Will it truly make any difference who forms the next Government.

I have made up my mind who I am voting for, I am even thinking of giving someone who I would regard as a fecking eejit a vote, mostly just because at least he has put himself out there.

Deep down though I can't see it making much of a difference who gets to form the next government?

Dakota Dan

Whoever gets in if they sort out all the country’s problems it will mean more taxes, you can’t win.

is_that_so

mariaalice wrote: »

I have made up my mind who I am voting for, I am even thinking of giving someone who I would regard as a fecking eejit a vote, mostly just because at least he has put himself out there.

Deep down though I can't see it making much of a difference who gets to form the next government?

Much as you were indeed. If housing is improving as claimed they'll have an easier time with that. Issues remain the same - health, housing, Brexit, climate issues and good housekeeping.

Calhoun

Not really in the short term, Irish politics right now is built upon compromise. It's probably a result of the PR system which I would say is finally working as it should.

What I mean by that is we have much more varied representative system than you would get with a first past the post meaning the actual power of the government is not as strong as if they had a strong majority.

Further making it more complex is the power of our public servants who are in place for allot longer than the minister / parties running the country.

LeinsterDub

Dakota Dan wrote: »

Whoever gets in if they sort out all the country’s problems it will mean more taxes, you can’t win.

You can have more taxes and a lower cost of living so you end up better off in the end

is_that_so

Calhoun wrote: »

Not really in the short term, Irish politics right now is built upon compromise. It's probably a result of the PR system which I would say is finally working as it should.

What I mean by that is we have much more varied representative system than you would get with a first past the post meaning the actual power of the government is not as strong as if they had a strong majority.

Further making it more complex is the power of our public servants who are in place for allot longer than the minister / parties running the country.

What it also means is more politicians of all hues working in the mechanism of legislation, through committees.

Beta Ray Bill

mariaalice wrote: »

I have made up my mind who I am voting for, I am even thinking of giving someone who I would regard as a fecking eejit a vote, mostly just because at least he has put himself out there.

Deep down though I can't see it making much of a difference who gets to form the next government?

It is highly unlikely that a major or minor government change will have any noticeable impact on the issues facing Ireland.
Reason being that the issue facing Ireland are at the very least 30 years in the making. Therefore it would be reasonable to assume that it will take at least half of that time to fix these issues.

The issues are two fold: People and Policy.

People expect to much.
People (particularly the latest generation) aren't hungry enough, 90% of kids turning entering adulthood have never had to lift a finger.
People place instant gratification over long term achievements.
People don't hold government and others accountable enough for their mistakes/wrong doings.
People don't plan enough for the future.

Policy on housing has been poor.
Policy on awarding government contracts has been poor.
Policy on Crime/Law has been exceptionally poor.
Policy on public sector employment/unions has been poor.
Policy on taxation has been poor.
Policy on financial regulation has been poor.
Policy on food production has been poor.
Policy on transport and infra has been exceptionally poor.
Policy on immigration has been poor.
Policy on Social Welfare/Health has been exceptionally poor.

There is also a serious disconnect between "the People" and elected officials, given just over half of our elected are millionaires.

No Government can fix this in 5 years.
They might be able to fix 2 or 3 Policy issues, but that's it.

blanch152

Yes, it truly matters who is forming the next Government.

The greatest challenges of our time are the twin issues of climate change and the human effect on the environment. A Green presence in government is absolutely necessary as a result.

Yes, it will mean hardship for some, maybe even hardship for all, but some very difficult decisions need to be taken in these areas. Without the Greens, any other party will not have the stomach for it.

The Greens are in no danger of getting an overall majority so the best we can hope for is that they have a meaningful influence on government policy.

After that, choose between FF and FG as to which you want to lead the government (my own choice is FG) but that isn't as important as a Green presence. After that ignore the populist parties who promise everything like the PBP and SF but consider giving a high preference to Labour or the SDs.

Calhoun

is_that_so wrote: »

What it also means is more politicians of all hues working in the mechanism of legislation, through committees.

Pretty much its a slow moving beast, which has many negatives but there is a strong argument for the benefits to it.

One of those would be that it has insulated us allot from political extremes we see even in the UK.

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, it truly matters who is forming the next Government.

The greatest challenges of our time are the twin issues of climate change and the human effect on the environment. A Green presence in government is absolutely necessary as a result.

Yes, it will mean hardship for some, maybe even hardship for all, but some very difficult decisions need to be taken in these areas. Without the Greens, any other party will not have the stomach for it.

The Greens are in no danger of getting an overall majority so the best we can hope for is that they have a meaningful influence on government policy.

After that, choose between FF and FG as to which you want to lead the government (my own choice is FG) but that isn't as important as a Green presence. After that ignore the populist parties who promise everything like the PBP and SF but consider giving a high preference to Labour or the SDs.

After the last time the greens were in government? Extra tax brought in, and what did that achieve? oh & they basically forced everyone to buy diesel cars, look what a good idea that was!
No thanks!
Their idea of tackling climate change is to charge more tax, tax tax tax. That won't solve anything.

Beta Ray Bill

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, it truly matters who is forming the next Government.

The greatest challenges of our time are the twin issues of climate change and the human effect on the environment. A Green presence in government is absolutely necessary as a result.

Yes, it will mean hardship for some, maybe even hardship for all, but some very difficult decisions need to be taken in these areas. Without the Greens, any other party will not have the stomach for it.

The Greens are in no danger of getting an overall majority so the best we can hope for is that they have a meaningful influence on government policy.

After that, choose between FF and FG as to which you want to lead the government (my own choice is FG) but that isn't as important as a Green presence. After that ignore the populist parties who promise everything like the PBP and SF but consider giving a high preference to Labour or the SDs.

Give me a break....

Ireland contributes 0.1% of all CO2 emissions, not at all bad for a first world country.

Get China, the US , India, Russia, Brazil, Indonesia and Japan to fix their sprawling population, pollution and habitat destruction problems first.... then we'll talk.

Green issues matter to me, but voting Green in Ireland is pointless.

Beta Ray Bill

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

It is highly unlikely that a major or minor government change will have any noticeable impact on the issues facing Ireland.
Reason being that the issue facing Ireland are at the very least 30 years in the making. Therefore it would be reasonable to assume that it will take at least half of that time to fix these issues.

The issues are two fold: People and Policy.

People expect to much.
People (particularly the latest generation) aren't hungry enough, 90% of kids turning entering adulthood have never had to lift a finger.
People place instant gratification over long term achievements.
People don't hold government and others accountable enough for their mistakes/wrong doings.
People don't plan enough for the future.

Policy on housing has been poor.
Policy on awarding government contracts has been poor.
Policy on Crime/Law has been exceptionally poor.
Policy on public sector employment/unions has been poor.
Policy on taxation has been poor.
Policy on financial regulation has been poor.
Policy on food production has been poor.
Policy on transport and infra has been exceptionally poor.
Policy on immigration has been poor.
Policy on Social Welfare/Health has been exceptionally poor.

There is also a serious disconnect between "the People" and elected officials, given just over half of our elected are millionaires.

No Government can fix this in 5 years.
They might be able to fix 2 or 3 Policy issues, but that's it.

So you know all the problems, do you have any of the answers?

lawred2

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You can have more taxes and a lower cost of living so you end up better off in the end

we could

but we won't

we'll get higher taxes and higher costs

Calhoun

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Give me a break....

Ireland contributes 0.1% of all CO2 emissions, not at all bad for a first world country.

Get China, the US , India, Russia, Brazil, Indonesia and Japan to fix their sprawling population, pollution and habitat destruction problems first.... then we'll talk.

Green issues matter to me, but voting Green in Ireland is pointless.

What is great is that if the Greens do get in and we get taxed to the hilt, the resulting heave against them in the next election hopefully will kill them off for good.

There is no place in Ireland for a party who cannot think how they would implement their policy in a workable manner and they have yet to show they can even grasp that concept.

Its quite telling when the Greens are nearly disliked more than some of the parties we have out there at the moment.

Markcheese

bubblypop wrote: »

After the last time the greens were in government? Extra tax brought in, and what did that achieve? oh & they basically forced everyone to buy diesel cars, look what a good idea that was!
No thanks!
Their idea of tackling climate change is to charge more tax, tax tax tax. That won't solve anything.

Jaysus ,the amount of whinging about the greens and diesels ,
Cos no other party has ever feiced up ,??
So about the only real party you can vote for is shin Fein,(cos they've never been in gov down here),but they've their own history too...
(And as far as I remember no one had a gun put to their head and forced to buy diesel )
Actually people were incentivised with lower tax ,to use less fuel if they bought a more efficient car ,( nox and particulate isn't great though )

_Brian

If the next government don’t incentivise green and positive climate points rather than taxing people into submission they will be done forever.

The greens are still tarnished with the carbon tax, it was just another tax and not put to any meaningful use. That won’t swing again. I think they will have a presence in the next government and I feel that will cost everyone with taxes and charges. If they do that again they will join the PDs and be consigned to history.

LeinsterDub

lawred2 wrote: »

we could

but we won't

we'll get higher taxes and higher costs

We will if we continue with the FF/FG duopoly

_Brian

_Brian wrote: »

If the next government don’t incentivise green and positive climate points rather than taxing people into submission they will be done forever.

The greens are still tarnished with the carbon tax, it was just another tax and not put to any meaningful use. That won’t swing again. I think they will have a presence in the next government and I feel that will cost everyone with taxes and charges. If they do that again they will join the PDs and be consigned to history.

I like their free public transport for students' policy.

LeinsterDub

bubblypop wrote: »

After the last time the greens were in government? Extra tax brought in, and what did that achieve? oh & they basically forced everyone to buy diesel cars, look what a good idea that was!
No thanks!
Their idea of tackling climate change is to charge more tax, tax tax tax. That won't solve anything.

FF/FG have been in power since the foundation of the state, every tax was approved or agreed by one of them. But you don't hear that too often do you?

lawred2

mariaalice wrote: »

I like their free public transport for students' policy.

should be free transport for all funded by motor tax and urban congestion charges..

cities should be largely closed to private motor cars

public transport, bikes or your own two feet should be pretty much the only ways to get around city centres...

Markcheese

Markcheese wrote: »

Jaysus ,the amount of whinging about the greens and diesels ,
Cos no other party has ever feiced up ,??
So about the only real party you can vote for is shin Fein,(cos they've never been in gov down here),but they've their own history too...
(And as far as I remember no one had a gun put to their head and forced to buy diesel )
Actually people were incentivised with lower tax ,to use less fuel if they bought a more efficient car ,( nox and particulate isn't great though )

Why would sinn fein be the only party to vote for?
I voted green party no. 1 the last time they went into government, I wont make that mistake again

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

I like their free public transport for students' policy.

Why just students? Why not everyone

Calhoun

mariaalice wrote: »

I like their free public transport for students' policy.

When i heard it originally it was proposed as a third level student policy, big risk of it being a policy for a certain income bracket/person in society.

Would also probably be a soft gain to offset a probable inevitable reintroduction of fees.

Geuze

_Brian wrote: »

If the next government don’t incentivise green and positive climate points rather than taxing people into submission they will be done forever.

The greens are still tarnished with the carbon tax, it was just another tax and not put to any meaningful use. That won’t swing again. I think they will have a presence in the next government and I feel that will cost everyone with taxes and charges. If they do that again they will join the PDs and be consigned to history.

Why do people associate the GP with higher taxes?

Every left-wing party will increase taxes:

SF
SD
Labour

Yes, the GP will increase the carbon tax, as you'd expect, which is a good idea.

SF plan cuts to pension tax reliefs, etc., etc.

lawrencesummers

As far as I’m concerned every one of them is full of bull, lies, is corrupt to some degree and would sell their mother for a Good salary and A TD’s pension. Very few of any of them are properly qualified for the role and are only good at debating.

But the longer they are in power the more corrupt and useless they become so vote in a new crowd, give them a term and ten vote in another new crowd. Let someone new uncover and publish the details of the children’s hospital, broadband, pensions, homelessness, health problems etc etc etc.

And then in 5 years turf them out before they get to comfortable.

Thelonious Monk

bubblypop wrote: »

Their idea of tackling climate change is to charge more tax, tax tax tax. That won't solve anything.

Well yes, we're pretty stupid as a race, so making things that are bad for the planet more expensive via taxes is probably one of the few things that works.

Calhoun

Geuze wrote: »

Why do people associate the GP with higher taxes?

Every left-wing party will increase taxes:

SF
SD
Labour

Yes, the GP will increase the carbon tax, as you'd expect, which is a good idea.

SF plan cuts to pension tax reliefs, etc., etc.

This one is easy to answer, as many of the commentators in our media point out a blanket increase in carbon tax will lead to "fuel poverty" where those with lack of means will be forced to pay more as they will not be able to upgrade to a cleaner system and or any charge put onto suppliers will be dumped onto them.

They also have the reputation because they provide allot of stick with very little carrot. One of their grand solutions that surfaced this week was communal cars for rural villages.

Most other parties that will come up with increase taxes will offset it somewhere else, or will do it in a more sustainable manner.

Finally like FF and Fg the legacy of their previous time in power is coming back to haunt them.

Thelonious Monk

Calhoun wrote: »

They also have the reputation because they provide allot of stick with very little carrot. One of their grand solutions that surfaced this week was communal cars for rural villages.

That's a great idea, it would reduce private car ownership and save on fuel. The current model for living in Ireland, especially rural Ireland, is not sustainable so hopefully the Green Party can implement some changes that will stop one offs and everyone in the country owning a car etc.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well yes, we're pretty stupid as a race, so making things that are bad for the planet more expensive via taxes is probably one of the few things that works.

I disagree. Make more sustainable things cheaper.
Make all public transport free, not just for students!
Make it easier & more of an advantage to the public to choose green options.

Calhoun

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

That's a great idea, it would reduce private car ownership and save on fuel. The current model for living in Ireland, especially rural Ireland, is not sustainable so hopefully the Green Party can implement some changes that will stop one offs and everyone in the country owning a car etc.

There in lies the rub, it is very easy to lead an emotive charge against the destruction of rural life in Ireland and also extrapolate it to how the Greens could destroy other areas of Irish life.

They are so scared of people linking them to really negative policies you had a fluff piece from Eamon saying that they are trying to work "sustainable solution".

Its a pity we didn't have a scenario in the past 20 years where we forced allot of people outward from Dublin to be able to afford housing that it becomes such a big issue.

Beta Ray Bill

mariaalice wrote: »

So you know all the problems, do you have any of the answers?

Without being smart, I wish I did.
I'm not party blaming here, FF, FG, Labour, Greens, PD's along with many Independents are responsible for the mess we are in now..... who's missing from that list :rolleyes:

Parties always seem to put money in peoples pockets rather than solve the underlying issue

I think a start might be to make social housing available to everyone whether you're rich or poor. Your rent would be a percentage of your income. there should be no moving up or down the list (front line service workers exception here), first come first served. The only other exception being: you need to be over 25 to apply.
€600m payout per annum to private landlords in HAP is a serious issue.

Removal of child benefit for new applicant 3rd children would help too.
IE in 11 months time, the parents of any 3rd+ child born will not be able to get state benefit for that child.
It wont affect any existing parents with 3 (or more) kids, or any parents that are expecting their 3rd (or later).
This Social policy change would force people to plan.

We need more prisons too, particularly for youths, only 1% of the prison population are under 18
An M50/East link toll bridge model would work well for this.
Let some private company build it and run it for 20 years and then hand over to the state.

Awards of multi stage tenders should cease too, and p*ss take contract agencies black listed.
NCH is still the biggest scandal in Ireland atm. It's going to be the 5th (possibly 4th) most expensive building in Europe by the time it's completed.

Retirement age is the next big problem facing Ireland, there literally wont be enough people working to support welfare payment and state pension (within 10 years by some estimates)

There are many other areas were changes could be made.
But like everything else, change means pain and people in general don't like change

Thelonious Monk

Calhoun wrote: »

There in lies the rub, it is very easy to lead an emotive charge against the destruction of rural life in Ireland and also extrapolate it to how the Greens could destroy other areas of Irish life.

They are so scared of people linking them to really negative policies you had a fluff piece from Eamon saying that they are trying to work "sustainable solution".

Its a pity we didn't have a scenario in the past 20 years where we forced allot of people outward from Dublin to be able to afford housing that it becomes such a big issue.

Well hopefully they can help to destroy it, the place is a mess now with no planning and no public transport and your reliance on cars. Needs to change.

Thelonious Monk

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Removal of child benefit for new applicant 3rd children would help too.
IE in 11 months time, the parents of any 3rd+ child born will not be able to get state benefit for that child.
It wont affect any existing parents with 3 (or more) kids, or any parents that are expecting their 3rd (or later).
This Social policy change would force people to plan.

Pie in the sky stuff regarding removal of child benefit. It's totally unfair on the child who didn't ask to be born and will never happen here.

Beta Ray Bill

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Pie in the sky stuff regarding removal of child benefit. It's totally unfair on the child who didn't ask to be born and will never happen here.

I agree with you in that it is highly unlikely that it will ever happen.

It would however have a dramatic effect on people by forcing them to change.

Perhaps some clever wording/slogan would help :D:D

Thelonious Monk

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

I agree with you in that it is highly unlikely that it will ever happen.

It would however have a dramatic effect on people by forcing them to change.

Perhaps some clever wording/slogan would help :D:D

It really wouldn't effect them. Many people have no concept of responsibility.

Bishop of hope

I'm in Longford, we are currently the only county with no TD, and it it makes a desperate difference to a county to have no TD. We are with Westmeath as a constituency and all our TD's at present are from there.
The only candidates in my county with a viable chance of getting elected are from FG and FF, so I'll vote 1 and 2 for one or the other, not sure which, not because of any belief that one will be better or worse than the other, but because as a county we need a TD to represent us in the Dail.
Makes little or no difference which of them is in.

Beta Ray Bill

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It really wouldn't effect them. Many people have no concept of responsibility.

It's meant to have an effect on the exchequer though.

It gets complicated with mixed families though....

Snow Garden

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, it truly matters who is forming the next Government.

The greatest challenges of our time are the twin issues of climate change and the human effect on the environment. A Green presence in government is absolutely necessary as a result.

Yes, it will mean hardship for some, maybe even hardship for all, but some very difficult decisions need to be taken in these areas. Without the Greens, any other party will not have the stomach for it.

The Greens are in no danger of getting an overall majority so the best we can hope for is that they have a meaningful influence on government policy.

After that, choose between FF and FG as to which you want to lead the government (my own choice is FG) but that isn't as important as a Green presence. After that ignore the populist parties who promise everything like the PBP and SF but consider giving a high preference to Labour or the SDs.

Blanch, would you agree that in order to really tackle climate change we have to abandon the idea of a growth economy and actually start contracting the economy (less consumerism, less trade, less travel, less cars etc etc) - negative growth.

Thelonious Monk

Snow Garden wrote: »

Blanch, would you agree that in order to really tackle climate change we have to abandon the idea of a growth economy and actually start contracting the economy (less consumerism, less trade, less travel, less cars etc etc) - negative growth.

Exactly, this is what I would hope for. But no politician is going to fly that flag.

Big Ears

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well yes, we're pretty stupid as a race, so making things that are bad for the planet more expensive via taxes is probably one of the few things that works.

Does it work if no alternative is offered ?

IAMAMORON

Probably not.

But considering Fianna Fáil bankrupt this country 10 years ago I think it would be a shame to let them have the opportunity to do it again. In particular Mehole Martin sat on the very cabinet in power when the country was crumbling. He voted to liquidate the national pension, bail out the banks, raise taxes against pensioners and introduced austerity.

It frightens me how many people have forgotten this.

LeinsterDub

Calhoun wrote: »

This one is easy to answer, as many of the commentators in our media point out a blanket increase in carbon tax will lead to "fuel poverty" where those with lack of means will be forced to pay more as they will not be able to upgrade to a cleaner system and or any charge put onto suppliers will be dumped onto them.

They also have the reputation because they provide allot of stick with very little carrot. One of their grand solutions that surfaced this week was communal cars for rural villages.

Most other parties that will come up with increase taxes will offset it somewhere else, or will do it in a more sustainable manner.

Finally like FF and Fg the legacy of their previous time in power is coming back to haunt them.

The Green's carbon tax would be revenue neutral for the general tax payer and would be used to improve housing stock and as such lower fuel poverty.

The communal\car sharing isn't going to be mandatory it's optional an alternative

blanch152

bubblypop wrote: »

I disagree. Make more sustainable things cheaper.
Make all public transport free, not just for students!
Make it easier & more of an advantage to the public to choose green options.

All of that has to be paid for. How could it be done? Why, through a carbon tax on fossil fuels. Carrot and Stick.

Exactly how the Green party policies work.

LeinsterDub

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Retirement age is the next big problem facing Ireland, there literally wont be enough people working to support welfare payment and state pension (within 10 years by some estimates)

Let me guess , if I suggested that perhaps the trillion dollar companies could afford to give a bit more you'd be totally against this?

Edgware

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Probably not.

But considering Fianna Fáil bankrupt this country 10 years ago I think it would be a shame to let them have the opportunity to do it again. In particular Mehole Martin sat on the very cabinet in power when the country was crumbling. He voted to liquidate the national pension, bail out the banks, raise taxes against pensioners and introduced austerity.

It frightens me how many people have forgotten this.

If the best you can come with is schoolyard naming " Mehole" its easy understand how politicians make a fool of you

Calhoun

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well hopefully they can help to destroy it, the place is a mess now with no planning and no public transport and your reliance on cars. Needs to change.

I hope they try it, will be interesting to see what happens. I mainly would like to see them do semi-ok so they can be destroyed again.

If they actually had decent social policies that help people change it would be a different story but most greens cannot see past their own ego and self-righteousness to understand that.

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It frightens me how many people have forgotten this.

I always find this one funny, its like some great take that you know more than the man on the street and people just have collective amnesia.

The truth is that there is no real alternative and if we are discounting parties that had no hand in the past 10-15 years in politics we would be left with most of the fractured left bar Labour and Sinn Fein. For allot of people thats not an option.

Thelonious Monk

Calhoun wrote: »

I hope they try it, will be interesting to see what happens. I mainly would like to see them do semi-ok so they can be destroyed again.

If they do ok they'll be gone in the next election you needn't worry, no one will vote for them after the next crash. I wonder if that tool Michael Fitzmaurice will get voted in again.

IAMAMORON

Edgware wrote: »

If the best you can come with is schoolyard naming " Mehole" its easy understand how politicians make a fool of you

Your entitled to have his back all you like.

But don't forget who you are actually supporting. He sat back and nodded his head when this country went broke. He was on the cabinet, he was involved in making the decisions that got us there.

I won't forget it.

Calhoun

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The Green's carbon tax would be revenue neutral for the general tax payer and would be used to improve housing stock and as such lower fuel poverty.

The communal\car sharing isn't going to be mandatory it's optional an alternative

How would they stop the cost cartel of energy suppliers we have at the moment from passing on the cost?

Also how would people avail of this improvement to housing stock and what would the lag be? It's already a nightmare availing of the SEAI grants.

Ah right I wasn't sure if it was going to be optional or not, but when it was said it was coming from a D4 type who loves to rent cars every once in a while when it's needed.

Calhoun

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

If they do ok they'll be gone in the next election you needn't worry, no one will vote for them after the next crash. I wonder if that tool Michael Fitzmaurice will get voted in again.

If he plays it right he will, quite easy in rural Ireland to turn the greens into the bogeyman combine that with FG under leo not seen to be serving rural areas and it makes it easier for the local poor mouth to get in.

_Brian

Geuze wrote: »

Why do people associate the GP with higher taxes?

Every left-wing party will increase taxes:

SF
SD
Labour

Yes, the GP will increase the carbon tax, as you'd expect, which is a good idea.

SF plan cuts to pension tax reliefs, etc., etc.

Oh I do associate the whole left as increased taxes, but in fairness I mentioned the greens specifically because I think they will have a fighting chance of being the junior partner in the next government.

I’d never vote for a left leaning party.