Employer withholding pay

Zenify

I have a time sheet online and it gets updated daily by my employer. On the last day of the month I am supposed to approve it, which I normally do. I forgot to do it last month (new years eve) and I didnt get paid. I know I will eventually get paid but January is tough enough without any pay. Is my employer allowed to do that. I'd like to add that I wasnt working on that day and I am supposed to do it online anyway.

seamus

The employer isn't really withholding pay, you will get double pay at the end of this month as per the process.

The short answer is that yes they are allowed do that. Having a standard pay cycle is the done thing, so an employee running out of cash between cycles doesn't mean the company has to pay them early.

The fact that this was your error as opposed to the company's error also means that you don't have much of a leg to stand on. This is probably all in your contract.

If you're really stuck, many payroll departments will do an advance on your wages. This is in effect a zero-interest loan that's taken out of your next payslip and could get you over the hump. Other options might be asking your bank for a short-term loan or dipping into a credit card. There are only two weeks to go, so any interest payable would be tiny.

Zenify

Zenify wrote: »

I wasnt working on that day and I am supposed to do it online anyway.

Not trying to hijack and this point was raised by the OP, so curious if anyone knows what the legal position is if the OP is not scheduled to work and the time-sheet can only be input/approved or whatever on that day...?

They're not scheduled/rostered to work but the employer insists on work related activities... something that is happening more and more these days.

Surely if it's done online then it doesn't matter if they're rostered or not?

Zenify

It's not in the contract.

I accept this example is a minor point but extend it to emails/WhatsApp 'conferences' and other on-line activities - this is something beginning to bug me with the other half; she's not working but there's maybe 30 mins or so on days off with telecons/WhatsApp chats with area managers and the like.

But, perhaps another thread - not trying to hijack just saw a correlation to my situation with the "I wasnt working on that day" comment.

Zenify

Zenify wrote: »

It's not in the contract.

You neglected to input your hours for the month, and that is your employer’s fault?

BrianBoru00

Can you change the headline?
They aren't withholding pay. You have said yourself it was your omission.

Zenify

Dav010 wrote: »

You neglected to input your hours for the month, and that is your employer’s fault?

My employer puts in the hours, it's all there and I check it every day to make sure its right. If it's ever wrong I text that day. On the last day of the month a button appears on the schedule that says "approve schedule ". I just didnt push the button. I forgot to do it as I was very busy on New Years eve.

_Brian

What sort of contract are you on ??

Do your hours vary hugely ??

Sounds like the system recognised you didn’t complete any hours because you didn’t approve them. From their perspective you don’t get paid when no hours done.

Zenify

A zero hour contract but I'd work 5 days a week. I get paid per day not per hour. I rang the WRC and he said it's a gray area that there is no specific legislation for that. He said I could lodge a complaint if I wanted. Obviously that's not something I want to do.

Unanimous

Have you spoken to your employer asking for help?
Surely they will understand your point and will let you know if their hands are tied or not.
I am concerned on the relation you have with your employer that you are contacting WRC and boards before asking them if it is possible to help you get through the month.
Even if there was a legislation or if you lodge a complaint against them, what will it look like to them if you didn't raise the issue with them first.?

FionnB

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely if it's done online then it doesn't matter if they're rostered or not?

Of course it matters. Do work tasks not count if they are done online??

Zenify

Unanimous wrote: »

Have you spoken to your employer asking for help?
Surely they will understand your point and will let you know if their hands are tied or not.
I am concerned on the relation you have with your employer that you are contacting WRC and boards before asking them if it is possible to help you get through the month.
Even if there was a legislation or if you lodge a complaint against them, what will it look like to them if you didn't raise the issue with them first.?

This isn't as much about the money and needing help through the month. I contacted the employer straight away . It's more about the fact that this is allowed to happen, I think this shouldn't be allowed. Not just from my employer but any employer. I get paid per day and they told me to work x amount of days, there is no complication to that.

FionnB

FionnB wrote: »

Of course it matters. Do work tasks not count if they are done online??

Are you saying that you would refuse to approve your hours on the last day of the month, if you were not rostered to work?

Can you at all see, that it benefits you to just click once on approve, so that you can get paid?

OU812

You neglected to press the button (ask to be paid). How is this your employer's fault?

They're not withholding pay, you never told them you wanted paying.

charlietheminxx

OU812 wrote: »

You neglected to press the button (ask to be paid). How is this your employer's fault?

They're not withholding pay, you never told them you wanted paying.

I don't think that's fair when there's only one day you're allowed press the button. Anyone can get distracted, particularly over Xmas.

charlietheminxx

charlietheminxx wrote: »

I don't think that's fair when there's only one day you're allowed press the button. Anyone can get distracted, particularly over Xmas.

Very true, but if you are distracted, it seems odd to say your employer is withholding your wages, don’t you think?

FionnB

FionnB wrote: »

Of course it matters. Do work tasks not count if they are done online??

It's not a work task. It's a "getting fcuking paid" task. You bet your ass It's the first thing I'd do that morning when I wake up.

Zenify

Zenify wrote: »

This isn't as much about the money and needing help through the month. I contacted the employer straight away . It's more about the fact that this is allowed to happen, I think this shouldn't be allowed. Not just from my employer but any employer. I get paid per day and they told me to work x amount of days, there is no complication to that.

If you don’t have set days, I think it is very fair that you are allowed review your hours worked on a daily basis, correct them instantly if they are wrong, and then approve them at the end of the month. This certainly is not complicated.

DesperateDan

OU812 wrote: »

you never told them you wanted paying.

Have you ever in your life worked in a job that forced you once a month to tell them you wanted paying?

Bizarre setup OP but it sounds like you have to play by their rules, no matter how ridiculous they are.

silver2020

It's ALWAYS someone else's fault.

Why can't people just simply accept they made an error and move on.

Calling in the WRC - FFS!

zerosugarbuzz

Hi OP, I think this is very harsh and leaning towards sharp practice by your employer. I cant give you legal advice but would advise you to call your local Citizens Advice Office and they will be able to give you accurate information. What industry are you in?

Bikerman2019

When you say you press the button to approve your hours, is this not a case of you are double checking their calculations about what you did?


So you are literally confirming they are correct in their reckoning of your wages and hours worked?


So accordingly, they worked out you were due "500 euro". But wont pay it until you confirm they are correct and have not fecked it up.


Seems an unusual way of doing it, but most certainly not a case where they are stopping payment of your wages. That's a crazy thing to say.

_Brian

silver2020 wrote: »

It's ALWAYS someone else's fault.

Why can't people just simply accept they made an error and move on.

Calling in the WRC - FFS!

This a thousand times over.
We’ve completely lost personal accountability.

DesperateDan

DesperateDan wrote: »

Have you ever in your life worked in a job that forced you once a month to tell them you wanted paying?

I've worked jobs where you had to submit proof of hours worked, expenses incurred, travel and subsistence etc. There has always been a cut-off point before payroll is submitted to the bank. If you miss the deadline, that's on your own head.

DesperateDan

DesperateDan wrote: »

Have you ever in your life worked in a job that forced you once a month to tell them you wanted paying?

Bizarre setup OP but it sounds like you have to play by their rules, no matter how ridiculous they are.

I’m pretty sure they know you want to be paid, giving the employee on a zero hour contract the opportunity to check the accuracy of the hours worked, and approve them for payment isn’t as ridiculous as you seem to think it is. It ensures accuracy and gives the employee the opportunity to correct any mistakes. Your take on it is bizarre though.

Mrs OBumble

DesperateDan wrote: »

Have you ever in your life worked in a job that forced you once a month to tell them you wanted paying?

Bizarre setup OP but it sounds like you have to play by their rules, no matter how ridiculous they are.

Yes. When I've been temping, I MUST submit an authorised time sheet or I don't get paid.

Seve OB

this thread is bizarre from all points of view!

DesperateDan

Dav010 wrote: »

Your take on it is bizarre though.

My take? I literally quoted OU812's take. We're now making up scenarios where the OP is on a zero hour contract, which was not mentioned.

I have worked four zero hour contracts, they all either had a clocking system or simply wrote down the hours and paid me (never needing me to verify).

Their process is the result of either a lack of trust in staff or management ineptitude (or both).

lawred2

_Brian wrote: »

This a thousand times over.
We’ve completely lost personal accountability.

I think we've completely lost hyperbole

lawred2

DesperateDan wrote: »

My take? I literally quoted OU812's take. We're now making up scenarios where the OP is on a zero hour contract, which was not mentioned.

I have worked four zero hour contracts, they all either had a clocking system or simply wrote down the hours and paid me (never needing me to verify).

Their process is the result of either a lack of trust in staff or management ineptitude (or both).

OP said they were on a zero hour contract on page one

Zenify

To clear up a few things I am on a zero hour contract, my contract also states I will get paid at the start of the month in arrears for previous month (doesnt mention pending timesheet).

This timesheet is a new thing that employers actually have to have signed by their employees for some regulation. Approving the schedule is not because of trust but for regulation. Not paying wages is mostly a strategy to get the employees to sign it. This was the first time I forgot .

Hopefully this clears up a few things

Jim2007

Zenify wrote: »

It's more about the fact that this is allowed to happen, I think this shouldn't be allowed.

For heavens sake, you are supposed to be an adult, take responsibility for your actions, or in this case your in action. Expecting an employer to organise their payroll process around your inability to follow a simple procedure is ridiculous.

OU812

charlietheminxx wrote: »

I don't think that's fair when there's only one day you're allowed press the button. Anyone can get distracted, particularly over Xmas.

Not when there’s money involved.

OU812

OU812 wrote: »

Not when there’s money involved.

It’s a pretty good motivator to press the “approve” tab.

OU812

DesperateDan wrote: »

Have you ever in your life worked in a job that forced you once a month to tell them you wanted paying?

Bizarre setup OP but it sounds like you have to play by their rules, no matter how ridiculous they are.

Yes. Several times.

Personal responsibility at play here. Neglect to act, don’t get paid. It’s simple really.

Jim2007

DesperateDan wrote: »

Have you ever in your life worked in a job that forced you once a month to tell them you wanted paying?

Bizarre setup OP but it sounds like you have to play by their rules, no matter how ridiculous they are.

Apart from a few permanent positions, I've never worked a contract where I did not have to complete time sheets, get them approved by a given date in order to get paid that month, otherwise it gets held over until the following month. Most of these kind of companies do not have full-time payroll staff to deal with all the 'special' people who can't follow the procedure.

Seve OB

DesperateDan wrote: »

My take? I literally quoted OU812's take. We're now making up scenarios where the OP is on a zero hour contract, which was not mentioned.

I have worked four zero hour contracts, they all either had a clocking system or simply wrote down the hours and paid me (never needing me to verify).

Their process is the result of either a lack of trust in staff or management ineptitude (or both).

try post 11

Stheno

Zenify wrote: »

To clear up a few things I am on a zero hour contract, my contract also states I will get paid at the start of the month in arrears for previous month (doesnt mention pending timesheet).

This timesheet is a new thing that employers actually have to have signed by their employees for some regulation. Approving the schedule is not because of trust but for regulation. Not paying wages is mostly a strategy to get the employees to sign it. This was the first time I forgot .

Hopefully this clears up a few things

Are you a direct employee of the company?

RunRoryRun

I think there’s a big difference between having to confirm your hours by a given day and having to re-confirm the hours you’ve inputted ON a given day.

If, for arguments sake, the OP was on a foreign holiday at the end of the month or was getting married or his wife was in labour, so you think it’s still reasonable that he not be paid because he was unable to log in and approved on that day?

I don’t know whether they are allowed to do this or not, but it’s not reasonable and a lousy way to operate.

Jim2007

RunRoryRun wrote: »

If, for arguments sake, the OP was on a foreign holiday at the end of the month or was getting married or his wife was in labour, so you think it’s still reasonable that he not be paid because he was unable to log in and approved on that day?

Argument sake would be that the OP would use the option to approve it before he goes on holidays, it's the first time this kind of thing happens and I'm sure it is addressed in the company's procedures.

RunRoryRun

Jim2007 wrote: »

Argument sake would be that the OP would use the option to approve it before he goes on holidays, it's the first time this kind of thing happens and I'm sure it is addressed in the company's procedures.

If that option were available, then that would be perfect. The OP has said that is NOT an option and that the approval can only be done ON the final day, not BY the final day of each month. That’s the unreasonable part of it’s the case.

Zenify

It can only be approved on the last day of the month.

TheChizler

Sounds very unreasonable, they're restricting you to a very specific period of time to approve it. It would be more reasonable if there was 2 or 3 days between that and payday for anyone without Internet access to complete it.

Is payroll run the first day in the month? Or is it a few days later and this rule about having to approve it on the last day totally unnecessary?

TheChizler

TheChizler wrote: »

Sounds very unreasonable, they're restricting you to a very specific period of time to approve it. It would be more reasonable if there was 2 or 3 days between that and payday for anyone without Internet access to complete it.

Is payroll run the first day in the month? Or is it a few days later and this rule about having to approve it on the last day totally unnecessary?

Unreasonable? Op said you can view time worked, every day, you just have to approve on the last day of the month. If you add another fees days on, pay would be delayed those extra few days, and you would still have a deadline for approval, what happens if you forget that day?

TheChizler

Dav010 wrote: »

Unreasonable? Op said you can view time worked, every day, you just have to approve on the last day of the month. If you add another fees days on, pay would be delayed those extra few days, and you would still have a deadline for approval, what happens if you forget that day?

The way I read it is that the op has to approve the hours for the last day of the month ON the last day of the month, so there's only a single day's opportunity to secure your pay for that month. Maybe I'm wrong.

Is not unusual for pay day to occur a few days after the period worked, I've been in a couple of jobs where it was up to an entire week later.

Pauliedragon

It seems like an odd system. I sign in and out online as most of us do these days but on the odd occasion I forget I get paid anyway as HR would know if I was absent and inform payroll accordingly. At the very least someone could have sent a message saying look I'm finalising the wages and noticed you haven't approved said hrs can you double check.

Stateofyou

Why isn't their payroll person reaching out to those who haven't approved yet on that day? I did payroll for years early on in my career, and this is what we did. It's a courtesy, people are human and sh*t goes sideways, we helped each other out if needed.
Why can't the OP be paid then at least for the days being input by the employer? If it's wrong because final approval wasn't received in time, it can be adjusted on the next pay. Then the employee won't be out their pay - for a whole month which is too long to wait. Even more of a reason for payroll dept to follow up with approvals needed.

Strumms

Shît company, you have turned up, done your work and because of a supposed oversight you get ZERO pay. That’s unacceptable. Ensuring employees get paid for the work they do is of paramount importance.

In a previous job one of our jobs which was rotated amongst the team was the time calculator... say it was my turn, I’d run a report on the Monday for the previous week and check the hours worked in the system vs scheduled hours vs holidays etc... a spread sheet was sent to the manager and the entire team and anybody who saw a discrepancy in it got back to the manager, be it an oversight on my behalf or maybe they filled in a timesheet wrong but that way, having it visible and transparent meant that nobody lost out, due to an oversight (as can happen) at either end...

In the op’s instance, the management would have been 100% aware that they had worked and owed the employee some communication such as “hey your hours are not showing what’s the story”...it’s a text or phone call, they'd be fast enough on the blower to them if they needed the OP for OT... so a call to sort out a payment anomaly isn’t or shouldn’t be too difficult.

kirving

_Brian wrote: »

This a thousand times over.
We’ve completely lost personal accountability.

Well, I'm glad it hasn't happened to you.

What kind of absolutely crap employer doesn't pause for a second and say "you know what, OP normally works X hours per month, I might as well pay them the average over the past 6 months so they're not stuck, and correct the balance next month".

Simple, easy, fair, and a reminder email would likely ensure it doesn't happen again.

Or, get this for a wild suggestion, a phonecall to the OP, or their manager to check the situation?

Do you really think omitting to click a check box deserves no salary for a month?

Jim2007 wrote: »

For heavens sake, you are supposed to be an adult, take responsibility for your actions, or in this case your in action. Expecting an employer to organise their payroll process around your inability to follow a simple procedure is ridiculous.

Get over yourself. No normal company operates this way.

How about next time you overstay a parking meter by 10 second due to "your inability to follow a simple procedure", you get find €2000.

Do you think that would be fair? Be honest now.