EV aficionado (Bjørn Nyland) denounces DC fast charging/supercharging!

Kramer

This isn't just a Tesla issue. Added to the already widely reported issues of poor range & battery degradation, this could be hugely damaging to future EV adoption.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnJYxRFZ18E

Sure, argue it's a non-issue as most will charge at home etc. but I think it's a major setback if what Bjørn posits is true. Tesla have the most advanced BMS systems & battery tech but felt the need to push for faster peak charging rates.
Will Tesla be forced to restrict charging speed to under 100kW peak from their much lauded 250kW in the Model 3?

Bjørn is recommending NO DC fast charging/supercharging, save for very rare or exceptional trips such as holidays :eek::eek:.
He will actively seek out an AC charge point rather than DC charge his Model 3.

Is that not shocking to everyone?

kaahooters

so, you stress the battery, and itll negetivley affect the battery. who knew.

Kramer

kaahooters wrote: »

so, you stress the battery, and itll negetivley affect the battery. who knew.

Bjørn won't even fully charge his brand new Model 3 past 60% at home. He won't DC fast charge it & he's going to have to baby it now until he shifts it :eek:.

Truly shocking IMO that the pinnacle of EV tech is so problematic already .

kaahooters

Kramer wrote: »

Bjørn won't even fully charge his brand new Model 3 past 60% at home. He won't DC fast charge it & he's going to have to baby it now until he shifts it :eek:.

Truly shocking IMO that the pinnacle of EV tech is so problematic already .

cant break physics.

the battries are amoungs the best in teslas, but not where the general population thinks they are.

ELM327

This is a surprise, and not a good one.
I'm about as vociferous a kool aid drinking fanboy for Tesla as there is but even I can't defend that.

I understood the S + X getting nerfed but I thought the new battery form in the 3 prevented this with better heat management and dissipation. Luckily I dont need to fast charge very much.

Old diesel

It's one guy and his admittedly well informed opinion.

To equate this to a wider adoption of EVs is a bit OTT.

Tesla are likely being overly cautious and will likely evolve their thinking further over time.

Already it looks as if the trigger point for Model 3s being nerfed is higher then Model S and X.

13000 kwh of DC/supercharging on Model S etc and 20,000 kwh on Model 3.

Remember Bjorn does a lot of long spins.

He's going for AC charging to compensate for that.

On a wider EV adoption theme two things of note.....

1) the Chinese are going for battery swop technology - pull into station - swop battery in 6 minutes. It's happening there with one of their EV manufacturers.

2) wireless charging is being looked at - that's an absolute game changer for EV use. Every time the car goes over the wireless charger it can charge.

Old diesel

Yes it's a problem.....

Is it good news - no.....

But Tesla will no doubt evolve this further.


Elon says he is working towards the million mile battery.

These trigger points for Nerfing on Model 3 are probably set with 250 kw charging and 10 hour 1000 km capability in mind.

If you had the exact same battery tech but set to 95 kw from new then we would have no thread here at all.

ELM327

Battery swap is a non starter. It's quite frankly a stupid idea.

Old diesel

ELM327 wrote: »

Battery swap is a non starter. It's quite frankly a stupid idea.

I'm not a fan of it myself but NIO are literally doing it as we speak.

KCross

Kramer wrote: »

Will Tesla be forced to restrict charging speed to under 100kW peak from their much lauded 250kW in the Model 3?

250kW charging was always BS anyway as its a peak value that requires battery pre-heating to achieve it, which would be difficult enough to do in this country.

Peak dont matter s***. Its the average over the charge session is all that counts and it was nowhere near 250kW to begin with, even before this video.

ELM327

Old diesel wrote: »

I'm not a fan of it myself but NIO are literally doing it as we speak.

I'm sure they are, but it may as well be coronavirus powered, it's not relevant in the rest of the world!

KCross

One thing that this video highlights is that people with no home charging have a real problem that wont be solved by having more rapid chargers everywhere.

Exclusively charging at DC chargers once or twice a week is going to be a mssive problem for resale value.


We will need
a) Loads more AC charging solutions inc wireless charging, work charging, lamp posts etc.
b) A battery breakthrough which solves this issue... i'd be thinking solid state wont have this problem.

ELM327

Agreed, Kcross, and I think this highlights another EV issue.
Second hand cars are a reality and a lot of people buy 1-4 year old cars currently.
With EVs there will be an unknown issue - how much is the battery nerfed by! If it was only supercharging it would be fine, but I have the nerf and it's all DC charging.

No one wants to buy an expensive car with planned obsolescence and that seems the way Tesla are going.

Old diesel

KCross wrote: »

One thing that this video highlights is that people with no home charging have a real problem that wont be solved by having more rapid chargers everywhere.

Exclusively charging at DC chargers once or twice a week is going to be a mssive problem for resale value.


We will need
a) Loads more AC charging solutions inc wireless charging, work charging, lamp posts etc.
b) A battery breakthrough which solves this issue... i'd be thinking solid state wont have this problem.

I think that in the longer term this issue will prove to be overblown.

Remember - even the throttled rate here is STILL faster then for example a brand NEW eNiro.

It will dent Tesla's reputation though - but I imagine that with Elon aiming for 1 million mile batteries - this gets fixed.

Edit - it will get fixed on future cars but not existing cars unless the newer battery chemistry is retrofittable.

ELM327

Old diesel wrote: »

I think that in the longer term this issue will prove to be overblown.

Remember - even the throttled rate here is STILL faster then for example a brand NEW eNiro.

It will dent Tesla's reputation though - but I imagine that with Elon aiming for 1 million mile batteries - this gets fixed.

Kona, E Niro, Soul all charge way too slow.
The ETron is now the best car for charging speed. Maintains 150kW for most of the charge curve and is still at 50kW at 100% displayed SOC

Kramer

ELM327 wrote: »

The ETron is now the best car for charging speed. Maintains 150kW for most of the charge curve and is still at 50kW at 100% displayed SOC

How long is the battery going to last with that battering though?
Would you buy a three year old E-Tron with 100,000km knowing it's been hammered up & down the M7 & regularly DC charged at those speeds?
It could (& should) suffer massive depreciation if this comes to fruition.

Justification:
1. It will be grand as a second car in a household
2. Lots of people only commute short distances so it'll be grand, even with 100km range & useless DC charging
3. The battery will still be worth thousands & be infinitely recyclable
4. Plenty of life left for the battery as it'll be used as domestic/grid attached storage

God, the Healy-Rae types are going to have a field day with this! I can hear Danny now:
"A €100,000 car, practically worthless after 3 or 4 years ".

I'd better phone up yer man from the radio, what was his name.............Boylan was it?

Kramer

Old diesel wrote: »

I imagine that with Elon aiming for 1 million mile batteries - this gets fixed.

Elon, the KING of marketing - a million miles .

ELM327

Kramer wrote: »

How long is the battery going to last with that battering though?
Would you buy a three year old E-Tron with 100,000km knowing it's been hammered up & down the M7 & regularly DC charged at those speeds?
It could (& should) suffer massive depreciation if this comes to fruition.

Justification:
1. It will be grand as a second car in a household
2. Lots of people only commute short distances so it'll be grand, even with 100km range & useless DC charging
3. The battery will still be worth thousands & be infinitely recyclable
4. Plenty of life left for the battery as it'll be used as domestic/grid attached storage

God, the Healy-Rae types are going to have a field day with this! I can hear Jackie now:
"A €100,000 car, practically worthless after 3 or 4 years ".

I'd better phone up yer man from the radio, what was his name.............Boylan was it?

I've had enough problems with Boylans in my life thanks but thats another story


The etron has a big buffer at the top and the bottom, I'd be a lot happier to buy an abused etron than an abused Tesla

pdpmur

Kramer wrote: »

Elon, the KING of marketing - a million miles .

You have to hand it to him, he has obviously perfected the Jobs cult schtick

Old diesel

Kramer wrote: »

Elon, the KING of marketing - a million miles .

It indicates more development being pushed at Tesla.

I expect the journey to 1 milion to be incremental myself and new Tesla's getting better over time.

KCross

Old diesel wrote: »

Remember - even the throttled rate here is STILL faster then for example a brand NEW eNiro.

That’s true but it’s about the marketing and customer expectations, not so much the actual figure.

A non tech savvy punter who buys s/h might roll up to a supercharger and get a very different experience to what they were led to believe.

unkel

Storm in a teacup.

Shock horror, Ioniq 28kWh only hits 65kW on Ionity after 3 years and nearly 100k km. Instead of the 69kW it hit when it was brand new. That's 2.32C instead of 2.46C. Terrible. Might as well scrap the car and all those hard driven Teslas that now only charge at 95kW :rolleyes:

Lumen

KCross wrote: »

That’s true but it’s about the marketing and customer expectations, not so much the actual figure.

A non tech savvy punter who buys s/h might roll up to a supercharger and get a very different experience to what they were led to believe.

It has nothing to do with being "tech savvy". There are Model S owners in Ireland who struggle to get more than 40kW from a supercharger in the current weather at 50% SOC. How much of that is temperature Vs nerfing? I don't know, but slow is slow.

I spent an hour or so on the mostly US Tesla forums this morning reading tales of woe about nerfed Model Ss. The happiest owner was the one whose pack had died and got a full replacement.

I know there's selection bias in internet complaints, but I wouldn't minimise the issue.

unkel

Old diesel wrote: »

13000 kwh of DC/supercharging on Model S etc and 20,000 kwh on Model 3.

Let's say you do 85% charging at home and 15% DC fast charging (this is a bad case scenario, almost all EV owners I know would DC charge much less than that)

Then with average consumption of the Model 3 at say 14kWh/100 km, that means you will not get any nerfing until the car hits almost one million km:

(20000kWh*100/14kWh) / 15%

Like I said, storm in a tea cup. Pretty disappointed that Nyland did not present this in a more neutral manner. His charging at home not over 60-70% on AC is absurd. The guy has always been lacking in technical knowledge, but normally his math is pretty sound. Not in this case, this video is disappointing.

Lumen

14kWh/100km is pretty optimistic. Where's that figure from?

unkel

Lumen wrote: »

14kWh/100km is pretty optimistic. Where's that figure from?

Does it matter? Make it 20kWh/100km and you still get no nerfing until nearly 700k km.

Most cars don't live anywhere near that long.

KCross

A point of clarification here as well is that he hasnt said this happens to Model 3's. It definitely happens on S/X.

There is one (AFAIK) unconfirmed report of it in the US on a Model 3 where someone did 100% DC charging and it nerfed after 90k km's

Lets see how his own car behaves over the months ahead. It will be one to watch.

unkel wrote: »

Let's say you do 85% charging at home and 15% DC fast charging (this is a bad case scenario, almost all EV owners I know would DC charge much less than that)

What about someone with no home charging? Isnt DC charging the grand plan for that scenario?

Lumen

unkel wrote: »

Does it matter? Make it 20kWh/100km and you still get no nerfing until nearly 700k km.

Most cars don't live anywhere near that long.

My own sums, based on motorway use (which is what I'm buying the car for) are...

20,000kWh is 400 DC fast charges from 10-80% on an LR, so at a rate of one a week that's 7 years of use. By that time I expect to have done 280,000km

One supercharge a week doesn't seem excessive to me.

But then my current motorway ICE car has done 145k in 3.5 years and is already starting to feel a little tired. I can't see it doing more than twice this distance before it's VERY tired.

Can I stop panicking now? :pac:

unkel

KCross wrote: »

What about someone with no home charging? Isnt DC charging the grand plan for that scenario?

No home and no work charging?

The EV enthusiast that I am, I have always told anyone in this country in that situation not to buy an EV

But yeah, if you never charge your Tesla at home or at work and never charge at any destination charger (is there even one Tesla in the world that has only ever fast charged?), then it will be nerfed down to 95kW after about 120-150k km

(99% of Irish EV owners can only dream of fast charging at those speeds)

ted1

Old diesel wrote: »

I'm not a fan of it myself but NIO are literally doing it as we speak.

Tesla tried it years ago and moved on fast.

Lumen

jusmeig

I've owned an EV for 2 years. Probably fast charged less than 10 times in total. Don't use car to commute, so just the occasional spin to Kerry and back.

What would u be doing fast charging if u live in a city and don't do long runs or high mileage? This lad is driving for the craic to the middle of nowhere. His use case is fairly unique. The 90% doing less than 20km a day are grand so.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

This is all a bit melodramatic.

Black_Knight

I was always a bit concerned with the amount of rapid charging 2nd hand cars in Ireland would have done, give then the DC network was free up until recently. I'm sure some freeloaders charged rapidly as much as they could to save a few quid

fricatus

Black_Knight wrote: »

I was always a bit concerned with the amount of rapid charging 2nd hand cars in Ireland would have done, give then the DC network was free up until recently. I'm sure some freeloaders charged rapidly as much as they could to save a few quid

Makes the case for being very careful buying a second-hand car with a pre-201 plate alright...

Lumen

jusmeig wrote: »

The 90% doing less than 20km a day are grand so.

Using a Tesla for 20km a day is a massive waste of resources.

These cars are sold on their fast charging, high performance, long distance capabilities, environmental impact plus a load of dubious self driving tech.

This issue affects several of those factors.

If we put aside the speculation about the Model 3, and focus on the S and X cars for which there is a weight of anecdotes, it seems that the throttling through fast charging history, state of charge and temperature adds up to something substantial, and that overall charge time is doubling in some cases from performance when new. On those cars the throttling can start after only a few months of use, if they're fast charged often enough.

None of this was an issue until Tesla introduced the throttling last year, which it seems likely it did for defensible reasons, fire safety and battery longevity. The alternative would be total failure of the packs if they continued to be fast charged.

It seems likely to me that the same pattern will apply to the 3 but after a longer period and off a higher initial charge rate. So it won't be a case of a flat cut off of the charging curve at 95kW, charge rate will also be hit at higher SoC and at colder temperatures. That's how the chemistry works, as I understand it.

Come back to this thread in a couple of years and we'll see if it was a fuss about nothing.

I'm still getting my Tesla though.

sk8board

It’s probably a storm in a teacup for most, but for sure if I’m buying a 2nd hand EV, having your cars charging capacity being restricted will affect the resale value and that’s simply a fact.

Heck I can probably even ask to see the charging logs.

Bear in mind that range, charge time and price are the things iterating and improving every year at the moment - so the nerfed 2nd hand cars (from any manufacturer) will be even further depreciated, just like a really high miler ICE car currently

In terms of mass adoption, the general public will be happy to sit on the sidelines to watch how this works out

jusmeig

Lumen wrote: »

Using a Tesla for 20km a day is a massive waste of resources.

I agree, but driving a silly diesel SUV for the same usage is an even bigger waste of resources. If I was to be 100% pragmatic, I'd not buy one....but I'm not doing that.

Lumen

jusmeig wrote: »

I agree, but driving a silly diesel SUV for the same usage is an even bigger waste of resources. If I was to be 100% pragmatic, I'd not buy one....but I'm not doing that.

Talking of SUVs, this can't be good news for the etrons etc. Their usability for longer distances depends entirely on fast charging.

Efficiency FTW. This is probably good news for the Y.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Somebody with better maths than me work out overage charge time for a new 10-80% and a nerffed 10-80%....my intuition thinks its a matter of minutes. Average charge mind you not peak.

Lumen

Ernest Nutty Check wrote: »

Somebody with better maths than me work out overage charge time for a new 10-80% and a nerffed 10-80%....my intuition thinks its a matter of minutes. Average charge mind you not peak.

I made a dodgy spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jz0qoKKrfyGXjaax9kzfoo_T5-2QMnRZxahYC37aMQY/edit?usp=sharing



50% nerf rate gives the 95kW peak.

Unnerfed data from Bjorn video.

So I reckon this will double charge times, before coldgating is taken into account. This is consistent with what I've seen reported anecdotally for the S and X.

e.g. 10-80% goes from 22-44 mins.

I welcome harsh feedback. :pac:

sk8board

Ernest Nutty Check wrote: »

Somebody with better maths than me work out overage charge time for a new 10-80% and a nerffed 10-80%....my intuition thinks its a matter of minutes. Average charge mind you not peak.

You’re probably right, about 25% more time at the charge point maybe, but that’s in a few years from now when everyone else with a new EV will be 25% faster that current times, so it’ll matter for resale and future drivers rather than now

Lumen

sk8board wrote: »

You’re probably right, about 25% more time at the charge point maybe, but that’s in a few years from now when everyone else with a new EV will be 25% faster that current times, so it’ll matter for resale and future drivers rather than now

This was always going to happen. Elon Himself said to expect new cars to be better than old cars, he just didn't point out that the old cars were going to get worse.

What's a nerfed Model X going to be worth when the Model Y is out? First world problems!

Lumen

This is the other possibility, a simple 95kW cap.



This would result in the 10-80% time going from 25 to 35 mins.

Lumen

The flat capped charging curve for the Model 3 LR/P looks a lot like an etron 55, scaled to account for the smaller pack and with less top buffer. :pac:

I wonder if it matches the curve of the etron 50?

jusmeig

Lumen wrote: »

Talking of SUVs, this can't be good news for the etrons etc. Their usability for longer distances depends entirely on fast charging.

Efficiency FTW. This is probably good news for the Y.

I seriously think it's a non issue. Majority just won't be doing enough DC fast charging to make it a thing.

sk8board

jusmeig wrote: »

I seriously think it's a non issue. Majority just won't be doing enough DC fast charging to make it a thing.

Absolutely correct, especially in an Irish context - however, it will definitely matter in the future to a future owner, as most/all cars eventually go over 200,000 kms - so it’s like buying a really high mileage diesel today - there’s always going to be a market for older EVs with both battery degradation and restricted charging speeds, but the buyer will know to ask and will expect a lower price for the car.

e.g when I sold my 08 520d msport touring a few years ago, the mileage was low, the car was mint, but all the buyers wanted to talk about was the timing chain issue (which I never had), but it cost me a lot on the cars resale value for certain.

pleasant Co.

Lumen wrote: »

This is the other possibility, a simple 95kW cap.



This would result in the 10-80% time going from 25 to 35 mins.

Did you just accidentally design the cybertruck?

liamog

My impression of nerfgate, is that Tesla are allowing it's customers to over stress the battery when rapid charging for the first x kWh then gradually restrict the charging rate until another x kWh. Whereas other manufacturers are applying the restricted rate from day one.

VW ID.3, 62kWh battery, max charge rate 100kW giving a charge rate of 1.6
Tesla Model 3, 54kWh battery, max charge rate 175kW, the charge rate of 3.2 eventually becomes restricted to 95kW with a rate of 1.75.

I've noticed that Tesla appear to approach battery management in a much more holistic fashion, they'd rather give the user better capabilities so long as they are used sparingly and gradually downrate the battery. Whereas the traditional manufacturers are giving more conservative capabilities from day 1 that stay stable over the expected life of the car.

Lumen

liamog wrote: »

My impression of nerfgate, is that Tesla are allowing it's customers to over stress the battery when rapid charging for the first x kWh then gradually restrict the charging rate until another x kWh. Whereas other manufacturers are applying the restricted rate from day one.

I would interpret it slightly differently. A fresh cell can take high charge rates and voltages with the right management.

As the cell suffers lithium plating and dendrite formation through charge/discharge cycles and accelerated by fast charging, it is less able to deal with those stresses and needs to be protected in order to avoid exponential damage.

liamog

Lumen wrote: »

I would interpret it slightly differently. A fresh cell can take high charge rates and voltages with the right management.

As the cell suffers lithium plating and dendrite formation through charge/discharge cycles and accelerated by fast charging, it is less able to deal with those stresses and needs to be protected in order to avoid exponential damage.

That's just the technical reasoning behind the effect.
I believe the charging profile is mostly a business decision.

Does a company sell a car that has a charging rate at 1.6C from 0-160,000km even with constant rapid charging. Or does the company sell a car that starts with a much higher 3C charge rate, that over time reduces based on the amount of rapid charging?

We're all early adopters, so are likely to understand the trade-offs of the two approaches, however the mass market is less likely to understand why their car used to be able to charge at 150kW when new, but now for some reason can only do 75kW after 5 years, when their next door neighbour had a similar sized car that started out capable of 100kW and can still manage 100kW. I suspect the owner won't be happy when they go to the garage and are told they've been using it wrong.

It's a very similar argument to the hidden degradation buffers.