Builder disappeared

gark

Looking for some advice or any ideas..

My builder disappeared, and I'm unable to reach him or anyone in the company since Christmas...

I signed the contract in May, the scope was extension +porch + insulation + renovation (turn key).
Workers showed up a month later, but then they kept disappearing for weeks at times.
Builder's estimate was 10-12 weeks for this job, and it's still not done: no porch, no heating system, no extension door, no kitchen/bathroom.

Back in the summer the subcontractor who was building the extension walked away as he didn't get paid.

A week ago the electrician called me saying he will probably walk away as well, he is owed over 8k at this stage...He was also told by someone in the company, that they are planning to close down this company and start another one..

My guess now is that he never pays anyone, that would explain why workers disappear for weeks, and it's always new people showing up after that..

They have the phone number of the 2 directors and the construction manager on their website. I keep calling them without any luck.

Interestingly I got a text from one of the director's last week saying he was out with the flu, but he will come back to me this week. This didn't happen.
Also we were supposed to meet after Christmas to discuss sanitary ware for the bathroom, but he cancelled.

The company was set up at the end of 2015, can't really imagine how they could have survived this long with this attitude.

At this stage I have paid 95% (plastering complete was the last stage).

Not sure what the next step could be.. can I claim against their insurance?

I guess if they went bust, I will have to accept that the money is gone.. and I will have to find another builder to finish the works?

awec

Ouch. Best of luck to you OP! What state have they left it in?

forgottenhills

gark wrote: »

Looking for some advice or any ideas..

My builder disappeared, and I'm unable to reach him or anyone in the company since Christmas...

I signed the contract in May, the scope was extension +porch + insulation + renovation (turn key).
Workers showed up a month later, but then they kept disappearing for weeks at times.
Builder's estimate was 10-12 weeks for this job, and it's still not done: no porch, no heating system, no extension door, no kitchen/bathroom.

Back in the summer the subcontractor who was building the extension walked away as he didn't get paid.

A week ago the electrician called me saying he will probably walk away as well, he is owed over 8k at this stage...He was also told by someone in the company, that they are planning to close down this company and start another one..

My guess now is that he never pays anyone, that would explain why workers disappear for weeks, and it's always new people showing up after that..

They have the phone number of the 2 directors and the construction manager on their website. I keep calling them without any luck.

Interestingly I got a text from one of the director's last week saying he was out with the flu, but he will come back to me this week. This didn't happen.
Also we were supposed to meet after Christmas to discuss sanitary ware for the bathroom, but he cancelled.

The company was set up at the end of 2015, can't really imagine how they could have survived this long with this attitude.

At this stage I have paid 95% (plastering complete was the last stage).

Not sure what the next step could be.. can I claim against their insurance?

I guess if they went bust, I will have to accept that the money is gone.. and I will have to find another builder to finish the works?

I have great sympathy for your situation but why, oh why, oh why would you pay anyone 95% of the final sum agreed for completion when the agreed project seems to be nowhere near 95% complete?

Unfortunately trying to get recourse through the courts is a very lengthy and expensive business with an unknown outcome particularly if you are pursuing a company. Do you have any burly relatives who would be willing to doorstep these guys until some recompense is forthcoming?

Casati

forgottenhills wrote: »

I have great sympathy for your situation but why, oh why, oh why would you pay anyone 95% of the final sum agreed for completion when the agreed project seems to be nowhere near 95% complete?

Unfortunately trying to get recourse through the courts is a very lengthy and expensive business with an unknown outcome particularly if you are pursuing a company. Do you have any burly relatives who would be willing to doorstep these guys until some recompense is forthcoming?

It’s too easy for companies like this to bully money out of people by requesting deposits up front on the basis that it’s a standard in the industry when good tradesmen will not expect this.

Your resource is to go legal - get another builder to quote to finish the works and then claim this amount off the full cost less what you’ve already paid. This could be a long road.

gark

awec wrote: »

Ouch. Best of luck to you OP! What state have they left it in?

The pipes for the underfloor heating are down and concrete is poured over it.
I have a temporary toilet in the bathroom, but nothing else.
No kitchen. No extension door. No porch. No heating system. A huge pile of rubbish on the front yard, they didn't even use a skip.

gark

forgottenhills wrote: »

I have great sympathy for your situation but why, oh why, oh why would you pay anyone 95% of the final sum agreed for completion when the agreed project seems to be nowhere near 95% complete?

Unfortunately trying to get recourse through the courts is a very lengthy and expensive business with an unknown outcome particularly if you are pursuing a company. Do you have any burly relatives who would be willing to doorstep these guys until some recompense is forthcoming?

The last 2 stages were "ready for plaster (20%)" and "plastering complete (20%)".
No relatives unfortunately.
I'm afraid by the time the court case is closed the company will have gone bust, and then all the legal costs were just a waste of money...

awec

gark wrote: »

The pipes for the underfloor heating are down and concrete is poured over it.
I have a temporary toilet in the bathroom, but nothing else.
No kitchen. No extension door. No porch. No heating system. A huge pile of rubbish on the front yard, they didn't even use a skip.

I'm not following. You're saying the last stage was plastering complete. Have they finished the block work etc?

You've paid 95% so just trying to understand how far off completion you are. When you say "no porch", do you literally mean they haven't done a single thing with the porch?

gark

awec wrote: »

I'm not following. You're saying the last stage was plastering complete.

Have they finished the block work etc?

That was the last staged payment. There is 5% left for everything else.

Yes, the extension is completely built, only the door is missing, and the electric works and the insulation.

The building of the porch hasn't started yet though - yes they haven't done a single thing.
That part of the work was supposed to be done in January - that's what they said in December.

Casati

gark wrote: »

That was the last staged payment. There is 5% left for everything else.

Yes, the extension is completely built, only the door is missing, and the electric works and the insulation.

The building of the porch hasn't started yet though - yes they haven't done a single thing.
That part of the work was supposed to be done in January - that's what they said in December.

Sounds like a lot of work left. I would go after them legally, directors of companies have personal accountability now for their actions running companies

con747

Did you check the credentials and insurance details of the building company before signing contracts?

Effects

gark wrote: »

Yes, the extension is completely built, only the door is missing, and the electric works and the insulation.

How is it being insulated? And when you electric works aren't done, do you mean nothing at all, or just second fix isn't finished?

the_pen_turner

Casati wrote: »

It’s too easy for companies like this to bully money out of people by requesting deposits up front on the basis that it’s a standard in the industry when good tradesmen will not expect this.

Your resource is to go legal - get another builder to quote to finish the works and then claim this amount off the full cost less what you’ve already paid. This could be a long road.

You wrong about the deposits.
A lot of the good guys are getting deposits now dew to cowbiw customers. I hear it regularly from guys on site that they would love to start doing it but are too afraid it will cost them work

There will always be conmen out there. They move from company to company leaving a trail of debt and un paid subbies behind them they are not just small operations doing it. Some if the big guys do it too.

Not sure what to say to the op . I would try to get them back to make it watertight and tidy up at least for now. Then hope for morw

gark

Casati wrote: »

Sounds like a lot of work left. I would go after them legally, directors of companies have personal accountability now for their actions running companies

Interesting! Does it mean that even if the company goes bankrupt, I can get compensated for damages/unfinished work by the directors?

gark

Effects wrote: »

How is it being insulated? And when you electric works aren't done, do you mean nothing at all, or just second fix isn't finished?

The plan is to have cavity wall insulation for the extension and external insulation for the porch and rest of the house.

Well, first fix is more or less finished I think - one of the newly built walls is not cabled though. Plus they turned off electricity in one part of the house, because someone touched a wall with wet hands and he got an electric shock.

gark

the_pen_turner wrote: »

You wrong about the deposits.
A lot of the good guys are getting deposits now dew to cowbiw customers. I hear it regularly from guys on site that they would love to start doing it but are too afraid it will cost them work

There will always be conmen out there. They move from company to company leaving a trail of debt and un paid subbies behind them they are not just small operations doing it. Some if the big guys do it too.

Not sure what to say to the op . I would try to get them back to make it watertight and tidy up at least for now. Then hope for morw

The put some wood panels where the extension door will be, it is kind of watertight now- some of the paint in an upstairs room peeled off though - they said it's probably a cold bridge, not a leak.

I would love to get them back, but they simply don't pick up the phone...I tried to call from many different numbers.

awec

gark wrote: »

The plan is to have cavity wall insulation for the extension and external insulation for the porch and rest of the house.

Well, first fix is more or less finished I think - one of the newly built walls is not cabled though. Plus they turned off electricity in one part of the house, because someone touched a wall with wet hands and he got an electric shock.

What? :pac:

Millionaire only not

It works both ways some time the builders meet the bad customer!
I’m always fascinated how people manage to find the dodges, plenty honest hard working people in every town but still Choose the new cowboys in town !
I feel sorry for u op , hopefully they might come back pressure by calling and phone calls
Legal is last route it can put there back up and make it worse fr u !

con747

gark wrote: »

Interesting! Does it mean that even if the company goes bankrupt, I can get compensated for damages/unfinished work by the directors?

10. Fraudulent or Reckless Trading

Directors should be aware of the fact that pursuant to Section 297A of the Companies Act, 1963 as inserted by the Companies Act, 1990, that if in the course of a winding-up or liquidation of a company, it appears that a director was knowingly a party "to the carrying on of any business of the company in a reckless manner", or was knowingly a party to the carrying on of any business of the company "with intent to defraud creditors of the company or creditors of any other person or for any fraudulent purposes, the Court is at liberty to make such a director personally liable without any limitation of liability for all or any part of the debts or liabilities of the company". Not sure if any use to you.

AndrewJRenko

con747 wrote: »

10. Fraudulent or Reckless Trading

Directors should be aware of the fact that pursuant to Section 297A of the Companies Act, 1963 as inserted by the Companies Act, 1990, that if in the course of a winding-up or liquidation of a company, it appears that a director was knowingly a party "to the carrying on of any business of the company in a reckless manner", or was knowingly a party to the carrying on of any business of the company "with intent to defraud creditors of the company or creditors of any other person or for any fraudulent purposes, the Court is at liberty to make such a director personally liable without any limitation of liability for all or any part of the debts or liabilities of the company". Not sure if any use to you.

Even if they were to make a director personally liable, it is very, very hard to enforce any such judgement unless the person has considerable assets.

DOCARCH

OP, what sort of sum of money is involved? What was total agreed cost?

con747

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Even if they were to make a director personally liable, it is very, very hard to enforce any such judgement unless the person has considerable assets.

Nearly impossible after all other debts would be settled first to banks and suppliers. That is only in the case of the builder closing down otherwise depending on monies involved small claims court. Again another process that is not certain to regain any monies owed.

Casati

the_pen_turner wrote: »

You wrong about the deposits.
A lot of the good guys are getting deposits now dew to cowbiw customers. I hear it regularly from guys on site that they would love to start doing it but are too afraid it will cost them work

There will always be conmen out there. They move from company to company leaving a trail of debt and un paid subbies behind them they are not just small operations doing it. Some if the big guys do it too.

Not sure what to say to the op . I would try to get them back to make it watertight and tidy up at least for now. Then hope for morw

Yeah maybe I’m wrong - I must have been using cowboy tradesmen building my own houses over the years as not one of them requested any deposit, (and indeed I ended up chasing most of them to make final payment after they completed the work.)

the_pen_turner

Casati wrote: »

Yeah maybe I’m wrong - I must have been using cowboy tradesmen building my own houses over the years as not one of them requested any deposit, (and indeed I ended up chasing most of them to make final payment after they completed the work.)

deposits are only now starting to become a thing with the everyday trades.
im not saying you are a cowboy if you dont do it (that would include myself as i cant ) . im pointing out that your not a cowboy for getting a deposit. infact your more likely to find a good tradesman wanting a deposit that a cowboy wanting it.

con747

the_pen_turner wrote: »

deposits are only now starting to become a thing with the everyday trades.
im not saying you are a cowboy if you dont do it (that would include myself as i cant ) . im pointing out that your not a cowboy for getting a deposit. infact your more likely to find a good tradesman wanting a deposit that a cowboy wanting it.

Have to disagree i'm afraid. I have had more builders than I can count on numerous small to big projects and each and every one of them had a staged payment as work commences. Most if not all asked for some small deposit before starting work so they knew you were not just getting quotes to get a better deal elsewhere.

the_pen_turner

con747 wrote: »

Have to disagree i'm afraid. I have had more builders than I can count on numerous small to big projects and each and every one of them had a staged payment as work commences. Most if not all asked for some small deposit before starting work so they knew you were not just getting quotes to get a better deal elsewhere.

i see how you disagree. the rest of your post agrees with me that deposits are regularly taken by trades.

gark

DOCARCH wrote: »

OP, what sort of sum of money is involved? What was total agreed cost?

Total 100k

con747

gark wrote: »

Total 100k

If the job is 95% finished you could go to the small claims court to try get the €5000.00 back. It might be an option if you cannot get him to finish the work.

gark

con747 wrote: »

If the job is 95% finished you could go to the small claims court to try get the €5000.00 back. It might be an option if you cannot get him to finish the work.

Unfortunately it's the other way around.
I paid 95% of this 100k already.
The job is really far from being 95% finished...

con747

Is it a registered building company with insurance?

gark

con747 wrote: »

Is it a registered building company with insurance?

Yes.
I wonder if their insurance covers this kind of case?
It seems to cover damages..

Casati

gark wrote: »

Yes.
I wonder if their insurance covers this kind of case?
It seems to cover damages..

This is substantial amounts of money involved so I would advise the OP to get legal advice of this. I would not presume the builder has no assets nor presume their company will simply fold. Yes this could take time in court but the amounts are v high

Builders are not above the law

BryanF

OP if your considering going the legal route, suggest you don’t give away too much on a public forum. Perhaps start with getting a QS to inspect and value the works complete, and review any paperwork associated.

Effects

gark wrote: »

The plan is to have cavity wall insulation for the extension and external insulation for the porch and rest of the house.

Sounds a bit odd that they didn't insulate the cavity when they were building the wall.

Well, first fix is more or less finished I think - one of the newly built walls is not cabled though.

Is the wall plastered then, or just block built so far?

forgottenhills

Casati wrote: »

This is substantial amounts of money involved so I would advise the OP to get legal advice of this. I would not presume the builder has no assets nor presume their company will simply fold. Yes this could take time in court but the amounts are v high

Builders are not above the law

Builders are not above the law but law is very expensive in this country.

To go down the law route:

1. The OP will need to engage a QS or other builder or architect to assess the state of works done, whether the work done so far is satisfactory and how much is left to do out of the original contract. And by the way other builders don't like coming into these messy situations.

2. The OP will then have a spend a couple of thousand with a solicitor to pursue the case and if it has to go to the High Court then will have to pay a barrister many thousands to take the case.

3. Even if you win the case you may find that you have a judgement against a company and /or directors with no assets.

So very expensive, unknown outcome and process could take years.

My first port of call would be to personally visit the builder at his house or where he drinks or wherever he goes out publicly and make a nuisance of yourself until he agrees to give money back or complete the work.

lawred2

gark wrote: »

Unfortunately it's the other way around.
I paid 95% of this 100k already.
The job is really far from being 95% finished...

Christ. Where did you find this guy? Did he come recommended? Or was he the only one who answered?

AndrewJRenko

forgottenhills wrote: »

My first port of call would be to personally visit the builder at his house or where he drinks or wherever he goes out publicly and make a nuisance of yourself until he agrees to give money back or complete the work.

Or maybe get a friend to ring him to ask him to come out and give a quotation for a similar kind of job, and OP will be the one to answer the door to him when he calls.

con747

gark wrote: »

Looking for some advice or any ideas..

My builder disappeared, and I'm unable to reach him or anyone in the company since Christmas...

I signed the contract in May, the scope was extension +porch + insulation + renovation (turn key).
Workers showed up a month later, but then they kept disappearing for weeks at times.
Builder's estimate was 10-12 weeks for this job, and it's still not done: no porch, no heating system, no extension door, no kitchen/bathroom.

Back in the summer the subcontractor who was building the extension walked away as he didn't get paid.

A week ago the electrician called me saying he will probably walk away as well, he is owed over 8k at this stage...He was also told by someone in the company, that they are planning to close down this company and start another one..

My guess now is that he never pays anyone, that would explain why workers disappear for weeks, and it's always new people showing up after that..

They have the phone number of the 2 directors and the construction manager on their website. I keep calling them without any luck.

Interestingly I got a text from one of the director's last week saying he was out with the flu, but he will come back to me this week. This didn't happen.
Also we were supposed to meet after Christmas to discuss sanitary ware for the bathroom, but he cancelled.

The company was set up at the end of 2015, can't really imagine how they could have survived this long with this attitude.

At this stage I have paid 95% (plastering complete was the last stage).

Not sure what the next step could be.. can I claim against their insurance?

I guess if they went bust, I will have to accept that the money is gone.. and I will have to find another builder to finish the works?

Op, you have a signed contract which I would think is legally binding. Go and see a solicitor to find out your chance of getting either your money back or work finished. Most if not all solicitors will give a first consultation free, I would do this asap.

gark

Effects wrote: »

Sounds a bit odd that they didn't insulate the cavity when they were building the wall.



Is the wall plastered then, or just block built so far?

They said they will inject the insulation at a later stage.
Yes the walls are plastered at this stage.

gark

lawred2 wrote: »

Christ. Where did you find this guy? Did he come recommended? Or was he the only one who answered?

-snip-
I called some of the references, and all seemed ok.
There were a couple of other quotes.

gark

forgottenhills wrote: »

Builders are not above the law but law is very expensive in this country.

To go down the law route:

1. The OP will need to engage a QS or other builder or architect to assess the state of works done, whether the work done so far is satisfactory and how much is left to do out of the original contract. And by the way other builders don't like coming into these messy situations.

2. The OP will then have a spend a couple of thousand with a solicitor to pursue the case and if it has to go to the High Court then will have to pay a barrister many thousands to take the case.

3. Even if you win the case you may find that you have a judgement against a company and /or directors with no assets.

So very expensive, unknown outcome and process could take years.

My first port of call would be to personally visit the builder at his house or where he drinks or wherever he goes out publicly and make a nuisance of yourself until he agrees to give money back or complete the work.

Unfortunately he lives far away from Dublin, and I don't know exactly where he lives.

gark

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Or maybe get a friend to ring him to ask him to come out and give a quotation for a similar kind of job, and OP will be the one to answer the door to him when he calls.

They don't pick up the phone any more. No matter who calls, I and my friend tried to call them from different phone numbers many times. One of the phone numbers also has the mailbox full (been trying to call since the beginning of Jan.)

forgottenhills

gark wrote: »

Unfortunately he lives far away from Dublin, and I don't know exactly where he lives.

You will just have to try and find him. Google could be your friend.

If you find out the area where he lives then visit the local post office, shops, builders suppliers or pubs and someone should know his address. Say you are delivering something to him and have lost his address and he is not answering the phone. You may have to get creative.

The good news is that if he lives in a rural area then people who do so are often very sensitive about their local reputation and if people start turning up in their locality asking questions about them and looking for money back then this might spur them into action.

I once was having difficulty getting a deposit back from a landlord who was retaining it for no good reason. I showed up at his home address and politely asked for the return of my deposit. His wife was there and I had the deposit cheque in the post the next day.

gark

forgottenhills wrote: »

You will just have to try and find him. Google could be your friend.

If you find out the area where he lives then visit the local post office, shops, builders suppliers or pubs and someone should know his address. Say you are delivering something to him and have lost his address and he is not answering the phone. You may have to get creative.

The good news is that if he lives in a rural area then people who do so are often very sensitive about their local reputation and if people start turning up in their locality asking questions about them and looking for money back then this might spur them into action.

I once was having difficulty getting a deposit back from a landlord who was retaining it for no good reason. I showed up at his home address and politely asked for the return of my deposit. His wife was there and I had the deposit cheque in the post the next day.

I found a planning application of him, and based on that he seems to live in Enniscrone.

It'q quite far from Dublin, but I wouldn't mind going there, just wondering does anyone think this is a good idea ?

Shaunoc

Great idea, live updates please

the_pen_turner

have you looked him up on cro . that will have the adress his business is registered at

Jurgen Klopp

Any halting site near you? A few quid to some entrepreneurs living there can bring excellent results in recovering stolen assets

ravendude

I would find where he lives. Pay a PI if need be, they have some tricks but you might be able 5o find it yourself, - sounds like you have a good lead with that planning application. Start calling to his house and be a pest. He needs to know you wont go away.
Talk to some debt collector agencies to "follow up" with him "regularly", there are a few around Dublin and elsewhere that are tough cookies that will lean on him.

forgottenhills

gark wrote: »

I found a planning application of him, and based on that he seems to live in Enniscrone.

It'q quite far from Dublin, but I wouldn't mind going there, just wondering does anyone think this is a good idea ?

Enniscrone is a long way from Dublin. Before I would go all that way I would maybe ring the local parish priest there, explain the situation and start off by saying that you are concerned that the builder may be ill. Priests tend to know stuff going on in their parish and may divulge some details in a case like this, particularly if you are a woman (a few tears on the phone wouldn't go amiss). If he states that yes, the builder lives there but he hasn't heard that the builder is ill then I would ask to confirm his address as you need to visit him to talk about finishing your house. I would also ask him if said builder has a reputation for leaving jobs half finished etc. Worth a shot to travel with some prior information. If you travel down and the builder doesn't answer his door don't be afraid to have a chat with his neighbours who may be able to fill you in. Everybody tends to know everyone else's business down the country whihc is useful sometimes! You may need to plan to call on him late evening and early morning if he is evasive. And of course it would be better to bring someone with you if possible.

ravendude

gark wrote: »

I found a planning application of him, and based on that he seems to live in Enniscrone.

It'q quite far from Dublin, but I wouldn't mind going there, just wondering does anyone think this is a good idea ?

Don't rule out that this might be a summer house or some side project he is doing, and maybe not his primary resdence.

forgottenhills

forgottenhills wrote: »

Enniscrone is a long way from Dublin. Before I would go all that way I would maybe ring the local parish priest there, explain the situation and start off by saying that you are concerned that the builder may be ill. Priests tend to know stuff going on in their parish and may divulge some details in a case like this, particularly if you are a woman (a few tears on the phone wouldn't go amiss). If he states that yes, the builder lives there but he hasn't heard that the builder is ill then I would ask to confirm his address as you need to visit him to talk about finishing your house. I would also ask him if said builder has a reputation for leaving jobs half finished etc. Worth a shot to travel with some prior information. If you travel down and the builder doesn't answer his door don't be afraid to have a chat with his neighbours who may be able to fill you in. Everybody tends to know everyone else's business down the country whihc is useful sometimes! You may need to plan to call on him late evening and early morning if he is evasive. And of course it would be better to bring someone with you if possible.

And there was me thinking the halting site idea was silly. Haha. :pac::D

forgottenhills

Deleted User wrote: »

And there was me thinking the halting site idea was silly. Haha. :pac::D

I have explained why i think the OP should try a few things before heading down the legal route as that is expensive, uncertain and could take months/years while a house remains unfinished. I also don't think that involving criminals in chasing down the builder is a great idea. And also remember that this isn't a case of chasing down a debt. The builder can even claim that the money paid over was due to him at that exact stage of the project as per the letter of the agreed contract. It was the contract that was faulty in having 95% of the money due before 95% of the deliverables were in place.

I have suggested doorstepping the builder and have suggested a few ideas to help do this. My idea may or may not work but costs little and is worth a shot in my view. Do you have any bright ideas for the OP that won't involve criminality or going down the legal route, which would have major drawbacks in the real world as I have pointed out?