Election: Fianna Fáil - pretending we don't remember

Kermit.de.frog

Some people's memories seem a little flaky...mine isn't.

I thought, in the interests of fairness, since there are threads criticising other parties we should have a thread dedicated to the countless lives destroyed or negatively affected in this country by Fianna Fáil's march to national bankruptcy the last time they were in office.

Where to start?

Ireland's finance minister to push for EU, IMF bailout

It's not about being pro anyone else but we should never forget what happened to our country through wreckless mismanagement of our affairs by Fianna Fáil.

It shocks and depresses me that they seem close to being able to form the next government.

I promise a headline a day from 2010 between now and the election.

GooglePlus

Genuine question - are they the same Fianna Fáil?

I often hear people saying the same as yourself. They got us into the 2008 mess etc., so we can't have them in again but is it possible that they have changed internal structures and policies?


The housing bubble bursting was an indirect result of the 2007 crisis that hit the banks in the states, so was it really their fault?

For Forks Sake

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Ireland's finance minister to push for EU, IMF bailout

What bailout said these pair...

Fann Linn

Or maybe FG are so similar, what's the harm?
Children's hospital.
Bailey.
Murphy.
Harris.
National broadband.
Leo.
Etc.
Etc.

seamus

GooglePlus wrote: »

Genuine question - are they the same Fianna Fáil?

Yes. The leader of the party, the deputy leader and many of the front bench were in place during FF's last round in power either as government ministers or other executive positions.

ectoraige

GooglePlus wrote: »

Genuine question - are they the same Fianna Fáil?

I often hear people saying the same as yourself. They got us into the 2008 mess etc., so we can't have them in again but is it possible that they have changed internal structures and policies?

The housing bubble bursting was an indirect result of the 2007 crisis that hit the banks in the states, so was it really their fault?

Yes, they are, an institutional political party like FF takes generations to change no matter what internal restructuring is done.

Being hit by the housing crisis is one thing, but their reaction was to assume ALL debts of the financial institutions who had gambled with our economy.

It was Fianna Fáil who in 2002 removed the need to include social and affordable housing within new developments to allow developers to be able to push up the prices of their exclusives projects and lead to further ghettoisation of socially deprived areas. This was long before any financial crisis and is still a factor in today's housing crisis.

zell12

The White Wolf

I find FF's attempts to paint themselves as the people's party quite contemptuous. I will not forget anyway as I am amongst that generation that got absolutely shafted in this country for a very long time.

Plumbthedepths

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Some people's memories seem a little flaky...mine isn't.

I thought, in the interests of fairness, since there are threads criticising other parties we should have a thread dedicated to the countless lives destroyed or negatively affected in this country by Fianna Fáil's march to national bankruptcy the last time they were in office.

Where to start?

Ireland's finance minister to push for EU, IMF bailout

It's not about being pro anyone else but we should never forget what happened to our country through wreckless mismanagement of our affairs by Fianna Fáil.

It shocks and depresses me that they seem close to being able to form the next government.

I promise a headline a day from 2010 between now and the election.

They were part of the present government, FG had no problems with accepting the support of FF.

Gael23

The locals last year showed that people have forgiven them

is_that_so

GooglePlus wrote: »

Genuine question - are they the same Fianna Fáil?

I often hear people saying the same as yourself. They got us into the 2008 mess etc., so we can't have them in again but is it possible that they have changed internal structures and policies?


The housing bubble bursting was an indirect result of the 2007 crisis that hit the banks in the states, so was it really their fault?

Martin is still there and was there through all of it. He handily got himself Foreign Affairs during the worst of it. The bubble they fed by stoking construction. At one stage IIRC it was at 14% of the economy, almost double an average construction sector. McCreevy did try to put a brake of sorts on spending, muttered a warning and he got dispatched to Europe. So yeah they do own that part of it. They also cost us a packet long-term with benchmarking with no great effort to get any productivity improvements out of it. Ironic that it eventually was a Labour minister in Howlin, who was tasked with PS reform.

_Brian

FF have waited for the penny to drop with voters that FG are no better or worse because they are all the same belly of pups.

This gives them a 50/50 chance of leading the next government.

I for one do not beleive that FF were responsible for the crash, during their last term in government Enda Kenny consistently berated them for lack of spending, to much regulation and budgets that were too conservative.

If FG had been in government the crash would have been the same, the outcome the same. They are the same people and would have made the same decisions.

The major party in government will be either FG or FF, that’s a sure bet. Who will make up the minority team will be more interesting, I expect the greens, I probably fear the greens too.

SF are a professional opposition party, I don’t think even they want to see SF in government.

tom1ie

I've no time for FF and I've no time for FF as they are really two sides of the same coin.
However I'm not giving my vote to those on the looney left who want houses for everyone and tax increases to pay for it.
So who the hell do I vote for?
I'm thinking greens and social democrats as they are the two most centre parties remaining when you take fffg out of the equation.
Am I wrong?

For Forks Sake

GooglePlus wrote: »

Genuine question - are they the same Fianna Fáil?

I often hear people saying the same as yourself. They got us into the 2008 mess etc., so we can't have them in again but is it possible that they have changed internal structures and policies?


The housing bubble bursting was an indirect result of the 2007 crisis that hit the banks in the states, so was it really their fault?

Short answer yes.
Yeah they may put some of the newer TDs like Chambers or MacSharry out as the 'fresh' face of the party but there's no change in reality

List below are TD's who served during the Ahern years, most of them as ministers. That's also not including those who 'retired' in disgrace in 2011 but subsequently had a relative elected to the seat (e.g. Brian/Barry Cowen)

Micheal Martin 1989 - present
Michael McGrath 2007- present
Dara Colleary 2007-present
Thomas Byrne 2007-11. 2016-present
Niall Collins 2007-present
John Curran 2002-2011, 2016 - present
Timmy Dooley 2007-present
Sean Fleming 2007-present
Pat The Cope Gallagher 1981-97, 2002-2009, 2016-present
Sean Haughey 1992-2011, 2016 - present
Billy Kelleher 1997-2019
Michael Moynihan 1997-present
John McGuinness 1997-present
Darragh O'Brien 2007-2011 , 2016 - present
Eamonn O'Cuiv 1997-present
Willie O'Dea 1992-present
Sean O'Fearghail 2002-present
Eamonn Scanlon 2007-2011, 2016-present
Brendan Smith 1992-present
Bobby Aylward 2007-2011. 2015-present

mattser

For Forks Sake wrote: »

What bailout said these pair...

My stomach still turns when I see or hear this.

is_that_so

Just so people don't think FF are getting a raw deal in history, groat(Bertie) from 1997-2003 was economy-wide, from 2003 it was predominantly from construction.

griffin100

Fann Linn wrote: »

Or maybe FG are so similar, what's the harm?
Children's hospital.
Bailey.
Murphy.
Harris.
National broadband.
Leo.
Etc.
Etc.

C'mon, you can't equate any of that with the decades of debt FF landed on the country, the mass emigration, the abject despair and misery their policies caused when they came home to roost and the lives and families destroyed. I'm not saying your list isn't valid, you just cannot equate them.

Looking at the 2010 cabinet when we had FF and the Greens in power, I see a lot of familiar names still on the ballot papers - Martin, Cowen (the even thicker version than we had in 2010), O Cuiv, Hanafin, O'Dea, plus Ryan from the Greens. If they all get elected we could have a ten year reunion with the IMF and the Troika later this year.

zell12

2007 election

Nollog

Nobody is willing to vote for the other small parties so it'll switch between FG and FF until the next do nothing government or crash the entire economy government.

tom1ie

/\/ollog wrote: »

Nobody is willing to vote for the other small parties so it'll switch between FG and FF until the next do nothing government or crash the entire economy government.

So your telling me this country is destined to swap between these bellends for the foreseeable future.
It's depressing really. Someone needs to put together a viable alternative where spending public money is held accountable to individual ministers and money is pumped into infrastructure.

is_that_so

tom1ie wrote: »

So your telling me this country is destined to swap between these bellends for the foreseeable future.
It's depressing really. Someone needs to put together a viable alternative where spending public money is held accountable to individual ministers and money is pumped into infrastructure.

There are no other viable options as both parties have got good at what makes them successful, appealing to the maximum number of voters. Others tend to be too hamstrung by idealistic leanings, which are not widely held.

Plumbthedepths

It's a fake election, FG were happy for to be propped up by FF. Roles will more than likely be reversed in the next GE. The laughable part is some believe the crash would have been different or never happened had FG been at the wheel when the evidence of previous budgets and FG's berating of FF for not spending more contradict that contention.
It will be the same circus just a different cast of clowns running the show.

average_runner

tom1ie wrote: »

So your telling me this country is destined to swap between these bellends for the foreseeable future.
It's depressing really. Someone needs to put together a viable alternative where spending public money is held accountable to individual ministers and money is pumped into infrastructure.

That is what we have done for the last 40 years

Phoebas

_Brian wrote: »

I for one do not beleive that FF were responsible for the crash, during their last term in government Enda Kenny consistently berated them for lack of spending, to much regulation and budgets that were too conservative.
.

So it was FGs fault the whole time!

I thought maybe it was because of external factors in the global economy, but it turns out it was FG the whole time!!

Phoebas

/\/ollog wrote: »

Nobody is willing to vote for the other small parties so it'll switch between FG and FF until the next do nothing government or crash the entire economy government.

The small parties and Inds have more seats than they ever had before.
The problem is that most of them didn't want to go into government.

BarryD2

tom1ie wrote: »

I'm thinking greens and social democrats as they are the two most centre parties remaining when you take fffg out of the equation.
Am I wrong?

You see FF & FG incorporate parts of the Greens and SDs - they aim to be all things to as many people as possible. The SDs are grand but they're a party of two TDs, with two leaders... could be gone tomorrow. The Greens are around longer and I used to vote for them and might still do, but they are increasingly an urban party and many of their admirable policies assume that everyone lives in large towns & cities.

Fann Linn

griffin100 wrote: »

C'mon, you can't equate any of that with the decades of debt FF landed on the country, the mass emigration, the abject despair and misery their policies caused when they came home to roost and the lives and families destroyed. I'm not saying your list isn't valid, you just cannot equate them.

Looking at the 2010 cabinet when we had FF and the Greens in power, I see a lot of familiar names still on the ballot papers - Martin, Cowen (the even thicker version than we had in 2010), O Cuiv, Hanafin, O'Dea, plus Ryan from the Greens. If they all get elected we could have a ten year reunion with the IMF and the Troika later this year.

I took the hit with the pay cuts being a PS so I remember exactly what went on. But as another poster said, FG were only too happy to lie down with them right up until 2 days ago.

So yes, no difference between the two parties as far as I'm concerned.

tjhook

_Brian wrote: »

I for one do not beleive that FF were responsible for the crash, during their last term in government Enda Kenny consistently berated them for lack of spending, to much regulation and budgets that were too conservative.

Would you absolve FG of responsibility if they had been in power for the years that led to the crash? If they had policies such as "If I have it I'll spend it"?

Perhaps any or all of the opposition parties would have left us in the same boat. Maybe in an even worse situation. But that does not absolve FF, who were in power and were calling the shots. No other party has ever left the country in the state they left it.

FF were in power for a full decade leading up tho the crash. If any other party was in power during this period, people would grab the opportunity to lift some of the blame from FF. Maybe the majority of the blame. But no, it was FF all the way.

Having said that, maybe they have changed. But they don't need to, as long as there are people willing to overlook their responsibility for the bankrupting of the country.

Yurt2

I've had a gutfull of FG at this stage. I won't be voting FF, but I suppose I'll put up with them. Another term of FG and I'll probably end up self-immolating on Kildare street like one of those Vietnamese monks.

Plumbthedepths

tjhook wrote: »

Having said that, maybe they have changed. But they don't need to, as long as there are people willing to overlook their responsibility for the bankrupting of the country.

The first people publicly to overlook the responsibility for where the country was back in 2011 was FG who were happy to accept the support of FF for the last 4 years. Bit difficult to try and paint FF as irresponsible and bad when you accept their support. Hypocrisy tbh.

tjhook

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The first people publically to overlook the responsibility for where the country was back in 2011 was FG who were were happy to accept the support of FF for the last 4 years. Bit difficult to try and paint FF as irresponsible and bad when you accept their support. Hypocrisy tbh.

I remember FG being berated for harping on too much about FF's legacy.

There's quite a bit of difference between bankrupting the country and accepting the support of the people who bankrupted the country. The public gave FF sufficient votes that it was difficult/impossible to form a government without their support.

Anyway, I'm sick of this government, I'd love a change. Preferably a government that has an interest in the concerns of the ordinary PAYE worker. But I'm not holding my breath.

jimmycrackcorm

Fann Linn wrote: »

Or maybe FG are so similar, what's the harm?
Children's hospital.
Bailey.
Murphy.
Harris.
National broadband.
Leo.
Etc.
Etc.

The thing about the NBP and NCH is that they'll both be around in decades to come. Ardnacrusha cost a fifth of the country's budget when it was built.

Under FF the health budgets were massively increased by billions annually between the 90s and 2010 yet we still have massive waiting lists. All that money spent largely went on FFs placating the public service pay to win votes.

Those extra billions dwarf the NCH which will probably be used by my great grandchildren 100 years from now.

I also doubt very much that had we a FF government that we would have had the SSM referendum. Martin himself was very slow to back it and the FF core is very conservative.

Loafing Oaf

tjhook wrote: »

Would you absolve FG of responsibility if they had been in power for the years that led to the crash? If they had policies such as "If I have it I'll spend it"?

Perhaps any or all of the opposition parties would have left us in the same boat. Maybe in an even worse situation. But that does not absolve FF, who were in power and were calling the shots. No other party has ever left the country in the state they left it.

Yeah but it takes the edge of animosity towards Fianna Fail. Makes it much more likely that people who rejected FF in 2011 would find their way back to the party in time...

L1011

tom1ie wrote: »

I've no time for FF and I've no time for FF as they are really two sides of the same coin.
However I'm not giving my vote to those on the looney left who want houses for everyone and tax increases to pay for it.
So who the hell do I vote for?
I'm thinking greens and social democrats as they are the two most centre parties remaining when you take fffg out of the equation.
Am I wrong?

Socdems are to the left of Labour, that is their sole reason for existence. OK, that and personality clashes.

_Brian

tjhook wrote: »

Would you absolve FG of responsibility if they had been in power for the years that led to the crash? If they had policies such as "If I have it I'll spend it"?

Perhaps any or all of the opposition parties would have left us in the same boat. Maybe in an even worse situation. But that does not absolve FF, who were in power and were calling the shots. No other party has ever left the country in the state they left it.

FF were in power for a full decade leading up tho the crash. If any other party was in power during this period, people would grab the opportunity to lift some of the blame from FF. Maybe the majority of the blame. But no, it was FF all the way.

Having said that, maybe they have changed. But they don't need to, as long as there are people willing to overlook their responsibility for the bankrupting of the country.

The outcome would have been the same so that tells me they did as good a job as any Irish politician would have done.

I’ll vote for the best candidate in my electoral area even if that happens to be a FF candidate. When another party puts up a better candidate I’ll vote for them.

_Brian

tjhook wrote: »

I remember FG being berated for harping on too much about FF's legacy.

There's quite a bit of difference between bankrupting the country and accepting the support of the people who bankrupted the country. The public gave FF sufficient votes that it was difficult/impossible to form a government without their support.

Anyway, I'm sick of this government, I'd love a change. Preferably a government that has an interest in the concerns of the ordinary PAYE worker. But I'm not holding my breath.

Unless as an ordinary PAYE worker your looking for more taxes, charges and leveis I feel your going to be very disappointed by whoever gets into power.

Sleeper12

GooglePlus wrote:

Genuine question - are they the same Fianna Fáil?

I think the vast majority of FF TDs weren't around 10 years ago. I don't know if that makes them different or not though

Phoebas

Their leader was around - and in the thick of it.

Kermit.de.frog

Voting FF would be like inviting the arsonist who burned down your house back in to the kitchen of your refurbished abode.

Plumbthedepths

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Voting FF would be like inviting the arsonist who burned down your house back in to the kitchen of your refurbished abode.

Or allowing the arsonist who burnt the gaff work for the fire brigade. FG seemed happy enough. Did you miss who was propping up FG?

Kermit.de.frog

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Or allowing the arsonist who burnt the gaff work for the fire brigade. FG seemed happy enough. Did you miss who was propping up FG?

What was the choice?

The Irish people gave a sizeable vote to FF.

With Brexit on the horizon a government had to be formed or there would be no credibility with the EU to bat on our behalf.

The only way to have a government was to have a supply agreement.

That argument is disingenuous and a red herring.

Plumbthedepths

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What was the choice?

The Irish people gave a sizeable vote to FF.

With Brexit on the horizon a government had to be formed or there would be no credibility with the EU to bat on our behalf.

The only way to have a government was to have a supply agreement.

That argument is disingenuous and a red herring.

32nd Dail sat on the 6th of May 2016, the Brexit vote was the 23rd of June. Brexit was not an issue and at the time no one believed it would pass. Your argument is without credibility tbh.
No getting away from the fact FG were happy for FF's support. Also no party in the Dail after Brexit passed did anything other than support the government in its dealings over Brexit.

Kermit.de.frog

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

32nd Dail sat on the 6th of May 2016, the Brexit vote was the 23rd of June. Brexit was not an issue and at the time no one believed it would pass. Your argument is without credibility tbh.

This is ENTIRELY wrong. Enda Kenny's govt was working with the EU months in advance of the referendum to prepare for an exit.

This is a fact.

Read Tony Connelly's book on it.

A lot of preparation went in to the response well before the referendum.

Plumbthedepths

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This is ENTIRELY wrong. Enda Kenny's govt was working with the EU months in advance of the referendum to prepare for an exit.

This is a fact.

Read Tony Connelly's book on it.

A lot of preparation went in to the response well before the referendum.

Well one could argue that FF did the responsible thing and allowed FG to form a minority government and supported them throughout Brexit. I won't be voting for FF but your arguments for not voting for them are quite weak to be honest. There is not a hairs breath between the two parties. They really should have merged in 2016 instead of this pretence rivalry and allow a real opposition form.

James Brown

It's the exact same Fianna Fail. How can I say that? Well every time they ruin the place they swap and replace faces, then ruin it again. So I expect much the same.
However, if I had to choose, they are preferable to FG. That said I'll not be voting for either.

sdanseo

I don't buy the blunt argument that FF single handedly launched us into the abyss.

The financial crisis would have happened under any government because almost all Irish politicians of the late 90s and early 00s would have made similar decisions.

Yes they were economically inept, slow and there were three years of disjointed buffoonery under Cowen.
But FG have shown themselves to be no better. They gave Shane Ross a senior minister position and appointed the grandson of a convicted thief with a silver spoon larger than the Ballymun flats as the man in charge of housing reform for crying out loud.

The only reason there was a crash is because the economy was a success in the first place. The celtic tiger might never have happened in the first place if it wasn't for Haughey. Yes he rode us all and took more than his fair share of cream off the top in the process but it doesn't undo the good either.

Irish politics lacks any real visionaries. There are few with the political will to take strides in any direction.
Just look at infrastructure. Multiple parties have spewed propaganda about metros and undergrounds for decades, then shelve it because there's no money, but at the same time build a hospital for four times the amount it should have cost because some eejit thought it had to be in the city.
There's no joined up thinking or actual, menaningful tackling of problems no matter where you look.

Sinn Féin are not an option. Quite literally a bunch of terrorists. But even at that, If they were capable of getting 50-60 seats maybe it might actually be worth a go, just to see if we could break the wheel that is parish pump, stagnant Irish politics.
Labour, Green, any of the small parties or independents will never be able to get anything done at their current sizes.

So we fall back to the big two. And if it's change vs. more of the same, then it's time for a change.

Seth Brundle

GooglePlus wrote: »

Genuine question - are they the same Fianna Fáil?

As I understand it, FF still have not asked the likes of Pee Flynn for the money that was given to the party through him.
Does that indicate anything?

Seth Brundle

seamus wrote: »

Yes. The leader of the party, the deputy leader and many of the front bench were in place during FF's last round in power either as government ministers or other executive positions.

This is an interesting read from 2011...
We need to talk about money, Micheál
To be taken seriously, Fianna Fáil’s new leader must address some problematic aspects of his party’s culture

Shefwedfan

Are FF the same? No

Is anybody the same after the crash? Well no

FG has their chance long enough now to be honest and have made a real pigs ear of it. The excuse in last election was “oh you can’t vote FF because of the crash”, not that they could do anything

It seems like this election it’s back to the same “oh you can’t vote for them because of the crash”

I’m not saying FF are angels and I don’t know who I will vote for but sorry FG have been a disgrace a number of years now, because insurance fraud with not just 1 but 2 of them. Plus the other one years ago so you end up with 3

The mess of the children hospital. Broadband etc etc etc. The list goes on. Varadkar is useless, like his father is a doctor, he worked as health minister. The idea location for children hospital is in his constituency and he still f**ked it up. Then tried and still trying to hide it

Sorry the list is too long

The propaganda posters on boards as well doesn’t fool anyone. Instead of making any good arguments it always goes back to the crash

You have to remember, FF didn’t make people go out and buy a house for 500k when they had no hope every of paying off the house, crash or not. Or get people to buy 5-6 houses to rent. That was pure greed. M

As I said I don’t know which way I will vote. FF do take some blame for crash but so do a lot of others. Going into another election and just voting in FG is silly in my opinion

Seth Brundle

Gael23 wrote: »

The locals last year showed that people have forgiven them

As I understand it, people frequently vote against government parties in local elections

KiKi III

Could we not have one mega thread on the election ffs?