Unicorn Hunters

JackTaylorFan

If you're not familiar with the term, it means a couple usually a curious "straight" couple (man and woman) looking for a third to spice up their lovelife.

It's something you inevitably come across on dating apps, less frequently in real life - though it does happen - as it did to me on a trip to Dublin at the beginning of the year.

It started off innocently enough: I got talking to a woman from London, whom I was speaking to in the smoking area of the hotel. She quickly turned the conversation to sexual orientation as I sat there finishing a smoke.

"So do you like girls or boys?"

Odd question at the best of times, but seeing as I was bored, staying there alone, and in a very talkative mood, I humoured her. She then told me she was bi but married to a man. I told her I was trans after another cigarette, to which she at least feigned surprise.

Lo and behold, she thought that the trans thing was "cool" - we're very popular in the club scenes of London, apparently. Yes, the fetishistic aspect was coming clear into view. That's when she introduced her husband... Yeah, after a while you get a sense of when people are basically creeping on you. I quickly made my exit after that. The whole thing just seemed inappropriate. Perhaps, I was reading too much into it, but then again, who starts a conversation by asking if you're attracted to boys or girls and proceeds to tell you their own orientation without solicitation unless there is something going on?

Anyways, the larger issue here, is unicorn hunters in general. As a single woman preyed upon as some kind of... well, unicorn, by couples just looking to kink up their sex-life (admittedly, mostly online) I find it repugnant. But this how these people treat others. As objects. As disposable. And I know from talking to some of my lesbian acquaintances that this is not just a problem for trans women.

Anyways, that's my take. If anyone else has experience of this kind of crap, you're welcome to share.

AllForIt

I have no problem with anyone spicing up their sex life any way they want by mutual consent and I'm surprised to read such 'christian values' type opinions on of all forums this one.

_Godot_

AllForIt wrote: »

I have no problem with anyone spicing up their sex life any way they want by mutual consent and I'm surprised to read such 'christian values' type opinions on of all forums this one.

It's been seen just as an object or 'thing' that's the problem.

JackTaylorFan

AllForIt wrote: »

I have no problem with anyone spicing up their sex life any way they want by mutual consent and I'm surprised to read such 'christian values' type opinions on of all forums this one.

This has nothing to do with Christian values, although my values are more aligned with my parent's values than the ones that people like this have or for that matter those that seem rife in the LGBT community. It's gross and fetishistic and these people prey on people like me. Lonely people who actually want a relationship and not to be used and abused.

I mean, imagine not wanting to be treated like a thing.

Annasopra

AllForIt wrote: »

I have no problem with anyone spicing up their sex life any way they want by mutual consent and I'm surprised to read such 'christian values' type opinions on of all forums this one.

Would you want lots of people making automatic conclusions about your propensity to engage in unusual sex practices solely based on your gender identity? Would you like to be considered some sort fetish object based solely on your gender identity?

AllForIt

You are all being hyper sensitive. OP was propositioned - so what? You are making a bit deal of it because of the niche-ness of the situation.

It's extraordinary that on the same forum where you have ppl advocating that the HSE provide PREP free of charge to people who are promiscuous - that all of a sudden you have a problem with ppl treating others as 'objects'. How hypocritical is that.

I would hardly call a 3 sum an unusual sexual practice either in the hetro or gay world. And again it's extraordinary that on this forum you would talk of this particular scenario as if it were some bizarre situation.

I would have no problem with anyone propositioning me for any reason - I may be interested and if not I'm free to walk away. I'd much rather ppl be interested in me and even assume I would be interested than the opposite.

All I see here is someone with a persecution complex and looking for the most trivial of examples to back it up.

JackTaylorFan

AllForIt wrote: »

You are all being hyper sensitive. OP was propositioned - so what? You are making a bit deal of it because of the niche-ness of the situation.

It's extraordinary that on the same forum where you have ppl advocating that the HSE provide PREP free of charge to people who are promiscuous - that all of a sudden you have a problem with ppl treating others as 'objects'. How hypocritical is that.

I would hardly call a 3 sum an unusual sexual practice either in the hetro or gay world. And again it's extraordinary that on this forum you would talk of this particular scenario as if it were some bizarre situation.

I would have no problem with anyone propositioning me for any reason - I may be interested and if not I'm free to walk away. I'd much rather ppl be interested in me and even assume I would be interested than the opposite.

All I see here is someone with a persecution complex and looking for the most trivial of examples to back it up.

You clearly don't understand the experience of a trans woman, or the point of this post

JackTaylorFan

To be clear, it's more than the proposition of sex. It's a judgement of character based on stereotypes. It's fetishism.

JackTaylorFan

AllForIt wrote: »

It's extraordinary that on the same forum where you have ppl advocating that the HSE provide PREP free of charge to people who are promiscuous - that all of a sudden you have a problem with ppl treating others as 'objects'. How hypocritical is that.

This is exactly why I avoid the LGBT+ community, to be honest. You're judged if you're not into sleeping around or being seen as "sex positive" - whatever the **** that means

2xj3hplqgsbkym

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

To be clear, it's more than the proposition of sex. It's a judgement of character based on stereotypes. It's fetishism.

She wasn’t even propositioned, maybe chatted up

JackTaylorFan

Lillian Nutritious Carp wrote: »

She wasn’t even propositioned, maybe chatted up

Again, missing the point. That was a preamble

JupiterKid

There is a lot of anger, frustration, outrage and projecting on this thread - and on this forum generally - coupled with a dollop of bending over backwards political correctness.

I suspect this environment keeps many people away from this forum.

I have been in threesomes before (with two other gay men) and I thoroughly enjoyed the experience - and I have been propositioned a number of times by gay guys for threesomes before. If anything, I would consider it a compliment to be propositioned, and not an insult. If I am propositioned and am not interesed, I simply tell them so politely and move on. As I am currently in a LTR I'm out of the market for threesomes at present.

Some people seem to think any sort of interaction with another human being has to be negative, as everyone is out to get them...

Annasopra

AllForIt wrote: »

You are all being hyper sensitive. OP was propositioned - so what? You are making a bit deal of it because of the niche-ness of the situation.

It's extraordinary that on the same forum where you have ppl advocating that the HSE provide PREP free of charge to people who are promiscuous - that all of a sudden you have a problem with ppl treating others as 'objects'. How hypocritical is that.

I would hardly call a 3 sum an unusual sexual practice either in the hetro or gay world. And again it's extraordinary that on this forum you would talk of this particular scenario as if it were some bizarre situation.

I would have no problem with anyone propositioning me for any reason - I may be interested and if not I'm free to walk away. I'd much rather ppl be interested in me and even assume I would be interested than the opposite.

All I see here is someone with a persecution complex and looking for the most trivial of examples to back it up.

You should be a politician the way you avoided the question.

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Would you want lots of people making automatic conclusions about your propensity to engage in unusual sex practices solely based on your gender identity? Would you like to be considered some sort fetish object based solely on your gender identity?

Ok everything below is me talking for me about me and only related to me. So hoping not to be offensive to anyone. Just interested to stimulate feedback on how they see it different in their own well being.

But to be honest the above is not something I think I - for one - would like or dislike. I am a straight man - so yes there are conclusions to be reached about what sexual practices I might be open to and not open to based on that fact. And if people with some sexual scenario on their agenda see me - and think I might fit into it based on their preconceptions - they are welcome to communicate that to me.

My girlfriends - aside from their sexual relationship with me and each other - identify as straight. A fact which triggers - well no one I can think of except 2 users of boards actually who were driven demented by the notion Other than each other however they have never before - or since - been sexually interested in their own gender.

On the rare occasions strangers on a night out cop their relationship however - since they are not in your face with the PDA most of the time but when they are, or by some other cues, guys sometimes cop it - it tends to affect what many guys feel is "ok" to proposition - or worse _how_ they can proposition. Some social and ethical norms get bypassed by some of them in pretty crappy ways.

And they do jump to mad conclusions too about it. The moment they consider the girls "Alternative" that automatically includes they are "up for it" or "game" or "hot to trot" as the characters of the sitcom Happy Days used to say hehe - and can be propositioned to do all sorts from putting on a sex show right there in the bar - to a threesome back in the apartment - or can be called at suddenly like they are no longer free range people - but caged zoo animals.

They like me neither like nor dislike such automatic conclusions. What matters to them - just as it matters to me - is what form the propositions take - and what form acceptance of rejection takes.

There is a continuum there from the most polite at one end - to the most scummy at the other - and where the propositioner lands on that is far more important to me and them then any conclusions or preconceptions they might have entered into the proposition holding.

But if someone with preconceptions propositions me or them based on preconceptions - but does it politely - and takes rejection like a mature normal grown adult would - then I myself would have to become an offence trigger junkie - totally on edge every day just waiting for the next "high" of getting to be offended - to be bothered by it all that much I feel. Again this is just me I am talking about - and the changes that would have to happen to me to get to that point.

Being treated as an object in a certain context is not automatically a bad thing either. Hell even _within_ my long term loving relationship there are modes and moments when we become objects to each other and we just wanna get down and use each other manically for our bodies. But then other times we want to "make love" and it is totally a connection of hearts and souls. But if someone has a fetish or fantasy and some relatively rare attribute I have makes them think I might be a fit - by all means approach me and ask! I love people - what they are into and why - their diversity - so come and tell me all about it. In the end I won't be able to help you most likely! But approach me all the same.

All that said however I can only guess at what it is like to be a woman in the larger context of being propositioned at all in the first place. Trans CIS or otherwise. Let alone a woman who is highly attractive. I see it sometimes with my GFs. They can often literally not walk from our table in the average pub - to the toilet and back or to the bar and back - on their own without being called at, propositioned, even grabbed by the hand arm or waist and pulled towards the interested guy physically - more than 2 or 3 times in a single trip. Often having some over rehearsed chat up one liner thrown loudly into their face with drunken spittle.

I even remember one night when the younger of my GFs went to the toilet and was gone for 45 minutes solely because in the busy bar she was accosted about 5 times there and 5 times back. When I went - took me 5 minutes for the entire round trip.

Once or twice - ok - but to basically be getting that daily for your entire life sometimes multiple times a day - just for being in a pub or sitting alone in the park reading a book or just walking down the street - if nothing else it must be absolutely exhausting. Like soul destroying levels of exhausting. Let alone all the other negatives like it often being intimidating and so forth. And I can imagine how many of us guys - who that does not happen to - not even considering there is a there there. And the worst of them getting offended when the girl is just too tired of it to respond anything but shortly - so they shout some offence at her about her frigidity or what not.

I am proud of my gender in a lot of ways - but some of us really do let the side down and embarrass us all. I like to think there is less of them than there is of us though! One hopes.

AllForIt

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

You should be a politician the way you avoided the question.

I answered the question in full. And anyway - it's called 'trying it on', not 'making assumptions'. I recognize spin when I see it.

All I see here is a number of petty complaints

1. was hit on - warped to 'preyed on'

2. fetishism - not really fetishism strictly speaking but what's wrong with fetishes anyway

3. expected to be promiscuous in LGBT society - now that's a novel one for sure


And all done to illustrate some kind of specific plight transgender women suffer - when there isn't a single thing about this tale that is in any way unique to a transgender person that wouldn't happen to people of differing gender or sexual identities in a similar scenario.

If JTF has a problem with ppl sleeping around, fetish, kink, sexual liberation, 3 sums, 4 sums - that's fine, she's entitled to her old fashioned Catholic Ireland-like views (and again strange choice of forum to espouse those views) but that wasn't the point of the thread was it. As I said - persecution complex.

JackTaylorFan

People don't seem to get it. Not everyone enjoys being fetishised in their day-to-day life.

If you guys enjoy that, cool. Not my thing, I'm not judging people for doing whatever they want as long as it doesn't involve me.

Unfortunately, as a trans woman, I live with harmful stereotypes influenced by pornography and TV tropes, and I do experience the real life consequences of this almost every day. I've been around long enough to know when people are being inappropriate around me, and I won't accept that. So, if you have a problem with that, I don't really care.

JackTaylorFan

JupiterKid wrote: »

I have been in threesomes before (with two other gay men) and I thoroughly enjoyed the experience - and I have been propositioned a number of times by gay guys for threesomes before. If anything, I would consider it a compliment to be propositioned, and not an insult. If I am propositioned and am not interesed, I simply tell them so politely and move on. As I am currently in a LTR I'm out of the market for threesomes at present.

Good for you. Not my thing. I don't consider it a compliment to be seen as essentially nothing more than a sex-toy. If you do, all power to you.

JackTaylorFan

Deleted User wrote: »

Once or twice - ok - but to basically be getting that daily for your entire life sometimes multiple times a day - just for being in a pub or sitting alone in the park reading a book or just walking down the street - if nothing else it must be absolutely exhausting. Like soul destroying levels of exhausting. Let alone all the other negatives like it often being intimidating and so forth. And I can imagine how many of us guys - who that does not happen to - not even considering there is a there there. And the worst of them getting offended when the girl is just too tired of it to respond anything but shortly - so they shout some offence at her about her frigidity or what not.

This is part of my experience. I've been harassed on the street in the middle of the day by men who've seen my pic on a dating app (which openly states I'm trans) and think they have the right to say the most ****ed up things to me - let alone even speak to me. I know cis women get a lot of ****, too. I'm not denying that, but at least it's kinda diluted for them. This is all I ever get and it is because I'm trans.

I've had a few make me feel unsafe at night whether I'm waiting on a bench in the square for a bus, or trying to have a drink with my friend. But it's usually when I'm alone that I'm targeted by them.

I get this is slightly veering off unicorn hunters and into general fetishism of trans women territory but I feel the attitudes are related if not the same

JackTaylorFan

AllForIt wrote: »

If JTF has a problem with ppl sleeping around, fetish, kink, sexual liberation, 3 sums, 4 sums - that's fine, she's entitled to her old fashioned Catholic Ireland-like views (and again strange choice of forum to espouse those views) but that wasn't the point of the thread was it. As I said - persecution complex.

Catholic Ireland views? No, I just don't want to be treated as **** by selfish people. As I said, people are free to sleep with whomever they want (with consent obviously), if it makes you uncomfortable that I don't participate in that, that's your issue.

You are using straw man arguments every time you bring religion into this

JackTaylorFan

Honestly, the misogyny on display here is ridiculous.

JupiterKid

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Good for you. Not my thing. I don't consider it a compliment to be seen as essentially nothing more than a sex-toy. If you do, all power to you.

Erm...no, I don't actually see myself as a sex toy whatsoever. I have pretty high self-esteem and am very, very choosy with whom I sleep/play with. I am currently in a long-term relationship which is open but has very clear boundaries.

You actually know nothing about me - so please, less of the judgemental attitude and frankly wildly inaccurate appraisal of me as a person.

Ironicname

JackTaylorFan wrote:

Honestly, the misogyny on display here is ridiculous.

Where? I haven't seen any.

JackTaylorFan

Ironicname wrote: »

Where? I haven't seen any.

Men telling women they should be somehow grateful for unwanted sexual advances - and been judged for not appreciating it. That's about as misogynistic as it gets

JackTaylorFan

JupiterKid wrote: »

You actually know nothing about me - so please, less of the judgemental attitude and frankly wildly inaccurate appraisal of me as a person.

Irony

Ironicname

It is people telling you that because a stranger came up and had a conversation (which you willingly participated in and divulged personal sexual information which didn't actually result in a proposition (but may have been leading there), it is unusual that you felt like you think it was somehow an unsolicited sexual advance.

The fact that you attempt to shoe horn in mysoginy into it is also odd.

A man giving his opinion isn't mysoginistic. The fact that you think so, is that misandry?

Annasopra

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Irony

To be fair Jupiterkid she is dead right here.

AllForIt

As far as JTF's further points are concerned my previous comments answer them all and I'm not going to fall into the trap of going round in circles.

The pertinent question now is why are these threads are being tolerated at all. I don't know if there is a Personal Diary forum but I'd suggest this thread would be more appropriated there if there is one, or perhaps the Personal Issues forum, as I see no reason that this tread is appropriate for the LGBT forum. It would seem to me to answer my own question that any thread where a poster who is LGBT wishes to describe some kind of discrimination they are more than welcome here, even if there is absolutely no validity to the complaint at all. That is not a good look.

These threads are nasty, spiteful, bitter and twisted. Demonizing people albeit unnamed who don't deserve it. Misogyny in the Queer community? Huh. Where's the Misandry in the Lesbian Community thread for a bitta balance. Fortunately no one has and I'n not quite sure if such a thread would be tolerated. In fact I'm sure it wouldn't. I could put up a convincing argument for it but fortunately I don't have such a persecution complex to bother.

I think it's time for some change on this forum - preferably self inflicted.

JupiterKid

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

To be fair Jupiterkid she is dead right here.

And may I ask how?

You see, this is why the LGBT forum on Boards is not as busy and active as it might otherwise be, because certain posters (and one in particular) are freely allowed to vent their bitterness and bile at others and the community in general, alienating other posters and ensuring that potential posters stay away.

It is very biased, very unfair and pretty sad, all things considered. How can people view this forum as a supposed ”safe” space when certain posters are given virtually free reign to attack and insult others and project their anger and insecurities in such a negative way?

For that reason, I’m out...

JackTaylorFan

Ironicname wrote: »

It is people telling you that because a stranger came up and had a conversation (which you willingly participated in and divulged personal sexual information which didn't actually result in a proposition (but may have been leading there), it is unusual that you felt like you think it was somehow an unsolicited sexual advance.

I told them I was trans, how is that sexual?

Oh, yes, because people make assumptions when you're trans. Thanks for letting me make that point.

Also, someone asking your sexual preference as an introductory question is pretty creepy - man or woman. Maybe less so when you're in an environment where it is expected to be hit on - like a night club or bar. I was a resident in a hotel. I had a choice of trying to smoke my cigarettes and be polite or causing a scene. I chose the former.

Also, saying I should take un-welcomed propositions (be they online or in real life) as a compliment is pretty misogynistic. How many times do I have to reiterate this point?

JackTaylorFan

AllForIt wrote: »

These threads are nasty, spiteful, bitter and twisted. Demonizing people albeit unnamed who don't deserve it. Misogyny in the Queer community?

Academics write about this for a reason, the reason being it exists.

Goodshape

JupiterKid wrote: »

And may I ask how?

You see, this is why the LGBT forum on Boards is not as busy and active as it might otherwise be, because certain posters (and one in particular) are freely allowed to vent their bitterness and bile at others and the community in general, alienating other posters and ensuring that potential posters stay away.

It is very biased, very unfair and pretty sad, all things considered. How can people view this forum as a supposed ”safe” space when certain posters are given virtually free reign to attack and insult others and project their anger and insecurities in such a negative way?

For that reason, I’m out...

I honestly don't know what you would like us, as moderators, to do.

This thread started with a single story of a personal experience and a personal reaction to that expereince. Should we not allow that?

I see more "bitterness and bile" being directed at the OP in this thread than from them.

I'd really like everyone to keep in mind that you're under no obligation to respond or contribute to every single post you see here. It's perfectly acceptable to shut up, read (or not!), and move on.

Questioning and debating every single thing which "certain posters (and one in particular)" choose to share is absolutely unnecessary.

Ironicname

I was actually speaking about when you humoured her by telling her your sexual preference





Erm... Nope.





Or you could have been polite and refused to answer and say something along the lines of "I'm sorry, I don't really feel comfortable discussing this with a stranger"





How is it mysoginistic? Because a man said it to you?

JackTaylorFan

Ironicname wrote: »

I was actually speaking about when you humoured her by telling her your sexual preference

...

Or you could have been polite and refused to answer and say something along the lines of "I'm sorry, I don't really feel comfortable discussing this with a stranger"

Have you ever been put on the spot like that? It's something that used to happen to me in school. You sometimes have a reflex reaction to things. It doesn't mean I was all that comfortable with it. And, quite honestly, that line you suggested sounds like something you'd hear a telephone machine saying.

Ironicname wrote: »

How is it mysoginistic? Because a man said it to you?

Women can be misogynistic too. But, yeah, in this particular thread, it seems to be two or three guys trying to convince me into thinking this behaviour is just fine when directed at people who are not open to it. In fact, my dating profile specifically says no unicorn hunters and no polys - as I'm monogamous - but that don't stop them messaging me anyway

Ironicname

JackTaylorFan wrote:

Have you ever been put on the spot like that? It's something that used to happen to me in school. You sometimes have a reflex reaction to things. It doesn't mean I was all that comfortable with it. And, quite honestly, that line you suggested sounds like something you'd hear a telephone machine saying.

Yes. I have. I have been propositioned and asked sexual questions that I didn't want to answer.

My reflex reaction is never to divulge information I was uncomfortable with divulging and then complaining about it after the fact.

How can you expect someone to know any advance (which by your story, didn't happen as you weren't propositioned) would be unwelcome if they were willfully engaging in a conversation which involved sexual preferences?

JackTaylorFan wrote:

Women can be misogyonistic too.

Yes. But telling someone that a person asking or attempting to chat them up isn't a bad thing isn't mysoginistic. In any way.

JackTaylorFan

Ironicname wrote: »

How can you expect someone to know any advance (which by your story, didn't happen as you weren't propositioned) would be unwelcome if they were willfully engaging in a conversation which involved sexual preferences?

I was there, you were not. I know how I was made to feel by the end of the conversation - when I did decide it was time to get away from them. I speak to lots of people everyday who don't make me feel like that. Instincts are something I listen to.

JackTaylorFan

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Women can be misogynistic too. But, yeah, in this particular thread, it seems to be two or three guys trying to convince me into thinking this behaviour is just fine when directed at people who are not open to it. In fact, my dating profile specifically says no unicorn hunters and no polys - as I'm monogamous - but that don't stop them messaging me anyway

Two or three PEOPLE have not tried to convince you of anything.

From my reading, the only thing that this person did that was in any way unacceptable was to ask your sexual preference. You answered that question so the not unreasonable presumption was that you may have been comfortable in continuing the conversation.

You assumed you were being propositioned and people have explained that as there seemed to be a level of engagement from yourself, it may not have been clear it was unwanted and therefore rather than being offended, you should look at is as a positive. You gave no indication that you would not be interested.

Your attempt to brand this as misogyny (the hatred or prejudice against women) is baffling. Where the hell did anyone even indicate that thinking?

Anyway, bizarre choice of words, bizarre story in general.

Goodshape

MOD:: Okay, I think we're done here.

The OP had asked "If anyone else has experience of this kind of crap, you're welcome to share." – and in 35 responses, not a single person has.

JTF – I'm sorry you had a bad experience with that couple but this forum is not your personal blog. Aside from that closing remark, there was precious little that was open to discussion in your opening post. And this is a discussion forum. Please don't post a rant like this again.

Everyone – stop picking apart and questioning people's experiences. Not responding is always an option.