Annual leave notice period

TaitsClock

Hi, just looking for a bit of advice as my employer is looking for me to provide them with dates on which I want to take my holidays this year.
I emailed them saying I did not give dates last year and that I do not have my year planned out but will of course give them 4 weeks notice on any annual leave requests.
I did also ask whether I would still have the freedom to make changes if I did send dates.

I got a reply this morning saying that everybody has to give them their planned time off for the full year, that it could be changed within reason and to please send them asap

I do not trust the 'within reason' bit and really do not want to potentially commit to certain dates when I have no idea what the year will bring.

My question is really whether I am oblidged to do this considering I have to give 4 weeks notice on any holiday request anyway?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

u140acro3xs7dm

I think they are within their rights to do this, and they have the power to refuse your holidays.

Personally, i would never work for a company that did this. How are you supposed to know what days you may want off in October?

Is it a small company?

TaitsClock

Graysen Future Boar wrote: »

I think they are within their rights to do this, and they have the power to refuse your holidays.

Personally, i would never work for a company that did this. How are you supposed to know what days you may want off in October?

Is it a small company?

This is exactly how I feel about it, good to know im not just being difficult.

Most parents will take annual leave to coincide with school holidays, while those without kids will often book at other times when it is cheaper. It is important for all businesses to plan so that business is not effected due to staff shortage, and to try and accommodate everyone by asking them to book AL early in the year. By all means leave it until a month before you want to go on AL, but the employer may refuse if others have already given notice at the start of the year that they want time off then. Usually companies have a first come first serve on AL.

In relation to AL employee entitlement, op, your employer is not legally required to give you holidays when you want.

JustMe,K

Annual leave is supposed to be taken at mutually agreed dates, so although its a pain, I don't think they are doing anything wrong. I have a friend who used to work in a bank and at the beginning of the year they had to book their leave for the year (they were allowed to hold back a few days for things they could not plan that early) but that may have been branch specific.

In my current company, we are being 'encouraged' to request leave at certain times of the year, previous company didn't care at all until they realised in October that the only person who could do payroll and produce invoices had 7 weeks holiday they were planning to take from mid November onwards which necessitated a huge change in the holiday policy.

aidyhawse

It's so the business can plan its staffing during the summer months, when most people will be off on annual leave for an approx. two week period. It's normal procedure in most businesses.

TaitsClock

I do understand the logic of this when holidays can clash but when I take my holidays really doesn't have an influence on other people's plans. Anyway, ive sent in some dates for the year, for peace sake.
Thank you all for your input and advice, its really appreciated

u140acro3xs7dm

I can understand if multiple people are off at the same time, and it should be first come, first served. A business should plan for being down in numbers at any time. Even if you are not on holiday, you may be sick. A lot of it is a power play by HR and senior management, and while they are trying to be organised, it is actually bad management.

Yeah, you should not be under any great pressure to say when you're taking leave but, the caveat to that should be that if your actual holidays clash with someone who has provided dates already then you're sh1t out of luck. No point saying to them in May "I've booked the last two weeks in July off" if two or three others already booked those dates back in January. You will be told to eff off, and rightly so.

I know someone who worked in a semi-civil service type role which had all sorts of archaic rules about hierarchy and seniority (think Garda, Fire brigade, Army type situation). Only a certain number of slots were available on any given day over the year, so lets say there could be a max of 8 people off on each day. At the beginning of the year, each grade/rank was given the choice of booking their leave in order of superiority, all the way down to the new recruits. So the head honcho gets first dibs, all five of the next rank got to go next, then the senior management followed by middle management etc.

The thing is, you weren't limited by your leave entitlement, so you could book more days than you were entitled to.....if you had 25 days leave you could 'book' 50 days off. It meant that every single Friday and every single Monday (or bank holiday Tuesday) was gone in a flash. Some of the big dogs would just put their name down for all of them, both Fridays and Mondays. There was a miniature black market in trading for those days. Every Thursday there'd be lads hanging around waiting on their superiors to make their mind up about whether they were coming in the following day, followed by a mad scramble when they rubbed their name off the calendar, and other lads pulling rank etc.

When I worked in a major supermarket back in the 90’s, the holiday chart went on the wall after Christmas. Staff were encouraged to book their 2 week holiday in order of seniority. If one had no preference, a two week slot was assigned to them. We all knew that holidays in December were a no no.

While it can be a pain in the butt, they have to ensure adequate cover.

skallywag

You are not obliged to do so, but keep in mind that your employer is equally not obliged to allow you to take leave when you want to.

In my own experience it is always best to get your leave requests in sooner rather than later, as it will normally maximize your chance of having the leave approved at that time. Any reasonable employer will also have no issue with moving the dates around afterwards.

It is not something which I would be awkward about to be honest, seeing as your employer could quite easily (and legally) tell you when you are taking holidays, if they so wished.

Stateofyou

skallywag wrote: »

your employer could quite easily (and legally) tell you when you are taking holidays, if they so wished.

As in, the specific days/week? Would the holiday time not just roll over for a further 6 months if not used because the dates suggested didn't suit?

skallywag

Stateofyou wrote: »

As in, the specific days/week? Would the holiday time not just roll over for a further 6 months if not used because the dates suggested didn't suit?

You are legally entitled to a minimum amount of leave per year, and the employer is legally bound to let you take this leave. That said, they can also dictate when you take it, if they so wish. It does not usually happen of course, as any reasonable employer will allow the staff to take leave at times when it suits. But there is no obligation on an employer to allow the leave to be taken at a time which suits the employee. Hence, if an employer wanted to be intentionally awkward then they could pick out some weeks in the year and insist that the leave is taken at that time.

Stateofyou

skallywag wrote: »

You are legally entitled to a minimum amount of leave per year, and the employer is legally bound to let you take this leave. That said, they can also dictate when you take it, if they so wish. It does not usually happen of course, as any reasonable employer will allow the staff to take leave at times when it suits. But there is no obligation on an employer to all the leave to be taken at a time which suits the employee. Hence, if an employer wanted to be intentionally awkward then they could pick out some weeks in the year an insist that the leave is taken at that time.

Thanks, I didn't know that!

Stateofyou

Stateofyou wrote: »

Thanks, I didn't know that!

A lot of Solicitors still close for holidays to coincide with Court holidays, and require all staff to take two weeks of their AL then, I think it is the first two weeks in August. Also, a lot of companies require staff to take AL between Christmas and New Year. All perfectly legal.

skallywag

True, it is also common place for some factories to have a forced shut down for a week or two, etc.

I think that it may be limited to a certain amount of the leave though, e.g. I do not think an employer could say you must take all of your leave within these 4-5 consecutive weeks, etc. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than myself knows the answer to that.

C3PO

As somebody else mentioned, your employer could, in theory, allocate your holiday dates to you! So, yes, they can insist that you book holidays for the year ahead.

Strumms

It’s unreasonable to expect an employee in January to be able to know when they need to take annual leave throughout the year... a year is a long time and opportunities and indeed requirements don’t present themselves that far in advance. Some leave is required pretty much on spec....The management need a big hot cup of fûcking cop on, lazy stupid twats. MANAGING the holiday roster is part of your job ..as a MANAGER !!!

If in 2 weeks I get told by a friend or relative that on March 2nd they will be in hospital for a day procedure and because of conscious sedation they cannot drive the 20kms home and would I be able to facilitate...barring others already off I’m saying yes I can and expecting that to be approved... if it isn’t...problem..

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

It’s unreasonable to expect an employee in January to be able to know when they need to take annual leave throughout the year... a year is a long time and opportunities and indeed requirements don’t present themselves that far in advance. Some leave is required pretty much on spec....The management need a big hot cup of fûcking cop on, lazy stupid twats. MANAGING the holiday roster is part of your job ..as a MANAGER !!!

If in 2 weeks I get told by a friend or relative that on March 2nd they will be in hospital for a day procedure and because of conscious sedation they cannot drive the 20kms home and would I be able to facilitate...barring others already off I’m saying yes I can and expecting that to be approved... if it isn’t...problem..

Wow. Employers are supposed to facilitate a relative’s travel arrangements.

Strumms

Dav010 wrote: »

Wow. Employers are supposed to facilitate a relative’s travel arrangements.

Nope, supposed to facilitate their employees annual leave requests, why the leave is requested or required, none of their fûcking business.

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

Nope, supposed to facilitate their employees annual leave requests, why the leave is requested or required, none of their fûcking business.

It is their business though. While your AL is statutorily protected, when you take it is not.

Strumms

Dav010 wrote: »

It is their business though. While your AL is statutorily protected, when you take it is not.

None of their business. Im looking for a week off in March because it’s my statutory right, ive 26 days to take and that I want to be these dates to be 5 of them, unless a reasonable reason is given for denial then I will become extremely distant as regards those little extras you’ve become used to, all of a sudden 5pm becomes exit pm regardless of what’s finished or otherwise...

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

None of their business. Im looking for a week off in March because it’s my statutory right, ive 26 days to take and that I want to be these dates to be 5 of them, unless a reasonable reason is given for denial then I will become extremely distant as regards those little extras you’ve become used to, all of a sudden 5pm becomes exit pm regardless of what’s finished or otherwise...

If your contracted hours are until 5pm, you don’t have to work any more. But that does not change the fact that your employer doesn’t have to give you time off when you want it.

Strumms

Dav010 wrote: »

If your contracted hours are until 5pm, you don’t have to work any more. But that does not change the fact that your employer doesn’t have to give you time off when you want it.

Unless it’s refusal due to a ‘legitimate’ business reason, they do...

Mrs OBumble

Strumms wrote: »

Unless it’s refusal due to a ‘legitimate’ business reason, they do...

What law says that?

AulWan

I have a friend working in a labratory setting, something to do with food science.

Anyway, they have to book all annual leave, including single days, six months in advance. No exceptions allowed. Even at that, all bookings were treated as "requests" until approved.

I don't know how the employer got away with it.

AulWan

AulWan wrote: »

I have a friend working in a labratory setting, something to do with food science.

Anyway, they have to book all annual leave, including single days, six months in advance. No exceptions allowed. Even at that, all bookings were treated as "requests" until approved.

I don't know how the employer got away with it.

Why don’t you know?

AulWan

Dav010 wrote: »

Why don’t you know?

"I don't know how they got away with it", in the sense that I don't know why the employees put up with it.

Personally I wouldn't have lasted six months there, especially not when my kids were small, and most of my annual leave went on days off when they got sick.

Strumms

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

What law says that?

The Organisation of Working Time Act, 1997.

FluffPiece

Strumms wrote: »

The Organisation of Working Time Act, 1997.

Which part says an employer cannot refuse annual leave?

Strumms

FluffPiece wrote: »

Which part says an employer cannot refuse annual leave?

I haven’t claimed anywhere that they ‘couldn’t’. There will be always situations where an employer can’t approve...

That said, it’s worth noting...From the relevant legislation....

“The legislation REQUIRES the Employer to consider the Employees need for rest and recreation, and to reconcile their work and family responsibilities when an application is received.”

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

I haven’t claimed anywhere that they ‘couldn’t’. There will be always situations where an employer can’t approve...

That said, it’s worth noting...From the relevant legislation....

“The legislation REQUIRES the Employer to consider the Employees need for rest and recreation, and to reconcile their work and family responsibilities when an application is received.”

The important word is “consider”, this does not say you have a right to AL whenever you want.

This will give you the info you need to inform yourself.

https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/what_you_should_know/leave/annual-leave/

“The employer determines the timing of an employee’s annual leave, taking into consideration work and personal requirements”

Mrs OBumble

AulWan wrote: »

"I don't know how they got away with it", in the sense that I don't know why the employees put up with it.

Personally I wouldn't have lasted six months there, especially not when my kids were small, and most of my annual leave went on days off when they got sick.

I've worked for one company that wouldn't allow annual leave to be used for sickness - either your own or your kids.

Their argument was that the law says AL is for rest and recreation.

daheff

Is there a specific holiday policy in the company? That's what dictates how holidays are booked, how much notice needs to be given etc.

Hoboo

Dav010 wrote: »

The important word is “consider”, this does not say you have a right to AL whenever you want.

This will give you the info you need to inform yourself.

https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/what_you_should_know/leave/annual-leave/

“The employer determines the timing of an employee’s annual leave, taking into consideration work and personal requirements”

You're both right. The employer controls the diary, and has the final decision, but can only deny leave if your attendance is almost critical to a business related matter, or due to staffing needs. They must be seen to be fair and reasonable. You can't deny a parent two weeks off during school holidays for example, unless it's an extraordinary event. That's the basics, but pretty much sums it up..... fair and reasonable.

Hoboo

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I've worked for one company that wouldn't allow annual leave to be used for sickness - either your own or your kids.

Their argument was that the law says AL is for rest and recreation.

They are correct. Likewise if you are sick during AL, once you inform them and get a doctor's note, your AL for the days you were sick is reinstated.

You can use force majeure days too for the above, Google it, sorry haven't time to explain.

Strumms

Dav010 wrote: »

The important word is “consider”, this does not say you have a right to AL whenever you want.

This will give you the info you need to inform yourself.

https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/what_you_should_know/leave/annual-leave/

“The employer determines the timing of an employee’s annual leave, taking into consideration work and personal requirements”

Nobody is claiming that annual leave can be taken ‘whenever you want’, fûck no business can operate like that....

You simply apply for leave that you are entitled to whenever you feel you want/need it... and as the legislation says... the employer needs to take into account work AND personal requirements....

If xxxxx apply for 8-16 May, but their is a training course booked that is mandatory as a boss I’m considering not approving.... then I’m looking at that employee who has has their last request denied also, due to illness and no cover in the team and hasn’t had a break in a number of months, has been flexible with overtime I’m thinking... “ok, you know what, while not ideal, I’m going to approve this holiday, they deserve and NEED it... they can get the credit for this course by doing a CBT... not ideal the classroom environment is better but “PERSONAL requirements need to be of upmost consideration” that’s as per the legislation, as per being a reasonable person and employer.

is_that_so

Worked for a small company where there was a mad rush every January to get dates booked. Never considered this request an imposition. Where there are family members to take into account dates need to be organised well in advance, otherwise I'd imagine a general indication of leave requests should be enough. Found I became a fan of extended weekends, especially around BH and often easier to get.

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

Nobody is claiming that annual leave can be taken ‘whenever you want’, fûck no business can operate like that....

Strumms wrote: »

Nope, supposed to facilitate their employees annual leave requests, why the leave is requested or required, none of their fûcking business.

Strumms wrote: »

Unless it’s refusal due to a ‘legitimate’ business reason, they do...

Strumms, you are saying here that you can take AL whenever you want, you are now contradicting yourself.

AulWan

Hoboo wrote: »

They are correct. Likewise if you are sick during AL, once you inform them and get a doctor's note, your AL for the days you were sick is reinstated.

You can use force majeure days too for the above, Google it, sorry haven't time to explain.

Force majeure is only meant to be used for medical emergencies, and is only a max of 5 days over 3 years.

I used to keep at least 5 days A/L aside per year in case the kids got sick. Thankfully my job did allow us to take annual leave for this (no option to take unpaid leave, or I would have taken it instead). I've taken it for the odd day A/L while I was sick too, rather then go to the GP for a cert for 1/2 days.

Mrs OBumble

Hoboo wrote: »

They are correct. Likewise if you are sick during AL, once you inform them and get a doctor's note, your AL for the days you were sick is reinstated.

And the employee has to take those days as unpaid leave. Losing pay because your kid gof sick - how very "family friendly".

FluffPiece

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

And the employee has to take those days as unpaid leave. Losing pay because your kid gof sick - how very "family friendly".

Unless a company has paid sick leave in place of course. Annual Leave can be replaced with paid sick leave upon a medical cert being produced assuming the employee is within their limits.

Strumms

Dav010 wrote: »

Strumms, you are saying here that you can take AL whenever you want, you are now contradicting yourself.

No contradiction, it’s clear.. an employee can apply for leave as they want / need it... it’s been shown that a legitimate reason needs to be in place for denial... annual leave is not a favor, it’s a legal entitlement.