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Constitution needs updating around aftermath of elections
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True. but its also ridiculous that FF/FG having refused to even consider SF as a partner. are dancing round in circles as if there can be another government possible now other than a FF/FG/other government.
Had FF not slammed the door in SF's face a FF/SF coalition might have been possible.
The point here is parties were well aware of the few options available to form a government withing the first week, yet they dance around and expect the electorate to belief that they are working as hard as they can to form a government. They are elected representatives its their job to accept the will of the people not the other way round. If FF and SF are the biggest parties with enough commonality to potentially form a government FF had no right to slam doors. It was the peoples right to decide if SF were suitable for government not FG or FF. The same goes for any other party.
With regards that you might not still form a government if there was another election, i think the Irish electorate are savvy enough to adjust their voting to so that the government could be formed, and vent their anger and refuse to vote for parties with the biggest mandates who refuse to form coalitions if it came to a third election. Political parties are well aware of that, and if they get punished for forcing yet more elections that punishment is totally justified.
TD's are elected by the people to do a job, it's their job to now get on with it.
An employee doesn't tell an employer what work conditions or who they will not work with after accepting a job. If theses TD's don't want the job then they should never have stood.
If their manifesto or previous record wasn't sufficient to garner a majority vote then they only have themselves to blame and that goes for all parties including SF. THey must accept what they offered was not acceptable to the majority of the people and be prepared to comprise so a government can be formed. If there was another election and SF/FF had an outright majority then SF have to accept they will be working with FF, and FF will have to accept they will be working with SF and both will have to find common ground. Instead of slinging mud that energy would be better used finding a way to work together.
Its the new reality that from now on this country's elections will not result in one party having a majority. I dont think that has sunk in with the political parties yet, so
I still think a time limited period for forming government would be a good idea.
An awful lot of assumptions here. Perhaps if you start with the simple premise that what "you believe" does not equal "the will of the people" (whatever that dangerous term means) it might be easier for you to understand why we are where we are.0 -
I agree that the president should be allowed to call an election but as you say at the moment he can only dissolve the Dail 'on the advice of the Taoiseach'.
As it stand at the moment nothing happens unless the existing Taoiseach says so, despite him/her already having formally handing in their resignation.
I suggested eight weeks because if there is no set 'trigger point' it possible that we end up with no elected government for months at at time. Personally I feel eight weeks is sufficient time for for any party to make up its mind and agree a program of government with other parties.
I would be open to the idea of a President having the power able to call another election once eight weeks have passed if they feel its unlikely that a government can be formed. Just because he/she has that power it does not mean they have to use it, but if such a provision was made in the constitution it certainly would speed up the government formation process in the future, or prevent the government formation process being dragged out in the event that it's unlikely a government could be formed.
And what happens if it's a FF or FG president and it suits them to have a repeat election. What would you be saying then? Can you for one minute pause, and think through that many of your suggestions create more problems than they solve... as in "if I change this, what are the unintended consequences". There is no perfect system.0 -
Imo it really is ridiculous having senior ministers who ceased to members of the Oireachtas almost 3 months ago.0
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Sam Russell wrote: »Have they a right of audience in the Dail and/or are they accountable to the Dail?
How can they be held to account if they cannot be interrogated by TDs in the Dail?
Article 28 section 8 "Every member of the Government shall have the right to attend and be heard in each House of the Oireachtas."
The only mechanism the Dail has to "hold to account" is a motion of no confidence. All three proposed last year failed badly.0 -
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And what happens if it's a FF or FG president and it suits them to have a repeat election. What would you be saying then? Can you for one minute pause, and think through that many of your suggestions create more problems than they solve... as in "if I change this, what are the unintended consequences". There is no perfect system.
I have thought it through. Giving the power to the President to enable them to call an election independently after a set period of time it looks likely that no government could be formed does not mean they they twill use that power but its an improvement on what we have now.
Also as I have pointed out many times there is no provision in the constitution for a hung Dail.
As it stands the president cant not do anything unless advised by the Taoiseach. What if the Taoiseach was minded to do nothing despite months going by without a government being formed? Constitutionally there would be no mechanism to remove them.
The current situation is a farce. Its becoming more and more obvious that this coalition has very little chance of success because the smaller parties are showing little or no interest. Yes they are going through the motions, but they have to do that so that they can go into a new elections without being accused of forcing that election. Also its beginning to look as though Michael Martin will not get the support from his party that will be required.
The situation at the moment looks as if we will wait at least another week or two for the smaller parties to actually say YES or NO. Even if there is a YES, there will be weeks of negotiations after that for a program of government to be agreed.
We are looking a a period that could be close to four months before we actually know whether this country will have an elected government or not.
Surely you would agree that this is an excessive amount of time.
Had their been a time limit these talks would have been accelerated and we would not have had to wait nearly eight weeks for FF and FG to actually start doing something.
I would be suggesting a change to the constituting no matter which party was in government, or who was president. The issue isnt who is currently Taoiseach, or who is currently President, it is the simple fact there is no provision for a hung Dail in the Constitution and no government formation should need to take longer than two months under any circumstance.0 -
it is the simple fact there is no provision for a hung Dail in the Constitution and no government formation should need to take longer than two months under any circumstance.
The opposition could elect a new Taoiseach tomorrow and have an election called on the very same day.
The constitution is functioning as intended0 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »The opposition could elect a new Taoiseach tomorrow and have an election called on the very same day.
The constitution is functioning as intended
You know damn well the Opposition could not form a government.
SF tried but did not have the numbers.
FF and FG are trying and they dont have the numbers either.
The obvious coalition from the election results would have been a FF/SF coalition with the support of a few independents or a smaller party. That government would have been up and running in a matter of weeks. Martin torpedoed that idea from the outset.
Suggest to me the make up of the parties and independents that would make up this alternative government you are talking about.0 -
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I have thought it through. Giving the power to the President to enable them to call an election independently after a set period of time it looks likely that no government could be formed does not mean they they twill use that power but its an improvement on what we have now.
Also as I have pointed out many times there is no provision in the constitution for a hung Dail.
As it stands the president cant not do anything unless advised by the Taoiseach. What if the Taoiseach was minded to do nothing despite months going by without a government being formed? Constitutionally there would be no mechanism to remove them.
The constitutional mechanism is very easy. The opposition either form a coalition, bring and win a motion of no confidence or vote down the next money bill.The current situation is a farce.
etc etc etc
Surely you would agree that this is an excessive amount of time.
Had their been a time limit these talks would have been accelerated and we would not have had to wait nearly eight weeks for FF and FG to actually start doing something.
I would be suggesting a change to the constituting no matter which party was in government, or who was president. The issue isnt who is currently Taoiseach, or who is currently President, it is the simple fact there is no provision for a hung Dail in the Constitution and no government formation should need to take longer than two months under any circumstance.
Again, you are making massive assumptions that...
1. an election would solve anything
2. It does not reflect a divided electorate which is actually a democratic position. Sinn Fein/"Left" did not win the election. The election is a divided country but the folk who voted FG and FF and Independent and Green have just as much right to be represented.
3. That it's somehow excessive. I don't think it is because the alternative eventually leads to a UK type system where a winner takes all approach in order to break the impasse. Two months is not an extraordinary amount of time and many other countries that have similar systems and coalition government as usual such as - Belgium, Sweden, Netherlands, have equally long coalition forming timelines.
Frankly is also needs to be said that the Government does not run the country - the civil service does. The Civil Service, statutory agencies, Central Bank and Semi States will continue to run the country and services as they always do.
Government should set policy, so all we have is a policy break. Given the country is divided on what policies the country needs to be run by and we have a short/medium term crisis to deal with I'm happy enough with the current scenario. I certainly don't want to make it worse with a series of elections that don't address the govt. formation challenge.0 -
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You know damn well the Opposition could not form a government.
SF tried but did not have the numbers.
FF and FG are trying and they dont have the numbers either.
The obvious coalition from the election results would have been a FF/SF coalition with the support of a few independents or a smaller party. That government would have been up and running in a matter of weeks. Martin torpedoed that idea from the outset.
Suggest to me the make up of the parties and independents that would make up this alternative government you are talking about.
They don't need to form a government just elect a Taoiseach0 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »They don't need to form a government just elect a Taoiseach
Why would you elected a Taoiseach if you did not intend to form a government?0 -
The constitutional mechanism is very easy. The opposition either form a coalition, bring and win a motion of no confidence or vote down the next money bill.
That is already the position the country is in. We do not have a government that can lose confidence, it is a caretaker government awaiting the election of a new Taoiseach by the TD's in the Dail.
Agreed there is no absolute guarantee that we will not have yet another hung Dail.Again, you are making massive assumptions that...
1. an election would solve anything
But the electorate will recognise that returning a similar vote will result in a similar postion to the one we are currently in. Many will vote differently especially as many would have previously given their vote to FF who promised no coalition with FG, and now there is the perception that its no longer a two horse race between FF and FG.
Totally agree. Who said any party had a divine right to be in government.2. It does not reflect a divided electorate which is actually a democratic position. Sinn Fein/"Left" did not win the election. The election is a divided country but the folk who voted FG and FF and Independent and Green have just as much right to be represented.
Unless a party gets a majority in the Dail they have to consider a coalition.Government should set policy, so all we have is a policy break. Given the country is divided on what policies the country needs to be run by and we have a short/medium term crisis to deal with I'm happy enough with the current scenario. I certainly don't want to make it worse with a series of elections that don't address the govt. formation challenge.
Policy and setting budgets is everything. In the next 12 months decisions are going to have to be made that will affect this country for a good few years to come.
You might be happy with the existing situation, but I would wager most of the electorate is not. Personally I would sooner see a new election and a government formed, be that a government lead by FF, FG or SF. At least having been elected they would have the mandate to make those decisions.0 -
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LeinsterDub wrote: »Because you think the current Taoiseach is dragging their feet on calling an election. Isn't that the entire problem this thread is attempting to solve?
If you think It is just about Leo as far as I am concerned then you are totally wrong. I would be making the same comment no matter who was Taoiseach and which parties appeared to be dragging their heels to form a government.
I do object when it takes 7 weeks for parties to finally decide they might form a coalition, and probably another 7 weeks to find out whether they actually can. No matter which parties they may be.
The simple fact is there is no provision in the constitution for a hung Dail and that should be addressed. It is likely that in future elections this issue will reoccur now that it seems we no longer have just two parties that can lead a government.
If this FF/FG coalition fails, which is becoming more likely, and SF and the left of centre parties were to win enough seats to form a government in a subsequent election I'm sure you would agree that in 5 years time it would make sense to have a clear process in place for a hung Dail and a mechanism where the President could step in after a predetermined period and say hurry it up lads with your government formation or I'm going to call a new one. Whats good for the goose would also be good for the gander.0 -
If you think It is just about Leo as far as I am concerned then you are totally wrong. I would be making the same comment no matter who was Taoiseach and which parties appeared to be dragging their heels to form a government.
I do object when it takes 7 weeks for parties to finally decide they might form a coalition, and probably another 7 weeks to find out whether they actually can. No matter which parties they may be.
The simple fact is there is no provision in the constitution for a hung Dail and that should be addressed. It is likely that in future elections this issue will reoccur now that it seems we no longer have just two parties that can lead a government.
If this FF/FG coalition fails, which is becoming more likely, and SF and the left of centre parties were to win enough seats to form a government in a subsequent election I'm sure you would agree that in 5 years time it would make sense to have a clear process in place for a hung Dail and a mechanism where the President could step in after a predetermined period and say hurry it up lads with your government formation or I'm going to call a new one. Whats good for the goose would also be good for the gander.
I mean 'you' meaning the opposition at the time and 'Taoiseach' meaning whomever the Taoiseach of the day happens to be. The simple fact their is a provision for it as I've stated half a dozen times now.0 -
I have thought it through. Giving the power to the President to enable them to call an election independently after a set period of time it looks likely that no government could be formed does not mean they they twill use that power but its an improvement on what we have now.
Also as I have pointed out many times there is no provision in the constitution for a hung Dail.
As it stands the president cant not do anything unless advised by the Taoiseach. What if the Taoiseach was minded to do nothing despite months going by without a government being formed? Constitutionally there would be no mechanism to remove them.
The current situation is a farce. Its becoming more and more obvious that this coalition has very little chance of success because the smaller parties are showing little or no interest. Yes they are going through the motions, but they have to do that so that they can go into a new elections without being accused of forcing that election. Also its beginning to look as though Michael Martin will not get the support from his party that will be required.
The situation at the moment looks as if we will wait at least another week or two for the smaller parties to actually say YES or NO. Even if there is a YES, there will be weeks of negotiations after that for a program of government to be agreed.
We are looking a a period that could be close to four months before we actually know whether this country will have an elected government or not.
Surely you would agree that this is an excessive amount of time.
Had their been a time limit these talks would have been accelerated and we would not have had to wait nearly eight weeks for FF and FG to actually start doing something.
I would be suggesting a change to the constituting no matter which party was in government, or who was president. The issue isnt who is currently Taoiseach, or who is currently President, it is the simple fact there is no provision for a hung Dail in the Constitution and no government formation should need to take longer than two months under any circumstance.
Belgium had two years I think with a caretaker government.
I think you are despairing at the prospect of FF/FG actually managing to form a government and panicking a bit.0 -
Belgium had two years I think with a caretaker government.
I think you are despairing at the prospect of FF/FG actually managing to form a government and panicking a bit.
I will say it again, so that it is crystal clear. My posts are there because I believe we need to fix an omission in the constitution. There is no provision for a hung Dail. It doesn't matter who is in government, who was in government or who will be in government.
Do you ever actually think or research before you give examples?
Belgium operates under a Federal government. In the mean time local regional governments have been operating as normal so in effect they have had some form of government. What they have not had is any budgets or fiscal control.
Belgium has been without a federal government for nearly two years, In that time there has been no legislation or budgets passed. In the mean time regional governments have been operating to the same budget measures as two years ago. In that time they have increased the country's debt by at least 2% of GDP and possibly more. That will require the next federal government to embark on a relatively large fiscal consolidation exercise.
Belgium's GDP is approx €480 billion so the debt they now have built up is somewhere in the region of €9.5 billion.
Basically their economy will be totally screwed for a few years because they could not get their act together or call another election.
So If you are suggesting that running up large deficit deficits, and not being able to pass legislation or budgets is not a bad thing then think again.
Oh, and next time use an example you know something about or have researched.
If you wanted to give another country as a good example as to why we need to modify our Constitution you just did it.0 -
It's not clear that the modification that you propose would solve the problem, though.I will say it again, so that it is crystal clear. My posts are there because I believe we need to fix an omission in the constitution. There is no provision for a hung Dail. It doesn't matter who is in government, who was in government or who will be in government . . .
Going back to the polls wouldn't necessarily result in a government being formed. It could conceivably make matters worse; the election could return a Dail in which it is even more difficult for any party or group of parties to form a stable majority government. (Israel has just had three successive general elections in an attempt to solve this problem, and hasn't solved it.)
You're proposing that the President should have the power to dissolve the Dail in these circumstances, meaning that it would be up to him to make a judgment call about whether a new election is likely to result in a stable majority for a government. But that means the President becoming involved in precisely the kind of political decisions that, in our system, we generally avoid involving him in. Plus, it's not obvious that the President is better positions to make that judgment than the people could could make it under the current system - the acting Taoiseach, or a majority of TDs.
In short, I don't see that this fixes the problem. A President might be just as reluctant to call a new general election as the acting Taoiseach, and the Dail. And, if any of them does move to a new general election, this is as likely to make the proplem worse as it is to make it better.0 -
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I will say it again, so that it is crystal clear. My posts are there because I believe we need to fix an omission in the constitution. There is no provision for a hung Dail. It doesn't matter who is in government, who was in government or who will be in government.
There is no provision because the Dáil can't be hung. We can't have a tied vote0 -
The Constitution should be getting a full review and update every 10 years +/- to reflect Modern society.0
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Duke of Url wrote: »The Constitution should be getting a full review and update every 10 years +/- to reflect Modern society.
The entire point of the constitution is not to be reactionary barring one or two articles we've a very modern constitution after the last series of reforms0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »It's not clear that the modification that you propose would solve the problem, though.
Going back to the polls wouldn't necessarily result in a government being formed. It could conceivably make matters worse; the election could return a Dail in which it is even more difficult for any party or group of parties to form a stable majority government. (Israel has just had three successive general elections in an attempt to solve this problem, and hasn't solved it.)
You're proposing that the President should have the power to dissolve the Dail in these circumstances, meaning that it would be up to him to make a judgment call about whether a new election is likely to result in a stable majority for a government. But that means the President becoming involved in precisely the kind of political decisions that, in our system, we generally avoid involving him in. Plus, it's not obvious that the President is better positions to make that judgment than the people could could make it under the current system - the acting Taoiseach, or a majority of TDs.
In short, I don't see that this fixes the problem. A President might be just as reluctant to call a new general election as the acting Taoiseach, and the Dail. And, if any of them does move to a new general election, this is as likely to make the problem worse as it is to make it better.
I agree with most of what you have said. There is no absolutely certainty that what I have said will solve every potential scenario , but it is a issue that somehow has to be addressed. It is more likely that in the future that there will be more instance where it appears a government cannot be formed. Anything that would speed up the process, or potentially avoid the existing circumstances should be considered.
There are far better legal, political and constitutional minds in this country than you or I. I not suggesting what I have proposed is the only solution, or that it is even a good solution but I do think the constitution needs to be reviewed and amended to address the situation where it appears no government can be formed. Let them at it and see what they suggest. If they return with the view that modifying the constitution would make matters worse then I would accept that if a full review had taken place.0 -
I agree with most of what you have said. There is no absolutely certainty that what I have said will solve every potential scenario , but it is a issue that somehow has to be addressed. It is more likely that in the future that there will be more instance where it appears a government cannot be formed. Anything that would speed up the process, or potentially avoid the existing circumstances should be considered.
There are far better legal, political and constitutional minds in this country than you or I. I not suggesting what I have proposed is the only solution, or that it is even a good solution but I do think the constitution needs to be reviewed and amended to address the situation where it appears no government can be formed. Let them at it and see what they suggest. If they return with the view that modifying the constitution would make matters worse then I would accept that if a full review had taken place.
Why? If the people have decided to create a hung Dail, that is the people's decision. That is democracy.
If we have parties unable to reach agreement with any other party, as we do at this time, then people have to reflect on that.0 -
Why? If the people have decided to create a hung Dail, that is the people's decision. That is democracy.
If we have parties unable to reach agreement with any other party, as we do at this time, then people have to reflect on that.
Did the people vote for a hung Dail?
I do not believe that was an option on the ballot paper.0 -
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Did the people vote for a hung Dail?
I do not believe that was an option on the ballot paper.
Voting is done by STV. The result of the vote is a number of TDs are elected for each constituency. The Dail assembles and a vote for Taoiseach takes place. It failed to result in anyone being voted in. So we have a caretaker Government who continue to do the day to day stuff.
That is as far as we have got. If the Dail want, they can vote in anyone to be Taoiseach with the sole purpose of calling an election. Not even that has happened. But one or the other will eventually.0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »Voting is done by STV. The result of the vote is a number of TDs are elected for each constituency. The Dail assembles and a vote for Taoiseach takes place. It failed to result in anyone being voted in. So we have a caretaker Government who continue to do the day to day stuff.
That is as far as we have got. If the Dail want, they can vote in anyone to be Taoiseach with the sole purpose of calling an election. Not even that has happened. But one or the other will eventually.
That is a good point. If Sinn Fein and the others don’t want a FF/FG government and want an election instead, they could vote in someone reliable as Taoiseach, say your woman who went on holidays in Kildare, and get her to call an election straight away.0 -
That is a good point. If Sinn Fein and the others don’t want a FF/FG government and want an election instead, they could vote in someone reliable as Taoiseach, say your woman who went on holidays in Kildare, and get her to call an election straight away.
You sure she wasn't on holiday in Belgium?
I'm not convinced that getting virtually every TD that is'nt in FF or FG to vote for a Taoiseach is feasible. Yes it is possible, but feasible and possible are often not the same thing.
WE will know in a few days whether the Greens will bite. I'm not certain they Will. I'm sure Eamonn Ryan would love a go at being minister for the environment, but I'm not sure he will get enough support for his own party for that to happen. It seems the SD's and Labour are going through the motions but have already decided not to play.
At that point Leo is going to either have to do yet another U-turn and call on the independents that he said he did not want to prop up a government or admit he And Micheal Martin cant form a government. That will put Leo on the spot because he will either have to call an election or refuse to do so forcing the Dail to forcibly evict him.0 -
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