Opening a Coffee Shop in the back of a Bookshop

gomgat

Hey Everybody

I'm planning on opening a Coffee Shop in the backroom of a busy Bookshop. We will have coffee, tea etc. pre-made packaged food and snacks bought in from a supplier and then tables and chairs and sofas.

Does anyone know what we'll need to satisfy EHO - ventilation wise, toilet wise, since it is ancillary to the main business, which is the bookshop.

I know I will have to contact the EHO and everything, but I have yet to get an appointment with my local EHO,she has been very busy, so I would be grateful if anyone with practical experience in this field can give me some advice.

TIA

Bandara

gabrielmaritz wrote: »

Hey Everybody

I'm planning on opening a Coffee Shop in the backroom of a busy Bookshop. We will have coffee, tea etc. pre-made packaged food and snacks bought in from a supplier and then tables and chairs and sofas.

Does anyone know what we'll need to satisfy EHO - ventilation wise, toilet wise, since it is ancillary to the main business, which is the bookshop.

I know I will have to contact the EHO and everything, but I have yet to get an appointment with my local EHO,she has been very busy, so I would be grateful if anyone with practical experience in this field can give me some advice.

TIA

This sounds like a business than cannot survive. I’m sorry. And that’s a very negative response from me, but the incredible difficultly of making money in the food business is simply hugely underestimated by people.

Even if the bookshop is on a scale of a busy Easons in any of the top cities in the country, it will be so hard to not lose money even with years of cafe experience behind you.

And as an aside, bookshops don’t like people browsing with a takeaway coffee or tea in their hand, and the proliferation of cafes and such like everywhere, it invalidates the need to go into a bookshop with a cafe in it, to sit down and have a cup of tea and a scone etc.

Are the rent/rates minuscule? - arguably you should be paying close to nothing with added value you can claim to be bringing to the site ? If so you may have a chance if it’s a busy enough site and you will be able to run it as the only staff member yourself, and will not need to employ anyone else.

I know factually that the Insomnia site based in Easons, O’Connell street in Dublin loses money each year.

Please thread very carefully. Everyone you know and who you go to ask them for their opinion, will say it’s a great idea and to go for it. But straight off the bat “pre-made packaged food and snacks bought in from a supplier” - this sounds like your in the wrong mindset to be very honest with you. Unless you offering quality or something made with love and effort put into it, your doomed. There’s plenty of superbly located petrol stations and spar shops with tablets and chairs in them selling this type of stuff, and it’s a tiny supplement to their businesses as the numbers don’t make sense. Buying it in = 30%/40% margin and wastage is on you. And quite often with minimum order quantities.

If you wish to put up the associated fixed costs and your projections am happy to try to help.

With respect, you need to be able to be very sure it is a viable business, before even looking into how to go about making it a business that exists.

gomgat

Bandara wrote: »

This sounds like a business than cannot survive. I’m sorry. And that’s a very negative response from me, but the incredible difficultly of making money in the food business is simply hugely underestimated by people.

Even if the bookshop is on a scale of a busy Easons in any of the top cities in the country, it will be so hard to not lose money even with years of cafe experience behind you.

And as an aside, bookshops don’t like people browsing with a takeaway coffee or tea in their hand, and the proliferation of cafes and such like everywhere, it invalidates the need to go into a bookshop with a cafe in it, to sit down and have a cup of tea and a scone etc.

Are the rent/rates minuscule? - arguably you should be paying close to nothing with added value you can claim to be bringing to the site ? If so you may have a chance if it’s a busy enough site and you will be able to run it as the only staff member yourself, and will not need to employ anyone else.

I know factually that the Insomnia site based in Easons, O’Connell street in Dublin loses money each year.

Please thread very carefully. Everyone you know and who you go to ask them for their opinion, will say it’s a great idea and to go for it. But straight off the bat “pre-made packaged food and snacks bought in from a supplier” - this sounds like your in the wrong mindset to be very honest with you. Unless you offering quality or something made with love and effort put into it, your doomed. There’s plenty of superbly located petrol stations and spar shops with tablets and chairs in them selling this type of stuff, and it’s a tiny supplement to their businesses as the numbers don’t make sense. Buying it in = 30%/40% margin and wastage is on you. And quite often with minimum order quantities.

If you wish to put up the associated fixed costs and your projections am happy to try to help.

With respect, you need to be able to be very sure it is a viable business, before even looking into how to go about making it a business that exists.

The bookshop owner is more than happy to let people drink as they browse, the whole idea to bring a coffee shop into the bookshop is a joint idea by myself and the bookshop owner. Rent is miniscule, totally. The bookshop is a very busy bookshop and we are already running a lot of successful events there in the evenings and at other times. We run live literature events, music concerts, art exhibitions, writing clubs and workshops and the like. The bookshop is getting too smale for the size of the events we're running, the events are popular
and we've had to turn people away, hence the need to expand into the unused backroom. We have a strong local artist/music and writing community and the bookshop is a constant hub of activity. We are experienced and well connected in the local creative community.

The idea is to do high quality and specialty coffee and the pre-packaged food and cakes are going to be from high quality, local artisan suppliers. I will be the only full time employee and my wife is going to help part time.

My question is about the Environmental health aspects and what will be needed for this. That's why I didn't go into the nature of the business itself and the validity of the business.

Darc19

I'll pm you either later or tomorrow.

Was involved in a similar set up about 5 years ago.

The good news is it's not onerous and no planning issues.

PickYourName

Bandara wrote: »

This sounds like a business than cannot survive.

This is simply not true - there are plenty of examples that show it is possible.

You are right to ecourage caution, but if there's a solid business plan based on realistic projections, it is entirely possible to succeed.

Bandara wrote: »

And as an aside, bookshops don’t like people browsing with a takeaway coffee or tea in their hand, and the proliferation of cafes and such like everywhere, it invalidates the need to go into a bookshop with a cafe in it, to sit down and have a cup of tea and a scone etc.

Again, this may be the case for some, but it is far from the case for all. There are many sucessful partnerships where both busineses benefit, each drawing customers for the other.

Bandara wrote: »

Please thread very carefully. Everyone you know and who you go to ask them for their opinion, will say it’s a great idea and to go for it.

I'd agree with that. The fix is to prduce a proper business plan, including financial projections based on realistic sales and known costs.

Bandara wrote: »

But straight off the bat “pre-made packaged food and snacks bought in from a supplier” - this sounds like your in the wrong mindset to be very honest with you. Unless you offering quality or something made with love and effort put into it, your doomed. There’s plenty of superbly located petrol stations and spar shops with tablets and chairs in them selling this type of stuff, and it’s a tiny supplement to their businesses as the numbers don’t make sense.

I'm afraid you are yet again projecting some information you may have into the general case. I can assure you there are plenty of petrol stations earning six figure sums from their automated coffee machines at very high margins (there are rumours of at least one with a seven figure revenue). Why on earth do you think they all have them now? I'm not suggesting you put an automated coffee machine in a bookshop and expect the profits to roll in; it's just to make the point that you are making some very erroneous claims about the overall business.

I'd agree it's best to go for quality, but (depending on where you are), there are plenty of suppliers around who can provide this.

Bandara wrote: »

With respect, you need to be able to be very sure it is a viable business, before even looking into how to go about making it a business that exists.

Agreed, but why assume this hasn't been done?

PickYourName

gomgat wrote: »

The bookshop owner is more than happy to let people drink as they browse, the whole idea to bring a coffee shop into the bookshop is a joint idea by myself and the bookshop owner. Rent is miniscule, totally. The bookshop is a very busy bookshop and we are already running a lot of successful events there in the evenings and at other times. We run live literature events, music concerts, art exhibitions, writing clubs and workshops and the like. The bookshop is getting too smale for the size of the events we're running, the events are popular
and we've had to turn people away, hence the need to expand into the unused backroom. We have a strong local artist/music and writing community and the bookshop is a constant hub of activity. We are experienced and well connected in the local creative community.

The idea is to do high quality and specialty coffee and the pre-packaged food and cakes are going to be from high quality, local artisan suppliers. I will be the only full time employee and my wife is going to help part time.

My question is about the Environmental health aspects and what will be needed for this. That's why I didn't go into the nature of the business itself and the validity of the business.

That's a good answer to Bandara.

It's actually a very good way to get into the business: as you say, rents are low and there's a ready-made market. It is a tough business to make a living from, though, so you do need to plan carefully.

To your original question: it's not that onerous if you are not actually preparing food on the premises. I’d recommend visiting and talking to the owner of some place doing something similar to what you are planning (close enough to be relevant, far enough away not to be a competitor). If you talk to a few potential coffee suppliers (which you’ll need to do anyway), they can probably point you at someone to talk to. Best thing possible is to meet with the EHO, who can advise even at the earliest stages: certainly, do this before you open. It’s not totally necessary if you’re not preparing food, but some form of HACCP training would also be an idea.

gomgat

Darc19 wrote: »

I'll pm you either later or tomorrow.

Was involved in a similar set up about 5 years ago.

The good news is it's not onerous and no planning issues.

Aaaah, deadly, thank you so much, that will be highly appreciated

gomgat

PickYourName wrote: »

That's a good answer to Bandara.

It's actually a very good way to get into the business: as you say, rents are low and there's a ready-made market. It is a tough business to make a living from, though, so you do need to plan carefully.

To your original question: it's not that onerous if you are not actually preparing food on the premises. I’d recommend visiting and talking to the owner of some place doing something similar to what you are planning (close enough to be relevant, far enough away not to be a competitor). If you talk to a few potential coffee suppliers (which you’ll need to do anyway), they can probably point you at someone to talk to. Best thing possible is to meet with the EHO, who can advise even at the earliest stages: certainly, do this before you open. It’s not totally necessary if you’re not preparing food, but some form of HACCP training would also be an idea.

Aaah grand, thank you for your very helpful responses. I did a HAACP level 1 course 4 years ago, but definitely want to do another refresher.

Yeah, I realise that it is a tough business and have been thinking and planning for over a year, waiting for the right opportunity to come along and have a realistic business plan.

I don't expect my margins to be huge, but if I can break even(even though my forecast is for a loss in year one) inluding a salary for me that would equate to minimum wage, I'd be happy out. I'd be doing something I love and it will be hard work and a challenge, but I do enjoy hard work, especially if it's something constructive and tangible.

pedroeibar1

PickYourName wrote: »

This is simply not true - there are plenty of examples that show it is possible.............. I can assure you there are plenty of petrol stations earning six figure sums from their automated coffee machines at very high margins (there are rumours of at least one with a seven figure revenue). Why on earth do you think they all have them now?

:D:D Rumours indeed! But if you did a little homework on this forum you'd see that Bandara runs a chain of forecourt garages. And you are lecturing him?

It's a dog of an idea. Shrinkage will be big, as will spillage damage to books. It might start OK, but the two businesses while appearing symbiotic are quite different and it will be only a short while before the two owners fall out. Off you go and try it, show us the figures in a year!

gomgat

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

:D:D Rumours indeed! But if you did a little homework on this forum you'd see that Bandara runs a chain of forecourt garages. And you are lecturing him?

It's a dog of an idea. Shrinkage will be big, as will spillage damage to books. It might start OK, but the two businesses while appearing symbiotic are quite different and it will be only a short while before the two owners fall out. Off you go and try it, show us the figures in a year!

Except for the fact that I can give you at least 10 examples in Ireland and hundreds more worldwide where coffee shops have been running successfully in bookshops for years, perhaps ya'll need to start visiting more bookshops... the owner and me have been running events in the bookshop for over a year, where we served tea and instant coffee and people browsed and we are yet to fall out ... nevermind the fact that we are very good friends...I love the way people just make assumptions without knowing all the facts, without adding anything constructive or even relevant to my OP

antoinolachtnai

This is one of those things where it really depends on what the expectations are from the business. This business could be great fun for a few years and might even make a few bob here and there. It just isn’t likely to create long term value for you. Bandara would never get involved in a business like this because he wants to invest and create long term value. But your priorities (and capabilities and resources) are going to be different from Bandara’s.

For your original query, and in the light of what I imagine are your ambitions for the business, I would say you have to march on and do the best you can to get into business. The alternative is really to hire some sort of consultant to advise you on all the things that arise. But that is going to require cash investment and you have to keep your investment as small as possible.

I would suggest you get your key vendors on board early on, and that you lean on them for practical guidance.

The difficulty of getting an appointment with the EHO could tell you a number of things in itself.

This is unasked for advice but I would figure out between you and your friend how you are going to do the bookkeeping for this business and how your partnership (or licence or whatever you like to call it) will work and I would put something in writing, however informally.

I say this more for the sake of protecting your friendship than any difference it will make to the business.

pedroeibar1

gomgat wrote: »

………..just make assumptions without adding anything constructive or even relevant to my OP

If you ask for advice you will receive it. Whether you find it palatable or not is not an issue unless you want to provide a sensible rebuttal.

gomgat wrote: »

……perhaps ya'll need to start visiting more bookshops...

Therein lies the problem. Books are becoming less popular every year. Local libraries are turning into ‘community centres with some books’, their paper stock is being replaced with audio or online. I can read all the magazines I want, online, using my library card. Bookshops are on the road to extinction. Even charity shops won’t take books anymore. Although I have a book token/card sitting in my wallet for ages, all the books I bought in 2019 were either on Amazon or mostly from Kennys. (Kenny’s usually was cheaper and has free postage.) When the shop has to carry huge stock (to develop a specialist name and a loyal customer base) the trade’s high margins, sale or return, and remaindering are no help when the business has to invest so much for such a poor cash-flow. Suppliers also are squeezing credit periods. Should interest rates rise the cost of holding the stock would rise commensurately.

gomgat wrote: »

the owner and me have been running events in the bookshop for over a year, where we served tea and instant coffee…….

The first combined bookstore/coffee shop I was in was Borders in NYC during the 1990’s. Even they could not make it work, nor were Starbucks happy with their participation. Just look at the history of that fiasco, including its Irish arm! I cannot see the attraction of your instant coffee being a draw! Furthermore, the unit sales cost & margins are too diverse unless you introduce a minimum spend in the cafe (unworkable). Bookshop sells 20 books at €15, gross profit €150, you sell 20 cups of coffee, gross profit €20.

Even if you are serious about it, there are all sorts of issues (as raised by Antoinol). You are trying to develop a business within a business. Let’s say you succeed but the bookshop fails. What hope have you got of salvaging something of all your hard work from the wreckage? You would be far better off building your own stand-alone business if you are keen to go ahead.
There was a thread here a couple of years ago by a guy opening a coffeeshop in Clondalkin that you should find and read, it would be worthwhile for you.

gomgat

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

If you ask for advice you will receive it. Whether you find it palatable or not is not an issue unless you want to provide a sensible rebuttal.

If you read my OP, I asked for advice about the EHO and not advice as to the feasibility of the business.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Therein lies the problem. Books are becoming less popular every year. Local libraries are turning into ‘community centres with some books’, their paper stock is being replaced with audio or online. I can read all the magazines I want, online, using my library card. Bookshops are on the road to extinction. Even charity shops won’t take books anymore. Although I have a book token/card sitting in my wallet for ages, all the books I bought in 2019 were either on Amazon or mostly from Kennys. (Kenny’s usually was cheaper and has free postage.) When the shop has to carry huge stock (to develop a specialist name and a loyal customer base) the trade’s high margins, sale or return, and remaindering are no help when the business has to invest so much for such a poor cash-flow. Suppliers also are squeezing credit periods. Should interest rates rise the cost of holding the stock would rise commensurately.


The first combined bookstore/coffee shop I was in was Borders in NYC during the 1990’s. Even they could not make it work, nor were Starbucks happy with their participation. Just look at the history of that fiasco, including its Irish arm! I cannot see the attraction of your instant coffee being a draw! Furthermore, the unit sales cost & margins are too diverse unless you introduce a minimum spend in the cafe (unworkable). Bookshop sells 20 books at €15, gross profit €150, you sell 20 cups of coffee, gross profit €20.

You did not read my post, again. I am not going to be selling instant coffee, I am going to be selling my high quality coffee in well designed Coffee Shop with a good atmosphere. All I'm saying is that we have been providing instant coffee at events we ran in the past and no-one has ever spilled coffee on a book, since your post mentioned people are going to spill on books. Well, there was one person who spilled on some books ... the owner ... who then laughed about it - the bookshop sells mostly secondhand books. New books are usually only by local authors (but I must admit that section is growing huge lately)
As I say, we are doing events in there a lot and the bookstore is a hub for creative activity, not just for reading and books. The Coffee Shop will noo just be selling coffee and food we are hosting events ... Experience Economy, we've created a community, we're not just a Bookshop and not just a Coffee Shop.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Even if you are serious about it, there are all sorts of issues (as raised by Antoinol). You are trying to develop a business within a business. Let’s say you succeed but the bookshop fails. What hope have you got of salvaging something of all your hard work from the wreckage? You would be far better off building your own stand-alone business if you are keen to go ahead.
There was a thread here a couple of years ago by a guy opening a coffeeshop in Clondalkin that you should find and read, it would be worthwhile for you.

I take that point that if the Bookshop fails, my hard work is gone. We have a backup plan in case that happens, and if it does, I am fully prepared to take the hit.

gomgat

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

This is one of those things where it really depends on what the expectations are from the business. This business could be great fun for a few years and might even make a few bob here and there. It just isn’t likely to create long term value for you. Bandara would never get involved in a business like this because he wants to invest and create long term value. But your priorities (and capabilities and resources) are going to be different from Bandara’s.

For your original query, and in the light of what I imagine are your ambitions for the business, I would say you have to march on and do the best you can to get into business. The alternative is really to hire some sort of consultant to advise you on all the things that arise. But that is going to require cash investment and you have to keep your investment as small as possible.

I would suggest you get your key vendors on board early on, and that you lean on them for practical guidance.

The difficulty of getting an appointment with the EHO could tell you a number of things in itself.

This is unasked for advice but I would figure out between you and your friend how you are going to do the bookkeeping for this business and how your partnership (or licence or whatever you like to call it) will work and I would put something in writing, however informally.

I say this more for the sake of protecting your friendship than any difference it will make to the business.

Great fun (and hard work, I love hard work) and a few Bob here and there ... sounds like a good deal to me :cool::cool: Your assessment would be very correct, we are socialists, not capitalists.

Yeah, we are definitely going to do up a contract between me and the Bookshop owner, sound advice, thank you!

Trojan

gomgat, can you do us a favour and post some updates on how this goes over the next year or so? It would be really useful for folks who are considering these types of businesses - there are some other threads in this forum with updates over time and it's really helpful to see the evolution of the business & owner's thinking (e.g. ShowerGem, iCabbi, etc).

PickYourName

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

:D:D Rumours indeed! But if you did a little homework on this forum you'd see that Bandara runs a chain of forecourt garages. And you are lecturing him?

No, but you seem to be. What exactly is your problem? Someone asks for some advice; rather than answer what they asked you start lecturing them, telling them what a bad idea their business is, despite knowing nothing about what they plan to do or get out of it.

By the way, I called it a rumour only because it's not first hand knowledge: I heard it second hand from someone in a position to know. I doubt there are many places doing more than €1m/year in coffee sales from a forecourt, but there are many in the €100k+ territory. Try counting how many people get coffees in an hour at a busy forecourt and you'll get a flavour of what's possible.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

It's a dog of an idea.

In your opinion, but I guess it depends on what your expectations for the business are. The OP's seem to be quite modest and I'd say they've a good chance to meeting them.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Shrinkage will be big, as will spillage damage to books. It might start OK, but the two businesses while appearing symbiotic are quite different and it will be only a short while before the two owners fall out. Off you go and try it, show us the figures in a year!

You seem to know a lot about this. Obviously the many places that operate such setups haven't had the benefit of it, otherwise they wouldn't still be relentlessley flogging a dead horse after years of trying.

antoinolachtnai

gomgat wrote: »

Great fun (and hard work, I love hard work) and a few Bob here and there ... sounds like a good deal to me :cool::cool: Your assessment would be very correct, we are socialists, not capitalists.

Yeah, we are definitely going to do up a contract between me and the Bookshop owner, sound advice, thank you!

It is great that you are optimistic about this. When I say a few bob I mean literally that, bits and pieces of money on good days.

You are going to do this anyway so I am not going to try talking you out of it.

I don’t know your circumstances obviously but I think this sounds like a project for someone with time on their hands and who is financially secure. It’s not just the financial part; I don’t know that you will really learn much from it.

PickYourName

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

If you ask for advice you will receive it. Whether you find it palatable or not is not an issue unless you want to provide a sensible rebuttal.

No, the OP asked for advice on a specific question they had. They then received unwanted advice on something they seem to have more than adaquately covered and by someone who seemed to think they were qualified to give, despite knowing nothing about their situation.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Therein lies the problem. Books are becoming less popular every year.

Thus showing how little you know about the book business. You should check before being so free with your advice: after years of decline, there is strong growth in the bookselling business.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

you sell 20 cups of coffee, gross profit €20.

Thus showing how little you know about the coffee business. Or maybe you are in the business and that's all the GP you get? If so, it's no wonder you have the views you do.

Darc19

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Therein lies the problem. Books are becoming less popular every year. Local libraries are turning into ‘community centres with some books’, their paper stock is being replaced with audio or online. I can read all the magazines I want, online, using my library card. Bookshops are on the road to extinction..

The figures throw your arguments out of the ball park

Third year in a row of substantial growth.
12.2 million books sold in physical book stores
€147m in sales.

https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books/a-new-chapter-the-independent-book-stores-taking-on-amazon-38885076.html

PickYourName

gomgat wrote: »

As I say, we are doing events in there a lot and the bookstore is a hub for creative activity, not just for reading and books. The Coffee Shop will noo just be selling coffee and food we are hosting events ... Experience Economy, we've created a community, we're not just a Bookshop and not just a Coffee Shop.

I get completely what you're going for, and it sounds great: plenty of opportunity there for expanding what you do. You seem to have planned it out well, so I'd be very optimistic for you, despite the coffee business being extremely competitive.

One thing I would caution you on though is that despite being more socialist than capitalist, you should know and understand the numbers and aim to get and keep it profitable as soon as possible. Running a loss-making enterprise is no fun.

You may find the following Facebook group useful:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/coffeeshopstartup/

Any other questions, let me know, either here or by PM.

GreeBo

What's the current footfall in the shop and how much do you need each one of them to spend in your coffee shop for you to financially get what you want out of it.

If that's a realistic number then the rest is just effort, if it's not realistic then all the effort in the world isn't going to help you.

PickYourName

GreeBo wrote: »

What's the current footfall in the shop and how much do you need each one of them to spend in your coffee shop for you to financially get what you want out of it.

If that's a realistic number then the rest is just effort, if it's not realistic then all the effort in the world isn't going to help you.

Two things: firstly. the OP isn't asking for advice on the viability of the business, and secondly current footfall is certainly relevant, but not everything: one of the reasons for selling coffee is to increase the numbers of visitors to the book shop.

PickYourName

Darc19 wrote: »

The figures throw your arguments out of the ball park

Third year in a row of substantial growth.
12.2 million books sold in physical book stores
€147m in sales.

https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books/a-new-chapter-the-independent-book-stores-taking-on-amazon-38885076.html

Ah hear, now! You're trying to use some facts to dislodge someone's opinion: that will never do.......

MrMusician18

Darc19 wrote: »

The figures throw your arguments out of the ball park

Third year in a row of substantial growth.
12.2 million books sold in physical book stores
€147m in sales.

https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books/a-new-chapter-the-independent-book-stores-taking-on-amazon-38885076.html

Does that €147m include school books I wonder?

GreeBo

PickYourName wrote: »

Two things: firstly. the OP isn't asking for advice on the viability of the business, and secondly current footfall is certainly relevant, but not everything: one of the reasons for selling coffee is to increase the numbers of visitors to the book shop.

Footfall is what translates to sales.
Assuming the OP doesn't live in the only town in Ireland without a plethora of existing coffee shops then current footfall is what you have to base the viability of your business on.

Btw, they equally didn't ask for your opinions on socialism Vs capitalism. Leave the moderation to the mods thanks, you are not very good at it.

paddylonglegs

Best of luck with venture OP.

PickYourName

GreeBo wrote: »

Footfall is what translates to sales.

Nope! Having a product and service that people want to buy is what translates into sales.

Some of the busiest coffee shops I know are in secondary locations with very poor footfall; conversely, some of the quietest are in some areas of the heaviest footfall. As I said, it's relevant, but not the be all and end all.

GreeBo

PickYourName wrote: »

Nope! Having a product and service that people want to buy is what translates into sales.

Some of the busiest coffee shops I know are in secondary locations with very poor footfall; conversely, some of the quietest are in some areas of the heaviest footfall. As I said, it's relevant, but not the be all and end all.

If it's a busy coffee shop then by definition it has high footfall... Unless these coffee drinkers are getting their latte's delivered :rolleyes:

PickYourName

GreeBo wrote: »

If it's a busy coffee shop then by definition it has high footfall... Unless these coffee drinkers are getting their latte's delivered :rolleyes:

No need for sarcasm, thanks. I obviously didn’t explain myself very well.

Footfall in the sense of people passing the door (or in this case, the number who are there in the bookshop already).

You made the point that the business was dependent on the number of people currently shopping in the book shop.

I made the point that whilst relevant, this wasn't the critical factor to base any plan on, as one of the aims is to drive new customers to both businesses.

As I said, this can be seen in many locations, where very successful business are located in areas that previously had little footfall; they become destinations in themselves, where people actively seek them out; people who would never have previously passed their door (or in this case, visited the book shop).

Bandara

gomgat wrote: »

Hey Everybody

I'm planning on opening a Coffee Shop in the backroom of a busy Bookshop. We will have coffee, tea etc. pre-made packaged food and snacks bought in from a supplier and then tables and chairs and sofas.

Does anyone know what we'll need to satisfy EHO - ventilation wise, toilet wise, since it is ancillary to the main business, which is the bookshop.

I know I will have to contact the EHO and everything, but I have yet to get an appointment with my local EHO,she has been very busy, so I would be grateful if anyone with practical experience in this field can give me some advice.

TIA

Hi Gomgat,

I apologise if my reply, although I meant well by it, has led to a derailment of your original post. I suppose we can become a bit jaded here sometimes, as so many times someone posts looking for advice and then just goes awol and the time that some of us experienced people have given towards replying etc has been wasted. They posters were just bored and tyre kicking on a pipe dream they were never had any real intention to carry out.

Where are you based ? If you are in Dublin I would like to extend an invitation to meet me in a coffee shop/daytime restaurant that I operate, and we can go thru anything and everything you would like to know. Both on practical Day to Day issues you will face, and in terms of surviving in the business. (There is of course no such thing as a ‘stupid question’ in a scenario like yours - so you can bring a list of anything you wish to ask).

If you feel this may be of use to you please let me know and we can arrange. I do feel it may be beneficial to you. I’m not claiming to be some kind of guru, but I would be happy to help if I can.

Best regards,
Bandara.

pedroeibar1

Lots of keyboard warriors here, yet none of them have had the decency or bothered to find the link I referred to for the Clondalkin thread and provide it for the OP. It would be really beneficial to him.

As for the INdo article, yes, sales of real books are increasing, but the article quoted refers to shops that have a niche (gay, second-hand, childrens), several also have an online presence and the one thing they have in common is a continuous whine about Amazon. Go figure! Nor is it relevant to the OP’s coffee shop that is in the back of a bookshop; by his own admission he serves instant coffee at events and as a socialist, not a capitalist, just wants to make ‘a few bob’. So at these events he has an ideal opportunity to impress, a captive audience, potential customers, and yet he serves them instant coffee? What a key to success! Were I the bookshop owner I would show him the door as clueless and for insulting my customers.

As for those asserting that footfall is the key to success for a coffee shop, it is misleading and in this case plain stupid. For example there is huge footfall in railway stations and airports, yet the percentage of buyers is tiny when compared to the footfall : purchase ratio in other locations. Location is key (footfall has an input on location).

Had any of you (other than Antoin and Bandara) some (any?) knowledge of the business you might have (a) answered him on food regs or (b) quoted reports on retail / high street, the symbiosis of the High St. with coffee shops, the influence on sales and footfall, etc. Nope, you simply did not know. Or, perhaps (had you heard of it) you might have mentioned the Portas Report which specifically mentions coffee shops (a bit outdated but bits are relevant), or even the Allegra Strategies, Project Café15 EU Report. Go off and Google them, I’m not wasting my time. The project as described is a failure before it even gets off the ground (or a food licence).

Edit - crossed with your post, Bandara. Decent offer by you. I'd be surprised to hear a positive outcome.

PickYourName

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Lots of keyboard warriors here

Pot, kettle and black, methinks.....

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

As for the INdo article, yes, sales of real books are increasing, but...

So, you accept the point that your assertion about book sales was wrong? Adding a qualifier doesn't make it any more correct, by the way.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Were I the bookshop owner I would show him the door as clueless and for insulting my customers.

I think anyone reading what you say will make their own judgements about who's clueless here.....

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Location is key (footfall has an input on location).

Let's see: "[someone] asserting that footfall is the key to success for a coffee shop, it is misleading and in this case plain stupid" yet "location is key". I think there's something I'm missing here. What makes a good location, then, and why is that key yet footfall isn't? On second thoughts, don't bother answering that.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Had any of you (other than Antoin and Bandara) some (any?) knowledge of the business you might have (a) answered him on food regs

Yes, I do have some knowledge of the business and I did give advice on the question that was asked.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

or (b) quoted reports on retail / high street, the symbiosis of the High St. with coffee shops, the influence on sales and footfall, etc. Nope, you simply did not know.

Why on earth would I do that? The OP wasn't asking about sales or footfall; all I was doing was pointing that out to others who were giving that unasked for advice and the fact that what he was being told on the topic was plain wrong (your assertion about book sales being in decline being a prime example).

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Or, perhaps (had you heard of it) you might have mentioned the Portas Report which specifically mentions coffee shops (a bit outdated but bits are relevant), or even the Allegra Strategies, Project Café15 EU Report. Go off and Google them, I’m not wasting my time.

My advice is based on years of experience of running coffee shops, and from conversations with a relative who's a bookshop owner, not based on something a I read in a report I found on Google. Is that the extent of your knowledge of the area? Oh, the irony about your comment on keyboard warriers.......

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The project as described is a failure before it even gets off the ground (or a food licence).

Why so? Because all of the other cafes within book shops are failures? You should set yourself up as a consultant to tell them where they're all going wrong, so. By the way, what's a "food licence"?

05eaftqbrs9jlh

While I know nothing about business, I like the cut of the OP's jig. I would happily patronise the bookshop described. I'd appreciate a pm if you wanted to share where it was. Supporting local businesses like yours is so important, especially when you're making a grand gesture to stand out and attract custom in the face of idle cynicism and negativity. Remain cautiously optimistic!

gomgat

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

by his own admission he serves instant coffee at events and as a socialist, not a capitalist, just wants to make ‘a few bob’. So at these events he has an ideal opportunity to impress, a captive audience, potential customers, and yet he serves them instant coffee? What a key to success! Were I the bookshop owner I would show him the door as clueless and for insulting my customers.

.

You've just lost ANY and all credibility. You are just vindictive now. The bookshop owner and me served the bookshop owner's own instant coffee, because a kettle with instant coffee is all we have so far, since there are no coffee machines yet because THE COFFEE SHOP does not exist yet!!! The reason I mentioned the instant coffee was because you mentioned coffee spilling on the books!!!!
You're not adding anything of substance to this thread, even Bandara has apologised and offered sound help and advice, whilst you are just being insulting and calling me clueless without knowing anything about my background!!! Go away.

gomgat

Jessa Thousands Pink wrote: »

While I know nothing about business, I like the cut of the OP's jig. I would happily patronise the bookshop described. I'd appreciate a pm if you wanted to share where it was. Supporting local businesses like yours is so important, especially when you're making a grand gesture to stand out and attract custom in the face of idle cynicism and negativity. Remain cautiously optimistic!

Thanks, I'll send you a PM

gomgat

Bandara wrote: »

Hi Gomgat,

I apologise if my reply, although I meant well by it, has led to a derailment of your original post. I suppose we can become a bit jaded here sometimes, as so many times someone posts looking for advice and then just goes awol and the time that some of us experienced people have given towards replying etc has been wasted. They posters were just bored and tyre kicking on a pipe dream they were never had any real intention to carry out.

Where are you based ? If you are in Dublin I would like to extend an invitation to meet me in a coffee shop/daytime restaurant that I operate, and we can go thru anything and everything you would like to know. Both on practical Day to Day issues you will face, and in terms of surviving in the business. (There is of course no such thing as a ‘stupid question’ in a scenario like yours - so you can bring a list of anything you wish to ask).

If you feel this may be of use to you please let me know and we can arrange. I do feel it may be beneficial to you. I’m not claiming to be some kind of guru, but I would be happy to help if I can.

Best regards,
Bandara.

That's a very kind offer. I'm not based in Dublin, no, but if I am in Dublin in the next month or so, I will send you a PM and take you up on your very kind offer.

gomgat

Trojan wrote: »

gomgat, can you do us a favour and post some updates on how this goes over the next year or so? It would be really useful for folks who are considering these types of businesses - there are some other threads in this forum with updates over time and it's really helpful to see the evolution of the business & owner's thinking (e.g. ShowerGem, iCabbi, etc).

I will do so

pedroeibar1

I think that this thread is a good example of the level to which this forum has descended.
Here we have a dreamer asking for advice on licencing for a coffee shop in an alcove at the back of a bookshop. He, having told us about his success at serving instant coffee, provides no pertinent information on kitchen, seating, toilets, etc. Not an iota of an idea of what is involved but expects everyone to identify an easy route for HB approval and to congratulate him on his acumen and project. Then, he gets upset when a few pertinent facts are pointed out and, supported by a few losers, goes on the attack instead of asking why several posters – politely or bluntly – state the obvious.
Despite several mentions by me, nobody has bothered to point the OP in the direction of the Clondalkin coffee shop thread. Instead they post silly posts trolling me. He, of course, is too entitled or self-important to use the ‘search’ function.
What really shows up the OP’s ignorance and his failure to succeed ultimately in the venture is his stupid response to Bandara’s offer. (“if I am in Dublin in the next month or so, I will send you a PM”). Any serious person in the OP’s position would do everything possible to get the advice of an expert like Bandara, particularly when it’s offered free of charge. I’d have a meeting arranged already. But then, as the OP also admits, he is a socialist not a capitalist and only wants to make a few bob. I'm not holding my breath to read about his 'grand opening'!!

PickYourName

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I think that this thread is a good example of the level to which this forum has descended.

You seem completely oblivious to the fact it's you who is dragging it down with your gratuitous insults

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Here we have a dreamer asking for advice on licencing for a coffee shop in an alcove at the back of a bookshop.

No he didn't. There's no such thing as a "license for a coffee shop", which if you knew the first thing about what you are talking about, you would know. The OP has clearly done a lot of research already and asked for some specific practical advice from those who had the knowledge and experience to offer.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

He, having told us about his success at serving instant coffee, provides no pertinent information on kitchen, seating, toilets, etc. Not an iota of an idea of what is involved but expects everyone to identify an easy route for HB approval and to congratulate him on his acumen and project.

No, he didn't. What planet are you on that you could possibly derive such a meaning from a fairly straightforward query?

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Then, he gets upset when a few pertinent facts are pointed out and, supported by a few losers, goes on the attack instead of asking why several posters – politely or bluntly – state the obvious.

Personally, I think he's been remarkably restrained. Do you derive pleasure from heaping abuse and scorn on people? Am I one of the losers, by the way? Your "stating the obvious" by the way is simply a set of assertions based on ignorance of the relevant industries.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Despite several mentions by me, nobody has bothered to point the OP in the direction of the Clondalkin coffee shop thread.

How do you know? Out of interest, I for one took a look. Plenty of interesting stuff there OK: much good practical advice, but also much opinion like yours from those who clearly have no knowledge or experience to back it up.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Instead they post silly posts trolling me. He, of course, is too entitled or self-important to use the ‘search’ function.

I'm genuinely curious: why are you bothering to write what you do? It's hardly to offer advice, or give any genuine help. Are we supposed to be impressed by your superior knowledge and insight? Why the gratuitous insults? All you're doing is showing yourself up for all to see and believe me, it is not a pretty picture.

gomgat

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I think that this thread is a good example of the level to which this forum has descended.
Here we have a dreamer asking for advice on licencing for a coffee shop in an alcove at the back of a bookshop. He, having told us about his success at serving instant coffee, provides no pertinent information on kitchen, seating, toilets, etc. Not an iota of an idea of what is involved but expects everyone to identify an easy route for HB approval and to congratulate him on his acumen and project. Then, he gets upset when a few pertinent facts are pointed out and, supported by a few losers, goes on the attack instead of asking why several posters – politely or bluntly – state the obvious.
Despite several mentions by me, nobody has bothered to point the OP in the direction of the Clondalkin coffee shop thread. Instead they post silly posts trolling me. He, of course, is too entitled or self-important to use the ‘search’ function.
What really shows up the OP’s ignorance and his failure to succeed ultimately in the venture is his stupid response to Bandara’s offer. (“if I am in Dublin in the next month or so, I will send you a PM”). Any serious person in the OP’s position would do everything possible to get the advice of an expert like Bandara, particularly when it’s offered free of charge. I’d have a meeting arranged already. But then, as the OP also admits, he is a socialist not a capitalist and only wants to make a few bob. I'm not holding my breath to read about his 'grand opening'!!

You love assumptions.
1. Assuming I haven't searched or read the Clondalkin thread (I have, extensively). Darc19 also pointed me towards that thread in a PM, but by the time it was kindly pointed out to me, I had already read it. No search or anything on the Clondalkin thread, however useful, could give me information on the specific question I asked in my original post. A post that you still don't seem to have read properly or comprehend.
2. Assuming no successful Cafe owner close to me (not in Dublin) has offered me advice. They have, not that I am ungrateful for Bandara's offer.
3. I never mentioned my "success" in serving instant coffee, that's something you made up in your head completely. I merely mentioned that we served instant coffee and that no-one, bar the bookshop owner, ever spilled coffee on the books.
4. You assume that I am male. I am, but I love the way you assume everything.

You point out that me and the other posters are what's wrong with this forum, when it is in fact you who are the one bringing everything down. And you call me entitled and self-important ? Perhaps you should go hold a mirror up.

You have not offered or contributed anything of use, bluntly or otherwise. I took all the other criticisms on board, but yours have no substance. Why do you keep wasting your precious time replying to my thread if you are so sure that I am going to fail? Go live your life. I ask you once more and I ask you nicely, please stop replying on my thread.

Axwell

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I think that this thread is a good example of the level to which this forum has descended.
Here we have a dreamer asking for advice on licencing for a coffee shop in an alcove at the back of a bookshop. He, having told us about his success at serving instant coffee, provides no pertinent information on kitchen, seating, toilets, etc. Not an iota of an idea of what is involved but expects everyone to identify an easy route for HB approval and to congratulate him on his acumen and project. Then, he gets upset when a few pertinent facts are pointed out and, supported by a few losers, goes on the attack instead of asking why several posters – politely or bluntly – state the obvious.
Despite several mentions by me, nobody has bothered to point the OP in the direction of the Clondalkin coffee shop thread. Instead they post silly posts trolling me. He, of course, is too entitled or self-important to use the ‘search’ function.
What really shows up the OP’s ignorance and his failure to succeed ultimately in the venture is his stupid response to Bandara’s offer. (“if I am in Dublin in the next month or so, I will send you a PM”). Any serious person in the OP’s position would do everything possible to get the advice of an expert like Bandara, particularly when it’s offered free of charge. I’d have a meeting arranged already. But then, as the OP also admits, he is a socialist not a capitalist and only wants to make a few bob. I'm not holding my breath to read about his 'grand opening'!!

For all the good advice you give your attitude towards users the rest of the time stinks and isn't needed around here. The level the forum has 'descended to' as you put it is determined by all users, yourself included - calling people losers, suggesting people are idiots not capable of using the search function or posting a link to a thread. The same thread you mention but don't actually post a link to yourself either, while all the time you seem well able to use it when researching someone's post history before posting a response to belittle them or their idea. Very helpful and mature indeed..talking about people going on the attack when you are the one doing the name calling. Time you took a break from the forum as you seem to think having some years in business and knowledge allows you just insult people who are starting out and equate it to harsh truths. If the level of the forum has descended beyond your liking then feel free to find another one elsewhere to post on.

Darc19

What some people don't realize is "success" is measured in different ways by different people.

Similarly some people will degenerate companies that provide low level jobs.

Here's two examples

Bookstore - Woodbine books in Kilcullen. Great LOCAL bookstore. Great selection of books but would hardly support good salaries for the owners. However, the owners have made their money in a previous career and this is their dream and it is successful in relation to their projections.

Jobs - have a read of the threads on Center parcs, longford. Many were hoping and praying for abject failure. Most also pointing to part-time low paid jobs. They employ HUNDREDS of local people. Many simply don't want full time jobs. Adult company, comradery, and a basic pay is sufficient for them and having been there, they either are great at acting or genuinely like their jobs - even at €11/hour.

When I retire early in about ten years, I plan to be a professional MC. I won't charge many of the events and certainly will not make enough to pay for my lifestyle (decent pension will help) - so will that mean I am not successful? No but If I'm not asked back, I'll feel failure.

So success is not always about how much money you make and some posters need to understand that.

beauf

gomgat wrote: »

...
My question is about the Environmental health aspects and what will be needed for this. That's why I didn't go into the nature of the business itself and the validity of the business.

Can't help you with any of that. But I wish you well. I love a cup of tea in a bookshop.

I'll add that our favourite coffee\tea shops, are those that do ordinary food to high standard. Have good kids choices. They generally have a version of an ordinary sandwich or food that we go there specially for. Also a friendly, high standard of service.

gomgat

Darc19 wrote: »

What some people don't realize is "success" is measured in different ways by different people.

Similarly some people will degenerate companies that provide low level jobs.

Here's two examples

Bookstore - Woodbine books in Kilcullen. Great LOCAL bookstore. Great selection of books but would hardly support good salaries for the owners. However, the owners have made their money in a previous career and this is their dream and it is successful in relation to their projections.

Jobs - have a read of the threads on Center parcs, longford. Many were hoping and praying for abject failure. Most also pointing to part-time low paid jobs. They employ HUNDREDS of local people. Many simply don't want full time jobs. Adult company, comradery, and a basic pay is sufficient for them and having been there, they either are great at acting or genuinely like their jobs - even at €11/hour.

When I retire early in about ten years, I plan to be a professional MC. I won't charge many of the events and certainly will not make enough to pay for my lifestyle (decent pension will help) - so will that mean I am not successful? No but If I'm not asked back, I'll feel failure.

So success is not always about how much money you make and some posters need to understand that.

Well, exactly. Pedroeirbar calls me a dreamer, yet I clearly stated that I expect modest enough returns and a loss in the first year.

Everyone going for full-on capital gain success in unsustainable. Not everything is a competition.

gomgat

beauf wrote: »

Can't help you with any of that. But I wish you well. I love a cup of tea in a bookshop.

I'll add that our favourite coffee\tea shops, are those that do ordinary food to high standard. Have good kids choices. They generally have a version of an ordinary sandwich or food that we go there specially for. Also a friendly, high standard of service.

Thanks for your well wishes ! Friendly, that's definitely us and as for high standard, we will do our utmost best to consistently deliver the best we can.

I'm liking the idea of ordinary food to a high standard. Feel good, down-home goodness in a lovely friendly, inspiring setting is what we transpire to be.

beauf

I say that because a number of Cafes and Coffee shops we actually avoid because of the menu is too exotic for many people. A lot of book shop customers will have a kids who also love books. Our trip to the local coffee shop usually includes trip to the book shop first.

gomgat

beauf wrote: »

I say that because a number of Cafes and Coffee shops we actually avoid because of the menu is too exotic for many people. A lot of book shop customers will have a kids who also love books. Our trip to the local coffee shop usually includes trip to the book shop first.

Yeah, too exotic and too much choice, some people have serious anxiety about making a choice in the face of too many options. You see it all the time on, for instance Gordon Ramsay's show, where he simplifies the menu (and I have no big dreams of being Ramsay, just in case certain people on this thread want to accuse me of that too :D)

As for the kids thing, yeah the Bookshop is very popular with kids and we plan on having a few very special items and activities for the kiddies.

looksee

Can I suggest that you please don't get one of those deafeningly noisy coffee machines, they shatter atmosphere and stop conversation. Every coffee shop out there can do fancy lattes etc, maybe go in a different direction with real tea, plunger coffee, and some peace And a choice of gluten free beyond brownies and syntho stuff pre-wrapped in a factory. Good luck with your project, it sounds great!

PickYourName

gomgat wrote: »

Yeah, too exotic and too much choice, some people have serious anxiety about making a choice in the face of too many options. You see it all the time on, for instance Gordon Ramsay's show, where he simplifies the menu (and I have no big dreams of being Ramsay, just in case certain people on this thread want to accuse me of that too :D)

We're definitely on the same wavelength: agree 100% on choice. We focus on quality rather than choice; for example, we only do one or at most two types of sandwich at lunchtime, one type of soup and so on. It's been very successful for us.

duploelabs

looksee wrote: »

Can I suggest that you please don't get one of those deafeningly noisy coffee machines, they shatter atmosphere and stop conversation. Every coffee shop out there can do fancy lattes etc, maybe go in a different direction with real tea, plunger coffee, and some peace And a choice of gluten free beyond brownies and syntho stuff pre-wrapped in a factory. Good luck with your project, it sounds great!

In order to produce the pressure to extract the oils and flavinoids from the coffee, as well as the steaming of milk, the machines will always be loud.

As for the offering, there's certainly a business model that buys in their produce off site with a minimal area for food prep is viable, almost a kiosk-type set up, and they would certainly suit a book shop environment, three of my clients who I supply are that size, but what is essential to their commercial survival is their turnover of customer and footfall so I'd recommend that OP do some proper surveys on the footfall in their bookshop and compare them to a local kiosk-type setup, if a local one exists

gomgat

looksee wrote: »

Can I suggest that you please don't get one of those deafeningly noisy coffee machines, they shatter atmosphere and stop conversation. Every coffee shop out there can do fancy lattes etc, maybe go in a different direction with real tea, plunger coffee, and some peace And a choice of gluten free beyond brownies and syntho stuff pre-wrapped in a factory. Good luck with your project, it sounds great!

Well ... I totally agree with you in principle and have actually thought about it. Reality is that espresso based drinks are extremely popular, so we probably wouldn't survive if we don't do them. A lot of the noise are from the electric grinders. We're thinking of having manual grinders, and should be able to manage that with them with the volumes we expect. But, a lot of other places do not offer other types of Coffee (most don't understand the difference between a Black coffee and an Americano), where we will, so not every order will be a noisemaker hahhaa.

Decent GF and Plant based options are absolutely high on our priority list as are options for people with allergies. I am intolerant to Milk, not lactose intolerant, but intolerant/mildly allergic to the actual milk proteins. It's so hard for me when I go to Cafes to find decent milk-free options. I mean most now offer milk alternatives for an extra charge, but try to find a menu where milk isn't an ingredient in almost every item, especially where I'm from.