GE 2020: A left wing block

markodaly

Michael Taft, from UNITE, did an interview with Pat Kenny on Friday, indicating his support for a left-wing coalition of sorts to be formed before this year's General Election.

They would present a common policy platform and manifesto and if given the numbers take up power.
This would be, if successful, the first time in the state's history that neither FG or FF would be in power.

However, it does present difficulties. If the likes of Paul Murphy cannot agree with PBP and his kin, how can he agree with SF and Labour?
Will SF cool their jets on their Irish Nationalism, something traditional left-wing parties hate.
What about Labour, the old read guard of the Irish center left?
Where could the Greens sit?

It does raise an interesting question though. There is a bit of a narrative going about that if FF get back into power it will be the fault of FG.
However, wouldn't this be really the fault of the other alternatives?

FG can rightly be blamed for losing votes to other parts, but how can they be balmed to lose their votes to FF exclusively, when these voters take a pass on the alternatives on the left. Surely it is the fault of these parties to lose these votes to FF? Why are these votes going to FF and not SF, Labour etc.... What are the left going to do about this?

In my mind, it's self-evident. Time and time again, the Irish left preach about a left alternative, but when push comes to shove their shy away from power and prefer to be ideologically pure, sitting the ditch, rather than make compromises and go into power with similarly minded parties and people? The aftermath of GE 2016 is still there for all to see and remember.

Anyway, the link is here.
It was on the Pat Kenny show, on the 10th of Jan, about an hour and a half in, if I recall.
https://www.newstalk.com/listen-back

suicide_circus

The left has always been fractured and is notorious for in-fighting as you have a small numbers of zealots seeking ideological purity over practical workable policies.

As i see it, most people are actually somewhat on the left economically; in favour of reasonable state welfare and healthcare etc with big business being regulated and prividing proportional contributions to the society they operate in.

But for some reason this outlook is no longer compatible with centrist or even (gasp!) small "c" conservative social values held by many; tough on crime, reasonable immigration policies (or any policy at all), opposition to the embracing of fringe identity politics.

Mad_maxx

markodaly wrote: »

Michael Taft, from UNITE, did an interview with Pat Kenny on Friday, indicating his support for a left-wing coalition of sorts to be formed before this year's General Election.

They would present a common policy platform and manifesto and if given the numbers take up power.
This would be, if successful, the first time in the state's history that neither FG or FF would be in power.

However, it does present difficulties. If the likes of Paul Murphy cannot agree with PBP and his kin, how can he agree with SF and Labour?
Will SF cool their jets on their Irish Nationalism, something traditional left-wing parties hate.
What about Labour, the old read guard of the Irish center left?
Where could the Greens sit?

It does raise an interesting question though. There is a bit of a narrative going about that if FF get back into power it will be the fault of FG.
However, wouldn't this be really the fault of the other alternatives?

FG can rightly be blamed for losing votes to other parts, but how can they be balmed to lose their votes to FF exclusively, when these voters take a pass on the alternatives on the left. Surely it is the fault of these parties to lose these votes to FF? Why are these votes going to FF and not SF, Labour etc.... What are the left going to do about this?

In my mind, it's self-evident. Time and time again, the Irish left preach about a left alternative, but when push comes to shove their shy away from power and prefer to be ideologically pure, sitting the ditch, rather than make compromises and go into power with similarly minded parties and people? The aftermath of GE 2016 is still there for all to see and remember.

Anyway, the link is here.
It was on the Pat Kenny show, on the 10th of Jan, about an hour and a half in, if I recall.
https://www.newstalk.com/listen-back

FF are left wing, Michael Martin has been unambiguously left both economically and socially in everything he has said since becoming leader.

FG are centre left

Wanderer78

Mad_maxx wrote:

FF are left wing, Michael Martin has been unambiguously left both economically and socially in everything he has said since becoming leader.

Hahaha, no they're not, and it's clearly obvious they're not.

A left leaning government in Ireland, that ll never happen, it ll always be some iteration of ff and/or fg

Eric Cartman

Paul murphy organised trapping joan burton in her car with his unemployed hooligan force, labour and pbp do not see eye to eye and will not. Thankfully the hard left is so fractured they constantly take votes and resources from each other and will never form a government or part of one

endacl

It’ll all be fun and games till the People’s Front of Judaea get involved..

Augme

Sinn Fein, labour, greens, soc Dems and and potentially a couple of independents would all be close enough in policy to form a working party in pretty much any other European country.

The problem is this is Ireland and most of the politicians first priority is themselves and their own ego. I don't think our parties can agree to comprise and behave in an adult way. I think sinn Fein would be the hardest party to get comprise with.

I could easily see labour, greens and Soc Dems getting a coalition together a lot easier but they will never get the numbers.

Paul Murphy specifically set up his new party because he wants to see a more United left and realised that will never happen with PBP et all.

The far left like PBP, SWP will always be left on the outside as their ideas will never be desired by most people.

Mad_maxx

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Hahaha, no they're not, and it's clearly obvious they're not.

A left leaning government in Ireland, that ll never happen, it ll always be some iteration of ff and/or fg

FF are a high public spending party, always have been unless forced not to

Under Michael Martin, they are as socially Liberal as Labour or the greens

meeeeh

Mad_maxx wrote: »

FF are a high public spending party, always have been unless forced not to

Under Michael Martin, they are as socially Liberal as Labour or the greens

FF are populist party and have very little in common with true left parties. Left is socially liberal as per their beliefs while FF became socially liberal-ish when majority of population shifted that way. That being said you need to be pragmatic and able to compromise to govern. Ideological purity of true left believers makes that impossible. Even if they ever got into power they would probably fall out with each other before the first government session.

Anyway it's never good when country is run by ideologically pure.

Phoebas

markodaly wrote: »

Michael Taft, from UNITE, did an interview with Pat Kenny on Friday, indicating his support for a left-wing coalition of sorts to be formed before this year's General Election.

UNITE were major supporters of the Right2Change left wing alliance that fought the 2016 GE and were reasonably successful, returning 32 TDs.

The problem was that they couldn't follow that success and go into government because that would involve compromise.

Mad_maxx

meeeeh wrote: »

FF are populist party and have very little in common with true left parties. Left is socially liberal as per their beliefs while FF became socially liberal-ish when majority of population shifted that way. That being said you need to be pragmatic and able to compromise to govern. Ideological purity of true left believers makes that impossible. Even if they ever got into power they would probably fall out with each other before the first government session.

Anyway it's never good when country is run by ideologically pure.

FF believe in buying off public sector unions, pensioners etc

That they don't idolise trotsky is irrelevant, they walk like a left party, under Michael Martin, they also undoubtedly talk like one

There are degrees of left, FF are not PBP but still left

Poor_old_gill

There is no left wing party in Ireland - the 'left wing' TDs are the same as the rural TDs and as all the other parties whereby they tell their constituents that they are under attack and someone is doing them out of something and that I' m the only one to stand up for you.

I still find it baffling that people thought Clare Daly was a left wing TD just because she said she was.
She supported her boyfriend who ripped off the taxman, who own employess and his own creditors - all while attempting to build a business empire - the epitome of left wing, eh?

Once she and Wallace got into the Dail they then engaged in the usual nonsense of nepotism and borderline corruption with regard to expenses.

Dont get me started on our Labour Party!!

nkl12xtw5goz70

When the so-called "right-wing" parties are doling out €20 billion a year in social welfare payments, maintaining marginal tax rates of 52% on average earners, appeasing the public-sector unions, and supporting gay marriage and abortion on demand, a far-left coalition would have little appeal to most voters. Most of the "left-wing" or "socially liberal" stuff that most voters want has already been covered. Plus, a far-left coalition would attack corporate tax rates and multinationals, put 100,000 jobs at risk, and potentially lead to the unraveling of the economy -- and most voters are too smart to risk that.

Mad_maxx

Julie Aggressive Gate wrote: »

When the so-called "right-wing" parties are doling out €20 billion a year in social welfare payments, maintaining marginal tax rates of 52% on average earners, appeasing the public-sector unions, and supporting gay marriage and abortion on demand, a far-left coalition would have little appeal to most voters. Most of the "left-wing" or "socially liberal" stuff that most voters want has already been covered. Plus, a far-left coalition would attack corporate tax rates and multinationals, put 100,000 jobs at risk, and potentially lead to the unraveling of the economy -- and most voters are too smart to risk that.

How do things look from afar in 2020?

I find the place to be getting more and more socialist by the year.

nkl12xtw5goz70

Mad_maxx wrote: »

How do things look from afar in 2020?

I find the place to be getting more and more socialist by the year.

It's a welfare state and public-sector gravy train funded through fiscally liberal corporate tax policy on US tech giants, which are themselves supported by a stock market bubble created by more than a decade of loose monetary policy.

This isn't likely to change in the short term — stock markets usually boom in a US presidential election year — but it's a precarious house of cards nonetheless.

sdanseo

Julie Aggressive Gate wrote: »

It's a welfare state and public-sector gravy train funded through fiscally liberal corporate tax policy on US tech giants, which are themselves supported by a stock market bubble created by more than a decade of loose monetary policy.

A fair summary if you leave out the lower half of the public sector grades. Crisis in that area trying to hire in the HSE, Defence Forces and other agencies where the pay for entry level is tied to a CO and significantly poorer than other countries. It is utterly unfair to tar the entire public service - more than 6% of the population - with the same brush and doing so doesn't do anyone any favours, it just makes politics more divisive. There are high level public officials paid an awful lot more AND less than their market value depending on exactly what it is they do.

We need to adjust the balance of welfare in this country.

It's time to do something for the middle class.

Too much is being paid out in unnecessary costs across the board (see recent example of an apartment block in Dundrum being bought for social housing). This money needs to be re-thought and better spent making working conditions better for those that are bothered to do so. Even in being a welfare state, we can't do it right. It's all just payouts and allowances, many of them to people who are getting quite a lot already. Writing cheques for people's votes, in a not even thinly veiled way. I'll never begrudge anyone for claiming a benefit they are entitled to - work the system by all means - but we need to equally incentivise work.

Take a small percentage of the money being spent on these things and make the first week of sick leave paid instead of having employees essentially have to use annual leave to cover it. Even better, take it a step further, pay it directly to employers and force them to pay employees at full pay when certified for a short time. Many do already, the rest would have happier employees. While they're at it, increase mandatory full paid leave to 25 days, since we are the joint lowest in Europe for that.

The One Doctor

Mad_maxx wrote: »

FF are a high public spending party, always have been unless forced not to

Under Michael Martin, they are as socially Liberal as Labour or the greens

Good. Time for me to vote FF instead of my usual FG.

Augme

Julie Aggressive Gate wrote: »

Plus, a far-left coalition would attack corporate tax rates and multinationals, put 100,000 jobs at risk, and potentially lead to the unraveling of the economy -- and most voters are too smart to risk that.

An modest increase in corporate tax rates would have zero impact on jobs. But at the very least they should be collecting the current rate. Most voteers can't be that smart if they think increasing the corporate tax rate a small amount is going to have any impact in jobs.

Wanderer78

Augme wrote: »

An modest increase in corporate tax rates would have zero impact on jobs. But at the very least they should be collecting the current rate. Most voteers can't be that smart if they think increasing the corporate tax rate a small amount is going to have any impact in jobs.

i do believe its now critical we should be very slowly increasing corporate tax rates globally, but it might be best to partially accept this as stocks and shares, to be placed into sovereign wealth funds, to be invested into public needs

Idbatterim

Fg going to lose power, partially because they look after the wasters rather than workers first and foremost...

Wanderer78

Idbatterim wrote:

Fg going to lose power, partially because they look after the wasters rather than workers first and foremost...

Define wasters?

Mad_maxx

Idbatterim wrote: »

Fg going to lose power, partially because they look after the wasters rather than workers first and foremost...

FF are running on a platform which will attack the tax payer even more, il vote FG as i absolutely loathe Michael Martin, a man who stands for nothing and who has moved his party further left than any FF leader in history

Idbatterim

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Define wasters?

the huge amount not paying for their social housing. The legions of work shy. The huge numbers fraudulently claiming "disability" and as for the "poor pensioners" spare me! as a generalisation, which I think is fair enough when you are talking about five million people, they are by far the most comfortable grouping in society!

Idbatterim

Mad_maxx wrote: »

FF are running on a platform which will attack the tax payer even more, il vote FG as i absolutely loathe Michael Martin, a man who stands for nothing and who has moved his party further left than any FF leader in history

its complex, FG have done nothing for the taxpayer. If FF actually make more inroads into housing, which is an obscene cost, it would be better than FG giving you less than a euro a week back in usc cut, if you earn less than the marginal rate!

Rock and a hard place, doesnt even come close! Will laugh if the **** hits the fan again economically!

Idbatterim

Mad_maxx wrote: »

FF are running on a platform which will attack the tax payer even more, il vote FG as i absolutely loathe Michael Martin, a man who stands for nothing and who has moved his party further left than any FF leader in history

the obvious thing for me, is FG get rid of varadkar asap! then go back to representing, those that put them there! Whether that is a junior or senior party.

Eric Cartman

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Define wasters?

people who cost the economy more than they contribute through their own poor choices, laziness or immorality.

Idbatterim

Eric Cartman wrote: »

people who cost the economy more than they contribute through their own poor choices, laziness or immorality.

fifty percent of the country receive some sort of welfare payment. the marginal tax rate of FIFTY percent is comedy, given that it hits even the working poor AND every other tax is "immoral" a tax on your home, water charges etc. Why dont they get rid of Vat etc and just increase income tax. Let the workers pay for absolutely everything, sure we arent far off it!

FF days of E20 or whatever welfare increases each budget are long gone. The black hole of health alone, will ensure that. the NCH, rural broadband etc. At least infrastructure, isnt a total waste of money! The massively ageing population will cause issues. they dont want to touch LPT etc. Its not just varadkar that has backed himeself into a corner, FF sure as hell wont make any changes either, other than the lowest of low hanging political fruit...

Eric Cartman

Idbatterim wrote: »

fifty percent of the country receive some sort of welfare payment. the marginal tax rate of FIFTY percent is comedy, given that it hits even the working poor AND every other tax is "immoral" a tax on your home, water charges etc. Why dont they get rid of Vat etc and just increase income tax. Let the workers pay for absolutely everything, sure we arent far off it!

but if they got rid of vat then that silly argument that even people on the dole are 'taxpayers' would dissapear, this would unfairly disadvantage the hard left posters here.... have you no shame :pac:

Idbatterim

having a fifty percent marginal tax rate, as if you were the wolf of wall street, when in reality you are keeping the wolf from the door at the rate it kicks in at, is a disgrace!

So much for being "open for business" , pro business or whatever other BS FG claim. Every vote counts the same, so who do you reward, the one in ten or less "high earners" or the 4-5 welfarers?

One issue with the HSE seems to be people not showing up for appointments, simple. E50 fine if this happens. Let those with a medical card, start paying E20 at least for a GP visit!

Oh let me guess "cant afford it" can afford E13 for cigarettes, E6 a pint etc...

Loafing Oaf

markodaly wrote: »

In my mind, it's self-evident. Time and time again, the Irish left preach about a left alternative, but when push comes to shove their shy away from power and prefer to be ideologically pure, sitting the ditch, rather than make compromises and go into power with similarly minded parties and people?

After which general election would an alliance of left-wing parties have been in a position to form a government not involving FF or FG?

Snow Garden

Julie Aggressive Gate wrote: »

It's a welfare state and public-sector gravy train funded through fiscally liberal corporate tax policy on US tech giants, which are themselves supported by a stock market bubble created by more than a decade of loose monetary policy.

This isn't likely to change in the short term — stock markets usually boom in a US presidential election year — but it's a precarious house of cards nonetheless.

100% correct. Given our massive national debt, it's very very precarious. A recession will hit very hard, again.

Mad_maxx

Idbatterim wrote: »

the obvious thing for me, is FG get rid of varadkar asap! then go back to representing, those that put them there! Whether that is a junior or senior party.

Leo is an insufferably smug prat but Martin is worse for me

Ireland has swung so much to the left, it's difficult for any sort of Conservative manifesto to gain a foothold, media would slaughter anyone who tried

Eric Cartman

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Leo is an insufferably smug prat but Martin is worse for me

Ireland has swung so much to the left, it's difficult for any sort of Conservative manifesto to gain a foothold, media would slaughter anyone who tried

the media and the rabble rabble protest groups would, but as weve seen with casey and the like, the ballot box can make the odds. JUst remember when leo was elected he was championing the 'welfare cheats cheat us all' campaign, he was elected with people seeing that, just a shame he just handed them more cash and did the opposite of what we wanted.

Idbatterim

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Leo is an insufferably smug prat but Martin is worse for me

Ireland has swung so much to the left, it's difficult for any sort of Conservative manifesto to gain a foothold, media would slaughter anyone who tried

The people elect him. Not the Media, I take your point. But many are through with the media here are the politicians! Many view the media here very cynically and I would hold them somewhat responsible for the state of politics here !!

Mad_maxx

Idbatterim wrote: »

The people elect him. Not the Media, I take your point. But many are through with the media here are the politicians! Many view the media here very cynically and I would hold them somewhat responsible for the state of politics here !!

The media push a high tax - high spend - big government in our lives agend

Leo rowed back on his promise to prioritise the "people who rise early" due to the media reaction

Eric Cartman

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The media push a high tax - high spend agenda

hard not to when theyre all begging for a broadcast charge, half their staff are independent contractors making under 35k a year and especially in print the future is very uncertain.

Idbatterim

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The media push a high tax - high spend - big government in our lives agend

Leo rowed back on his promise to prioritise the "people who rise early" due to the media reaction

Well he’s about to lose what matters , power , due to a public reaction

Mad_maxx

Eric Cartman wrote: »

hard not to when theyre all begging for a broadcast charge, half their staff are independent contractors making under 35k a year and especially in print the future is very uncertain.

It's more than that, RTE has been a hotbed of leftist ideology for fifty years

Mad_maxx

Snow Garden wrote: »

100% correct. Given our massive national debt, it's very very precarious. A recession will hit very hard, again.

FG have not and will not address the welfare state or the public sector gravy train. In fact they have made it worse (e.g. HSE).

And FF are even more likely to ignore the situation

meeeeh

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The media push a high tax - high spend - big government in our lives agend

Leo rowed back on his promise to prioritise the "people who rise early" due to the media reaction

You were looking for more holidays, paid sick leave and so on. That's the definition of left wing. (At least in Irish context).

Public sector unions have a lot of clout in Ireland but otherwise Irish politics in general would be closer to the right than left. Public service is fairly limited, if people would had to pay to visit a doctor where I come from there would be riots, similarly nobody would put up with the prices paid for childcare here. Ireland might be left wing in comparison tu US but not in comparison to continental Europe.

Annasopra

Augme wrote: »

Sinn Fein, labour, greens, soc Dems and and potentially a couple of independents would all be close enough in policy to form a working party in pretty much any other European country.

The problem is this is Ireland and most of the politicians first priority is themselves and their own ego. I don't think our parties can agree to comprise and behave in an adult way. I think sinn Fein would be the hardest party to get comprise with.

I could easily see labour, greens and Soc Dems getting a coalition together a lot easier but they will never get the numbers.

Paul Murphy specifically set up his new party because he wants to see a more United left and realised that will never happen with PBP et all.

The far left like PBP, SWP will always be left on the outside as their ideas will never be desired by most people.

If Paul Murphy genuinely wanted a united left he would work with Labour, Soc Dems, Greens

Loafing Oaf

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The media push a high tax - high spend - big government in our lives agend

Leo rowed back on his promise to prioritise the "people who rise early" due to the media reaction

More of a vague aspiration than a promise I'd say, and I don't believe he ever had any intention of honouring it, it was just an eyecatching but essentially vacuous soundbite chucked out in the midst of a party leadership campaign.

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

If Paul Murphy genuinely wanted a united left he would work with Labour, Soc Dems, Greens

Alas I think Paul's personal priority is Paul.

Junkyard Tom

Eric Cartman wrote: »

people who cost the economy more than they contribute through their own poor choices, laziness or immorality.

Unfortunately they're well protected by Limited Liability and other legal instruments that distort the 'free market'.

Mad_maxx

meeeeh wrote: »

You were looking for more holidays, paid sick leave and so on. That's the definition of left wing. (At least in Irish context).

Public sector unions have a lot of clout in Ireland but otherwise Irish politics in general would be closer to the right than left. Public service is fairly limited, if people would had to pay to visit a doctor where I come from there would be riots, similarly nobody would put up with the prices paid for childcare here. Ireland might be left wing in comparison tu US but not in comparison to continental Europe.

Even in Sweden, No such thing as unconditional welfare benefits from cradle to grave

markodaly

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

After which general election would an alliance of left-wing parties have been in a position to form a government not involving FF or FG?

Never on their own but they had a chance in 2016 to go into government and they ran away from it.

markodaly

So, some interesting commentry all around.

There seems to be some agreement that left wing politics in Ireland are pre-occupied with themselves (e.g. Paul Murphy) or their own cause (e.g. SF) rather then going into government and improving the lives of the people who vote for them and enact change via being in government.

It is also very interesting that those who decry the duopoly of FG/FF in other threads are largely silent, never mind supporters of these left wing parties being quiet on the likelihood of a left wing block of sorts and defending the status quo.

This to me is the encapsulation of the issue. People are plenty brave giving out about 'da government' from their comfortable house, but when questions are asked direcly about a left wing block alternative forming a government, we get silence, because that means people have to get off the fence and stand up to be counted, something most left wing parties and voters dont do.

Tom Mann Centuria

markodaly wrote: »

This to me is the encapsulation of the issue. People are plenty brave giving out about 'da government' from their comfortable house, but when questions are asked direcly about a left wing block alternative forming a government, we get silence, because that means people have to get off the fence and stand up to be counted, something most left wing parties and voters dont do.

I'm comfortably housed, mid way through my mortgage, happy to say I'll personally vote as far left as local candidates allow, and I'd like a left wing block to form the government. Zero chance it'll ever be a left wing block government here but just answering your call

Idbatterim

Don’t know whether I shouldn’t vote or give ffg a first and second preference. Might send out a good message to the rest of the idiots in the dail, that as bad as ffg are , that the alternatives are the worst of the worst ...

The independents are time wasters. The abc brigade are another joke

Loafing Oaf

markodaly wrote: »

Never on their own but they had a chance in 2016 to go into government and they ran away from it.

Which parties are you talking about here? Both FF and FG ruled out any sort of deal with SF. Labour had just taken a mighty hammering from the electorate over the compromises it had made in coalition with FG; I doubt many of its supporters or potential supporters would be critical of it for not signing up for more of the same...

markodaly

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

I'm comfortably housed, mid way through my mortgage, happy to say I'll personally vote as far left as local candidates allow, and I'd like a left wing block to form the government. Zero chance it'll ever be a left wing block government here but just answering your call

Appreciate the response, but why part bolded above?

Is it that Ireland is just too centrist to allow a left wing block or are the left wing in Ireland both ineffectual and out of touch?