Apartment heating options

coleen

Hi we are in the process of renovating a one bed apartment.
Kitchen living area 18x20 all one space.
Bathroom/ hallway 18x10 Bedroom 18x12.
It has to be electric heating of some sort. We do have a night meter.
This apartment will be well insulated and walls dry lined. What are the best electric options is it storage heating or is there a more modern option.
The shower will be electric and the water in the kitchen will be heated by an under sink unit. So everything will be electric so we want to try and keep running costs down. Thanks in advance for any advice.

adrian92

I am not sure. Perhaps convector heaters in bedroom and living area. (these can have timers built in to utilize night rate electricity).
Hall - perhaps a small storage heater (again night rate)

Bathroom - not sure - possibly an other storage heater (I think special ones are required for bathrooms)

These are just my thoughts - others may be able to give better suggestions

2011

I am not a fan of storage heaters. I find that they get too hot during the night (when not required) and they release the heat in an uncontrollable manner during the day (when they are required). They are then stone cold in the evening when they are most needed. I also find that they produce a fat dryer heat which is not as nice. This is just my opinion, I know others will disagree.

If this were my apartment I would consider the oil filled radiator type of electric heaters. These produce a similar heat and feel to “normal” radiators. I would wire these heaters through smart controllers allowing me to set timers and schedules and see the various temperatures via an app on my smartphone. I might consider a different type of heater for the bathroom.

antoinolachtnai

Another option is an air-to-air heat pump. There is a thread about this somewhere on the Plumbing and Heating forum.

This requires an outdoor unit so you’d need to have somewhere to put it and you’d need to drill a hole through the wall.

2011

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Another option is an air-to-air heat pump. There is a thread about this somewhere on the Plumbing and Heating forum.

This requires an outdoor unit so you’d need to have somewhere to put it and you’d need to drill a hole through the wall.

Yes, I was thinking about this too.

However it may be difficult to install in an apartment. Also I have found management committees in apartment blocks very difficult to deal with when it comes to the installation of anything on the outside of the building.

None the less it is an option worth exploring.

adrian92

I think, on reflection, the Moderator suggestions are better than mine.

More controllable and minimal installation cost.
Hope that it works out ok

ercork

+1 for an air to air heat pump - assuming the management company allows it.

kramer1

Not all heat pumps require an outside unit, working in a house today where the pump is in a combined unit with the cylinder and the air is ducted in.

2011

kramer1 wrote: »

Not all heat pumps require an outside unit, working in a house today where the pump is in a combined unit with the cylinder and the air is ducted in.

That would use up more space within the apartment which is generally in short supply. It would also reduce the COP.

There are serious practical challenges with retro fitting a heat pump to an apartment. Next there is the issue of capital cost. I would expect this to be so high that it would not be considered a financially viable option.

Has anyone seen this done?

ercork

2011 wrote: »

There are serious practical challenges with retro fitting a heat pump to an apartment. Next there is the issue of capital cost. I would expect this to be so high that it would not be considered a financially viable option.

Has anyone seen this done?

Retrofitting an air to water heat pump would be very costly and invasive and, I agree, would probably not be worth the level of investment. However air to air heat pumps only cost between 1500 and 2000 and can be installed in a few hours. The issue would be whether or not the management company would allow the unit to be attached to the outside of the building or on the balcony.

2011

ercork wrote: »

Retrofitting an air to water heat pump would be very costly and invasive and, I agree, would probably not be worth the level of investment. However air to air heat pumps only cost between 1500 and 2000 and can be installed in a few hours. The issue would be whether or not the management company would allow the unit to be attached to the outside of the building or on the balcony.

Have you ever seen them retrofitted ?

ercork

I got one installed myself a couple of years ago. I don't live in an apartment though - it's a small 2 bed terraced house, about 65m2 so similar heating requirements to an apartment. This is the second winter I've had it and so far I'm really pleased with it. The bills have been way down from when I had a combination of storage heaters and panel heaters. The house is from 2004 so decent spec regarding insulation and windows/doors but certainly not comparable to a new build.

I have a small garden where I was able to install the heat pump up against the back wall - this may not be possible in an apartment building.

LenWoods

coleen wrote: »

Hi we are in the process of renovating a one bed apartment.
Kitchen living area 18x20 all one space.
Bathroom/ hallway 18x10 Bedroom 18x12.
It has to be electric heating of some sort. We do have a night meter.
This apartment will be well insulated and walls dry lined. What are the best electric options is it storage heating or is there a more modern option.
The shower will be electric and the water in the kitchen will be heated by an under sink unit. So everything will be electric so we want to try and keep running costs down. Thanks in advance for any advice.

Some nice electric radiators here which are identical to the normal central heating type,
There oil filled with built in time clock and heating controller
They do special offers on various models each month
https://www.bestheating.ie/electric-heating/electric-designer-radiators.html


I have the non electric version fitted throughout my house;
The surface yo air contact is greater due to there design which helps provide a greater heat output

Currently €75 off this one
https://www.bestheating.ie/milano-aruba-electric-white-horizontal-designer-radiator-635mm-x-1000mm-64346

kramer1

I have seen them retrofitted in two houses with underfloor heating and the fan units outside, the house I'm wiring at the minute is the one with the pump attached to the tank inside. I have no idea how all this is working out financially for the customer, personally I'm pretty sceptical but the heat pump salesman reckons he's doing retrofits all over place, houses and apartments.

2011

ercork wrote: »

I got one installed myself a couple of years ago. I don't live in an apartment though - it's a small 2 bed terraced house, about 65m2 so similar heating requirements to an apartment. This is the second winter I've had it and so far I'm really pleased with it. The bills have been way down from when I had a combination of storage heaters and panel heaters. The house is from 2004 so decent spec regarding insulation and windows/doors but certainly not comparable to a new build.

Very good. Can you post some pictures?

I have a small garden where I was able to install the heat pump up against the back wall - this may not be possible in an apartment building.

This is the part that may not be as straight forward with an apartment. It may mean sacrificing a balcony.

LLewellen Farquarson

Have a look at lucht. You can control from your smartphone, their programmable, and a direct swap for storage heaters.


https://www.smartelectrics.ie/lucht-radiators/

2011

LLewellen Farquarson wrote: »

Have a look at lucht. You can control from your smartphone, their programmable, and a direct swap for storage heaters.


https://www.smartelectrics.ie/lucht-radiators/

Massively over priced in my opinion.

I would prefer to select far cheaper alternatives such as these.

Smart controllers can be added cheaply.

ercork

2011 wrote: »

Very good. Can you post some pictures?



This is the part that may not be as straight forward with an apartment. It may mean sacrificing a balcony.

Yeah. That issue was discussed in this thread a while back - it doesn't look encouraging:

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057991516

I don't have any pictures to hand of my unit but I will try to post a couple in a while. The one I got is a Mitsubishi MSZ-LN. Google it to see a few pictures. LG and Daikin were the other two brands that the installer mentioned.

Before I decided on it I got a quote for an air to water system - it came to about €14,000 and would take about a week to install. Difficult to justify that.

fortyplus

LenWoods wrote: »

Some nice electric radiators here which are identical to the normal central heating type,
There oil filled with built in time clock and heating controller
They do special offers on various models each month
https://www.bestheating.ie/electric-heating/electric-designer-radiators.html


I have the non electric version fitted throughout my house;
The surface yo air contact is greater due to there design which helps provide a greater heat output

Currently €75 off this one
https://www.bestheating.ie/milano-aruba-electric-white-horizontal-designer-radiator-635mm-x-1000mm-64346

I am interested in these electric heating devices, but had a look at the Google Play reviews of the Terma BlueLine app for remote control and these are overwhelmingly poor. Does anyone have direct experience?

Donalde

Kramer1 says:
"Not all heat pumps require an outside unit, working in a house today where the pump is in a combined unit with the cylinder and the air is ducted in. "

Any chance of getting more info on these units? Brand name? supplier? any experience of them in use? etc.

kramer1

Donalde wrote: »

Kramer1 says:
"Not all heat pumps require an outside unit, working in a house today where the pump is in a combined unit with the cylinder and the air is ducted in. "

Any chance of getting more info on these units? Brand name? supplier? any experience of them in use? etc.

No problem, think the heat pump guy is coming round to give us our instructions some day this
Week, I'll get all the information I can off him.

2011

kramer1 wrote: »

No problem, think the heat pump guy is coming round to give us our instructions some day this
Week, I'll get all the information I can off him.

Great stuff, please post what you get here 🙏

kramer1

2011 wrote: »

Great stuff, please post what you get here ðŸ™

No bother, will be interested to see how it works myself

kramer1

Will have more information next week but here's a few photos I took of the unit, which is on site already for some bizarre reason

antoinolachtnai

kramer1 wrote: »

Will have more information next week but here's a few photos I took of the unit, which is on site already for some bizarre reason

This seems to only provide hot water.

https://coolenergyshop.com/products/cool-energy-ecostore-ce-es300-all-in-one-heat-pump-hot-water-system

Unless you took an awful lot of baths, wouldn’t make much sense for an apartment! The initial outlay is very high.

kramer1

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

This seems to only provide hot water.

https://coolenergyshop.com/products/cool-energy-ecostore-ce-es300-all-in-one-heat-pump-hot-water-system

Unless you took an awful lot of baths, wouldn’t make much sense for an apartment! The initial outlay is very high.

The place is getting underfloor heating ran off of it, unless they brought in the wrong one.

wandererz

I renovated a 2 bed apartment a few years ago.
I ripped out the storage heaters as i could not stand them.

Put in engineered wood flooring and under that Calorique electric underfloor heating.
Did this in the lounge, part of the hallway & the bedroom.
Put in ceramic tile in the kitchen & mesh type underfloor heating matt.

Then installed Heatmiser thermostats to control temperature & a Heatmiser timer clock for immersion.
Works off app on phone & via Alexa etc.

Everything toasty all the time.

kramer1

wandererz wrote: »

I renovated a 2 bed apartment a few years ago.
I ripped out the storage heaters as i could not stand them.

Put in engineered wood flooring and under that Calorique electric underfloor heating.
Did this in the lounge, part of the hallway & the bedroom.
Put in ceramic tile in the kitchen & mesh type underfloor heating matt.

Then installed Heatmiser thermostats to control temperature & a Heatmiser timer clock for immersion.
Works off app on phone & via Alexa etc.

Everything toasty all the time.

How does it work out running cost wise compared to storage heaters?

wandererz

kramer1 wrote: »

How does it work out running cost wise compared to storage heaters?

Can't say exactly.
Storage heaters are a no-no for me. I prefer to actually enjoy life without having to resort to sweaters/jumpers indoors & having to boost the heating because the storage heaters have run out of heat by 6pm & then freezing.

I pay about E180/month averaged bill & this covers heating, lighting, immersion, washing machines, fridge, freezer, dishwasher & everything else.

kramer1

wandererz wrote: »

Can't say exactly.
Storage heaters are a no-no for me. I prefer to actually enjoy life without having to resort to sweaters/jumpers indoors & having to boost the heating because the storage heaters have run out of heat by 6pm & then freezing.

I pay about E180/month averaged bill & this covers heating, lighting, immersion, washing machines, fridge, freezer, dishwasher & everything else.

Agreed, life is too short to be dealing with storage heaters

2011

kramer1 wrote: »

How does it work out running cost wise compared to storage heaters?

That will depend on the coefficient of performance (COP). My understanding is that air source heat pumps typically have a COP of 3 to 3.5

A COP of 3 would mean that a given heat pump would produce 3 units of heat energy for every 1 unit of electricity it consumes. This would mean that for the same heat output the heat pump would consume ⅓ of the electricity that the storage heaters would use.

ercork

2011 wrote: »

That will depend on the coefficient of performance (COP). My understanding is that air source heat pumps typically have a COP of 3 to 3.5

A COP of 3 would mean that a given heat pump would produce 3 units of heat energy for every 1 unit of electricity it consumes. This would mean that for the same heat output the heat pump would consume ⅓ of the electricity that the storage heaters would use.

I don't think the setup described by wandererz is powered by a heat pump at all - looks to be plug in electric. So costs should be similar to other on demand electric heating systems.

farmerval

The setup in most modern student accommodation is a storage heater in the kitchen living area and in the hallway with panel heaters in the bedrooms.

The two storage heaters would be dual heaters with a panel heater also installed for instant heat.

Go into any Electrical wholesaler and they will give you the details.

Dimplex and Farho are among the several Irish makes available.

2011

ercork wrote: »

I don't think the setup described by wandererz is powered by a heat pump at all - looks to be plug in electric. So costs should be similar to other on demand electric heating systems.

Yes, you are absolutely correct. My bad.

I thought I was responding to a post that was looking for a comparison of storage heaters V air source heat pumps. However I stand by my post for this comparison.

ercork

2011 wrote: »

Yes, you are absolutely correct. My bad.

I thought I was responding to a post that was looking for a comparison of storage heaters V air source heat pumps. However I stand by my post for this comparison.

I agree. Some of the newer ones quote a COP of 4 or 5 but realistically I would say it is closer to what you said.

kramer1

Was round in a 1 bed apartment today, with the heat pump guys, pump does hot water and five or six aluminium radiators. Apartment is Ber A2. Lads reckon a six grand install cost for the pumps, rads etc. And a frankly unbelievable running cost of 120 euro per year. Have photos but can't figure out how to post them at the minute, long day

kramer1

Here we go

2011

kramer1 wrote: »

And a frankly unbelievable running cost of 120 euro per year. Have photos but can't figure out how to post them at the minute, long day

I am a big fan of heat pumps, but that sounds a little too good to be true. It would be nice to see the calculation behind that.

kramer1

2011 wrote: »

I am a big fan of heat pumps, but that sounds a little too good to be true. It would be nice to see the calculation behind that.

Agreed, sounds like nonsense