the expense of those who are genuinely entitled

Snow_White1987

Dempo1 wrote: »

These are fair and valid points. My only defence of Revenue & SW is that it was clearly flagged on customers notices on both sites that 2018 is the year Revenue will use. This said, it extremely unfair to automatically reduce self employed pup payment without saying this would be the process whilst they verify details, if it was and I'm not sure it was policy people should have been warned, advised so as to be prepared as I've no doubt there are many completely dependent on this payment.

Exactly. It should absolutely have been said in advance.

And I still maintain it’s grossly unfair the newly self-employed might lose out simply because of the timeframe. Most of us paid tax in full in 2018 and have lost work due to a pandemic (no fault of our own) - we should be treated fairly. My 2019 tax is being filed right now so everything is always above board etc

Dempo1

It will be very interesting the figures on those claiming PUP on Monday. I know there was apparently 60k or so not added to last weeks drop. Obviously they want more and more of a reduction. Ideally because people are actually returning to work. If the numbers remain static, I predict an avalanche of Q's at intreo centres in early August, not withstanding the fact these centres only open till 1pm at the moment.

There's also an increase in the amount of TWSS recipients being newly laid off and I see on other threads more and more of these recipients unhappy at reduced wages, same hours and same work. Either way I don't see a pretty picture come August andl yesterdays increased deaths and infections is a worrying development.

HereinBray

Hi there,

Anyone had a similar issue?

I applied for the COVID PUP at the end of June as a self employed individual. I was denied as they didn't have evidence of PRSI payments. I forwarded on proof on monday - but haven't heard anything back.

Would anyone have a phone number I could try? I don't want to go past July 13th as that seems to be a date mentioned on the radio etc.

Thanks very much

HIB

Dempo1

HereinBray wrote: »

Hi there,

Anyone had a similar issue?

I applied for the COVID PUP at the end of June as a self employed individual. I was denied as they didn't have evidence of PRSI payments. I forwarded on proof on monday - but haven't heard anything back.

Would anyone have a phone number I could try? I don't want to go past July 13th as that seems to be a date mentioned on the radio etc.

Thanks very much

HIB

1890800024 is the number I believe, if you've forwarded proofs you'll be covered re 13th June deadline but sadly other self employed posters saying delays and very little communication from the department, at least you'll be able to confirm that have details etc

Snow_White1987

A very helpful woman called me back this morning but couldn't shed any further light – only said that it was normal to not have heard anything yet (even though I emailed 5 days ago) but couldn't say when we would.

They were only given an email to tell people, so they are none the wiser as to the status of everything.

WAW

Hi, this may have been covered but don't see it in thread. My husband was told back in April he wasn't entitled to anything as he was still trading however minimal - sole trader- Is there anyway he can get some payment? He's barely making anything now.
. His income is down significantly but he managed to keep one small bit of work going - he would have permanently lost that contract if he gave that up. Anyway, he's now going to have to reskill somehow as industry severely affected permanently. We wouldn't be entitled to a means tested payment I don't think.

Anyone have a better idea on this? If you are still trading but big loss of earnings can you apply for any assistance?

Dempo1

WAW wrote: »

Hi, this may have been covered but don't see it in thread. My husband was told back in April he wasn't entitled to anything as he was still trading however minimal - sole trader- Is there anyway he can get some payment? He's barely making anything now.
. His income is down significantly but he managed to keep one small bit of work going - he would have permanently lost that contract if he gave that up. Anyway, he's now going to have to reskill somehow as industry severely affected permanently. We wouldn't be entitled to a means tested payment I don't think.

Anyone have a better idea on this? If you are still trading but big loss of earnings can you apply for any assistance?

Morning, sorry to here this. Sadly your husband a victim of honesty, and perhaps should have claimed as not working. Allowances, whilst not actively encouraged are given for occasional once off earnings. As self employed, it's not straightforward as claiming saying JSA, but its an option. To be honest and if it's still open, I'd bite the bullet and claim PUP now. I believe it's still open albeit for a short time. Keep in mind though they'll seek 2018 trading figures and returns. It may however be too late with only 4 weeks left of these payment, he may infarct be better off just claiming JSA at his local intreo centre. It's a pity he left it so late. Best wishes

Snow_White1987

WAW wrote: »

Hi, this may have been covered but don't see it in thread. My husband was told back in April he wasn't entitled to anything as he was still trading however minimal - sole trader- Is there anyway he can get some payment? He's barely making anything now.
. His income is down significantly but he managed to keep one small bit of work going - he would have permanently lost that contract if he gave that up. Anyway, he's now going to have to reskill somehow as industry severely affected permanently. We wouldn't be entitled to a means tested payment I don't think.

Anyone have a better idea on this? If you are still trading but big loss of earnings can you apply for any assistance?

It’s actually slightly different for self-employed I was told and the same is on the gov.ie website. You are, as a sole trader, able to earn and claim the payment so long as earnings have been “significantly reduced” as per here:

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/68c144-what-to-do-if-you-are-self-employed-covid-19/

“You may, if your trading income has collapsed to the extent that you are available to take up other full-time employment if it was offered to you, receive a payment of €350 per week for so long as you are available to take up other work.”

And when it talks of confirming eligibility for the payment, it reiterates it here:

https://www.gov.ie/en/service/c77da-pandemic-unemployment-payment-confirmation/

“ or, if self-employed, your trading income has been significantly reduced.”

I’d definitely go ahead and tell him to claim now (he was clearly told the wrong information) and try to get it backdated when that time comes (I was told they’ll deal with this when the PUP ends and everyone will have to claim individually through their local Intreo office).

Though I’d get him to send his P21 for 2018 into the PUP email address to ensure he gets the higher rate given what’s happened to the self employed on the payment this week.

I’m sorry he was told this - early on they didn’t have the right information for the self-employed on those helplines and I finally found the information myself before I had it explained to me.

WAW

Snow_White1987 wrote: »

It’s actually slightly different for self-employed I was told and the same is on the gov.ie website. You are, as a sole trader, able to earn and claim the payment so long as earnings have been “significantly reduced” as per here:

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/68c144-what-to-do-if-you-are-self-employed-covid-19/

“You may, if your trading income has collapsed to the extent that you are available to take up other full-time employment if it was offered to you, receive a payment of €350 per week for so long as you are available to take up other work.”

And when it talks of confirming eligibility for the payment, it reiterates it here:

https://www.gov.ie/en/service/c77da-pandemic-unemployment-payment-confirmation/

“ or, if self-employed, your trading income has been significantly reduced.”

I’d definitely go ahead and tell him to claim now (he was clearly told the wrong information) and try to get it backdated when that time comes (I was told they’ll deal with this when the PUP ends and everyone will have to claim individually through their local Intreo office).

Though I’d get him to send his P21 for 2018 into the PUP email address to ensure he gets the higher rate given what’s happened to the self employed on the payment this week.

I’m sorry he was told this - early on they didn’t have the right information for the self-employed on those helplines and I finally found the information myself before I had it explained to me.

Thanks so much for this. So helpful. Unfortunately, those links don't seem to be working. I wonder if they have removed the info or just technical difficulties today?

Snow_White1987

WAW wrote: »

Thanks so much for this. So helpful. Unfortunately, those links don't seem to be working. I wonder if they have removed the info or just technical difficulties today?

That’s so strange as the links work for me!

If you type “Covid payment self-employed” into Google you should be taken to the link on gov.ie as the information is definitely the same and still up - it’s been there since April.

I’d also ring the Covid helpline on Monday and tell them you were given incorrect information - explain that almost all your income was lost as self-employed and yet you were still told not to apply which contradicts what’s on the official government website/the official guidelines for self-employed and they may be able to advise RE backdated pay.

loki7777

Links are fine. Check on pc if you are using phone now.

WAW

WAW wrote: »

Thanks so much for this. So helpful. Unfortunately, those links don't seem to be working. I wonder if they have removed the info or just technical difficulties today?

Those links are working again. I didn't really follow it.
It seems to say that if you have ceased trading, you can apply for the Covid payment. If you are still trading, you apply for the standard non Covid unemployment benefit for self employed. Is that right?

Snow_White1987

WAW wrote: »

Those links are working again. I didn't really follow it.
It seems to say that if you have ceased trading, you can apply for the Covid payment. If you are still trading, you apply for the standard non Covid unemployment benefit for self employed. Is that right?

My understanding from the website is that as self-employed you apply for the Pandemic Unemployment Payment (PUP) if your income has been significantly reduced.

I was told that, so long as you were still trading prior to Covid starting, you apply for PUP and that you should only apply for the Jobseeker’s Allowance (non-Covid unemployment benefit) if you were self-employed prior to the pandemic.

The PUP applies in all cases (including self-employed) so long as you lost work as a result of the pandemic. Otherwise, naturally, you’d just apply for the JSA.

Snow_White1987

WAW wrote: »

Those links are working again. I didn't really follow it.
It seems to say that if you have ceased trading, you can apply for the Covid payment. If you are still trading, you apply for the standard non Covid unemployment benefit for self employed. Is that right?

This part is slightly confusing:

“This payment can increase if you have a number of child dependents. To claim the higher payment you should complete the Jobseeker's Benefit for the Self-Employed or Jobseeker's Allowance claim form on MyWelfare.ie.

It may take some time to process this additional payment but you will in the meantime receive a minimum of €350 and any additional payment will be backdated when it is paid.”

But as I understand it, that paragraph only applies if you need extra income (more than the PUP payment of €350) if you’re self-employed and have dependents/Children.

Otherwise, you just apply for the PUP so long as the pandemic has affected your self-employment income.

Again, this is what I was repeatedly told so going off that.

inisboffin

Snow_White1987 wrote: »

It’s actually slightly different for self-employed I was told and the same is on the gov.ie website. You are, as a sole trader, able to earn and claim the payment so long as earnings have been “significantly reduced” as per here:

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/68c144-what-to-do-if-you-are-self-employed-covid-19/

“You may, if your trading income has collapsed to the extent that you are available to take up other full-time employment if it was offered to you, receive a payment of €350 per week for so long as you are available to take up other work.”

And when it talks of confirming eligibility for the payment, it reiterates it here:

https://www.gov.ie/en/service/c77da-pandemic-unemployment-payment-confirmation/

“ or, if self-employed, your trading income has been significantly reduced.”

There is a significant contradiction re this point coming from welfare themselves. The new declaration states that *any* work deems you ineligible for the PUP payment, whereas, as you state above, the initial statement indicated 'significant reduction'. This applies to SO many self-employed people, who might have a trickle of work in, but not enough to pay the phone bill in some cases. People are being told on the phone, that *any* work, "even an hour" disqualifies them from PUP payment. There is a contradiction. Now if work is invoiced before the Covid payment starts, that seems to be different.

Snow_White1987

inisboffin wrote: »

There is a significant contradiction re this point coming from welfare themselves. The new declaration states that *any* work deems you ineligible for the PUP payment, whereas, as you state above, the initial statement indicated 'significant reduction'. This applies to SO many self-employed people, who might have a trickle of work in, but not enough to pay the phone bill in some cases. People are being told on the phone, that *any* work, "even an hour" disqualifies them from PUP payment. There is a contradiction. Now if work is invoiced before the Covid payment starts, that seems to be different.

I was told on the phone to always go with what is actually on the gov.ie website.

There’s always been a contradiction when it comes to the self-employed, even now it says the website that you can have PUP if you have a “significant reduction” yet when it comes to confirming your payment it isn’t worded this way.

However, I’ve only been told to go by what’s on the gov.ie website itself.

I agree re invoicing, if it’s dated pre-Covid it seems to be fine.

Snow_White1987

Hi all, I got asked by the welfare portal to confirm my eligibility for PUP payment twice (no idea why, I assume it was a glitch). I filled it out on July 1st and then was asked to do so again on July 2nd.

Each time I received a confirmation email so I know they both went through but I’m slightly worried that as I applied twice it might involuntary mess something up on the system with my payment being stopped as a result...!

Can I assume it’s like the PUP application where they only consider the most recent date on the form and any other is cancelled out?

Thanks, there always seems to be something to worry about with these PUP payments if you’re self-employed!

Dempo1

Snow_White1987 wrote: »

Hi all, I got asked by the welfare portal to confirm my eligibility for PUP payment twice (no idea why, I assume it was a glitch). I filled it out on July 1st and then was asked to do so again on July 2nd.

Each time I received a confirmation email so I know they both went through but I’m slightly worried that as I applied twice it might involuntary mess something up on the system with my payment being stopped as a result...!

Can I assume it’s like the PUP application where they only consider the most recent date on the form and any other is cancelled out?

Thanks, there always seems to be something to worry about with these PUP payments if you’re self-employed!

Hi there, did you confirm via my welfare portal? If so, you should have a notification there to confirm receipt of eligibility. I had a similar issue but slightly different, I got ahead of myself, filled it in b4 they notified everyone, basically got 2 notifications, but I've a confirmed notification in my welfare portal.

Sorry, I see you did it via portal, your fine once you've got the confirmation

Snow_White1987

Dempo1 wrote: »

Hi there, did you confirm via my welfare portal? If so, you should have a notification there to confirm receipt of eligibility. I had a similar issue but slightly different, I got ahead of myself, filled it in b4 they notified everyone, basically got 2 notifications, but I've a confirmed notification in my welfare portal.

This is actually exactly what happened to me!

Even though I had one confirmed notification in the welfare portal, I panicked and filled the form in a second time...!
Again, I got a confirmation notification via the welfare portal so I’m assuming it’s still fine? My form with the July 2nd date will be taken into account on the system?

That’s what happened with the PUP - if you, for whatever reason had to fill in a claim again, they told me the system would only show the most recent claim/form/application.

Hoping that’s what will happen here when I’ve not messed anything up!

Dempo1

Snow_White1987 wrote: »

This is actually exactly what happened to me!

Even though I had one confirmed notification in the welfare portal, I panicked and filled the form in a second time 🙄

Again, I got a confirmation notification via the welfare portal so I’m assuming it’s still fine? My form with the July 2nd date will be taken into account on the system?

That’s what happened with the PUP - if you, for whatever reason had to fill in a claim again, they told me the system would only show the most recent claim.

Hoping that’s what will happen here when I’ve not messed anything up!

You'll be fine as long as you have the confirmation notification, I took a screen shot of mine, just in case

Snow_White1987

Dempo1 wrote: »

Hi there, did you confirm via my welfare portal? If so, you should have a notification there to confirm receipt of eligibility. I had a similar issue but slightly different, I got ahead of myself, filled it in b4 they notified everyone, basically got 2 notifications, but I've a confirmed notification in my welfare portal.

Sorry, I see you did it via portal, your fine once you've got the confirmation

Ah thank you, I assumed so but just wanted to be sure - you can never be too careful when it comes to that portal.

I reckon quite a few filled it in twice too if they got ahead of themselves as I did!

Snow_White1987

Dempo1 wrote: »

You'll be fine as long as you have the confirmation notification, I took a screen shot of mine, just in case

Thanks, I have it doubly confirmed as a result of filling in in twice!

I may take screenshots now, just to be extra careful, thank you for the tip!

Dempo1

Snow_White1987 wrote: »

Thanks, I have it doubly confirmed as a result of filling in in twice!

I may take screenshots now, just to be extra careful, thank you for the tip!

Better safe than sorry, the real worry is what's happening after the 10th August, although I'm back b4 then hopefully

Snow_White1987

Dempo1 wrote: »

Better safe than sorry, the real worry is what's happening after the 10th August, although I'm back b4 then hopefully

All signs point to it being finished on the 10th.

As someone self-employed, that both worries me and relieves me as I’m worried the self-employed will be targeted either by them not fixing the rates in time (I’ve only heard of one person receiving a reply to the PUPrate address and that was to refuse to put it up - this person sent the email after me - so perhaps they will only reply to those whose appeals were unsuccessful?).

Also, the contradiction when it comes to the messaging around the PUP criteria for the self-employed concerns me as well as the tax - if we’ll be severely hit on this when we file 2020 next year!

I hope to make up my lost earnings during this period for the remainder of the year and would hope, that even though I have lost out now and hence needed PUP, that my earnings in the later half of the year will bump my overall annual earnings up - if that happens, will I have to pay out a fortune in tax? If I continue to earn next to nothing I’ll owe little tax but I want to have decent earnings for the remainder of the year if at all possible.

As I’m only newly self-employed, I’m worried about everything! Tax/welfare has always scared me, ha

Dempo1

Snow_White1987 wrote: »

All signs point to it being finished on the 10th.

As someone self-employed, that both worries me and relieves me as I’m worried the self-employed will be targeted either by them not fixing the rates in time (I’ve only heard of one person receiving a reply to the PUPrate address and that was to refuse to put it up - this person sent the email after me - so perhaps they will only reply to those whose appeals were unsuccessful?).

Also, the contradiction when it comes to the messaging around the PUP criteria for the self-employed concerns me as well as the tax - if we’ll be severely hit on this when we file 2020 next year!

I hope to make up my lost earnings during this period for the remainder of the year and would hope, that even though I have lost out now and hence needed PUP, that my earnings in the later half of the year will bump my overall annual earnings up - if that happens, will I have to pay out a fortune in tax? If I continue to earn next to nothing I’ll owe little tax but I want to have decent earnings for the remainder of the year if at all possible.

As I’m only newly self-employed, I’m worried about everything! Tax/welfare has always scared me, ha

Fair play to you, I've seen your excellent posts and advice. What line are in? I'm just sorry you've not only had to deal with a decline in business but this outrageous targetting of self employed. Whilst I don't begrudge anyone, the TWSS is beggars belief, there's 1000's on this despite still laid off completely and the payments up to €2800 pm, we're is the fairness in that, the government are hell bent on ending pup but yet seem happy to continue TWSS which for many is actually the same thing albeit costing far more.

Hopefully you'll get the reduced rate resolved, one thing for sure is when pup ends, supports will have to continue albeit JSA/JSB, keep positive

Sorry just spotted tax worry, no is the answer, there will be a small liability re pup but its been well flagged revenue will be flexible, for paye they might estimate it against years earnings etc. The TWSS recipients however will have substantial bill has despite getting 75% wages, no tax being deducted