Apartment Vs House

mohm.kamal

Hi


I have a budget which can afford a new 2-bedoom apartment in a very decent area in D18 nearby my kids school and next to the LUAS and with the same budget I can get a 3-bedroom house in D15 which is far away from my kids school, and my work.


So what do you think? I have only 1 girl and a new baby is coming in the way.

charlietheminxx

I presume this is for buying and not renting OP?

For a family I would always go with the house, the extra space would be needed as the children get older. Could you change your daughter's school? Are you planning any more children? If your new baby is a boy, I can't imagine them sharing a room in the apartment when they are teenagers.

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/2-kilcross-square-sandyford-dublin-18/4341928

Similar price to a new two-bedroom apartment and only a small compromise.

House trumps everything when you have children.

What does your partner think?

mohm.kamal

Yeah I'm talking about buying, I'm First time buyer. I can change the school but we're not from Ireland and my kid is kind of introvert and have problems getting into new friendship with other kids, so this would be a huge change - after the relocation from our country to Ireland - for her that I don't want to risk.

Yeah, the coming baby is a boy, but my kid is only 5 now, so I suppose they can share the room for the next, like 6, 7 years?

mohm.kamal

mariaalice wrote: »

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/2-kilcross-square-sandyford-dublin-18/4341928

Similar price to a new two-bedroom apartment and only a small compromise.

House trumps everything when you have children.

What does your partner think?

Yeah but this won't be eligible for HTB from revenue, so it will end up paying 325K for 70sqm house. The apartment I'm targeting is 86sqr for 400k

Creamy Goodness

the HTB isn't the be all and end all.

You need to buy the right property for your needs, not just because you can get 20k off the price. Yes whilst it's a nice incentive 20k over the term of a mortgage isn't a whole lot and certainly not something I'd be putting my family into the wrong type of property for. The apartment might be liable for management fees, say roughly 2k a year, within 10 years that's the same as the HTB and you'll still owe it as long as you live there.

IMO an apartment is not an ideal place to raise kids.

Claw Hammer

Location, location, location.

Idbatterim

mohm.kamal wrote: »

Hi


I have a budget which can afford a new 2-bedoom apartment in a very decent area in D18 nearby my kids school and next to the LUAS and with the same budget I can get a 3-bedroom house in D15 which is far away from my kids school, and my work.


So what do you think? I have only 1 girl and a new baby is coming in the way.

do you have a car ? that commute and the tolls etc will be a joke! What is your max budget? are you working and if so, where? the logistics in this city, with appalling transport are significant!

mohm.kamal

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

the HTB isn't the be all and end all.

You need to buy the right property for your needs, not just because you can get 20k off the price. Yes whilst it's a nice incentive 20k over the term of a mortgage isn't a whole lot and certainly not something I'd be putting my family into the wrong type of property for. The apartment might be liable for management fees, say roughly 2k a year, within 10 years that's the same as the HTB and you'll still owe it as long as you live there.

IMO an apartment is not an ideal place to raise kids.

But the question is; would you replace a nice 86sqr apartment in D18 with access to LUAS and nearby your kid school, your work and your friends to go to a home which is 20KM far away from everything?


I just think loudly, but from what I see everyday, commuting with a car/bus or even using any 4-wheels won't be nice in the coming few years. I'm coming from one of the most congested cities in the world and I know the pain of commuting in a congested streets

partyguinness

Personally with a small family etc I would run a mile from an apartment- service charges, non compliant tenants and freeholders, noisy tenants and lack of space and general feeling of claustrophobia.

It is a conundrum being next to the school.

Creamy Goodness

mohm.kamal wrote: »

But the question is; would you replace a nice 86sqr apartment in D18 with access to LUAS and nearby your kid school, your work and your friends to go to a home which is 20KM far away from everything?


I just think loudly, but from what I see everyday, commuting with a car/bus or even using any 4-wheels won't be nice in the coming few years. I'm coming from one of the most congested cities in the world and I know the pain of commuting in a congested streets

Only you can really answer that question though really.

I think you need to open your search criteria a bit, a post above gave you a house in Sandyford not a million miles away from your new-build apartment. Whilst it may not be exactly what you thought of when purchasing property, it's a better option in my view than an apartment.

Idbatterim

partyguinness wrote: »

Personally with a small family etc I would run a mile from an apartment- service charges, non compliant tenants and freeholders, noisy tenants and lack of space and general feeling of claustrophobia.

It is a conundrum being next to the school.

YEAH! I am not even going to get into the endless apartment related issues I have had NEVER AGAIN! I could write a book on it

Hell on earth some of them here in dublin!

mohm.kamal

Idbatterim wrote: »

YEAH! I am not even going to get into the endless apartment related issues I have had NEVER AGAIN! I could write a book on it

Hell on earth some of them here in dublin!

Sorry for the silly question; What is the advantage of a house over apartment other than more space and backyard? and what's the disadvantages of an apartment?

Idbatterim

mohm.kamal wrote: »

Sorry for the silly question; What is the advantage of a house over apartment other than more space and backyard? and what's the disadvantages of an apartment?

ok, in a house, at least noise can only come from one or two sides, in apartments, it can come from everywhere. The communal areas like corridors in some blocks are a disgrace. there can be fire issues with the apartments, issues with the roofs and leaks etc. You mentioned sandyford, I saw this the other day on myhome.ie The thing is with a third kid on the way, would you not be better off with a third bedroom? worse case scenario, you buy now and in a few years are stuck in negative equity and cant move to a suitably sized place....

Some would deem the lack of outside maintenance an advantage of apartments. Years ago, people would have also said they are easier to heat etc, but new houses have such good insulation, that argument is redundant...

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/alexandra-court-dundrum-dublin-14/4381807

o1s1n

mohm.kamal wrote: »

Sorry for the silly question; What is the advantage of a house over apartment other than more space and backyard? and what's the disadvantages of an apartment?

In an apartment (and in some townhouses) you can have someone living over you.

So you've the extra noise from that. I've a couple of friends I stay with in Amsterdam in a townhouse over Christmas and the noise from upstairs would drive you mad.

There was a newborn baby in the room over us, so we were woken up intermittently with crying all through the night.

Claw Hammer

mohm.kamal wrote: »

Sorry for the silly question; What is the advantage of a house over apartment other than more space and backyard? and what's the disadvantages of an apartment?

The main issue with apartments are that they don't hold value as well as houses do, there is more communal sharing so more contact with neighbours, issues with external play areas for children, parking issues, high service charges to maintain lifts and security gates along with transient neighbours and often noise issues.

mohm.kamal

Idbatterim wrote: »

ok, in a house, at least noise can only come from one or two sides, in apartments, it can come from everywhere. The communal areas like corridors in some blocks are a disgrace. there can be fire issues with the apartments, issues with the roofs and leaks etc. You mentioned sandyford, I saw this the other day on myhome.ie The thing is with a third kid on the way, would you not be better off with a third bedroom? worse case scenario, you buy now and in a few years are stuck in negative equity and cant move to a suitably sized place....

Some would deem the lack of outside maintenance an advantage of apartments. Years ago, people would have also said they are easier to heat etc, but new houses have such good insulation, that argument is redundant...

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/alexandra-court-dundrum-dublin-14/4381807

Thank you all for your replies. I really see your points and they are all valid to be honest. I'm just in this confusion and tries to get information to make an informed decision

The Real Ramona

Your child is still very young and should adapt to changing schools very quickly. It is always easier to make friends in a new area when you have kids too so that should help you .

It's amazing how fast 7 years will come around and you'll need the extra bedroom to separate your son and daughter in their teens.

House all the way!

mohm.kamal

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The main issue with apartments are that they don't hold value as well as houses do, there is more communal sharing so more contact with neighbours, issues with external play areas for children, parking issues, high service charges to maintain lifts and security gates along with transient neighbours and often noise issues.

Yeah, I totally agree with that, thank you

Zulu

With a family, I wouldn't consider the apartment.

Idbatterim

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/143-sandyford-view-dublin-18-dublin/4394582

the likes of this would be the only thing I would every consider , if buying a house wasnt an option, or there was a serious compromise in house location. Penthouse apartment with huge private rooftop terrace. Could be a bit scary with young kids though...

LirW

I've been raised in continental apartments and have a soft spot for them, I also don't think they're a bad place to raise children.
The issue is that apartments in Ireland are not built with families in mind and while 89sqm is a decent floor space and more than ex-corporate houses have, the way apartment complexes are run here would put me off if I'd be looking for a place as family.
The maintenance charges are usually pretty high and can vary. Sinking funds can lead to huge disparities between residents down the line. If it turns out the walls between units are paper-thin, this will impact your privacy and you and your children might end up walking on eggshells.

Another thing I'd consider is that you're about to commit financially to something you'll pay for the next decades. If you plan to sell in a few years, consider the situation that you might not be able to for whatever reason (bad recession for example). You are about to have two children of the opposite sex, I would strongly recommend to commit to a 3-bed. My kids are boy and girl too, 6 year age gap and the oldest is heading into puberty. He values his privacy a lot right now. Especially with a girl, once she experiences all the ups and downs puberty brings, including menstruation, a private room away from her brother would be preferable. I get people can always manage, just giving my perspective here.

When we moved, my son was also 5 and we moved into our house 18 months later, so he had to change school after a year. While I did have the same concerns you have, children will cope with proper support from parents and school.

In your situation I would simply expand my search into other parts of Dublin, like Tallaght, 350k should get you a 3bed there.
Don't make a rushed decision and consider all options keeping a growing family in mind.

Good luck with your search, I know it's daunting but it'll be all worth it.

Redser87

I'd go for a house every time. There are some really good schools in D15 and children are generally much more resilient than you'd expect. A house with even a small garden is much better for your children having friends over than an apartment with communal spaces. Is there any option for flexi time or moving to a different location with your work?

mohm.kamal

Thank you all for all the replies. One last concern, don't you share with me that the traffic will be heavily congested in the coming years? Taking into consideration young professionals like me who are relocating everyday to Ireland, especially Dublin?


In my country we're 17 millions in the city, but it's a totally different story. We have 5 subway lines, hundreds of bridges and tunnels and I don't think it would be feasible to have the same setup here in Dublin at least in the coming 10 years.



I do have a big concern towards commuting, I just was wasting around ~3hrs of my day everyday in the car because of congestion and don't want to repeat this again, so having an apartment next to the LUAS isn't a big advantage?

Thoie

Having lived in an apartment (without children), it's not something I'd fancy with kids. One big thing I saw with my neighbours is the complete lack of places in Irish apartments to leave prams/buggies/tricycles/bikes as they get older, let alone a lot of their other "stuff". Take a look at the apartment plans, with dimensions if available, and see where you would keep a pram.

In contrast, family abroad lived in apartments with children, and there were specific places to keep prams, there was additional storage in the basement, etc.

charlietheminxx

mohm.kamal wrote: »

Thank you all for all the replies. One last concern, don't you share with me that the traffic will be heavily congested in the coming years? Taking into consideration young professionals like me who are relocating everyday to Ireland, especially Dublin?


In my country we're 17 millions in the city, but it's a totally different story. We have 5 subway lines, hundreds of bridges and tunnels and I don't think it would be feasible to have the same setup here in Dublin at least in the coming 10 years.



I do have a big concern towards commuting, I just was wasting around ~3hrs of my day everyday in the car because of congestion and don't want to repeat this again, so having an apartment next to the LUAS isn't a big advantage?

Congestion is definitely a concern for all of us. Do you work in Dublin 18? Have you looked into buses? Or getting a train and then luas? You definitely have options that don't involve you sitting in your car. Besides, you may change jobs.

hmmm

An issue you'll always have with asking questions like this on here is Irish people are not used to apartments - it's the opposite to many other parts of the world. So it's always "house house house", and bedrooms everywhere, even if it means commuting for 3 hours a day or living in a poor area. We also have an obsession with gardens, as if the ability to have the occasional game of kick-the-ball in your own garden is the most important thing in the world.

I've lived in plenty of semi-detached houses with worse sound proofing than apartments. Similarly I've lived in bad areas and good areas, and I know where I'd like my kids to grow up. I've also seen the impact of multi-hour commutes on people and their health.

Fia11

If you move to a new build house in a development you will most likely be moving in at the same time as lots of other young families, which might make things easier on your child.

I would caution against making a decision weighted heavily on where you work at the moment, it's relatively likely that you will end up changing jobs/the location of your current job may change.

Best of luck with the move.

mohm.kamal

hmmm wrote: »

An issue you'll always have with asking questions like this on here is Irish people are not used to apartments - it's the opposite to many other parts of the world. So it's always "house house house", and bedrooms everywhere, even if it means commuting for 3 hours a day or living in a poor area. We also have an obsession with gardens, as if the ability to have the occasional game of kick-the-ball in your own garden is the most important thing in the world.

I've lived in plenty of semi-detached houses with worse sound proofing than apartments. Similarly I've lived in bad areas and good areas, and I know where I'd like my kids to grow up. I've also seen the impact of multi-hour commutes on people and their health.

Yeah, I agree that this might be the norm here in Ireland, but like you, I have been raised up in a 70sqm apartment all my life.

mohm.kamal

What about the value of the property, take an example of a recession; wouldn't an apartment in D18 next to the LUAS be more attractive for rent or sale than any other house far away?


God forbid, but if this happens, would the first unit to be sold are the houses and apartments in the nice areas next to good LUAS stops and amenities?


Comparing this apartment with a 4-bedroom house in Lucan, what would be mostly valuable in bad times?


Thanks again for having this discussed

mohm.kamal

Fia11 wrote: »

If you move to a new build house in a development you will most likely be moving in at the same time as lots of other young families, which might make things easier on your child.

I would caution against making a decision weighted heavily on where you work at the moment, it's relatively likely that you will end up changing jobs/the location of your current job may change.

Best of luck with the move.

Thanks!

Cultural ideas about space and privacy have a lot to do with it and possibly something that is difficult for Irish people to understand.

charlietheminxx

mohm.kamal wrote: »

What about the value of the property, take an example of a recession; wouldn't an apartment in D18 next to the LUAS be more attractive for rent or sale than any other house far away?

For rent yes, for sale no - if the last recession is anything to go by. Houses held their value a bit better than apartments. People were also reluctant to commit to purchasing where there would be management fees. A lot of families got stuck in apartments too small for their growth, I think it's one of the reasons many Irish people would go for the bigger property - if you're in serious negative equity and can't sell up, at least it's big enough for your family to live in.

hmmm

mariaalice wrote: »

Cultural ideas about space and privacy have a lot to do with it and possibly something that is difficult for Irish people to understand.

I've just seen this for the first time and it's amazing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_in_Europe

pwurple

Yes, agree on a forum like this, people won't have experienced a childhood in an apartment and the benefits. I live abroad in apartments, and they were perfect for families. Relatively soundproof, well located with good amenities. A nice sense of community. Millions, if not Billions of people raise families in apartments. Done right, they are heat efficient cosy places to live.

The main disadvantage to houses is having to be your own management company, clearing gutters, unblocking drains, painting and maintaining the exterior and and land/access. With an apartment you pay your management fee and it's all done for you.

It's all about location. If it's located where you need it to be, go for it.

mohm.kamal

hmmm wrote: »

I've just seen this for the first time and it's amazing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_in_Europe

Interesting! only 4% lives in apartment here!

charlietheminxx

pwurple wrote: »

Yes, agree on a forum like this, people won't have experienced a childhood in an apartment and the benefits. I live abroad in apartments, and they were perfect for families. Relatively soundproof, well located with good amenities. A nice sense of community. Millions, if not Billions of people raise families in apartments. Done right, they are heat efficient cosy places to live.

The problem is that Ireland's apartments often aren't done right for family living. It's something we have to work on, and it will be needed in the future, but seeing problems with existing apartment developments in Dublin would put me right off. We have a lot to learn about proper apartment construction and corresponding amenities.

Idbatterim

oh yeah certainly, its Irish apartments that are the problem. totally different kettle of fish on the continent!

dancingqueen

mohm.kamal wrote: »

Sorry for the silly question; What is the advantage of a house over apartment other than more space and backyard? and what's the disadvantages of an apartment?

Our upstairs neighbours have a 15 year old boy sharing a room with his 3 year old sister. We can hear their chats, we can hear them go to the bathroom and we can hear their child screaming 24 hours a day. When someone leaves the block all the doors slam, wakes kids up, kids playing in corridors, people coming home late - banging doors, paper thin walls, bad insulation, the list goes on.

It is a bad idea to raise kids in apartments. For the kids, and for everyone else in the block too.

Regarding management fees, a lot of new estates have them, but often less than an apartment that might have a lift etc to be maintained & common areas cleaned. I live in an apartment as a single occupier and it is great to be able to so easily lock up, go away, and not worry too much about security. The estate where I live is a mix of housing and apartments, and all pay a fairly hefty management fee for the good level of landscape maintenance.

LirW

Idbatterim wrote: »

oh yeah certainly, its Irish apartments that are the problem. totally different kettle of fish on the continent!

That was my point earlier on, apartments planned right into a traditionally house-heavy society and many with the prospect of renting out.
If I'd have the choice I'd pick an apartment any day if the spec is right. Like my grandparents apartments, a solid 60s build, 95sqm and 2 bedrooms (my dad was an only child), it's an amazing apartment with loads of space and convenience, built in an area where it is the norm.

I think it's a huge issue that there aren't many 3bed apartments to begin with, the apartments don't come with appropriate storage units, sinking funds are a big problem, no family-friendly infrastructure for kids to bond and hang out or conveniently taking the kids to the playground. I'm not a believer in the whole "kids need a garden" narrative.
When spending 400k on it, the decision should just be as informed as possible. If a 90sqm 2bed is working for OPs family is up to them at the end of the day, I know many families that make it work with bigger kids, no problem.

Anyway, to answer OPs question:
Anything close to the Luas will always be sought after, if not for private individuals, then from investors. Since it is a new-build and nobody knows yet how the complex will establish itself, that is an uncertain factor.
Apartments probably don't hold value as well as a 4bed house with garden in a settled area but there are so many variables, it's hard to say.

Commute is a very valid point to be concerned about, it was the main reason for us to leave Dublin in the first place and a huge factor of why I don't fancy going back even if I'd have the money.

OP, where do you work? People can maybe make other suggestions within your budget if we know where you have to go.

dancingqueen

dancingqueen wrote: »

Our upstairs neighbours have a 15 year old boy sharing a room with his 3 year old sister. We can hear their chats, we can hear them go to the bathroom and we can hear their child screaming 24 hours a day. When someone leaves the block all the doors slam, wakes kids up, kids playing in corridors, people coming home late - banging doors, paper thin walls, bad insulation, the list goes on.

It is a bad idea to raise kids in apartments. For the kids, and for everyone else in the block too.

A decent quality development will have good heat & sound insulation. In a lot of European cities children are raised perfectly successfully in apartments. It’s shoddy Tiger development in Ireland that has given them a bad reputation. My last neighbours where I live were a family of lively young boys, no sound issues from them.

awec

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Location, location, location.

Bad advice IMO.

People say location trumps everything because problems with a house can usually be fixed with renovations, extensions etc.

This does not apply to an apartment.

OP - I would not like to live as a family of 4 in a 2 bed Irish apartment. You will go insane. In reality, 2 bed apartments here are designed for 2 people.

pwurple

charlietheminxx wrote: »

The problem is that Ireland's apartments often aren't done right for family living. It's something we have to work on, and it will be needed in the future, but seeing problems with existing apartment developments in Dublin would put me right off. We have a lot to learn about proper apartment construction and corresponding amenities.

I think you are mostly correct, but this is slowly changing. There are some apartment blocks which are built for families I don't specifically know about the apartment the OP is looking at, but take this one for example
https://theelysian.ie/
An acre of interior parkland, all soundproofed, some parking, a supermarket and doctors practice on the ground floor.

I've lived in an apartment myself in ireland for years which was a former cinema and fully soundproofed to that level.

dancingqueen

Deleted User wrote: »

A decent quality development will have good heat & sound insulation. In a lot of European cities children are raised perfectly successfully in apartments. It’s shoddy Tiger development in Ireland that has given them a bad reputation. My last neighbours where I live were a family of lively young boys, no sound issues from them.

Lucky you. We live below the devil incarnated. Every time her mother goes out on the balcony for a cigarette she wallops the door and screams until she goes back in. She roars in the night, she throws things down on top of us, she screams outside our door... I can't even tell you the extent of it. We are wits end to be honest. Apartment living is not for everyone. We are looking at getting out ASAP (when the needle in the haystack finally shows up)

Idbatterim

dancingqueen wrote: »

Lucky you. We live below the devil incarnated. Every time her mother goes out on the balcony for a cigarette she wallops the door and screams until she goes back in. She roars in the night, she throws things down on top of us, she screams outside our door... I can't even tell you the extent of it. We are wits end to be honest. Apartment living is not for everyone. We are looking at getting out ASAP (when the needle in the haystack finally shows up)

exactly the same issues I have had, hell on earth. some apartments will be a lot better than others. But I wouldnt touch one, unless I had no other choice.

Tiddlypeeps

mohm.kamal wrote: »

Interesting! only 4% lives in apartment here!

The Irish hate apartments, it's a combination of factors. Firstly there is a stigma attached to apartments in general, this likely stems back to the first major apartment projects in the country being social housing which turned out to be disastrous. Secondly there is a bit of a feedback loop due to this lack of interest, builders don't know how to build apartments well in this country which results in even less interest so it's difficult for progress to be made in this area.



It's possible building quality has gone up in the last number of years, but it certainly used to be that apartment walls were made of paper. Zero effort was often put in to sound proofing. I live in an apartment in Toronto and I can't hear a peep from any of my neighbours and my bedroom wall is connected to an apartment with a new born baby so it's not like I'm just lucky to have quiet neighbours. In contrast I've been in many Irish apartments where you can literally hear the people next door or upstairs talking, never mind doing anything actually loud. If you search the history of the accommodation forum you will find many threads of people trying to deal with noisy neighbours and almost losing their minds. The neighbours weren't even necessarily that bad, but sound passing through an unsound proofed floor/ceiling is almost amplified to the apartment below.


Even if you end up blessed with quiet neighbours the fact you have kids, who will inevitably be relatively loud, you could have neighbours pretty much harassing you to keep it down. You end up either walking on egg shells and limiting your children playing or you put up with being constantly nagged by a neighbour.


Saying that, people who have these kinds of negative experiences are likely in the minority but it's still a big risk to take with a purchase as large as it is.

mirrorwall14

The only way I’d buy an apartment in Ireland is if I had lived for an extended period in the block itself so I’d know what I was getting into. Particularly in relation to sound proofing

Marcusm

mohm.kamal wrote: »

Thank you all for all the replies. One last concern, don't you share with me that the traffic will be heavily congested in the coming years? Taking into consideration young professionals like me who are relocating everyday to Ireland, especially Dublin?


In my country we're 17 millions in the city, but it's a totally different story. We have 5 subway lines, hundreds of bridges and tunnels and I don't think it would be feasible to have the same setup here in Dublin at least in the coming 10 years.



I do have a big concern towards commuting, I just was wasting around ~3hrs of my day everyday in the car because of congestion and don't want to repeat this again, so having an apartment next to the LUAS isn't a big advantage?

And these are the critical points. You need to weigh up the additional time away from your family to accommodate your commute. I can give an (extreme) example from a colleague (Irish) in London. They lived in a (very nice) 2 bed apartment of no more than 70sq m up to their third child - the eldest was 5 at this stage - prior to moving to a 300 sq m (yes, 3500 sq ft) house to be near to where that child (and eventually all 4 of those children) would go to primary school. There’s no need to conform to the nativist desire for a 3 bed semi if you do so does not agree with how you want to live your life. Does your wife/husband/partner want to be separated from you for and additional 2-3 hours a day to have a small garden which many people don’t use.

Suit yourself, not what suits other people.

Mad_maxx

I'd happily live in an apartment in a prime location if it cost no more than a house in a lesser location, other half would never agree however

mohm.kamal

Thank you all for your feedback, all your replies were very helpful and I'm grateful for this