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Istanbul : 737 Skids Off Runway and Breaks Up

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,759 ✭✭✭dzilla




  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    737s snap in that location behind the cockpit more than they really should. One of the Lionair write-offs and the Turkish crash in Schiphol come to mind


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,366 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    DOCARCH wrote: »
    Not a great time for Boeing!

    How's that?

    If there's a car accident in bad weather, poor visibility, high winds etc. in a Passat is that not a great time for Volkswagen ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭Fritzbox


    L1011 wrote: »
    737s snap in that location behind the cockpit more than they really should. One of the Lionair write-offs and the Turkish crash in Schiphol come to mind

    According to the article the plane rolled down a bank, so it would be no surprice if the airframe did break up into pieces.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,673 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Tenzor07 wrote: »
    How's that?

    If there's a car accident in bad weather, poor visibility, high winds etc. in a Passat is that not a great time for Volkswagen ?

    With car accidents you generally don't tend to have the type/model of car involved in the 'headline'.

    I was not suggesting for a minute any fault with the aircraft....all I was getting at is it's yet another Boeing in the news.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,366 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    DOCARCH wrote: »
    I was not suggesting for a minute any fault with the aircraft....all I was getting at is it's yet another Boeing in the news.

    Just as well it wasn't the usual A320 they use for this route, otherwise wouldn't have attracted much controversy..

    Not sure which airframe could have withstood this incident..
    According to Mode-S data transmitted by the aircraft the aircraft landed long and hot, 1500 meters before the runway threshold the aircraft was descending through 950 feet MSL (corrected for local pressure, actual Mode-S reading 1500 feet)/661 feet AGL at 194 knots over ground, touched down about abeam taxiways T/F (about 1950 meters/6400 feet past the threshold, about 1000 meters/3300 feet before the runway end) at about 130 knots over ground, overran the end of the runway at about 63 knots over ground veering slightly to the left (last transponder transmission), hit the localizer antenna runway 06, went over an airport road and a cliff and impacted the airport perimeter wall.


  • Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭mr.anonymous


    DOCARCH wrote: »
    With car accidents you generally don't tend to have the type/model of car involved in the 'headline'.

    I was not suggesting for a minute any fault with the aircraft....all I was getting at is it's yet another Boeing in the news.

    Definitely- to the untrained eye it looks like another faulty Boeing.

    Reports say it crossed the threshold at 600ft AGL & 190kt. Looks like an approach that should have been abandoned. Hopefully it'll stay a non fatal accident.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,366 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Definitely- to the untrained eye it looks like another faulty Boeing.

    This 738 was an 11 year old airframe, landing with an airspeed of 130 knots above ground, with only 3300 feet of runway, and possibly with a strong enough tailwind...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222




  • Registered Users Posts: 644 ✭✭✭faoiarvok


    Tenzor07 wrote: »
    airspeed of 130 knots above ground

    Air speed or ground speed?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,366 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    faoiarvok wrote: »
    Air speed or ground speed?

    Ground....


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭Noxegon


    L1011 wrote: »
    737s snap in that location behind the cockpit more than they really should. One of the Lionair write-offs and the Turkish crash in Schiphol come to mind

    If you haven't watched it, this is an interesting and very relevant documentary.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/peopleandpower/2010/12/20101214104637901849.html

    It dates from well before the 737 MAX saga, too.

    I develop Superior Solitaire when I'm not procrastinating on boards.ie.



  • Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭Fritzbox


    Noxegon wrote: »
    If you haven't watched it, this is an interesting and very relevant documentary.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/peopleandpower/2010/12/20101214104637901849.html

    It dates from well before the 737 MAX saga, too.

    And?

    As far as I can see, the 737 Classic and 737NG have had, on the whole, very good safety records - no worse than the MD-80/MD-90 or A320.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭Noxegon


    Fritzbox wrote: »
    And? As far as I can see, the 737 Classic and 737NG have had, on the whole, very good safety records - no worse than the MD-80/MD-90 or A320.

    I was replying to a poster who talked about 737s snapping in a certain way. If you watch the programme it offers a potential explanation for that.

    I develop Superior Solitaire when I'm not procrastinating on boards.ie.



  • Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭Fritzbox


    Noxegon wrote: »
    I was replying to a poster who talked about 737s snapping in a certain way. If you watch the programme it offers a potential explanation for that.

    Regardless of what it may say in the documentary - has the 737 ever shown any tendency to "snap in a certain way" in real life. Perhaps only in those circumstances when you would expect it, or any other type of aircraft, to do so (like in the today's accident)?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Fritzbox wrote: »
    Regardless of what it may say in the documentary - has the 737 ever shown any tendency to "snap in a certain way" in real life. Perhaps only in those circumstances when you would expect it, or any other type of aircraft, to do so (like in the today's accident)?

    A320s in similar landings have generally not broken up as significantly as 737s. Compare the Lion Air water landing to the US Airways one for instance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭Fritzbox


    L1011 wrote: »
    A320s in similar landings have generally not broken up as significantly as 737s. Compare the Lion Air water landing to the US Airways one for instance.

    You mean this event: https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130413-0

    Take note of this sentence from the report:
    At 150 ft AGL the captain took over control. The copilot handed the control to the captain and stated that he could not see the runway. At 15:10:01, the EGPWS called out "Twenty", and the captain commanded a go around. One second later the aircraft impacted the water.

    The US Airways pilots performed a successful controlled landing into the water. The Lion Air pilots were not performing any kind of controlled landing - they were doing the opposite - they didn't even see the water.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Andrew33


    Why were they landing with a strong tail wind? As another poster said, should have been an abort.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭Noxegon


    Fritzbox wrote: »
    has the 737 ever shown any tendency to "snap in a certain way" in real life.

    With respect, this is not relevant.

    The discussion was regarding the 737 splitting in a particular way in a crash. Aircraft are put through forces in a crash that they would never encounter in decades of routine operation.

    The documentary I linked offers an explanation for why that might be. Is it right? Who knows. But it's certainly plausible.

    I'm going to step away from this thread now. Have a good evening all.

    I develop Superior Solitaire when I'm not procrastinating on boards.ie.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,623 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Unfortunately there has been one fatality and with 157 injured out of 177...

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7970163/Passenger-plane-skids-runway-bursts-flames-Turkish-airport.html


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,016 ✭✭✭✭smurfjed


    Why were they landing with a strong tail wind?
    Stupidity?


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,398 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Would this point to a particular issue with Pegasus' SoP or training programmes?

    I'd find it very odd that any Airline encounters this issue twice, let alone twice inside a month.


  • Registered Users Posts: 273 ✭✭Banzai600


    i know nothing of flying an aircraft etc......


    but WHY is their a ditch / massive slope off the runway where this plane landed ? Surely if the ground was level the outcome would have been much better. its a wodner it broke up, the sheer size of it coming off a runway down a massive hill into the ground below, it was going to break up..

    look at the drop it came down from the runway
    plane-Istanbul-Getty.jpg?ve=1&tl=1


    and apparently, the airport had a similar accident in 2018, no fatalities, but the plane came off the runway and down the very very large ditch that time too.

    And i also read that the same carrier here Pegasus, had an off runway excursion on Jan 7th this year.

    https://www.aerotime.aero/clement.charpentreau/24520-breaking-plane-breaks-in-two-after-landing-in-istanbul-airport


    finally, the more i hear about boeing aircraft the less i want to fly on them. Coincidence maybe, but anything sh!te i hear about boeing being good, i'll not be entertaining.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,366 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Fuselages all have there limits, and very few could withstand heavy impacts into ditches and up or down slopes:

    https://www.1001crash.com/index-page-description-accident-A320_TACA-lg-2-crash-221.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,016 ✭✭✭✭smurfjed




  • Registered Users Posts: 273 ✭✭Banzai600


    i get the fuselage was under immense forces, but WHY have a runway on an embankment ?

    that to me is sheer idiocy(?).


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Banzai600 wrote: »
    i get the fuselage was under immense forces, but WHY have a runway on an embankment ?

    that to me is sheer idiocy(?).


    It not at all unusual. Ever see Madiera airport?


    59_big.jpg

    madeira-airport-runway-1489506215-herowidev4-0.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,843 ✭✭✭Van.Bosch


    Banzai600 wrote: »
    i know nothing of flying an aircraft etc......


    but WHY is their a ditch / massive slope off the runway where this plane landed ? Surely if the ground was level the outcome would have been much better. its a wodner it broke up, the sheer size of it coming off a runway down a massive hill into the ground below, it was going to break up..

    look at the drop it came down from the runway
    plane-Istanbul-Getty.jpg?ve=1&tl=1


    and apparently, the airport had a similar accident in 2018, no fatalities, but the plane came off the runway and down the very very large ditch that time too.

    And i also read that the same carrier here Pegasus, had an off runway excursion on Jan 7th this year.

    https://www.aerotime.aero/clement.charpentreau/24520-breaking-plane-breaks-in-two-after-landing-in-istanbul-airport


    finally, the more i hear about boeing aircraft the less i want to fly on them. Coincidence maybe, but anything sh!te i hear about boeing being good, i'll not be entertaining.

    You can’t blame the slope and Boeing, if the slope is an issue then an Airbus would have broken up too. Issue was the pilots shouldn’t have landed that fast with that tailwind on a wet runway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 273 ✭✭Banzai600


    It not at all unusual. Ever see Madiera airport?


    looks iffy to say the least...



    Van.Bosch wrote: »
    You can’t blame the slope and Boeing, if the slope is an issue then an Airbus would have broken up too. Issue was the pilots shouldn’t have landed that fast with that tailwind on a wet runway.


    fair enough, like i said, i know nout re landing a plane. but even still, pilot error may be the case, but you need a run off, safe area, thats what im getting at


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,365 ✭✭✭Ryath


    Death toll up to 3 now 179 injured
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51384667
    It not at all unusual. Ever see Madiera airport?


    59_big.jpgmadeira-airport-runway-1489506215-herowidev4-0.jpg

    Madiera looks more dramatic but Wellington is over 600m shorter at 2081m! :eek: For reference the runways in Turkey are 4100m and 3750 long.

    21a10d8234051035a00d4a7106e53550.jpg


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