Journalists what do we expect?

Tim Robbins

Anyone else read Cummisky's article in the Irish Times today ?

Some points...

He says Wales peak every four years. This year they won the grand slam in a world cup year, the last two times they won a grand slam, it was year after world cup years (2008 and 2012, they also won the tournament in 2013). Wales have also had some embarrassments in World Cups.
They didn't make out of their pool in 1991, 1995 and 2007. They have made the semi's twice since 1991. So twice gone further than the proverbial quarter, three times didn't even make it that far.

He thinks Larmour at 15 is a no -brainer and insinuates it was shocking that he was playing there this year. Larmour has great feet, but sometimes in Test Rugby where it can be about waiting for the other team to make a mistake it is more about covering space, being accurate with your kicking, your tackling and your fielding. But he seems to think just because Larmour has a super step, he's infallible. Why is Larmour better than Joey at 15? If you want two play makers then you need them at 10 and 12 or 10 and 15. Joey would be a better option at 15 if Farrell wants to go this way.

He also says our attack should be centered around Larmour and Ringrose. This is the kind of comment someone more interested in another sport makes. In Rugby, everyone attacks when you have the ball, and everyone defends when you don't. Teams that rely on one or two people for line breaks are very limited.

He then goes on to give out about Private schools in Leinster. Without Private schools we would be at the same level as Romania. The coaching in these schools is world class and the coaching in youths is getting better and better. I think one major side effect of Joe was he improved coaching at all levels of Rugby by showing everyone what difference a good coach can make.
He comments:
"the promised army of Seán O’Briens and Tadhg Furlongs, that agricultural non-private-school-educated brute force essential if Ireland are to truly live with opponents that have rugby as their national game."

Conor O'Brien is Mullingar, Ciaran Frawley is Skerries, Jeremy Loughman also came via youths to Blackrock than Munster same as Carberry. There are lots of other examples. Jack Aungier's school not private. As stated youths is getting way better.

He then insinuates not much talent coming through at Munster. The Irish U20 just did a slam and most of the good players on that team were from Munster.

He thinks we have lots of options at nine. None of our options are even close to the level Murray was at when he started for Lions in 2017.

As for his team selection for 2021. It's like he watched few highlights of the U20s and then added in a few names to current team. CJ Stander really going to hold off the next wave of back rowers from Leinster and Munster??

Clegg

There's a lot to your post so I'll just pick a few points. Wrt the fullback jersey it really is a no brainer. Larmour has been the standout 15 in Ireland and possibly Europe this season. His running ability is an obvious strength of his, but since last season he's worked hard on his positioning in the backfield and his catching of the high ball. He still has work to do but it's no longer a weakness of his game.

You mentioned Carbery as a second playmaker and his passing ability is something he has over Larmour, but again that's something that latter has worked hard on. Whereas in seasons past Larmour was guilty of of taking too much out of the ball, he's much more aware of his surroundings and looks for the pass or the kick to touch.

Carbery hasn't played 15 with any regularity since his final season with Leinster. He showed that he had the makings of an excellent 15, but since then all his rugby has been as a 10. It would be the height of foolishness not to select a bang in form 15 and instead choose an out of form 10.

I fail to see your point about building the team around Larmour and Ringrose. You say every team defends and attacks together. Whilst that's true in a general sense, it's also true that many sides build their attack around a fulcrum. Ireland did it with BOD for 15 years and for the last 6 years with Sexton. Ringrose and Larmour are our best attacking players. With Sexton winding down and no standout replacement in sight it makes sense to build around the stepping and line running talents our those two. Ireland were roundly criticised for being too one dimensional and dependent on Sexton. It make sense give talented runners a chance to be your creative hub.

And WRT the U20 slam side I think his point is fair. There were a lot of good players from Munster in that side. Casey, Hodnett, French and Healy were standouts. But the very best were still Leinster guys, Byrne and Penney being the obvious. The the sad fact is that despite their U20 success none of those Munster guys are within an asses roar of establishing themselves in the senior side while Penney and Byrne are well on their way to mainstay status.

Edit: This ended up being far longer than I intended.

Tim Robbins

Clegg wrote: »

And WRT the U20 slam side I think his point is fair. There were a lot of good players from Munster in that side. Casey, Hodnett, French and Healy were standouts. But the very best were still Leinster guys, Byrne and Penney being the obvious. The the sad fact is that despite their U20 success none of those Munster guys are within an asses roar of establishing themselves in the senior side while Penney and Byrne are well on their way to mainstay status.

Edit: This ended up being far longer than I intended.

Some good points there. I actually thought Byrne was hot / cold in the U20s. I was at game against Scotland where he didn't play well at all and came off.

Wycherley was on the U20 team and played well and has had a few starts for senior side.

Buer

French and Healy weren't even starters for the U20 side. They featured when others were injured.

The Lost Sheep

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Anyone else read Cummisky's article in the Irish Times today ?

Some points...

He says Wales peak every four years. This year they won the grand slam in a world cup year, the last two times they won a grand slam, it was year after world cup years (2008 and 2012, they also won the tournament in 2013). Wales have also had some embarrassments in World Cups.
They didn't make out of their pool in 1991, 1995 and 2007. They have made the semi's twice since 1991. So twice gone further than the proverbial quarter, three times didn't even make it that far.

only not made out of pool one time fewer than us. But have made semis twice....
Are there embarrassments/poor tournaments really much worse than ours?

He thinks Larmour at 15 is a no -brainer and insinuates it was shocking that he was playing there this year. Larmour has great feet, but sometimes in Test Rugby where it can be about waiting for the other team to make a mistake it is more about covering space, being accurate with your kicking, your tackling and your fielding. But he seems to think just because Larmour has a super step, he's infallible. Why is Larmour better than Joey at 15? If you want two play makers then you need them at 10 and 12 or 10 and 15. Joey would be a better option at 15 if Farrell wants to go this way.

I dont think Carbery will be a 15. He moved south to be a 10.

He also says our attack should be centered around Larmour and Ringrose. This is the kind of comment someone more interested in another sport makes. In Rugby, everyone attacks when you have the ball, and everyone defends when you don't. Teams that rely on one or two people for line breaks are very limited.

I think that's a bit arrogant to say that's comment other sports followers may make. A lot of teams will have a few people they will rely on or are more likely to make lienebreaks. ...

He then goes on to give out about Private schools in Leinster. Without Private schools we would be at the same level as Romania. The coaching in these schools is world class and the coaching in youths is getting better and better. I think one major side effect of Joe was he improved coaching at all levels of Rugby by showing everyone what difference a good coach can make

No we wouldnt be that low without private schools. The coaching in a small number of schools to a small degree is top class. It isnt that Goodman did schmidt really improve coaching at all levels? No he didnt.

He comments:
"the promised army of Seán O’Briens and Tadhg Furlongs, that agricultural non-private-school-educated brute force essential if Ireland are to truly live with opponents that have rugby as their national game."

Conor O'Brien is Mullingar, Ciaran Frawley is Skerries, Jeremy Loughman also came via youths to Blackrock than Munster same as Carberry. There are lots of other examples. Jack Aungier's school not private. As stated youths is getting way better.

it isnt so much the agricultural but just in general we need more from the clubs set up as for majority of history Ireland have been poor to average...

He then insinuates not much talent coming through at Munster. The Irish U20 just did a slam and most of the good players on that team were from Munster.

He thinks we have lots of options at nine. None of our options are even close to the level Murray was at when he started for Lions in 2017.

its lazy to say Munster dont have much coming through. Wont have numbers leinster do but who does? Munster will always be compared direct with leinster and will always lose that battle. We do have lots options at 9 but it isnt really a problem none are near level Murray was with lions in 2017. He was so good then it would be very hard for others to match that level performance....

Kirk Van Houten

Cummisky is a lot easier to read and understand once you realise he's merely a Leinster fan blogger who's got a gig as a staff writer for the Irish Times. Treat him the same as Francis.

arsebiscuits1

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Anyone else read Cummisky

Nope.

Save you a lot of time...

Cummisky is in the Francis category of "write a controversial opinion piece in print media which is a medium people can't readily respond to rendering the actual value of content worthless"

All Cummisky needs for me to respect him less is to write for the Sun

Tim Robbins

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Nope.

Save you a lot of time...

Cummisky is in the Francis category of "write a controversial opinion piece in print media which is a medium people can't readily respond to rendering the actual value of content worthless"

All Cummisky needs for me to respect him less is to write for the Sun

I don't know. Francis has a good turn of phrase, sticks his neck out and backs it up pointing to finer details in people's games.

Cummisky reminds of a guy who only has a limited interest, knowledge of the game and just has to write something rather than an out and out expert.

What I'd really like from a journalist is good knowledge of the AIL, the clubs, the academies and the schools, and then to be able to pass on information that I don't have time to get myself. So - if they are going to a lot of AIL games, Leinster A games, they should know more about players abilities and be able to point out things like I think Max Deegan has a better set of hands and feet than the other young back rowers. This means he is more effective in lineouts peels, quick short passes etc I guess I would like more Rugby detail rather than just saying things Larmour should be playing because I say so.

The Lost Sheep

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I don't know. Francis has a good turn of phrase, sticks his neck out and backs it up pointing to finer details in people's games.

Cummisky reminds of a guy who only has a limited interest, knowledge of the game and just has to write something rather than an out and out expert.

What I'd really like from a journalist is good knowledge of the AIL, the clubs, the academies and the schools, and then to be able to pass on information that I don't have time to get myself. So - if they are going to a lot of AIL games, Leinster A games, they should know more about players abilities and be able to point out things like I think Max Deegan has a better set of hands and feet than the other young back rowers. This means he is more effective in lineouts peels, quick short passes etc I guess I would like more Rugby detail rather than just saying things Larmour should be playing because I say so.

there is some with good knowledge of club scene. Brendan fanning does and writes about it regularly enough. Thornley is alright on club game but never writes about it. Des berry is good for club game in herald in parts. You just dont have too many people who will do that at all. Either the journalists do a lot of detail orientated pieces or they dont wrote them at all. That isnt going to change any time soon

Clegg

I've more of a problem with Thornley. I think he's too close to certain players which causes him to lose objectivity. He always bigs up the experience of Murray, PoM etc as the reason why they should start for Ireland. Conveniently ignoring that they haven't played well for province or country in an age. What use is experience if you're playing like a drain?

CatFromHue

I think the modern terminology for Thornley is he's a bit of a Stan

durthacht

Clegg wrote: »

...Carbery hasn't played 15 with any regularity since his final season with Leinster. He showed that he had the makings of an excellent 15, but since then all his rugby has been as a 10. It would be the height of foolishness not to select a bang in form 15 and instead choose an out of form 10.
...

It's a little harsh to call Carbery an out of form 10 I think as he has been injurred so much that he hasn't had the chance to demonstrate good form, but I guess that's what you meant anyway.

VayNiice

A mate of mine was coached by Thornley in football as a kid and claims that Thornley "hated rugby" about 15 years ago or so... I always found it very strange.

Buer

VayNiice wrote: »

A mate of mine was coached by Thornley in football as a kid and claims that Thornley "hated rugby" about 15 years ago or so... I always found it very strange.

I don't know about hate but Thornley certainly didn't start out in rugby. He was a football correspondant for the IT back in the early 90s covering the national team and the LOI.

He didn't have any involvement at all in rugby up until the HEC began, to my knowledge.

Tim Robbins

VayNiice wrote: »

A mate of mine was coached by Thornley in football as a kid and claims that Thornley "hated rugby" about 15 years ago or so... I always found it very strange.

The impression I get from a lot of the Rugby journo's is they are not even that passionate about the game. How many of them go to AIL, youths games, trial matches in their free time because they enjoy the sport. They tend to "report" because they are paid to.

hurleronditch

Buer wrote: »

I don't know about hate but Thornley certainly didn't start out in rugby. He was a football correspondant for the IT back in the early 90s covering the national team and the LOI.

He didn't have any involvement at all in rugby up until the HEC began, to my knowledge.

My understanding was that he was always a rugby guy, but as a younger journo took whatever full time gig he could get which was initially a soccer one. Maybe I’m wrong. He went to a rugby school I believe (which I know doesn’t guarantee anything)

aloooof

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I actually quite like Gerry Thornley. He, at least, puts the work in and is often good for a cracker of a stat.

Certainly prefer him far more than Cummiskey; I actively stopped listening to any podcasts he was a guest on as he kept interrupting the likes of Drico. (He also has a kind of condescending, exhaling-laugh when he speaks, which really irritates me, but that might just be a personal thing).

I've stopped listening to, or reading his articles a good while ago, but thought his jibe at Kleyn during the RWC was particularly poor form.

Former Former

Gerry Thornley has been a rugby correspondent for at least 20 years. Whatever his issues are, lack of experience isn't one.

The reality is that he doesn't report on the AIL because no-one cares about it.

kksaints

Buer wrote: »

I don't know about hate but Thornley certainly didn't start out in rugby. He was a football correspondant for the IT back in the early 90s covering the national team and the LOI.

He didn't have any involvement at all in rugby up until the HEC began, to my knowledge.

On Thornley he definitely used to write about football up until the late 90s. He also must have done some non Irish Times work as I have a St Patrick's Athletic programme from 1998 with a column written by him in it.

Bazzo

Murray Kinsella is basically the only Irish rugby journalist I have any time for.

Bazzo

Bazzo wrote: »

Murray Kinsella is basically the only Irish rugby journalist I have any time for.

He's been MIA for the last number of weeks.

connemara man

Lara Flabby Senselessness wrote: »

He's been MIA for the last number of weeks.

He's on a mandated break ala the Irish senior players

If I remember rightly he got really burnt out the year before last (took 6 months of) so takes proper breaks every now and again.

It means he tends to only do the big stuff and look back on the smaller stuff after when he can fit it in or has a slow news week

Today's rugby journalists seem to mostly write opinion pieces these days, you can take them or leave them. There are no Irish rugby journalists that I really look forward to reading at any given time. We live in a world of digital news these days and they have to fight for impressions and clicks, sadly. The one thing I really can't stand though, is when the likes of Thornley gets so beholden to various players/coaches/teams that he will argue the grass is blue and the sky is green to rather than be critical of them. He might as well have been Declan Kidney's PRO at various points through their respective careers.

Bazzo

Lara Flabby Senselessness wrote: »

He's been MIA for the last number of weeks.

Fine by me. I'm happy to read the occasional good article rather than trawling through mountains of bull**** being spewed out by even supposedly "respected" journalists

FrannoFan

VayNiice wrote: »

A mate of mine was coached by Thornley in football as a kid and claims that Thornley "hated rugby" about 15 years ago or so... I always found it very strange.

thornley was the soccer correspondent. Van Esbeck retired (the last half decent rugby journalist the irish times had) replaced him with Thornley.

Thornley has no playing experience of the game but 20 years of being around has given him a level of insight

The main thing he has going for him is the fact he is the main rugby writer for the irish times so gets good interviews. does some half decent stats pieces but has no detailed insight into the game. They usually leave those for matt williams

aloooof

FrannoFan wrote: »

thornley was the soccer correspondent. Van Esbeck retired (the last half decent rugby journalist the irish times had) replaced him with Thornley.

Thornley has no playing experience of the game but 20 years of being around has given him a level of insight

The main thing he has going for him is the fact he is the main rugby writer for the irish times so gets good interviews. does some half decent stats pieces but has no detailed insight into the game. They usually leave those for matt williams

Matt Williams? I'm not a fan, tbh. His open letter to Conor Murray was bizarre!

Bazzo

Bazzo wrote: »

Fine by me. I'm happy to read the occasional good article rather than trawling through mountains of bull**** being spewed out by even supposedly "respected" journalists

Speak of the devil, has just made his first tweet in about 3 weeks.

FrannoFan

aloooof wrote: »

Matt Williams? I'm not a fan, tbh. His open letter to Conor Murray was bizarre!

Yea. He has done some odd articles of late. Not a fan of any of the Irish times lads.
Thornley a bit of a fraud
cummisky a private school fan boy
williams probably most knowledgeable but as said some odd articles of late but at least knows his rugby.

I know people are divided on Francis but at least he doesn't sit on the fence! Has his opinion and gives it without worrying who he offends. He doesn't sugar coat the truth which riles people up.

The Lost Sheep

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The impression I get from a lot of the Rugby journo's is they are not even that passionate about the game. How many of them go to AIL, youths games, trial matches in their free time because they enjoy the sport. They tend to "report" because they are paid to.

if you attend games every single week, press conferences etc would you not simply want to look beyond the sport after you work?

arsebiscuits1

FrannoFan wrote: »

Yea. He has done some odd articles of late. Not a fan of any of the Irish times lads.
Thornley a bit of a fraud
cummisky a private school fan boy
williams probably most knowledgeable but as said some odd articles of late but at least knows his rugby.

I know people are divided on Francis but at least he doesn't sit on the fence! Has his opinion and gives it without worrying who he offends. He doesn't sugar coat the truth which riles people up.

Francis picks whatever side will cause the most outrage.

Whatever about someone being consistent in their views at least then they can plea integrity.

Franno exists only to cause controversy. He doesn't have opinions and has flip flopped on many things over the years.

George Hook was the same

Bazzo

FrannoFan wrote: »

I know people are divided on Francis but at least he doesn't sit on the fence!

You're right there. The consistency with which he manages to be on the wrong side of it is impressive. An absolute blowhard of epic proportions.

ionadnapokot

FrannoFan wrote: »

thornley was the soccer correspondent. Van Esbeck retired (the last half decent rugby journalist the irish times had) replaced him with Thornley.

Thornley has no playing experience of the game but 20 years of being around has given him a level of insight

The main thing he has going for him is the fact he is the main rugby writer for the irish times so gets good interviews. does some half decent stats pieces but has no detailed insight into the game. They usually leave those for matt williams

Edmund Van Esbeck. That’s a blast from the past. The last of the proper rugby journalists.

“Assuredly” Thornley was the soccer correspondent. Badminton before that!? He always does he research and knows his facts and figures. Does the occasional excellent article.
Johnny Watterson also does some good rugby pieces in the IT.
I find it bizarre that the IT allow Cummiskey to bring their paper to indo levels.

STimes - O’Reiily is just about readable.
Examiner - Brendan O’Brien Does some very good pieces.

Paul Rees in the observer/guardian is the only one I would always read.

Kinsella reigns supreme.
I very rarely pay subscriptions but I went out of my way to sign up to the 42 because of the excellent analysis and content he provides.