Being detained at luas (by private security)

Treppen

General question.
Passenger gets off luas and is followed by security who demand to see ticket.
Guy says he's in public area and they can call the cops if they like. (Says he has a ticket but they've no right to put a finger on him they should have asked for but while he was on the luas)

Guy goes to walk off and security jump on him and demand ticket (on public footpath).

Does he have a case for assault/excessive force... If
A. He had a ticket
b. He didn't have a ticket.
C. He had one then lost it and couldn't produce it in court.

This is not an actual scenario btw so please don't be telling me to get a solicitor. Discussion only .

Marcusm

€600 fine but I believe the power of arrest vests solely in a member of AGS.

Gatling

They can stop you on the platform if I remember correctly (covered by bylaws ?)

Scenario suggests passagener didn't have a ticket with the response given

randomchild

As far as I recall they have no power to detain you on a no-ticket, or to force you to corroborate the details you give them for the fine paperwork.

Irishphotodesk

Treppen wrote: »

General question.
Passenger gets off luas and is followed by security who demand to see ticket.
Guy says he's in public area and they can call the cops if they like. (Says he has a ticket but they've no right to put a finger on him they should have asked for but while he was on the luas)

Guy goes to walk off and security jump on him and demand ticket (on public footpath).

Does he have a case for assault/excessive force... If
A. He had a ticket
b. He didn't have a ticket.
C. He had one then lost it and couldn't produce it in court.

This is not an actual scenario btw so please don't be telling me to get a solicitor. Discussion only .

If my recollection is correct the platform area is private property, owned by owners of the Luas.

However, I do believe that they can request to see ticket but cannot impede path or falsely imprison or assault a person.

If the ticket holder has a ticket they are obliged to produce it when requested (subject to confirmation....pretty sure its in the terms and conditions on Luas website)

If the matter gets before the civil court, it would probably result in a payout of about 20k

impega1

it would seem according to this article that only members of AGS can check/query/detain a member of public once they are off the LUAS

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/what-you-never-knew-about-your-luas-ticket-34869545.html

CIARAN_BOYLE

According to the bye laws they can check tickets on the platform but not on the public street.

Thoie

Surely the case for excessive force is independent of whether or not he had a ticket?

Either the force was excessive or not - they jumped our hypothetical man.

The having/not having a ticket is a separate issue, where b and c have the same outcome (a fine).

The force they used isn't "worse" if he had a valid ticket.

Thoie

Thoie wrote: »

Surely the case for excessive force is independent of whether or not he had a ticket?

Either the force was excessive or not - they jumped our hypothetical man.

The having/not having a ticket is a separate issue, where b and c have the same outcome (a fine).

The force they used isn't "worse" if he had a valid ticket.

What is excessive force in this situation though. I mean, i'd imagine a kick in the face might be over the top, but preventing someone from leaving the area, and going as far as having to take them to the ground if they put up a fight, seems reasonable to me.

Mod
With great respect, take legal advice on that POV

Conall Cernach

Is the "Jump on him" meant to be taken literally? If it is then they obviously have no right to do that. But it is not right to say that "they've no right to put a finger on him" as you can touch people without it being considered assault. They can tap you on the shoulder to get your attention etc. It's not always advisable however as you will always get chancers claiming assault.

The pigeon man

Whilst they have a right to ask you to produce a ticket, they have no right to apply a force to you or impede your movement unless they suspect you of committing an arrestable offence.

Claw Hammer

The pigeon man wrote: »

Whilst they have a right to ask you to produce a ticket, they have no right to apply a force to you or impede your movement unless they suspect you of committing an arrestable offence.

They have no right to arrest on suspicion alone. In the case of an non garda or other person allowed by law to arrest, there must have been an offence committed and the person must be in the act of committing the offence when arrested.

Treppen

Claw Hammer wrote: »

They have no right to arrest on suspicion alone. In the case of an non garda or other person allowed by law to arrest, there must have been an offence committed and the person must be in the act of committing the offence when arrested.

Thanks for all he replies so far (I didn't get any notifications so didn't reply).

So leaving the 'assault' or 'excessive force' aside: would a security guard be out of bounds if they 'detained' you on public footpath (forcing you to the ground, knee on the back until guards arrived) on the grounds that you had no ticket?

again, this is a hypothetical situation. Although there are a few videos out there with people being detained ( but on the luas boarding area).

BENDYBINN

Surely, if you don’t produce a ticket when asked they have a right to detain you.....suspicion doesn’t come into it.

FishOnABike

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Surely, if you don’t produce a ticket when asked they have a right to detain you.....suspicion doesn’t come into it.

If you're on a public footpath you don't have to have a ticket.

GM228

Claw Hammer wrote: »

They have no right to arrest on suspicion alone. In the case of an non garda or other person allowed by law to arrest, there must have been an offence committed and the person must be in the act of committing the offence when arrested.

This is incorrect, authorised officers on the LUAS rrequire reasonable suspicion, in circumstances where the authorised officer considers it to be justified, they can arrest a person without warrant.

Here's a thread on the issue where I outlined the relevant laws:-

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057620079

BENDYBINN

FishOnABike wrote: »

If you're on a public footpath you don't have to have a ticket.

Even if you have just exited the train?

GM228

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Even if you have just exited the train?

Depends on how far you go, read the thread I linked.

Esse85

Treppen wrote: »

Thanks for all he replies so far (I didn't get any notifications so didn't reply).

So leaving the 'assault' or 'excessive force' aside: would a security guard be out of bounds if they 'detained' you on public footpath (forcing you to the ground, knee on the back until guards arrived) on the grounds that you had no ticket?

again, this is a hypothetical situation. Although there are a few videos out there with people being detained ( but on the luas boarding area).

Well if you stole goods from a shop, walked out with it and the security guard followed you, that's all they are allowed to do, follow you and call AGS
They cannot touch you or put you to the ground and detain you, that's assault.

Being physically touched or detained by Luas security for not having a ticket seems completely OTT, I mean what's the monotary value here, a couple of euro?

GM228

Esse85 wrote: »

Well if you stole goods from a shop, walked out with it and the security guard followed you, that's all they are allowed to do, follow you and call AGS
They cannot touch you or put you to the ground and detain you, that's assault.

Being physically touched or detained by Luas security for not having a ticket seems completely OTT, I mean what's the monotary value here, a couple of euro?

Theft is what is known as an "arrestable offence" (which means it carries a potential 5 year+ sentence), any person may arrest without warrant, with reasonable cause, anyone they suspect to be in the act of committing an arrestable offence or suspected to be guilty of an arrestable offence.

TheBoyConor

Deleted User wrote: »

What is excessive force in this situation though. I mean, i'd imagine a kick in the face might be over the top, but preventing someone from leaving the area, and going as far as having to take them to the ground if they put up a fight, seems reasonable to me.

Mod
With great respect, take legal advice on that POV

For a ticket worth a few euros it is an extreme OTT reaction that could leave Transdev in the hole for many tens of thousands of euros and negative publicity.
yes, it may be theft and an arrrestable offence so the security could legally arrest them but, jesus, for the sake a the price of a Luas ticket and the risk of it going wrong and being sued, it really isn't a wise move.
Rather than suing over the arrest itself, they might be suing security over excessive force/assault and that is a much greyer area and they are likely to get a payout on it.

Physical force is only justified when someone is a danger to others or themselves or if they are causing serious damage to property. Otherwise, let them at it and call the Gardai.

EDIT: Stealing a luas fare is hardly an offence that could warrant up to 5 years imprisonment, so an arrest by secuirty is not possible.

GM228

TheBoyConor wrote: »

For a ticket worth a few euros it is an extreme OTT reaction that could leave Transdev in the hole for many tens of thousands of euros and negative publicity.
yes, it may be theft and an arrrestable offence so the security could legally arrest them but, jesus, for the sake a the price of a Luas ticket and the risk of it going wrong and being sued, it really isn't a wise move.
Rather than suing over the arrest itself, they might be suing security over excessive force/assault and that is a much greyer area and they are likely to get a payout on it.

Physical force is only justified when someone is a danger to others or themselves or if they are causing serious damage to property. Otherwise, let them at it and call the Gardai.

EDIT: Stealing a luas fare is hardly an offence that could warrant up to 5 years imprisonment, so an arrest by secuirty is not possible.

The 5 year "arrestable offence" rule does not apply, they don't prejudice any power of arrest conferred by law, and the law allows them a power of arrest as I outlined in the linked thread.

GM228

For anyone interested here's a thread I created a few years ago discussing various powers of arrest, it details the "arrestable offences" provisions and all who enjoy powers of arrest, no doubt there may be a few surprises.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057621367

Treppen

GM228 wrote: »

For anyone interested here's a thread I created a few years ago discussing various powers of arrest, it details the "arrestable offences" provisions and all who enjoy powers of arrest, no doubt there may be a few surprises.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057621367

Is refusing to show a ticket after disembarking a luas an arrestable offence?

GM228

Treppen wrote: »

Is refusing to show a ticket after disembarking a luas an arrestable offence?

No it's not an arrestable offence, but arrestable offences don't come into play in such a scenario.

Note: an "arrestable offence" and an offence which confers a power of arrest are not the same, note what I already pointed out:-

GM228 wrote: »

The 5 year "arrestable offence" rule does not apply, they don't prejudice any power of arrest conferred by law, and the law allows them a power of arrest as I outlined in the linked thread.

In other words anyone can arrest when there is an arrestable offence, or otherwise for specific people in specific scenarios where statute provides (this covers non arrestable offence situations like being discussed).

Statute provides that an authorised person of the LUAS can arrest when they feel it is reasonably justified in such a situation.

AndrewTW

Luas Security nor Revenue Officers can detain a person for a ticket violation but under the new legislation, the Luas alongside TFI is implementing a new role soon which will grant more powers to qualified personal called Authorized Officers this new role will have the power to detain & hold passengers similar to warrant officers inside Irish Rail. Now it's been some time since I worked there but from what I heard interviews have been held for these roles and training will commence soon.

Wow! GM goes through it thoroughly but yet you decided to resurrect the thread to make an incorrect statement

AndrewTW

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Wow! GM goes through it thoroughly but yet you decided to resurrect the thread to make an incorrect statement

Which part is incorrect? Because I worked there I know what I could and couldn't do, and I know that this year new legislation will be established for Authroized Officers. and I am 100% sure that I could not stop and hold a passenger for not producing a ticket that is why we held operation with Gardai where you would have two security two rpo and two gardai. Only the gardai could detain and search passengers for ticket violations. If a passenger refused to show a ticket we could hold a tram and call for the gardai we were told not to a remove passengers from services unless we could remove them with communication or unless others where in direct danger. Luas Security and RPO had no special permission or powers but this year that will change.

AndrewTW

AndrewTW wrote: »

Which part in incorrect?

Read the thread.

AndrewTW

Passenger gets off luas and is followed by security who demand to see ticket.
''Say no keep walking''

Guy says he's in a public area and they can call the cops if they like. (Says he has a ticket but they've no right to put a finger on him they should have asked for but while he was on the luas)
''Correct Luas Secuirty have no right'' And would be advised by control to not hold this passenger.

Guy goes to walk off and security jump on him and demand ticket (on public footpath).
''Thats assault''

I have read the tread Luas Security cannot detain a person unless a direct danger is posed the OP would be laughing the whole way to the bank.

I have been in these situation with non paying or passenger not displaying tickets we are advised by our management to not get involved even more so if they are no longer on the platform.

AndrewTW

AndrewTW wrote: »

Passenger gets off luas and is followed by security who demand to see ticket.
''Say no keep walking''

Guy says he's in a public area and they can call the cops if they like. (Says he has a ticket but they've no right to put a finger on him they should have asked for but while he was on the luas)
''Correct Luas Secuirty have no right'' And would be advised by control to not hold this passenger.

Guy goes to walk off and security jump on him and demand ticket (on public footpath).
''Thats assault''

I have read the tread Luas Security cannot detain a person unless a direct danger is posed the OP would be laughing the whole way to the bank.

I have been in these situation with non paying or passenger not displaying tickets we are advised by our management to not get involved even more so if they are no longer on the platform.

Read the legal parts. Luas control don't make the law and gm has run through it in detail. What your manager suggests doesn't mean you have no legal right