Garage carried out unauthorised work - what are my rights?

Marloag2020

Hi all, just looking for opinions/facts on what my rights are and the best thing to do in this situation.

Basically my car broke down last week, so I rang my local garage to pick it up and see what was wrong. The NCT is up next week, and it's 2005 with 300k+ millage so wasn't very hopeful. I clearly specified to not carry out any work on the vechile as the NCT runs out next week, but just to identify and price the problem (all over the phone).

Two days later I rang for an update, and was told the onboard computer was broken and that I could either pay 250 for a repair or 700 for a replacement. I asked for the garage to check for any other problems with the car, as obviously it wouldn't be worthwhile paying 250e if it has other problems (2005 Ford focus so a relatively low value regardless).

Fast forward to today when I called in for an update, to be told that they had repaired the onboard computer, and that they were pricing potential repairs for the NCT. I called over immediately to be met with a bill for 380(not 250!!) euro for the repair, which I didn't ask to be carried out.

Just wondering what my rights are in this situation. I know that they couldn't have misunderstood what I said over the phone, the secretary today even had written in her notes to do no work!

The garage are ringing back tomorrow with prices for the other repairs, which are yet to be carried out, but I have no doubt that they won't be worthwhile.

Basically I'm left with a broken car with no NCT, but also a 380 bill for a repair to the computer which I didn't ask to be repaired!

Note my issue here is on the garage carrying out the works without my say so.

Any advice or help much appreciated. Thanks.

thebandit2020

Check to see it they are members of SIMILAR

https://www.simi.ie/en/find-a-member

If they are, you can make a complaint

https://www.simi.ie/en/consumer-help/complaints-service

Dav010

If the onboard computer was broken and the car would not drive, as a matter of interest, how did you expect to take the car away from the garage if the computer/car wasn’t working, or did you think you could just leave it there and forget about it? I would assume the €380 included labour and VAT.

antix80

Dav010 wrote: »

If the onboard computer was broken and the car would not drive, as a matter of interest, how did you expect to take the car away from the garage if the computer/car wasn’t working, or did you think you could just leave it there and forget about it?

Hardly relevant tbh

Labour and Vat should be included in the quote.. Illegal to quote private users the ex vat price

Bricriu

thebandit2020 wrote: »

Check to see it they are members of SIMILAR

https://www.simi.ie/en/find-a-member

If they are, you can make a complaint

https://www.simi.ie/en/consumer-help/complaints-service

Don't even bother with these SIMI scum - they are useless. They are there to protect the garage industry, and to create a false image of helping the customer.
Like all the Ombudsmans, etc., they are a pretence by the Government of giving the consumer rights.
If you don't believe me, try getting a case resolved sometime.

Peregrinus

If you instructed the garage not to carry out any work without your agreement, and if you never agreed, then you don't have to pay for the work they did. They fact that they charge they want to make exceeds the estimage by so much is irrelevant if your position is that you don't have to pay anything at all, so don't get hung up on that detaial.

True, your left with a broken car with no NCT, but that's the position you would have been in had the garage followed your instructions, so it's no something that results from the garage's error. You're still faced with the problem of how to remove the car from the garage (which they are entitled to ask you to do) and presumably you are going to have to pay the garage for collecting your car last week and towing it to the garage (unless you have already paid for that).

Basically, I think your principal problems here were not caused by the garage carrying out unauthorised work, and resolving your dispute with the garage on the most favourable possible terms (they don't ask you to pay for the work they did on the computer) is not going to help very much.

listermint

Is the diagnosis included in the cost or did you expect them to look over the car for faults for free.

It doesn't really say if your expected to pay anything at all


.


.

Peregrinus

listermint wrote: »

Is the diagnosis included in the cost or did you expect them to look over the car for faults for free.

It doesn't really say if your expected to pay anything at all.

It's pretty routine for tradesmen to scope out a job and give an estimate, and not be paid if the estimate is not accepted.

In this case I'd expect the garage to charge for collecting the car and towing/carrying it to the garage (assuming they are the ones who provided this service), not to charge for the work involved in giving an estimate, and to write off any charge for the work done once they accept that they were instructed not to do it and only did it by mistake.

listermint

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's pretty routine for tradesmen to scope out a job and give an estimate, and not be paid if the estimate is not accepted.

In this case I'd expect the garage to charge for collecting the car and towing/carrying it to the garage (assuming they are the ones who provided this service), not to charge for the work involved in giving an estimate, and to to write off any charge for the work done once they accept that they were instructed not to do it, and only did it by mistake.

It's not clear if they said don't fix the ECU or ok ecu grand can you find out if there's anything else.


Also diagnosis is not free and no any garage won't write off hours spent fault finding. There's a cost to that and the op can't get off free.

Dav010

Peregrinus wrote: »

If you instructed the garage not to carry out any work without your agreement, and if you never agreed, then you don't have to pay for the work they did. They fact that they charge they want to make exceeds the estimage by so much is irrelevant if your position is that you don't have to pay anything at all, so don't get hung up on that detaial.

True, your left with a broken car with no NCT, but that's the position you would have been in had the garage followed your instructions, so it's no something that results from the garage's error. You're still faced with the problem of how to remove the car from the garage (which they are entitled to ask you to do) and presumably you are going to have to pay the garage for collecting your car last week and towing it to the garage (unless you have already paid for that).

Basically, I think your principal problems here were not caused by the garage carrying out unauthorised work, and resolving your dispute with the garage on the most favourable possible terms (they don't ask you to pay for the work they did on the computer) is not going to help very much.

I don’t know about yours, but any garage that has fixed/serviced any car I’ve had give the ex vat quote for parts, the labour cost depends on how long it takes to do it and the VAT is then added at the end. Hence the quote for the computer repair would be ex labour and VAT.

Peregrinus

Dav010 wrote: »

I don’t know about yours, but any garage that has fixed/serviced any car I’ve had give the ex vat quote for parts, the labour cost depends on how long it takes to do it and the VAT is then added at the end. Hence the quote for the computer repair would be ex labour and VAT.

This may be true, but it's unimportant here. The issue here is not exactly how much the OP has to pay, but whether he has to pay anything at all. If he doesn't have to pay for work which he didn't ask for and in fact instructed that he did not want done, the amount the garage wants to charge for the work is neither here nor there. Therefore, the OP should not allow himself to be sidetracked into a discussion about what the "right" price for this work is.

listermint

Peregrinus wrote: »

This may be true, but it's unimportant here. The issue here is not exactly how much the OP has to pay, but whether he has to pay anything at all. If he doesn't have to pay for work which he didn't ask for and in fact instructed that he did not want done, the amount the garage wants to charge for the work is neither here nor there. Therefore, the OP should not allow himself to be sidetracked into a discussion about what the "right" price for this work is.

I still can't believe you think hours of diagnostic is free.

Who is this garage you go to we can all bring our cars sounds excellent.

Dav010

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's pretty routine for tradesmen to scope out a job and give an estimate, and not be paid if the estimate is not accepted.

In this case I'd expect the garage to charge for collecting the car and towing/carrying it to the garage (assuming they are the ones who provided this service), not to charge for the work involved in giving an estimate, and to write off any charge for the work done once they accept that they were instructed not to do it and only did it by mistake.

Tradesmen, yes, but unlike a tradesman, garages tend to have ancillary staff, property costs and those diagnostics computers they use are extremely expensive, so they are not obliged, nor should it be presumed, that their time has no value.

Dav010

listermint wrote: »

I still can't believe you think hours of diagnostic is free.

Who is this garage you go to we can all bring our cars sounds excellent.

Solicitors are well known for offering advice and services free of charge. ðŸ˜

This is it

listermint wrote: »

I still can't believe you think hours of diagnostic is free.

Who is this garage you go to we can all bring our cars sounds excellent.

We need the full breakdown of costs. Obviously a tow and diagnostics wouldn't be free but if the OP specified that repairs were not to be done, it's only the tow and diagnostics they should be paying for.

Peregrinus

Dav010 wrote: »

Solicitors are well known for offering advice and services free of charge. ðŸ˜

But solicitors absolutely do analyse a legal issue and offer an estimate for the cost of resolving it, free of charge. This is common. If the prospective client doesn't like what he hears, he goes away and pays nothing.

Likewise with garages. Yes, it costs money to provide an estimate, but it's a cost that you have to bear to develop your business and promote customer loyalty. The great majority of motor repair estimates do turn into work orders, so the burden of providing estimates that go nowhere is a manageable one.

Sleeper12

Peregrinus wrote:

It's pretty routine for tradesmen to scope out a job and give an estimate, and not be paid if the estimate is not accepted.

Did you ask if this was the case before you asked them to check out the car?

I can't say about Ford but I had a jeep Cheroke before and the dealers charged for the diagnosis. People would use regular mechanic but only the main dealer had the diagnostic software so people would bring their jeeps in, pay to find out what was wrong and then get their own mechanic to do repairs.

I wonder if they had to repair the computer before they could find out what else needed to be done?

FishOnABike

Was the computer problem with the instrument cluster? If so it's common enough on the Mk2 focus. Search for "Mk2 focus instrument cluster" online and you'll see it's a recognised problem.

Peregrinus

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Did you ask if this was the case before you asked them to check out the car?

Not my car. But, FWIW, if they were going to make a charge for estimating the cost of repairs, I'd expect them to make that clear before they estimated the cost of repairs.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I can't say about Ford but I had a jeep Cheroke before and the dealers charged for the diagnosis. People would use regular mechanic but only the main dealer had the diagnostic software so people would bring their jeeps in, pay to find out what was wrong and then get their own mechanic to do repairs.

I wonder if they had to repair the computer before they could find out what else needed to be done?

This may be where the error arose, since according to the OP it was only after he "asked for the garage to check for any other problems with the car" that they went ahead and repaired the onboard computer. So maybe someone thought that he understood that checking for other problems would require the computer to be repaired, and this was an implicit instruction to go ahead and repair the computer.

If so, the garage is on weak grounds because, again according to the OP, he explicitly told them not to do any work, and the garage's own notes confirm this. So possibly there's a breakdown in communications between whoever the OP spoke to on the phone and whoever actually does repair works on vehicles. If so, the OP is not responsible for that breakdown.

Dav010

Peregrinus wrote: »

But solicitors absolutely do analyse a legal issue and offer an estimate for the cost of resolving it, free of charge. This is common. If the prospective client doesn't like what he hears, he goes away and pays nothing.

Likewise with garages. Yes, it costs money to provide an estimate, but it's a cost that you have to bear to develop your business and promote customer loyalty. The great majority of motor repair estimates do turn into work orders, so the burden of providing estimates that go nowhere is a manageable one.

No it isn’t a cost have to bear. It costs time and money to analyse a problem, if you do not charge for it, that is your prorogative, but your need to do this should not automatically apply to others. The mechanic analysed the problem taking time and using expensive equipment, then advised the op what needed to be done. Solicitors don’t charge for legal advice based on analysing legal problems? Does that apply to all solicitors?

Seems daft to be questioning that fee to be fair. For an ECU fault which caused the car to break down, that’s very reasonable. If it has the car driving again, it can be put in for the NCT and then the OP will know what it needs to pass, assuming it fails. The unrealistic expectations of some people is crazy. “Speculate your time and capital investment in premises, training and diagnostic equipment to tell me what’s wrong with my car, but don’t rectify what’s caused it to break down and leave me stranded”. Why waste their time or your own if you expect to tie their hands like that?

As for people expecting them to inspect a 15 year old high mileage car without having to at least get it running? Get real.

GreeBo

I don't understand the confusion.
The op was charged for repairs, not investigation.
They didn't sanction any repairs.

This is it

JayZeus wrote: »

Seems daft to be questioning that fee to be fair. For an ECU fault which caused the car to break down, that’s very reasonable. If it has the car driving again, it can be put in for the NCT and then the OP will know what it needs to pass, assuming it fails. The unrealistic expectations of some people is crazy. “Speculate your time and capital investment in premises, training and diagnostic equipment to tell me what’s wrong with my car, but don’t rectify what’s caused it to break down and leave me stranded”. Why waste their time or your own if you expect to tie their hands like that?

As for people expecting them to inspect a 15 year old high mileage car without having to at least get it running? Get real.

A garage shouldn't presume anything. They were asked to diagnose the issue not repair it. In 15 years of driving I've never had a garage repair an issue without first confirming with me that I wanted the work done and the appropriate price for the repair.

Sleeper12

Peregrinus wrote: »

Not my car. But, FWIW, if they were going to make a charge for estimating the cost of repairs, I'd expect them to make that clear before they estimated the cost of repairs.


This may be where the error arose, since according to the OP it was only after he "asked for the garage to check for any other problems with the car" that they went ahead and repaired the onboard computer. So maybe someone thought that he understood that checking for other problems would require the computer to be repaired, and this was an implicit instruction to go ahead and repair the computer.

If so, the garage is on weak grounds because, again according to the OP, he explicitly told them not to do any work, and the garage's own notes confirm this. So possibly there's a breakdown in communications between whoever the OP spoke to on the phone and whoever actually does repair works on vehicles. If so, the OP is not responsible for that breakdown.

They are still fully entitled to charge for the diagnostics on the car car though. Both labour & VAT. It should never be assumed that tradesmen will work for free

Peregrinus

Dav010 wrote: »

No it isn’t a cost have to bear. It costs time and money to analyse a problem, if you do not charge for it, that is your prorogative, but your need to do this should not automatically apply to others. The mechanic analysed the problem taking time and using expensive equipment, then advised the op what needed to be done. Solicitors don’t charge for legal advice based on analysing legal problems? Does that apply to all solicitors?

They don't give you legal advice for free (mostly; some will give basic advice for free); they analyse the problem, and then outline for you what steps can be taken to resolve the problem and what they might cost. If you don't like what you hear, you go away and they write off the time spent analysing the problem and talking to you about it.

Sleeper12

Marloag2020 wrote: »

Two days later I rang for an update, and was told the onboard computer was broken and that I could either pay 250 for a repair or 700 for a replacement. I asked for the garage to check for any other problems with the car, as obviously it wouldn't be worthwhile paying 250e if it has other problems (2005 Ford focus so a relatively low value regardless).

Fast forward to today when I called in for an update, to be told that they had repaired the onboard computer, and that they were pricing potential repairs for the NCT. I called over immediately to be met with a bill for 380(not 250!!) euro for the repair, which I didn't ask to be carried out.

I don't know a lot about engines & when I started driving an on board computer was something I'd only ever heard on Star Trec. The original as there was only one Star Trec at the time. Anyway my question is, are you sure they didn't even hint that they couldn't run a diagnostics without first repairing the computer? What I'm getting at is could there have been some confusion about the computer? I'm not a petrol head & I'm not saying you are in the wrong. I just don't see how they could have agreed to run diagnostics without a functioning computer.

Peregrinus

Peregrinus wrote: »

They don't give you legal advice for free (mostly; some will give basic advice for free); they analyse the problem, and then outline for you what steps can be taken to resolve the problem and what they might cost. If you don't like what you hear, you go away and they write off the time spent analysing the problem and talking to you about it.

That's fine for them. Why does it mean that a garage should follow the same model?
They'd have every old banger that hadn't run in years brought in to have a look at.

The OP asked them 'to identify and price' the problem. Identifying has value/cost, requires skill, time, equipment, and is time that can't be used for something else.

Edit: How fungible? is that advice- you can go to another mechanic and say x,y,z, is wrong and can you fix it. Would another solicitor take your free advice and knock some of the price off as someone else had already done the analysis?
I doubt it.

runawaybishop

Some mechanics don't charge for diagnostics, mine doesn't.

This is irrelevant though, the op clearly states he was charged for repairs, not diagnostics.

Sleeper12

Deleted User wrote:

Edit: How fungible? is that advice- you can go to another mechanic and say x,y,z, is wrong and can you fix it. Would another solicitor take your free advice and knock some of the price off as someone else had already done the analysis? I doubt it.

Peats of Parnell Street went out of business for this very reason. People went in and got advice you couldn't get anywhere else in Dublin then they went home and sourced everything from the Internet cheaper.

As a tradesman I think posters are a little confused on the way that we charge. A plumber might go out and quote for a whole new bathroom free of charge BUT call someone out to "look at the boiler it's a different matter. He gives a price for repair or replace but if you decide to do neither then you will usually get hit with a 75 euro call out fee. I'm in shower repair. I don't go out to" look". I go out to repair or replace. If they decide not to go ahead after I have "looked" then they will pay 75 euros for my time, equipment and expertise

Sleeper12

runawaybishop wrote:

Some mechanics don't charge for diagnostics, mine doesn't.

A mechanic up a lane way might not but all main dealers will charge you for this in my experience

listermint

GreeBo wrote: »

I don't understand the confusion.
The op was charged for repairs, not investigation.
They didn't sanction any repairs.

It doesn't say they didn't sanction any repairs after the ECU was found to be bad and given a price.it says they asked if there was anything else wrong.


To be clear