Last of the Summer Wine

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118865205#Comment_118865205

Thank you kindly.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881385#Comment_118881385

Thanks - if only one could guarantee the other.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881460#Comment_118881460

Cheers - yes, it means little and there are no prizes but I find it motivational to pay at least some little attention to the category results.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118881938#Comment_118881938

The downhills are definitely some of the steepest I've come across in a race. In terms of the hills, I mean it's not The Stook, but it's not Charleville either. Soinia head-to-head would have been special alright.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118882386#Comment_118882386

Strength is a good word - that's what it feels like really the last few races, a sense of solidity that's probably coming from that extra attention to aerobic conditioning. Excellent stuff yourself in Berlin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118882488#Comment_118882488

Thanks D. Have you done this one? Not too far away.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118882511#Comment_118882511

Ha. Now where have I heard that before?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118882885#Comment_118882885

Very good point about taking the pressure off. And yeah, definitely a notional target. (Notions? Moi?)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118885036#Comment_118885036

True - weather plus olympians (at least three?) equals deadly buzz for sure! Very high placing from Aoife Kilgallon too, breaking course record.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886033#Comment_118886033

What a lovely story that is, it says a lot about SOS. Hopefully you'll get another opportunity to race her. 😉

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889933#Comment_118889933

Thanks E - how are things for you post-HM?

Murph_D

Week of 4 Apr

The quads were very sore after Sunday’s race - I’ve felt fewer after effects after some marathons, genuinely. So nothing too dramatic this week, or the first part of it anyway.

Mon 4 Apr

30 mins recovery

Didn’t feel up for this really but felt it was important to get the blood flowing through the legs a bit. Very creaky trot around Marino and All Hallows.  

Tue 5 Apr

Rest.

Wed 6 Apr

75 mins easy

The DOMS (or maybe IOMS?) was a little better today, so headed out in the rain after work up the Malahide Road and across to St. Annes’s. Came across MC and we both commented on quad soreness as we passed in the park. Last part of this run was straight into a very strong headwind along the coast towards town. Never the most enjoyable way to end a run - froze the brass monkeys off me. 🐵😱

• This week: 18k (13m)
• This month: 46 (202)
• This year: 973 (570)

DeepBlue

DeepBlue said the hills aren’t that bad, but any kind of hill knocks the stuffing out of me.

I have, ahem, revised my opinion since Sunday. 😯 I'd forgotten that back in 2019 I'd been doing easy runs on hills of a similar gradient, albeit shorter, and that helped a lot. Kudos on racing this for a PB. I found the second, flatter, half of the race a lot tougher than the first. You've probably done the Cork City 10 Miler in August before. It's a lot flatter and more "Potential PB" friendly although it would probably clash with more races closer to home and probably DCM training if you're doing that.

Murph_D

Week of 4 April cont.

Thurs 7 Apr

46 mins very easy around Marino.

Fri 8 Apr

73 mins easy

Headed out from work along Merrion Strand and back through Ballsbridge. No watch. Plan was to turn after 30 mins but there are no clocks anywhere in Sandymount or Booterstown. On the Northside I’d get the time from the bus stop RTA displays signs but surprisingly they seem to have far fewer of these on the southside, or this part of it anyway, so ended up going a bit longer than planned.

Sat 9 Apr

‘Long run’ 104 mins - broken into two halves, up to and back from the park, Took a break in between to watch a few clubmates doing the Great Ireland Run. Pretty small race compared to the last time I watched this a good few years ago.

Sun 10 Apr

13.8K inc Club Championships mile (5:59-ish)

Every year the club puts on an afternoon of track racing in Morton Stadium for anyone interested, from kids to grandparents. Plenty of kids around but not too many seniors and even fewer masters. I’d never participated in this event before today but thought it would be interesting to run the mile. Warmed up with a few laps of the stadium and the adjacent Demesne, then lined up with seven or eight others - a few juniors, a few seniors and a couple of veterans. Didn’t know most of them so had no idea what to expect. Lining us up, our club captain and Olympian DH reminded us that five men had broken four minutes on this track in 1958’s ‘Miracle Mile’. We looked nervously at each other, wondering how great DH's expectations actually were for this little race. The whistle goes and I found myself in sixth place after 100m, with a couple of young lads well in front already. Went around a kid and a young woman on the back straight and settled in behind a teenage girl in a pink shirt for fourth. Plucky little runner, she sensed my presence and moved out slightly to discourage me. Settled in with her for the remainder of the lap, then made a move and pulled in front in lap two. Feeling every stride in my wafer thin track spikes, so my form was probably a bit clunky, but feeling strong enough at this stage. No clock on the track and no one was calling lap splits so had no idea how we were doing pace wise. Pink girl didn’t want to be dropped and stayed on my shoulder for a while, although I think I pulled away a bit to look good enough for third at the half way point. Thought I was driving through lap three reasonably well but with 600m to go Pink comes past hard and stays there. Should have used my elbows more. 😉 Thought she might suffer in lap four but on the bell she pulled further ahead and I had to settle for fourth in a lonely final lap with no one pushing from behind. The timer told me 5:59, which was a bit disappointing. Then again conditions were blustery enough and it was more of a positional race (for three laps anyway). Enjoyed it!

Forty minute cooldown in the park afterwards, then returned to find the car park gate locked. Had to do some cross country driving to escape (apologies to any Clonliffe Harriers reading - I assure ye I did not drive on the track.)

• This week: 71k (44m) - 412 mins
• This month: 99 (62)
• This year: 1026 (638)

Swashbuckler

I've always admired you taking on all the distances...not many milers/ten milers/half marathoners/marathoners about these days. A distinct lack of 10k though.....

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908644#Comment_118908644

It's not out of any deliberate strategy but you're right, it's probably the distance I've raced the least. Don't think I've deliberately shunned - but haven't gone out of my way either. 10k is such a painfest, almost as bad as the 5k. That might be it. I do have an entry in this summer's Race Series 10k however, although I might get another chance before July. The BHAA K-Club 10k doesn't seem to be on anymore, that was always a popular one (although have only done once).

You're right, I should do more of them.

Swashbuckler

Ah to be fair the only reason I said it is coz I'm a huge fan of the distance. Tongue in cheek more than anything. I've always thought the 10k training bridges the gap from shorter to longer stuff.

Now none of that might apply to Lydiard principles. DD has me swayed. Bought two lydiard books last week. One of which looks like a fantastic read. Could be my next phase.

Murph_D

Which one did you buy?

Swashbuckler

20220411_003124.jpg

Murph_D

👍 I have the one on the left and have dipped into the other one. I find all the Lydiard books I’ve seen so far (including the ghost-written originals) fascinating but a little frustrating. That’s where DD comes in, interpreting and boiling down, turning it all into a more coherent ‘plan’ for regular club runner types. 😁

Murph_D

Week of 11 Apr

Will be in Donegal most of this week - the hills are calling.

Mon 11 Apr

45m recovery.

Morning jog along the seafront. The Clontarf to City Centre cycleway/QBC is under construction and some motorists are up in arms, but the traffic was moving freely this morning.

Tue 12 Apr

110m with 90 @ sub-T.

Big run in the local hills, looping around by St. John’s Point. Rainy evening but nice mild conditions. Felt it could go on forever - you know the feeling, and how rare it is. But 90 mins is a long workout. Found myself losing concentration a couple of times and had to shake myself back onto the pace. This is something I’ve noticed before towards the end of these sub-tempo runs. Don’t know what it is - something about the steady pace: not easy, but not too hard either. It can lull you to sleep, so to speak. Anyway, jabbed myself back awake and finished well.

Wed 13 Apr

55 mins recovery around the local loop, counting the new lambs. Fairly tired run, can't say I enjoy these too much, but it was a lovely evening at least.

• This week: 37k (23m)
• This month: 137 (85)
• This year: 1,064 (661)

Murph_D

Week of 11 April cont.

Thurs 14 Apr

51 mins easy on the local roads. 

Fri 15 Apr

40 mins easy around the Killybegs harbour.

Sat 16 Apr

A trip up to Derry from Donegal for the parkrun. Stayed the night before but didn’t sleep much - up early to get in a couple of laps of the Walls before breakfast, then back to the B&B, quick feed then jog to the Marina for the start. Nice buzz for this parkrun - friendly and a nice course that takes you over the Peace Bridge and a loop of a park on the far side before retracing back to the Marina. Did this one at a fair T pace to finish 16th in 21:40 or so. Another loop of the course to cool down. Total for the morning: 17:45 kms / 94 mins

Sun 17 Apr

Well, covid has been closing in on us for some time - one of the young lads is just over it and both the mrs and myself are down with it today. Which means I’ll have to forget about next week’s Raheny Open Mile and the National Road Relays, which I’d been hoping to get on a club team for. Oh well - it was a good run when it lasted.

• This week: 71k (44m) - 392 mins
• This month: 170 (106)
• This year: 1097 (682)

DeepBlue

Bad luck. Hopefully it's just a mild version you have. It does seem to be coming for us all 😷

Dubh Geannain

Hopefully it's not a bad dose for you Murph.

Late catching up here. Nice to see the couple of great mile efforts. I might try that Jimmy McGuinness mantra myself sometime. Congrats on Cobh and a fantastic report too.

Swashbuckler

All the best D. Hope it's not a bad dose.

Laineyfrecks

Hopefully it's only a mild dose D, take care🤗

AuldManKing

Catching up here - what a terrific set of performances!! Top man.

Hope the dose isn't too bad.

MisterJinx

Hopefully not a bad dose, I was back going again after about 10 days but had to take it very easy on the first few runs and thanks for the tips on Lanz, the Montana Rojo was a great route :-)

diego_b

Sorry to hear that D, hopefully it passes quickly and you recover soon.

Wubble Wubble

Best of luck with recovery D, hopefully no lasting impact as you've been running really well lately.

ariana`

Bad luck. Wishing you a speedy recovery D.

Murph_D

Not much has been happening. A little covid break to reset the mechanism. 

18-24 Apr

No running. isolation for most of the week. Very mild symptoms - just a sore throat really, for a couple of days, and not a particularly bad one. It was disappointing to miss this week’s National Road Relays - I reckon I’d have made the club’s M50 B team anyway, and at my age you never know when you’ve had your final chance. I did have the consolation of winning the Division 3 title in the club’s Winter League, despite having to miss the final 1-mile race during the week. But in reality I should have been in Div 2 so it's nothing to shout about!

25-29 Apr

Still testing positive most of this week. Symptoms long gone and while the guidance suggests you’re OK to come out after 7 days if symptom free, I played it safer and avoided a couple of things I was supposed to do, just to be on the safe side. 

Sat 30 Apr

Finally tested negative. Back up in Donegal, clocked up parkrun #174 in Dungloe. It felt good to be running again, despite the fairly miserable conditions. No immediate after effects. Low mileage this month obviously: 175 kms (109 mi).

Sun 1 May

66 mins easy on the local loop. A beautiful afternoon after yesterday’s rain.HR slightly elevated compared to normal but felt reasonably OK for an easy run in the hills. A few more easy days, I reckon, before trying a hill session towards the end of next week if all is well.

Well done to today’s marathoners - Limerick, Cincinnati and beyond. 

• This week: 17k (10m)
• This month: 11 (7)
• This year: 1,114 (692)

Murph_D

Week of 2 May

Getting back into it. Like many others in the same post-covid boat, I’ve felt the easy runs to be quite challenging. It felt like a long week, especially with all that waiting for swashbuckler’s race report. 😉 Got a bit of a fright on Saturday, ‘wrenching’ my back while filling the dishwasher (it's the slightly forward tilt that is risky for aggravating my historic herniated disc). This is always worrying for me, and hopefully it was just a mild tweak. 

Mon 2 May

Rest. Drove back from Donegal and that always leaves me stiff and sore, so enough for the day.

Tue 3 May

50 mins recovery pace out to the Bull Wall. Legs still tired after the weekend’s ‘long’ run, and effort levels a bit high for the gentle pace. An easy run, but everything felt very clunky. Kept a close eye on the HR and just ground it out. 

Wed 4 May

Easy hour around the perimeter of St. Anne’s park and out the causeway. Another warm evening, still feeling sluggish.

Thu 5 May

Another rest day. Caught up on Ozark and Better Call Saul instead. (They've both jumped the shark. I'm also enjoying a series called The Wilds on Amazon Prime, which is pretty fresh).

Fri 6 May

An hour around Dublin 2’s parks (College/Merrion/Stephen’s/Iveagh) in the rain. Soaked but fun.

Sat 7 May

Yet Another rest day. Tweaked my back as mentioned above. You can never be sure, but it feels like muscle so hopefully not the dodgy disc. Every time I do this I worry I may never run again, so I took the day off. 

Sun 8 May

100 mins MLR on the seafront. Lovely day out, and as usual on this route I had a clubmate or two to wave at. Back behaved itself which is a relief. HR still too hight for the easy pace, so obviously not fully recuperated. 

• This week: 47k (29m)
• This month: 58 (36)
• This year: 1,160 (721)

 

Annie get your Run

I'm actually enjoying the last few episodes of Ozark, we call it Sodark in our house 😀. The Anatomy of a Scandal is going down very well too.

Hopefully you'll have no lasting effects from Covid - were you planning to race on 5th June?

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032713#Comment_119032713

I am still enjoying Ozark but like every series it eventually paints itself into a corner, so just not enjoying as much as previously. And yes, it's very dark, literally as well as metaphorically! I'll check out Anatomy.

I was planning on racing the Cork half, yes. We'll see how it goes. Just signed up today actually. 65 quid - yikes!

Murph_D

Week of 9 May

Hoping to get at least one session in this week - feels like the fitness is waning. Doubt if I'll be setting Cork on fire in a few weeks.

Mon 9 May

67 mins easy, out to St. Anne’s via the Howth Road and back along the coast. Windy, and it would have been more comfortable in the opposite direction. But then again wind exposure is a good thing. Character building! 

Tue 10 May

29 mins easy - squeezed this in just before heading to Cavan for a wedding. 

Wed 11 May

On to Donegal for a couple of nights - 66 mins around the local roads. HR high - not surprising after yesterday’s festivities.

Thu 12 May

60 mins with 40 @ steady. The weather was dire but I headed out around the local loop for a steady run - the neighbours were impressed. Would have been better to have gotten a longer one in but it was getting late, and I was feeling it anyway - good enough to have anything at all in the bag.

Fri 13 May

68 mins recovery. Out on the St. Anne’s loop again after the drive home. HR did not want to stay in the recovery zone, still 5-7 beats higher than I’d like.

Sat 14 May

45 mins including 5k at about marathon pace. Headed over to Brickfield(s) Park in Kimmage to chalk another Dublin parkrun off the list. I’d attempted to run this one a few months ago but it was rained off on the day. Better luck this time. Bumped into a couple of acquaintances including former boardsie raycun. It’s a four lapper, and I settled into marathon pace with a brief stop to tie a shoelace (a recurring problem with my zoom flys - must pay more attention). Again, the effort felt harder than it should, but I enjoyed this as always. Chatted to R and D and the run director afterwards, all very pleasant. A couple more laps to cool down. That’s 175 parkruns under the belt, in 34 locations, 29 of them in RoI, 18 in Dublin. Only Marlay, Shanganagh, Sport Ireland, Ardgillan and Griffeen to go!

Sun 15 May

120 mins easy in the Phoenix Park, starting early to get well underway before the National 5k event. Drove out with C but we went our separate ways as he had a bigger and faster run on the schedule. Covered most roads in the park, slowly working off last night's few pints of porter. Challenging 5k course with the Glen hills in play. Waved at AMK just as I was finishing. Good breakfast afterwards in the visitors centre. This was a decent run and the HR played ball, so good to see some definite improvements this week, and a return to decent mileage. 

• This week: 80k (50m) - 456 mins
• This month: 138 (86)
• This year: 1,241 (771)

Murph_D

Week of 16 May

Right! Back to business this week. Back to the Lydiard-type sessions, with an eight-week block that adds some hills to the mix. Looking forward to a bit more variety actually...

Mon 16 May

67 mins easy, with strides.

The schedule said 6 x 10 secs, but I hadn’t read it closely enough and did 6 x 30s, which is quite long for stride. Out along the Clontarf coast which was even more full of clubmates than usual.

Tue 17 May

75 mins total including 2 x 20 mins steady, 6 x 10s hills.

This looked meaty enough after the last four or five weeks of nothing/easy stuff, although I'd chanced a short steady run last week. Strapped on the HRM and kept a close on it, trying to stay in the 161-168 range with is my 75-80% HRR range. First 20 mins went smoothly enough, around marathon pace out the coast than 3 mins recovery to take me to the bottom of the popular hill at the corner of St. Anne’s Park. It’s not a particularly challenging hill but good for this kind of gentle introduction. Did these at a decent clip with an exaggerated ‘bounce’ (or tried to anyway), sharing the hill with another aul lad who ambled along for a few laps. The second steady section back towards home was into the wind and a bit less comfortable than the first, but kept the HR in the right place all the way. Good one.   

Wed 18 May

40 mins recovery around Marino. Glad nothing more than a plod was required today.

• This week: 32k (52m)
• This month: 170 (106)
• This year: 1,273 (791)

Swashbuckler

Let the questions begin 😄

I promise not to plague you but I'm really interested as I have been reading up a lot on Lydiard lately.

1. Are you planning on doing the Full Lydiard methodology start to finish or is there a mix of philosophies? I see you went through a mostly aerobic phase (phase 1) and now onto more hills (phase 2).

2. How did you find that phase 1? Did you feel like you lost anything by doing very little anaerobic stuff? I can't recall, maybe I'm wrong and you actually did. That would be one concern is spending several weeks with little speedwork. Although maybe the odd fartlek and some strides might counter that.

One of my motivations for asking is purely selfish too. With DCM next year I was toying with the idea of a big Lydiard base building phase before transitioning on to an alternate approach. I don't particularly like the look of how he approaches phases 3 and 4 but that could be more down to my misinterpretation than anything else.

Swashbuckler

Oh and you're not allowed defer to your advisors 😆

Murph_D

Ha. Well it is a good question and the truth is that I am winging it, relying so far on the advice of @Duanington as you know. He has been using the principles for some time and while I've read the Keith Livingston book and some of the original Lydiard books I'm happy to defer to someone who has been looking at this stuff a lot longer than me, and especially how the 'method' has evolved over time - the use of HRMs for instance, which wasn't something Lydiard had at his disposal.

I find the original books a little frustrating as the schedules given are for elites and not applicable to the mid pack without substantial modification. Even the Livingstone book is short of an actual day by day schedule of the sort that I like to use, so I'm happy to let D interpret for me as long as he's willing.

So while I've been doing the anaerobic base phase now for some time, the 'hill transition' phase I'm now about to do for the next 8 weeks seems to be a continuation of that with one hill session per week. This is quite different from a 'by the book' week of multiple sessions on a version of Lydiard's famous 'hill loop' - which suits me, as specific hill sessions have never been part of my routine. That said, I've been trying as advised to do the steady aerobic sub-threshold runs on undulating ground as much as possible.

So to answer your specific questions,

1. I'm planning to use the approach from start to finish, yes. It possibly will incorporate some other philosophies, but in a good way, as far as my understanding goes of D's research around 'updated' versions of the approach. Hopefully M will be joining too - we are all planning to do Chicago, so it's good to be all on the same page in terms of timing the phases. Following this current 8 weeks, which is still very 'aerobicy', there will be 12 weeks that I'm sure will include some sort of sharpening.
2. I enjoyed Phase One, but it wasn't a perfect application. I don't think Lydiard approved of racing during this phase as it undermines the aerobic development goal. (I raced quite a bit, including two 10-milers and a couple of one- and two-milers.) The shorter races were decent enough and while the times probably reflect the lack of anaerobic training, I don't think avoiding speedwork at this stage of a marathon buildup is a problem. I'm not even sure there will be ANY specific speedwork - as I understand it, Lydiard would introduce this more for his middle distance runners than his marathon people. The hill work is going to help with leg strength anyway, and the strides/fartleks as you say. But who knows what's in store. 😉

Despite the less than perfect application, I've definitely felt the benefit of the aerobic work (which followed many months of half marathon specific stuff in the second half of last year, so it wasn't going on top of nothing). The fact that the two 10-mile races were the best I've ever run is very encouraging. I'm hoping the covid break hasn't undone too much of the work, but I should know the answer to that when I attempt another long sub-threshold run later this week.

Thanks for asking - my answers are probably not very enlightening as I have been deferring so much of the thinking on this phase. Standing on the shoulders of giants and all that.