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BSQ Beacon South Quarter Issues

  • 26-02-2020 12:26am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 40 circlek


    More of a rant than anything! But this might be useful for anyone considering buying in BSQ. Issued in public interest :)

    I made an offer on an apartment in BSQ in spring last year which was accepted. The banks approved a mortgage in principle based on the management company and estate agent stating that most of the works were underway due to be completed shortly.

    Once a deposit was put down my solicitor identified various discrepancies in the narrative we were sold. The bank refused to lend and the agent stated I can purchase it for cash for the same amount or walk away. As I stood to lose a few thousands by walking away I requested my family for assistance and managed to arrange the cash.

    My happiness was short lived, I got in a surveyor who identified various issues including structural and asked me to take in an engineer too. The vendor’s solicitor wouldn't agree with the surveyors report so requested for an engineer’s report and confirmed they will cover costs if issues were identified (I later realised it was for the report only, and only if I was purchasing.). This took over two months and we finally got the engineers report which confirmed issues. The costs to remediate the issues were a bit lower than 20% of the sales price. We went back to negotiate with the vendors solicitor and they stated that "every second hand apartment in Ireland build during the boom will have such defects and the apartment is sold "as is" and some of the "exterior" works are potentially covered by the fire and water levies charged. Take it or leave it".


    So my option was to buy the apartment for cash and save up a good bit more for future works or walk away after suffering a loss due to solicitor, surveyor and engineers fees (they didn't refund this as I wasn't purchasing the apartment.).

    I recently walked away after months of running around. :(

    I was dejected with the loss (nearly 2.5 month’s salary) but it seems a blessing in disguise! 3 apartments I had seen for sale last year which were sale agreed have come back on the market! :eek: Safe to say I won't be considering a BSQ apartment.

    I wouldn't trust this, looks likes a sponsored piece of news, its been framed really well. You need to understand the development to understand what each figure applies to:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/ires-has-spent-1m-remedying-building-defects-at-sandyford-apartments-1.3984158


    Not that I would recommend it, but if anyone is still interested in an apartment at BSQ, feel free to reach out and I’ll try my best to help. Hopefully my knowledge will help save a few quids for someone else…


    Also, contacting the OMC doesn't help much as they are duty bound to protect the development and do not share information with non-members. They are good to deal with but you will get the normal "your solicitor should..." response. The estate agents usually state "we have been informed by the vendor/vendor's solicitor" and the vendors solicitor will say "your solicitor should request for..."

    Edit: I forgot to add that the estate agent and vendor's solicitor were very eager for me to provide them with the reports I paid for! :D


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 40 circlek


    Got a few PMs requesting for more info. Just compiling some of the info that was requested.

    Might be better for anyone to post here so everyone else is aware too.

    Q. Is the apartment I had surveyed currently on the market?
    A. I wouldn't confirm or deny that as I don't want the vendor to lose a sale. I would suggest being vigilant to issues. Most issues reported in my survey were common to all.

    Q. Any suggestion on which apartment currently on the market is worth pursuing?
    As I stated, I won't be buying one in BSQ as the risk is too big for someone like me, others who have the funds will be in a better position. It's down to risk taking.

    For the apartments currently on the market, I have viewed them "all"! I'm a serial viewer :) All of them had fire safety issues and a majority had water ingress issues. A lot of them have come back to the market for the second/third time.

    FYI - There are a lot more apartments for sale which haven't been advertised. Ask the agent if they have any others "due to come on the market" :D You'll be surprised!

    Q. Are the fire and water issues limited to cubes or the edges too?
    A. Fire is a universal problem. Water is also an issue for a majority. Best do a survey before closing if everything else is fine according to your solicitor. It's not too expensive but will save you in the long run. Forget about an engineer's report, my opinion would be walk away instead.

    Final work of caution, I wouldn't trust what the estate agent states. But if you do trust then also verify!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,960 ✭✭✭ Diarmuid


    circlek wrote: »
    Once a deposit was put down my solicitor identified various discrepancies in the narrative we were sold. The bank refused to lend and the agent stated I can purchase it for cash for the same amount or walk away. As I stood to lose a few thousands by walking away I requested my family for assistance and managed to arrange the cash.

    Fair play to you for putting all this info out there. I did see some very interesting apartments popping up there aver the years but because of the well publicized issues, I didn't even both to view them. I think this most important takeaway from your tale, really is, if there are red flags don't proceed. Raising cash to buy something your solicitor flagged, your band won't lend and with multiple national newspapers reporting issues, is a very bad idea.


  • Registered Users Posts: 38 Klaudia.


    I'm dissapointed and sad after reading. I was hoping to buy there as I would love to stay in the area (currently renting nearby).

    Are those issues 'not fixable'? Or it's just a matter of time they will be all addressed? ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 40 circlek


    Klaudia. wrote: »
    I'm dissapointed and sad after reading. I was hoping to buy there as I would love to stay in the area (currently renting nearby).

    Are those issues 'not fixable'? Or it's just a matter of time they will be all addressed? ...

    Sorry to disappoint you! But better now than you end up with unforseen bills in future.

    They are fixable, it just takes time (guess how long?) and money (guess how much?). So not great value.

    Better off buying an apartment which costs more but doesn't have structural repairs to be done.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭ Purplej


    Hey there, while I appreciate you had a difficult experiences, I bought here some years back with the full understanding that some issues needed to be resolved.
    Negotiated it all into the sales price - and, could not be any happier.

    Please understand that some particular blocks had issues.
    The Edges apartments, for example, have no structural defects at all and in Jan 2019 have been brought up to specs to the highest fire safety standard. All signed off and all work paid for and funded by owners.

    Its a fantastic development and I could not be any happier.

    Again, I am sorry it did not work out for you, but not all apartments and blocks had issues.
    And to just add, those apartments that did have external structural window issues I believe are finally being compensated by insurers

    Oh and lastly, please rather buy a place where you know it’s been through the ringer and issues have been costed (all apartments had their damage costed by Aramark and Engineers), so you know exactly how much it will cost to fix, than a place that is new to market where issues will appear in years to come. Ask any builder in Dublin and they will tell ya to go for 10 year old second had places anytime over the current new builds :) ... the drama continues


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  • Registered Users Posts: 40 circlek


    Purplej wrote: »
    Hey there, while I appreciate you had a difficult experiences, I bought here some years back with the full understanding that some issues needed to be resolved.
    Negotiated it all into the sales price - and, could not be any happier.

    Please understand that some particular blocks had issues.
    The Edges apartments, for example, have no structural defects at all and in Jan 2019 have been brought up to specs to the highest fire safety standard. All signed off and all work paid for and funded by owners.

    Its a fantastic development and I could not be any happier.

    Again, I am sorry it did not work out for you, but not all apartments and blocks had issues.
    And to just add, those apartments that did have external structural window issues I believe are finally being compensated by insurers

    Oh and lastly, please rather buy a place where you know it’s been through the ringer and issues have been costed (all apartments had their damage costed by Aramark and Engineers), so you know exactly how much it will cost to fix, than a place that is new to market where issues will appear in years to come. Ask any builder in Dublin and they will tell ya to go for 10 year old second had places anytime over the current new builds :) ... the drama continues


    I agree with most of what you say. With BSQ it seems to be the luck of the draw. You must be living in the building where fire safety works were completed in Feb 2019, the same cannot be said about the other two having the same name. Only the second structure to be completed after the tower. You could consider youself lucky! You have one of the handful apartments where the work is complete.



    As you say, the location is fantastic thats why I wanted to buy there.


    I'd rather not comment on the issues being compensated by the insurers on a public forum.


    Again, I'm not advising anyone not to buy at BSQ. Just be aware and make sure a complete investigation is conducted by a solicitor and surveyor at least.


  • Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭✭✭ tradingwizz


    circlek wrote: »
    More of a rant than anything! But this might be useful for anyone considering buying in BSQ. Issued in public interest :)

    I made an offer on an apartment in BSQ in spring last year which was accepted. The banks approved a mortgage in principle based on the management company and estate agent stating that most of the works were underway due to be completed shortly.

    Once a deposit was put down my solicitor identified various discrepancies in the narrative we were sold. The bank refused to lend and the agent stated I can purchase it for cash for the same amount or walk away. As I stood to lose a few thousands by walking away I requested my family for assistance and managed to arrange the cash.

    My happiness was short lived, I got in a surveyor who identified various issues including structural and asked me to take in an engineer too. The vendor’s solicitor wouldn't agree with the surveyors report so requested for an engineer’s report and confirmed they will cover costs if issues were identified (I later realised it was for the report only, and only if I was purchasing.). This took over two months and we finally got the engineers report which confirmed issues. The costs to remediate the issues were a bit lower than 20% of the sales price. We went back to negotiate with the vendors solicitor and they stated that "every second hand apartment in Ireland build during the boom will have such defects and the apartment is sold "as is" and some of the "exterior" works are potentially covered by the fire and water levies charged. Take it or leave it".


    So my option was to buy the apartment for cash and save up a good bit more for future works or walk away after suffering a loss due to solicitor, surveyor and engineers fees (they didn't refund this as I wasn't purchasing the apartment.).

    I recently walked away after months of running around. :(

    I was dejected with the loss (nearly 2.5 month’s salary) but it seems a blessing in disguise! 3 apartments I had seen for sale last year which were sale agreed have come back on the market! :eek: Safe to say I won't be considering a BSQ apartment.

    I wouldn't trust this, looks likes a sponsored piece of news, its been framed really well. You need to understand the development to understand what each figure applies to:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/ires-has-spent-1m-remedying-building-defects-at-sandyford-apartments-1.3984158


    Not that I would recommend it, but if anyone is still interested in an apartment at BSQ, feel free to reach out and I’ll try my best to help. Hopefully my knowledge will help save a few quids for someone else…


    Also, contacting the OMC doesn't help much as they are duty bound to protect the development and do not share information with non-members. They are good to deal with but you will get the normal "your solicitor should..." response. The estate agents usually state "we have been informed by the vendor/vendor's solicitor" and the vendors solicitor will say "your solicitor should request for..."

    Edit: I forgot to add that the estate agent and vendor's solicitor were very eager for me to provide them with the reports I paid for! :D


    Hi - In which block of BSQ was this?
    Do you know if this apartment was subsequently sold??


  • Registered Users Posts: 40 circlek


    Hi - In which block of BSQ was this?
    Do you know if this apartment was subsequently sold??
    Not sold. been watching bsq and all but 2 have been on sale for over a year... some since 2018. Some back for third time.
    few sold - mostly by auction, to american investors(not anymore) and one was sold to a company recently for cash. Do your own research. Better to spend on engineers than not knowing the problems and buying a cash pit.

    EDIT: Tradingwizz - Reading your other posts on BSQ it seems you already have all the information you require and are probably well resoruced to purchase. My posts are meant for common folks who may not know about the issues and won't have the funds required for additional work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭ Purplej


    just to add my two cent :)
    If apartments don’t sell, it can be linked to repossession that the bank has no right selling.
    Before I bought at the BSQ, I was kept waiting by KBC to buy one of their repo in Dundrum. Turns out, they never had the proper papers to sell in the first place, yet advertised and arranged viewings, etc.
    Had nothing to do with the apartment itself.
    I know this has been the case for apartments at the beacon too. Places being advertised just to see what the market value is, with no intention of selling - and banks holding on!!!

    Secondly, when I bought here at the BSQ, AIB were very happy to lend because all issues were identified and they had clear costings from engineers.

    circlek, did you get your deposit back and who was the lender?


  • Registered Users Posts: 40 circlek


    Purplej wrote: »
    just to add my two cent :)
    If apartments don’t sell, it can be linked to repossession that the bank has no right selling.

    Point well made! Something I missed but very relevant for any potential buyers. I saw a few repossessed apartments over the years and was aware of the issues and delays. I won't identify any current apartments for sale, but its good to do your research! No electricity is a telltale sign.
    Purplej wrote: »
    Secondly, when I bought here at the BSQ, AIB were very happy to lend because all issues were identified and they had clear costings from engineers.

    Some of The Edges, where you purchased, have a better chance of selling and getting a mortgage as approx. 33% of the apartments already have the work completed. I initially got AIP from BOI. Once that didn't work, J.Morton stated that AIB were lending, as you stated. So got AIP from AIB which was withdrawn once they identified the development and building.
    Purplej wrote: »
    circlek, did you get your deposit back and who was the lender?

    Got deposit back but had to get solicitor involved - lost out on a few thousands. Having said that, the apartment prices have dropped by multiples of what I lost. So in a way, in hindsight I'm glad that didn't work.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭ Purplej


    hi circle,
    Glad to hear you got the deposit back. I can imagine it was hassle though.

    The Irish banking system blows my mind. I actually think it really depends what underwriter you get.
    My mate just got a mortgage last month with AIB (via a broker and their Haven subsidiary) for the Cubes Block here and it was no problem.

    Re repo, I would never ever go near one again! My experience with KBC was telling. I actually felt sorry for the previous owner, I can only imagine the stress they must have been under. Banks advertise and have no intention of selling or don’t have the correct papers. All they want to know what the value is (they don’t even trust their valuers - and neither would I) and then they go into renegotiation with the current owner re write off.

    Re pricing, by all mean, I would recommend for anyone to negotiate hard and price all the work that might need to be done into the sales figure. There are some good bargains to be had.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭ Purplej


    Circle,
    Your post made me review the last comms I have from the board and Aramark, dated 5th Feb 2020.

    90% of fire levy payments are collected and only one block is left to be brought up to spec.

    Water ingress, Premier Guarantee has accepted liability and will pay out on water ingress / structural issue (which only concerns 2 block, all others never had issues).

    Might explain why banks are lending again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭✭✭ dsmy7h


    Sorry for resurrecting this thread but Im looking at an apartment in the Edges 2 and wondering if much has changed since April? The estate agent has advised me the 'fees for the fire safety upgrades have been paid and factored in to the asking price and the works are already underway'. If my bank will approve paying out the mortgage is there anything else I should be wary of here? Would anyone know from experince the current situation on the Edges 2?

    Any insight is really appreciated!


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,769 ✭✭✭ Exclamation Marc


    dsmy7h wrote: »
    Sorry for resurrecting this thread but Im looking at an apartment in the Edges 2 and wondering if much has changed since April? The estate agent has advised me the 'fees for the fire safety upgrades have been paid and factored in to the asking price and the works are already underway'. If my bank will approve paying out the mortgage is there anything else I should be wary of here? Would anyone know from experince the current situation on the Edges 2?

    Any insight is really appreciated!

    That is correct. Work has been carried out on the majority of apartments for fire safety upgrades and they're rounding out the final few (lesser affected) blocks. In tandem with this the majority of charges have been collected also.

    The Edges I believe are in good nick. That said, getting an up to date survey etc is always advisable.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭ salamiii


    most apartment buyers should remember Grenfell in uk they used same material hee in Ireland


    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-54604374


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,769 ✭✭✭ Exclamation Marc


    salamiii wrote: »
    most apartment buyers should remember Grenfell in uk they used same material hee in Ireland


    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-54604374

    BSQ is nothing like Grenfell, that's a ridiculous, enormously misleading and dangerous comparison to make.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,980 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    salamiii wrote: »
    most apartment buyers should remember Grenfell in uk they used same material hee in Ireland


    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-54604374

    Stop link dumping. Final warning


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭✭✭ dsmy7h


    That is correct. Work has been carried out on the majority of apartments for fire safety upgrades and they're rounding out the final few (lesser affected) blocks. In tandem with this the majority of charges have been collected also.

    The Edges I believe are in good nick. That said, getting an up to date survey etc is always advisable.


    Thanks I really appreciate it. That matches up with what Ive heard/ read elsewhere so all things considered it seems like a relatively low risk decision to make an offer. As another poster commented, at least in this case I know everything has been assessed and brought up to standard vs buying somewhere else and finding out there is a host of unknown issues down the line


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭ Purplej


    dsmy7h wrote: »
    Thanks I really appreciate it. That matches up with what Ive heard/ read elsewhere so all things considered it seems like a relatively low risk decision to make an offer. As another poster commented, at least in this case I know everything has been assessed and brought up to standard vs buying somewhere else and finding out there is a host of unknown issues down the line

    Just to confirm all the cladding on the BSQ buildings was tested and given that we have been through the ringer, the BSQ apartments are up to the highest fire safety standards in Ireland.
    From automated fire doors, to alarms in bedrooms, to 24x7 onsite security that responds to fire alarms ... it’s all there.
    I honestly can say, get it at a good price and you will love it here.
    Just to add, it’s all paid for already by current owners. So as a new owner you don’t have to cover the costs the seller does!


  • Registered Users Posts: 7 Board1976


    Hi all, I understand this post is very old. I am a first time buyer, and I am looking for an apartment in Milltown, Saint Annes complex. Is there a way to understand if this complex has received an audit from the fire safety agency? I want to understand if I am exposing myself to any potential future risk.


    Thanks

    MIKE



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  • Registered Users Posts: 766 ✭✭✭ maki


    Bumping this as I have a similar query to the previous poster.

    I recently viewed a property in the Cubes 3, which had come back on the market after previously going sale agreed. The agent said the bank (BOI) refused to lend to the previous potential buyer due to outstanding fire issues in the building.

    However from the replies above it seems that the fire remediation work has been completed? Or are there other issues with these blocks?



  • Registered Users Posts: 872 ✭✭✭ MacronvFrugals


    The Cubes is brutal imo, was visiting my friend who rents there and the noise of the water/shower pump would wake the dead.

    The fire safety issues were remediated but the apartments are all fur and no knickers, the quality looks top notch in photos but under the hood not so much.


    Not surprised at all banks are twitchy about lending tbh



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,769 ✭✭✭ Exclamation Marc


    I believe the fire issues have been resolved alright. Certainly in the more affected blocks.

    As regards the noise of the shower and water pumps, the ones still hanging around from 2007 are quite loud alright but they can be replaced for quieter models. I did a few years ago which sorted it out a year or so before I moved out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭ spaceHopper


    Save yourself a world of pain, run don't walk.


    But if you must bid tell the EA you want to get an engineer to do survey before you bid and see what comes up but be prepared to walk lose the cost of the survey. Or depending on what shows up bid according to double the guideline cost of fixing it.


    On seconds thoughts don't, just run. Would anybody else buy it from you if there are problems you could get stuck with it with no way out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 38 Cristianc


    Does anybody know what is the situation now? I'm looking at some apartments including in Cubes 3.

    Have the issues been fixed?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4 CuriousCase29


    Looking for some insight here about Cubes in BSQ. Have gone sale agreed after a huge bidding war , and now waiting for Title deeds for over 2 months. The EA and seller said all levies are paid off but have not shared any certificates yet.

    While we are still waiting for title deeds, what is preventive thing to do?

    SHould i keep an eye on other properties or wait for this



  • Registered Users Posts: 4 CuriousCase29


    Have you got any more news on this fire and water safety for BSQ



  • Registered Users Posts: 4 CuriousCase29


    Have you got any more news on this fire and water safety for BSQ



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