Picard 1x01 - "Remembrance" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

PhiloCypher

Thus far I'm running into the same problem I had with the SW Sequel Trilogy in that I'm having a hard time buying the status quo they've established. I know we've seen dodgy Admirals a plenty between TNG and DS9 but I still have a hard time with the idea Starfleet/federation would abandon the Romulans to their fate because of what happened on Mars.

Now maybe future episodes will fill in needed context, but at the moment it just feels wrong. Previously each trek show would give context to the one that followed, but as we've jumped forward 20 years in the timeline we're left with considerable blanks to fill, either through clunky info dumps, or gulp, novel tie ins, neither of which are ideal.

Another problem I had was with the reporter gaslighting Picard in that interview. This has to be the first time the media have ever been referenced in Trek to my knowledge and they don't paint a flattering picture. The reporters repeated mantra "but they were our enemy" as Picard talks about saving the Romulans suggests there is an audience for that way of thinking on earth if not the federation. Which would be kinda sad. While we've certainly seen Starfleet Admirals voice those sort of sentiments, with even Kirk suggesting "let them die" with regards to the Klingons after Praxis, but it always felt like these were fringe ideas only held by cold warriors in the admiralty, not by the rank n file and certainly not by the citizenry.

Again we might get much needed context for this in future episodes, maybe 10 years that saw 2 Borg attacks, a war with the Klingons followed by one with the Dominion saw the once placid welcoming federation citizens to swing to the right. We'll see I guess.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

Set up nicely with the agent being transported after he was kicked over the railing.

Yeah, this happened almost immediately before the 'death' so stands to reason it was setting up the possibility of a last second transport.

ManOfMystery wrote: »

First episode was brilliant IMO. A real joy to see Picard back onscreen.

I noted that in the opening scene (Picard's dream sequence), Data laid down his 5 cards and each had 'Q' on it. Just a random coincidence or foreshadowing of a certain omnipotent deity perhaps pulling the strings? After all, he's been known to toy with Picard's dreams and dreamlike states before.

Q x 5 is as glaring a message you could see, I don't believe for a second that he won't make at least a cameo.

moonlighting_1 wrote: »

Got my vote. Really liked it.
Have a few questions. Watched it back in the days but my memory of events cant seem to remember overall what happened.
What old episodes / movies should one watch to jog the memory's.

When did data die?
When did that planet blow up? what was that all about
What happened to mars?
Was that a borg ship?

You forgot the most important question of all.....

When was Riker turned into a dog :pac:

PhiloCypher

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Another problem I had was with the reporter gaslighting Picard in that interview. This has to be the first time the media have ever been referenced in Trek to my knowledge and they don't paint a flattering picture. The reporters repeated mantra "but they were our enemy" as Picard talks about saving the Romulans suggests there is an audience for that way of thinking on earth if not the federation. Which would be kinda sad. While we've certainly seen Starfleet Admirals voice those sort of sentiments, with even Kirk suggesting "let them die" with regards to the Klingons after Praxis, but it always felt like these were fringe ideas only held by cold warriors in the admiralty, not by the rank n file and certainly not by the citizenry.

Jake was one, in DS9, for the Federation News Service
Reporters on the Enterprise B launch

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Federation_News_Service

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

The progressive thing is weird in this day and age because the topics haven't really changed since TNG but society has. It's still racism=bad, LGBT=normal people, war=do not do this cool thing. Most people, especially Star Trek fans, already agree with those things. So who are they preaching to?

Unless Star Trek wants to honestly look at philosophies or ideologies counter to the writers' personal beliefs, say libertarianism that's not a McNukes and child prostitute parody, there might be nowhere else to go.

The problem isn't "who are they preaching to?", it's "why are you raging against something intrinsic to the franchise". The issue is, to use the term of the day, toxicity with certain sectors who leverage YouTube and ilk to push this "last angry man" routine into a cottage industry

PhiloCypher

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Jake was one, in DS9, for the FNN
Reporters on the Enterprise B launch

Fair play I completely blanked on those.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

The problem isn't "who are they preaching to?", it's "why are you raging against something intrinsic to the franchise". The issue is, to use the term of the day, toxicity with certain sectors who leverage YouTube and ilk to push this "last angry man" routine into a cottage industry

I'm eye rolling not raging.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

I'm eye rolling not raging.

Eye roll or rage, I don't think you can term something as preaching when it that has literally been the series' speed since Day 0. Or indeed claim it has only been latterday Trek that is preaching.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Eye roll or rage, I don't think you can term something as preaching when it that has literally been the series' speed since Day 0. Or indeed claim it has only been latterday Trek that is preaching.

I'm not claiming it's only latterday Trek, I'm saying they're still preaching the same issues when they're just not that boundary pushing anymore. Basically they're preaching to the choir and the choir is "yeah, we get it, got anything new?" Or at least that's my view on it.

I would hope that Maddox is not a big bad, specifically as he shows a glimmer of growth at the end of "Measure" and Data is in regular contact with him afterwards.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

I'm not claiming it's only latterday Trek, I'm saying they're still preaching the same issues when they're just not that boundary pushing anymore. Basically they're preaching to the choir and the choir is "yeah, we get it, got anything new?" Or at least that's my view on it.

Right, though I don't see that TBH; what I do see - and has been borne out by occasional posters on this forum or a simple YouTube search - is that there is a cottage industry of Outrage Merchants who are forgetting or ignoring that history, and making hay screaming that Trek is politicised, SJW infected, or whatever. Similar to those screaming the Dr. Who is a woman, Star Wars is all Woke, etc. etc. This is pop culture in 2020, heavily factionalised with a distinct pushback against "politics".

Trek is structured as a Left Wing Utopia, so nowhere really to go; Iain M Banks is about the only creative I've seen to take that idea and push it into its furthest extreme, The Culture being the ultimate evolution of this "you do you" Utopian ideal

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Right, though I don't see that TBH; what I do see - and has been borne out by occasional posters on this forum or a simple YouTube search - is that there is a cottage industry of Outrage Merchants who are forgetting or ignoring that history, and making hay screaming that Trek is politicised, SJW infected, or whatever. Similar to those screaming the Dr. Who is a woman, Star Wars is all Woke, etc. etc. This is pop culture in 2020, heavily factionalised with a distinct pushback against "politics".

There's definitely two sides to that coin. The male tears, we took X from the neckbeard and changed it, etc types. I'm not implying you, or anyone here, have those views but let's not pretend one side exists in a vacuum.

pixelburp wrote: »

Trek is structured as a Left Wing Utopia, so nowhere really to go; Iain M Banks is about the only creative I've seen to take that idea and push it into its furthest extreme, The Culture being the ultimate evolution of this "you do you" Utopian ideal

So maybe it's time to take a serious look at other ideologies or philosophies as I suggested earlier. For all I know Picard, or even STD, could be headed in that direction but I doubt it.

Stark

pixelburp wrote:

Trek is structured as a Left Wing Utopia, so nowhere really to go; Iain M Banks is about the only creative I've seen to take that idea and push it into its furthest extreme, The Culture being the ultimate evolution of this "you do you" Utopian ideal

Things started getting interesting with DS9 imo.

TOS presented a utopia borne out of an idea that at some point between the 21st and 22nd centuries, man's nature fundamentally changed, 2001 Spade Odyssey style following first contact with the Vulcans and that fundamental change led to the end of all evils.

Despite the occasional "you haven't really changed" challenge from Q, TNG continued more or less in same vein depicting what was arguable the Federation's golden age. Even more plentifulness than TOS. The cramped original Enterprise was replaced with a space travelling luxury hotel complete with family quarters for instance.

DS9 was when that concept was really challenged and it started to show us that mankind's improved nature was down to better circumstances rather than a fundamental change in humanity itself. This meant that the fate of the Federation could be cyclical, just as current politics is cyclical. The Federation could be just as vulnerable to a slide into fascism as current Earth regimes. DS9 took some inspirations from Babylon 5 so you could see the influence here, although DS9 didn't go as far as B5. They never really took this to its fullest, with the war ending before things could really turn to ****.

I thought Discovery would further explore this when it introduced Lorca, a character who was able to thrive when the Federation was facing its darkest moment. Unfortunately the show pivoted too much for them to really explore this.

I think Picard is going to be the show that does explore the Federation going through a dark phase in response to a succession of devastating blows (the Dominion war, Borg threats, destruction of Mars, Romulan supernova destabilising the Alpha/Beta quadrants etc.). Look at the effect September 11th had on the mood in the US. Imagine what an effect the destruction of an entire planet, the one closest to Earth could have. And what better man to help it find its way back than Picard.

The news interview was blunt but it was meant to show us that this wasn't the Federation we saw 20 years ago.

ManOfMystery

Stark wrote: »

Despite the occasional "you haven't really changed" challenge from Q, TNG continued more or less in same vein depicting what was arguable the Federation's golden age. Even more plentifulness than TOS. The cramped original Enterprise was replaced with a space travelling luxury hotel complete with family quarters for instance.

It was a good few years after TNG ended that I actually realised the difference in scale between the ships.

AMKC

Evade wrote: »

The progressive thing is weird in this day and age because the topics haven't really changed since TNG but society has. It's still racism=bad, LGBT=normal people, war=do not do this cool thing. Most people, especially Star Trek fans, already agree with those things. So who are they preaching to?

Unless Star Trek wants to honestly look at philosophies or ideologies counter to the writers' personal beliefs, say libertarianism that's not a McNukes and child prostitute parody, there might be nowhere else to go.

So who are they preaching to?

To new fans maybe.

Evade wrote: »

I'm not claiming it's only latterday Trek, I'm saying they're still preaching the same issues when they're just not that boundary pushing anymore. Basically they're preaching to the choir and the choir is "yeah, we get it, got anything new?" Or at least that's my view on it.

They might not be boundary pushing anymore but a lot of them same issues are still there. There is still gay people especially in Countries that are not as open as ours like Russia, Countries in the Middle East EG: Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and a lot of African Countries that jail or even carry out death sentances if a person is gay. There is still lots of Trans people that are afraid to come out to there family and friends because they might be disowned or called freaks and because of that some commit suicide unfortunatly. Which is very sad.
So its still important that these issues are not forgotten about and this can be done as well as doing other issues that are as you but it boundary pushing.

Deleted User wrote: »

I would hope that Maddox is not a big bad, specifically as he shows a glimmer of growth at the end of "Measure" and Data is in regular contact with him afterwards.

I would also hope that is not the case and maybe he might have a story or two about Data. Maybe he had formed a good friendship with Data before he died.

Evade

AMKC wrote: »

They might not be boundary pushing anymore but a lot of them same issues are still there. There is still gay people especially in Countries that are not as open as ours like Russia, Countries in the Middle East EG: Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and a lot of African Countries that jail or even carry out death sentances if a person is gay. There is still lots of Trans people that are afraid to come out to there family and friends because they might be disowned or called freaks and because of that some commit suicide unfortunatly. Which is very sad.

This is a good point that I hadn't considered but it's also all the more reason to keep it subtle and allegorical. Any whiff of overt LGBT themes and most people in those countries won't get a chance to see it.

Stark

The same argument was applied to Uhura and being able to show Star Trek in Bible belt states.

Evade

Stark wrote: »

The same argument was applied to Uhura and being able to show Star Trek in Bible belt states.

But they did show Star Trek in those states.

IvySlayer

What has humanity achieved since Qs last appearance in All Good Things?

Wars, xenophobia and and a more isolated Federation..

AMKC

IvySlayer wrote: »

What has humanity achieved since Qs last appearance in All Good Things?

Wars, xenophobia and and a more isolated Federation..

Q would just love this so. He could say I told you so.

Then go I will leve ye to continue slowly destrying yourselfs.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

This is a good point that I hadn't considered but it's also all the more reason to keep it subtle and allegorical. Any whiff of overt LGBT themes and most people in those countries won't get a chance to see it.

Keeping it subtle IMO just ends up displeasing everyone, and can passively insult those you are trying to side with as it still "others" them. It's a difficult needle to thread and dancing around the subject can make you look feintly embarrassed to talk about it.

I'm thinking of the Fantastic Beasts sequel as a good example: where the script fell over itself trying to be "subtle" with Dumbledores homosexuality and avoiding open admission to a prior romantic relationship with the films antagonist. It was embarrassingly overwrought IMO, the dialogue stopping short of winking to the audience that Grindelwald was a "special friend", phrasing it every which way except the obvious one.

So I wonder if Discovery aired in (say) Russia, as of the things it did right, it showed a normal, functional and loving gay relationship - at least before the clone subplot. No drama, never preached to the audience as has been suggested. They were just there.

PhiloCypher

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I would hope that Maddox is not a big bad, specifically as he shows a glimmer of growth at the end of "Measure" and Data is in regular contact with him afterwards.

I imagine future episodes will see Picard and/or Dahj's surviving twin seeking Maddox out in a parallel to Data and Lore being drawn back to meet their maker Noonian Soong one last time.

ManOfMystery

IvySlayer wrote: »

What has humanity achieved since Qs last appearance in All Good Things?

Wars, xenophobia and and a more isolated Federation..

I looked up the lines from Q at the end of All Good Things.... ... and there's certainly a possibility that humanity's recent behaviour (which doesn't sound very positive going by what Picard said) has drawn him in again.

"You just don't get it, do you, Jean-Luc? The trial never ends. We wanted to see if you had the ability to expand your mind and your horizons. And for one brief moment, you did."

"When I realized the paradox."

"Exactly. For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you had never considered. That is the exploration that awaits you. Not mapping stars and studying nebulae, but charting the unknown possibilities of existence."

"Q, what is it that you're trying to tell me?"

Q leans in as if to whisper something to Picard, but then thinks better, and pulls back, smiling.

"You'll find out. In any case, I'll be watching. And if you're very lucky, I'll drop by to say hello from time to time. See you … out there.…"

Sleepy

Am I the only one who thought it was obvious that the Borg cube was being salvaged by the Romulans?

An abandoned / defeated Borg cube would have a huge amount of tech and raw materials which would be worth a fortune / could be used to rebuild a civilisation.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Keeping it subtle IMO just ends up displeasing everyone, and can passively insult those you are trying to side with as it still "others" them. It's a difficult needle to thread and dancing around the subject can make you look feintly embarrassed to talk about it.

There are only two options, make it overt to please the people that already accept it or make it subtle to try bring around those that don't. I know which of those I think would be better in the long run.

pixelburp wrote: »

I'm thinking of the Fantastic Beasts sequel as a good example: where the script fell over itself trying to be "subtle" with Dumbledores homosexuality and avoiding open admission to a prior romantic relationship with the films antagonist. It was embarrassingly overwrought IMO, the dialogue stopping short of winking to the audience that Grindelwald was a "special friend", phrasing it every which way except the obvious one.

Probably had more than a little to do with the Chinese market. Hollywood is very woke until there's money on the line.

pixelburp wrote: »

So I wonder if Discovery aired in (say) Russia, as of the things it did right, it showed a normal, functional and loving gay relationship - at least before the clone subplot. No drama, never preached to the audience as has been suggested. They were just there.

According to IMDB it did but whether it was censored or not I don't know.

silverharp

pixelburp wrote: »

To be fair, we haven't been talking tone, but the subtext that lies beneath the surface of every Trek series. Fair enough if the darker, more cynical take seen today isn't to your taste, but sticking to the subject of those who'd decry politics in Trek - The Orville is practically bursting at the seams with topical subjects, right there in the Text, nevermind SubText. Yet it appears to get a free pass by and large, whereas new-Trek gets dumped on by those with selective thinking or short memories. I don't know whether it's 'cos the superficial elements are frothier, or just that "hating new Trek" is the done thing for those with axes to grind.

I'm hoping that Picard's theme will be the Captain restoring some sense of character or conscience in the Federation, so in many respects we're possibly getting way ahead of ourselves parsing a whole season based on a Pilot episode that was simply setting the stage. I'd argue a "Wait and see" approach as to what part Picard & Friends have to play...

We'll see. I dunno, maybe I'm wasting my breath 'cos this circular argument keeps popping up over and over; Star Trek has always been politically charged. One may not like the politics that exist in the here and now, but it's simply continuing a trend that existed from Year 0 (albeit with less of the "Kirk tames the savages" plots you got fadó)

It can be topical , if anything The Orville does it more so , the Social media themed episode for example. It didn’t help that the EMH in Voyager had more heart than the blocks of wood that were most of the cast of STD. Maybe it just comes down to quality, if the stories and characters are good enough any political messaging is just along for the ride whereas in a bad show if all that sticks out is the political messaging, then its worse than just having a forgettable show.

The first 3 episodes are meant to be ok , its after that the executives are worried allegedly….. to be taken with a grain of salt.

FutureGuy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I would hope that Maddox is not a big bad, specifically as he shows a glimmer of growth at the end of "Measure" and Data is in regular contact with him afterwards.

I’ll be annoyed if he is a big bad. It would throw his progress in TNG out the window.

Evade

FutureGuy wrote: »

I’ll be annoyed if he is a big bad. It would throw his progress in TNG out the window.

I think it expands on his growth going from androids are just things to be tinkered with to synth rights terrorist.

seamus

I'd be nearly 100% certain that Dahj was intended as a messenger to Picard from Maddox. Why else would he have created her to match Data's painting, hidden her on earth as a human, given her a fake mother who tells her to go to Picard, and given her some "memories" from Data?

ManOfMystery

Sleepy wrote: »

Am I the only one who thought it was obvious that the Borg cube was being salvaged by the Romulans?

An abandoned / defeated Borg cube would have a huge amount of tech and raw materials which would be worth a fortune / could be used to rebuild a civilisation.

I thought it was obvious, it never occurred to me at all to speculate that they might have created it. Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.

The notion of an abandoned Borg cube is a bit of an enigma in itself. From what we've seen of the Borg so far, they don't feel fear or tend to retreat. Any encounters they haven't won have ended in the complete destruction of their vessels, asides from the obvious exception of First Contact where they launched a sphere to go back in time.

I'm curious as to what circumstances would have led to thousands of Borg either leaving or being forcibly removed from one of their cubes, but leaving much of the vessel behind.

Stark

Quite likely it's Hugh's cube. We know from "Descent", all the Borg on board had to abandon it as without a unified consciousness, they couldn't operate it.