Is it not time EVERYONE considers not voting for FF or FG in the upcoming election

efanton

Before I even start. Im am not advocating, or trying to persuade, that anyone vote for any particular party.

Where are we now. Lets be honest the country is in a total shambles.
We have 'services' that hardly merit the term. the health service, education, housing, special needs, childcare all far below the standard of what any developed country should expect.

You might argue, well we have the economy right isnt that something, and I would agree with you except that we have well educated, experience people working in fairly good jobs with a decent income and yet they cant find anywhere reasonable to live or even afford what is available.

We vote FF in, they make a balls up, then we vote FG in and they make another balls up, but by then we are told to forgive FF for their mistakes and the cycle repeats and repeats.

Is it not time to call a halt. I dont care what you individual political beliefs are, that's up to you and a personal issue as far as I am concerned. But is it not time that we refused to reelect parties or individual TD's that continually fail.
There will be the argument that if we dont vote FF or FG who else can we trust in government. To me that's very much the same as saying yes they are both bad, but because we allow them to act with impunity, they will carry on exactly as before with no lesson learnt, no improvement, no sanction.

Would an employer keep a member of staff despite them being total hopeless at their job? It will cost them money and inconvenience to replace them, they have no idea how a replacement employee will perform, but they will very definitely take action.

Would you continue to go to a shop or restaurant where the service is atrocious, because you dont know what the service in an alternative is like?
You might see reviews or hear stories, but inevitably you are either going to approach the management and say this is simply not good enough, or you are going to take a chance and try the other establishment.

Same for child care. If your child is in the care of someone that you deem unfit to look after your child you certainly are not going to let them continue looking after them even if the alternatives might not look as good.

We all hear how bad SF SD, People before profit(or what ever brand they are using this time round) , or the independents might be in government, yet the simple fact is no one really knows as they have never had that chance. All we have to go on is what other parties might claim or the opinions of those already biased against them.

Surely it is time to refuse to reelect any TD or minister that has failed, no matter which party they represent or what political party you personally might support.

Michael Martin was up to his neck in the fiasco that forced our country into beggary and austerity, and his reward after a year or two was to become party leader. Seriously if this was a soap opera or film most would find the plot totally unbelievable. Surely if FF we truly apologetic of the calamity they caused this country all those involved would have been removed as TD's let alone be allowed to stand as perspective ministers or a Taoiseach before a subsequent general election. I'm not bashing FF specifically here, we could say the same about current and previous ministers in Labour, FG or Greens.

To me the issue is simple. The cycle simply has to be broken at some point and its going to take a little bit of bravery or courage by those who have a vote.
The country is in a mess, its hardly likely that it could get significantly worse no matter who is elected, so is now the time to send a message that we expect parties (all of them) to clean up their act, get rid of those that fail, or we simply will not vote for them.

If nothing else, a bloody nose for FG,FF or indeed any party that was in a government and failed will make them and all parties take serious stock and be the impetus for serious reform and improved governance. The pantomime that Enda Kenny went through (remember him) promising total reform never happened.
I would be saying exactly the same about SF if they got into power and did not deliver what they promise. The next general election would be only a few years away, plenty time to clean house, and come back genuinely interested in performing better. With no party with an outright majority removing a government that is failing would be easier too.

If the vote for FF and FG and to a degree Labour (let's not forget they had a hand in it too), was significantly reduced, and the smaller parties got a bigger share, yes we would have no party capable of forming a government with an outright majority. This seems to work in many European countries, where parties agree common ground, and no party expects to automatically return to government. It would at least temper some of the extremely unpopular taxes, stealth charges, polices that seem to get squeezed through because a single party has an outright majority.
If there was no outright majority would TD's then be forced to work for the common good rather than the party they stand for or look specifically after those that financially support them.

I'm really posting here to get a feel for how people think. Are people prepare to take a chance, or are they simply happy to get more of the same constant disappointment.

As stated at the very top, Im not advocating any particular party, I'm hoping that people will simply post their views in a non party way (or as near as you can get on a political forum). Keep it civilised and as non party and non-partisan as possible.
Is there a mood there for significant change, or are we doomed to what essentially is a two part state with very little difference between them both in policy and standards?

freshpopcorn

At the end of the day some people are happy enough at how the country is run within reason(They know it's not perfect but they don't believe in the Utopia some parties say they'll bring to Ireland),
Others are happy to stay tipping along the way we going at the moment.
Some fear change.
Some don't see and alternative.
Thing people say in my experience.
''Sinn Fein will tax the hard workers and anybody with any bit of money to fund the people who do nothing''.
''The Green's will tax every one especially people from the country''.
''Independents all have different views and nothing will get done''.

suicide_circus

What if you believe there is no evidence that any other parties will improve anything? Again not advocating FG/FF (same party).

Wanderer78

Ff and fg are behemoths, they ll never go away, they will probably always receive the majority of votes, don't be surprised of another confidence and supply

Panda Killa

Until we see a party that offers a genuine alternative to FF and FG...1 or both will always be in government....the most any other party can hope for, is a minor coalition partner...that could go the way of the labour party and the greens and almost destroying them (anybody remember the PD's) ??

kippy

freshpopcorn wrote: »

At the end of the day some people are happy enough at how the country is run within reason(They know it's not perfect but they don't believe in the Utopia some parties say they'll bring to Ireland),
Others are happy to stay tipping along the way we going at the moment.
Some fear change.
Some don't see and alternative.
Thing people say in my experience.
''Sinn Fein will tax the hard workers and anybody with any bit of money to fund the people who do nothing''.
''The Green's will tax every especially people from the country''.
''Interdependents all have different views and nothing will get done''.

This.

debok

suicide_circus wrote: »

What if you believe there is no evidence that any other parties will improve anything? Again not advocating FG/FF (same party).

But why not try get rid of them. Then they might realise they have to try harder the next time

debok

Panda Killa wrote: »

Until we see a party that offers a genuine alternative to FF and FG...1 or both will always be in government....the most any other party can hope for, is a minor coalition partner...that could go the way of the labour party and the greens and almost destroying them (anybody remember the PD's) ??

Won't ever happen. Anytime someone tries they are immediately belittled and made to look like loons or incompetent. Whereas the evidence of ffg loons and incompetentcy is ignored. Like UK gave the north 1 billion thus week to run the country that's only half a hospital in this country

Spanish Eyes

The alternatives to FF/FG are just too far Left for me, and do not fit in with my values at all.

There are no Right Wing parties that I know of and I wouldn't vote for them anyway. Just saying for balance.

This country has always been governed in general by straight down the middle parties. Sometimes looking after their mates, sometimes looking after those who feel they are "entitled".

Those left behind are people like me, who get nada, but pay for everything. Who looks after us? That is the conundrum.

Lord Glentoran

I’m going to vote for the Fine Gael candidates and then the Fianna Fáil ones in the order I fancy. Be a real bonus if that annoys the people who want the Shinners and the far left running the show.

Boggles

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Those left behind are people like me, who get nada, but pay for everything. Who looks after us? That is the conundrum.

Unless you are one of the dozen or so big Multinationals then I very much doubt you pay for everything and you certainly don't get "nada".

This attitude does bemuse me.

Go for a walk in one of the national parks and pretend your taxes paid for it, then cheer the fúck up.

Harry Palmr

You lost me at the double negative.

Emmersonn

As bad as it would be to vote either FF or FG it would be much worse to vote in any Green candidate. Extra taxes on all oil products extra taxes on coal, turf and firewood and anything else which they fear will supposedly impact global warming or the enviornment

Lyan

On paper, Fine Gael are the only party with semi-decent policies. So until some future trend mixes things up I'm fine sticking with FG to at the very least keep the purely populist Fianna Fail out, as well as the other more radical parties.

Spanish Eyes

Boggles wrote: »

Unless you are one of the dozen or so big Multinationals then I very much doubt you pay for everything and you certainly don't get "nada".

This attitude does bemuse me.

Go for a walk in one of the national parks and pretend your taxes paid for it, then cheer the fúck up.

I'm grand thanks. No worries. You have made my point for me anyway, taxes, yes that thing that those contributing pay, pays for all our lovely things. It does not all come from multinationals. OMG..... LPT pays for our Councils to look after our areas. All fine.

But apart from VAT and Excise Duties and a tiny rent in Central Dublin compared to elsewhere in the country, there are some who do not pay a cent towards these lovely things, but still enjoy them. And continue to dump their black bin bags all over the place because they will not pay the bin charge.

Open your eyes.

Spanish Eyes

Like many others we pay...

Mortgage,
PAYE,
VAT,
Excise,
LPT,
Refuse Charges,
Commuting costs.

And so on.

In contrast, a person in a city centre Dublin flat on the tenant scheme pays...

Tiny rent in comparison to the norm
VAT
Excise.

See the difference.

MightyMunster

debok wrote: »

Won't ever happen. Anytime someone tries they are immediately belittled and made to look like loons or incompetent. Whereas the evidence of ffg loons and incompetentcy is ignored. Like UK gave the north 1 billion thus week to run the country that's only half a hospital in this country

1 billion more not 1 billion in total

Spanish Eyes

Harry Palmr wrote: »

You lost me at the double negative.

You are awake, well done, and I don't get nothing. So what DO I get

Idbatterim

Here is my idea and FFG are a farce! how about we all vote for one party (FF, FG) virtually same thing, I've a preference for FG, they are marginally less ****. they win every seat, what would their bull**** excuses be after decades in power and two booms be then? if they had total control?

Boggles

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I'm grand thanks. No worries. You have made my point for me anyway, taxes, yes that thing that those contributing pay, pays for all our lovely things. It does not all come from multinationals. OMG..... LPT pays for our Councils to look after our areas. All fine.

But apart from VAT and Excise Duties and a tiny rent in Central Dublin compared to elsewhere in the country, there are some who do not pay a cent towards these lovely things, but still enjoy them. And continue to dump their black bin bags all over the place because they will not pay the bin charge.

Open your eyes.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Like many others we pay...

Mortgage,
PAYE,
VAT,
Excise,
LPT,
Refuse Charges,
Commuting costs.

And so on.

In contrast, a person in a city centre Dublin flat on the tenant scheme pays...

Tiny rent in comparison to the norm
VAT
Excise.

See the difference.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

You are awake, well done, and I don't get nothing. So what DO I get

Oh right, you are just on the old dole bash.

Thought you actually wanted to engage in discussion.

As you were lad.

Thanks for paying for everything. :rolleyes:

Idbatterim

Boggles wrote: »

Oh right, you are just on the old dole bash.

Thought you actually wanted to engage in discussion.

As you were lad.

Thanks for paying for everything. :rolleyes:

where do you want to draw the line? get rid of every tax and just fund all state funding from income tax? probably not far off it...

Boggles

Idbatterim wrote: »

where do you want to draw the line? get rid of every tax and just fund all state funding from income tax? probably not far off it...

Hercule Poirot

I understand the POV regarding the FFG dominance of the political arena - it appears that the country is declining more and more with each party blaming the other for decisions that were made when they weren't in power; FG "fixing" FF's mess and vice versa.

The problem is that the political machine in this country has been going for so long that there are no viable alternatives and this is why we end up with people voting for those who benefit them locally regardless of which party they represent, this is why omadhauns like the Healy Raes get elected

Spanish Eyes

Boggles wrote: »

Oh right, you are just on the old dole bash.

Thought you actually wanted to engage in discussion.

As you were lad.

Thanks for paying for everything. :rolleyes:

I am actually rooting for those who have to pay thousands for childcare, travel for an hour and maybe more, pay a mortgage, be knackered every day, you get the drift.

I am not on a dole bash as you call it. Why would people like me not be fed up?

Are you a saint who just says, ah will be fine, let them at it, I don't mind being the fall guy?

Wake the F up.

Boggles

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I am actually rooting for those who have to pay thousands for childcare, travel for an hour and maybe more, pay a mortgage, be knackered every day, you get the drift.

I am not on a dole bash as you call it. Why would people like me not be fed up?

Are you a saint who just says, ah will be fine, let them at it, I don't mind being the fall guy?

Wake the F up.

Is whinging constantly on the internet anonymously helping?

Sign me up to this revolution, let's shake the sheeple.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I am actually rooting for those who have to pay thousands for childcare, travel for an hour and maybe more, pay a mortgage, be knackered every day, you get the drift.

I am not on a dole bash as you call it. Why would people like me not be fed up?

Are you a saint who just says, ah will be fine, let them at it, I don't mind being the fall guy?

Wake the F up.

Have you a suggestion for an alternate to ff/fg?

Labour/sf/pbp/aaa/swp are all arguing for your taxes to be doubled and the dole to be doubled. Or the greens would want you to walk for two hours instead of bus/car for an hour.

Spanish Eyes

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Have you a suggestion for an alternate to ff/fg?

Labour/sf/pbp/aaa/swp are all arguing for your taxes to be doubled and the dole to be doubled. Or the greens would want you to walk for two hours instead of bus/car for an hour.

I think I said that there is no alternative in an earlier post.

I think the FF/FG mixture will get in. OK maybe one of the cartel might need the Greens. We shall see.

Everyone should pay a little, even if others pay a lot. A+E would be a doddle if there was a charge for Med Card Holders, and as for drunks, Travellers (sorry they are awful in A+E having witnessed) and time wasters they should be charged. If admitted, it's refunded. That's what I think.

Spanish Eyes

Boggles wrote: »

Is whinging constantly on the internet anonymously helping?

Sign me up to this revolution, let's shake the sheeple.

Oh do have a break dear. We are all just talking. I't early days though, so am bracing myself for much more vitriol and shrugs than you can provide right now.

Ikozma

I haven't voted for either of those parties for years, I wouldn't waste it on them

Boggles

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Oh do have a break dear. We are all just talking

Your not lad, your whinging.

Like I said cheer up.

JP Liz V1

Imho SF, FF and FG need new leaders

I think it will always either be FF or FG in power

decky1

suicide_circus wrote: »

What if you believe there is no evidence that any other parties will improve anything? Again not advocating FG/FF (same party).

maybe if those other parties were elected we would find out, a real change is long overdue.

efanton

efanton wrote: »

Before I even start. Im am not advocating, or trying to persuade, that anyone vote for any particular party.

Where are we now. Lets be honest the country is in a total shambles.

stopped reading here

James Brown

suicide_circus wrote: »

What if you believe there is no evidence that any other parties will improve anything? Again not advocating FG/FF (same party).

How sure are you FF might cause a crash and FG will over see worsening national crises? I'm pretty sure.

Spanish Eyes

Boggles wrote: »

Your not lad, your whinging.

Like I said cheer up.

:pac::pac::pac:

lawred2

debok wrote: »

Won't ever happen. Anytime someone tries they are immediately belittled and made to look like loons or incompetent. Whereas the evidence of ffg loons and incompetentcy is ignored. Like UK gave the north 1 billion thus week to run the country that's only half a hospital in this country

Urm

1 billion EXTRA

Snow Garden

Galway West. I reckon I will vote as follows;
1. Social Democrats
2. Independent
3. Independent
4. Green

The FFG vote share is reducing with every election. The electorate need to send a signal that we want change.
Hopefully more decent parties come along and break the civil war cycle of bullshiit.

lawrencesummers

Can I ask a question, I’ve been doing a lot of drinking lately, Christmas really just finished for me this week so I haven’t taken any notice of anything in a bit.

So.

Is brexit due to actually happen at the end of January? Like properly actually happen?

Didn’t our interesting “coalition supply and confidence agreement government “ tell us for a few years that we needed to keep the sham wedding going because brexit was the biggest thing to effect Ireland in decades?

And now when brexit happens we won’t actually have a governemnt, not to mind a bad one?????



Or am I missing something?

I will be voting Social Democrats. Have no links with the party but from what I can see it’s about the most palatable of the lot.

lawred2

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Can I ask a question, I’ve been doing a lot of drinking lately, Christmas really just finished for me this week so I haven’t taken any notice of anything in a bit.

So.

Is brexit due to actually happen at the end of January? Like properly actually happen?

Didn’t our interesting “coalition supply and confidence agreement government “ tell us for a few years that we needed to keep the sham wedding going because brexit was the biggest thing to effect Ireland in decades?

And now when brexit happens we won’t actually have a governemnt, not to mind a bad one?????



Or am I missing something?

The withdrawal agreement is decided. Brexit is pretty much done.

lawred2

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I will be voting Social Democrats. Have no links with the party but from what I can see it’s about the most palatable of the lot.

Think I'll go for them and the greens..

My local FG and FF candidates are Reilly, Farrell and Darragh O Brien..

Thanks. But no thanks.

2020Vision

I always consider not voting for FF or FG in upcoming elections. Then, having through about it and considered all of the alternatives, I rapidly scurry back aboard the mothership.

One of the best opening posts I've seen on Boards.

lawrencesummers

lawred2 wrote: »

The withdrawal agreement is decided. Brexit is pretty much done.

So brexit is done, the UK leaves at the end of January, and we won’t be electing another room of fools until the 8th, with a probable 20 more days until a party takes power in anyway earnest.

It’s entirely possible that we will have no government for The month Of February while a hard border is probably getting established on this island???

What if some legislation needs passing? What if some emergency funding is needed for something?


Why didn’t they just wait a month?

James Brown

Deleted User wrote: »

I will be voting Social Democrats. Have no links with the party but from what I can see it’s about the most palatable of the lot.

There you are

https://www.socialdemocrats.ie/

lawred2

lawrencesummers wrote: »

So brexit is done, the UK leaves at the end of January, and we won’t be electing another room of fools until the 8th, with a probable 20 more days until a party takes power in anyway earnest.

It’s entirely possible that we will have no government for The month Of February while a hard border is probably getting established on this island???

What if some legislation needs passing? What if some emergency funding is needed for something?


Why didn’t they just wait a month?

What do you mean hard border? That was the whole point of the withdrawal agreement.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I will be voting Social Democrats. Have no links with the party but from what I can see it’s about the most palatable of the lot.

They'd probably get a vote off me, if they had someone running in my constituency - Waterford City. Not a solitary candidate in the whole south-east.

I don't think there's a more poorly organised party in the country.

lawrencesummers

lawred2 wrote: »

What do you mean hard border? That was the whole point of the withdrawal agreement.

As I said, I’ve been doing a lot of drinking and not familiar with the withdrawal agreement, but it strikes me as a terrible decision to have no government in place while one quarter of the island is exiting the EU.

omega man

The reality is Ireland is actually quite a good place to live, work and raise kids etc.
OK it’s not utopia but not many countries are in reality.
Some of the crap on social media would have you believe we live in some kind of third world nation.

Improvements can be achieved and should be demanded but let’s have a sense of realism. These things take time and substantial investment that can only come from tax payers pockets and sensible government borrowing.

Loafing Oaf

efanton wrote: »

If the vote for FF and FG and to a degree Labour (let's not forget they had a hand in it too), was significantly reduced, and the smaller parties got a bigger share, yes we would have no party capable of forming a government with an outright majority. This seems to work in many European countries, where parties agree common ground, and no party expects to automatically return to government. It would at least temper some of the extremely unpopular taxes, stealth charges, polices that seem to get squeezed through because a single party has an outright majority.
If there was no outright majority would TD's then be forced to work for the common good rather than the party they stand for or look specifically after those that financially support them.

I believe it's nearly 40 years since any party has had an overall majority.

James Brown

omega man wrote: »

The reality is Ireland is actually quite a good place to live, work and raise kids etc.
OK it’s not utopia but not many countries are in reality.
Some of the crap on social media would have you believe we live in some kind of third world nation.

Improvements can be achieved and should be demanded but let’s have a sense of realism. These things take time and substantial investment that can only come from tax payers pockets and sensible government borrowing.

That's your experience and fair enough.
I'm doing grand too. I take a look around though.
I'd no major debts due to the FF boom but I appreciate others did. I certainly paid for 'everybody partied/went mad' depending on which of FF or FG you subscribe to.
Also record breaking numbers of children homeless is a bit of a fly in the 'could be worse' ointment.