Evicting a lodger

Cristianc · 03-01-2020 10:00AM #1

Hi. I've rented a two bedroom house and after a while I decided to rent the unused bedroom. After gaining permission from the landlord, I took in a lodger and actually signed with her an agreement which was a slightly edited version of the tenancy agreement I had with the landlord.
Now, in the second month, the lodger doesn't want to pay the rent and her share of the bills and uses a raised voice all the time - she's older than me.

Because I signed with her a "tenancy agreement" instead of a lodger agreeement and it makes reference to the Residential Tenancy Act 2004 (14 day warning notice, 28 days eviction notice etc), how should I ask her to leave?

D3V!L · 03-01-2020 10:04AM

There's no "asking" here. Tell her to leave, if she doesn't then put her stuff outside and change the locks.

Cristianc · 03-01-2020 10:16AM

D3V!L wrote: »

There's no "asking" here. Tell her to leave, if she doesn't then put her stuff outside and change the locks.

I'm concerned that having wrongfully signed a tenancy agreement with a lodger, I'll have to treat her as a tenant.

D3V!L · 03-01-2020 10:19AM

Cristianc wrote: »

I'm concerned that having wrongfully signed a tenancy agreement with a lodger, I'll have to treat her as a tenant.

No because you're not the landlord.

sunshinew · 03-01-2020 10:20AM

Does she pay you the rent directly or to the landlord? Are you definitely sub-letting where you are the sole name on the lease renting from the landlord and her agreement is with you only? In that case, you can ask her to leave and you don't even have to give her notice. It's similar to an owner renting out a room in their own home.
If her tenancy agreement that you had her sign mentions the landlords name though I think you are in a greyer area and she may have tenant rights. How on earth she thinks she can just not pay rent while living with you.... Where do these people come from!

Cristianc · 03-01-2020 10:37AM

sunshinew wrote: »

Does she pay you the rent directly or to the landlord? Are you definitely sub-letting where you are the sole name on the lease renting from the landlord and her agreement is with you only? In that case, you can ask her to leave and you don't even have to give her notice. It's similar to an owner renting out a room in their own home.
If her tenancy agreement that you had her sign mentions the landlords name though I think you are in a greyer area and she may have tenant rights. How on earth she thinks she can just not pay rent while living with you.... Where do these people come from!

I am the single person that has signed an agreement with the landlord - I'm the only tenant. The lodger has signed an edited version of my tenancy agreement where my name shows as landlord - so she has nothing to do with the landlord I've rented the entire house from. She was supposed to pay the rent to my bank account, according to the agreement.

But at that time I didn't know there was a legal difference between tenants and lodgers - so with the lodger I signed a tenancy agreement that mentioned RTA2004, only later to discover the lodgers do not fall under the specifications of this act.

So, should I understand that although all this, I don't have to give a 14 day warning notice and then another 28 day eviction notice?
How much notice should I give? She was supposed to pay the rent monthly.

sunshinew · 03-01-2020 10:45AM

Well my understanding of it then is she's a lodger and it doesn't matter what you made her sign as you didn't have the power to sign a tenancy agreement with her as it's not your property. Legally it's your "home" as you have the agreement with the landlord. I would see it as similar to an owner occupier arrangment then (which I have), which means the lodger has very little rights. You can kick them out with no notice (I charge less rent due to this). It could get quite messy for you though. Perhaps Google some docs around sub-letting and lodger rights so you can show her them. The woman is obviously a difficult person. I would have somebody with you when you tell her to leave.

Wheety · 03-01-2020 10:47AM

Sorry I can't help with the legalities just wondering what she has said when you asked her for the rent?

randomrb · 03-01-2020 10:49AM

How long has she been in place and was there a fixed period in the tenancy agreement?

bcklschaps · 03-01-2020 10:51AM

OP I'm surprised the Landlord allowed you to sub let. But this has turned into a right old disaster. The lodger correctly spotted that you might be on dodgey ground and has taken advantage of the situation. I think you need legal advice and for them to carefully review your tenancy aggreement..... for instance what does it say about termination of the aggreement?

There's plenty of horror stories doing the rounds of tennants living in rented accomodation for free and Landlords at their wits end trying to evict the feckers

endacl · 03-01-2020 10:53AM

Not a tenant.

splinter65 · 03-01-2020 10:56AM

Cristianc wrote: »

Hi. I've rented a two bedroom house and after a while I decided to rent the unused bedroom. After gaining permission from the landlord, I took in a lodger and actually signed with her an agreement which was a slightly edited version of the tenancy agreement I had with the landlord.
Now, in the second month, the lodger doesn't want to pay the rent and her share of the bills and uses a raised voice all the time - she's older than me.

Because I signed with her a "tenancy agreement" instead of a lodger agreeement and it makes reference to the Residential Tenancy Act 2004 (14 day warning notice, 28 days eviction notice etc), how should I ask her to leave?

Read carefully to the end, it’s not long, print it out and hand it to her.

https://www.threshold.ie/advice/seeking-private-rented-accommodation/sharing-with-your-landlordrenting-from-a-tenant/

Cristianc · 03-01-2020 10:57AM

randomrb wrote: »

How long has she been in place and was there a fixed period in the tenancy agreement?

The tenancy agreement between me and the lodger was supposed to last 6 months, still way to go.
However my confusion appeared because I'm a tenant that has signed a tenancy agreement with the actual landlord, and the lodger has signed a similar tenancy agreement with me as landlord, instead of a lodger agreement.

endacl · 03-01-2020 10:59AM

Cristianc wrote: »

The tenancy agreement between me and the lodger was supposed to last 6 months, still way to go.
However my confusion appeared because I'm a tenant that has signed a tenancy agreement with the actual landlord, and the lodger has signed a similar tenancy agreement with me as landlord, instead of a lodger agreement.

No she hasn’t. It’s not your property. You’re not a landlord.

Cristianc · 03-01-2020 11:06AM

endacl wrote: »

No she hasn’t. It’s not your property. You’re not a landlord.

I see now. And yes, I had permission from the actual landlord to bring someone in, to occupy the second bedroom.

So if I'm not the actual landlord and she's not an actual tenant, but a lodger, this means the agreement between us, wrongfully entitled tenancy agreement (with all rights and obligations - such as 28 day notice), is not valid?

The Nal · 03-01-2020 11:07AM

Why has she stopped paying the rent?

randomrb · 03-01-2020 11:10AM

Cristianc wrote: »

The tenancy agreement between me and the lodger was supposed to last 6 months, still way to go.
However my confusion appeared because I'm a tenant that has signed a tenancy agreement with the actual landlord, and the lodger has signed a similar tenancy agreement with me as landlord, instead of a lodger agreement.

I don't agree with what the others have said. It seems that you have sub-let part of the property which could give them the rights of a tenant, however because it is within the first 6 months you can serve a notice with no reason attached to it

sunshinew · 03-01-2020 11:13AM

The threshold link splinter sent above covers it. She's a licensee with no rights for the first 6 months. Give her notice now. While you have an agreement about notice periods, you also had an agreement about paying rent. She's broken the agreement first. Do you have any texts, emails asking her for the rent saying it's late etc.? Might be useful to keep them. However, you actually want rid of her now. You don't want her to pay up and be stuck with her. Did she pay you a deposit? She may end up saying that's her rent.

listermint · 03-01-2020 11:16AM

randomrb wrote: »

I don't agree with what the others have said. It seems that you have sub-let part of the property which could give them the rights of a tenant, however because it is within the first 6 months you can serve a notice with no reason attached to it

He is not the owner of the property.

this person is a lodger

this person can be removed, she doesnt have a leg to stand on. Put her stuff on the kerb. She has no agreement with the landlord the landlords name is not on any documentation. The landlord signed nothing. It doesnt matter if there was verbal permission of a sublet. There is nothing written down.

She can be treated as a lodger because she is.

randomrb · 03-01-2020 11:28AM

listermint wrote: »

He is not the owner of the property.

this person is a lodger

this person can be removed, she doesnt have a leg to stand on. Put her stuff on the kerb. She has no agreement with the landlord the landlords name is not on any documentation. The landlord signed nothing. It doesnt matter if there was verbal permission of a sublet. There is nothing written down.

She can be treated as a lodger because she is.

I know he is not the owner, a tenant can with the permission of the landlord sublet the property. It is more common with the whole property but can be done with a part of it as well. The RTB are very protective of tenants and in this circumstance it is no harm to do it correctly.
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/types-of-tenancies-and-agreements/subletting-and-assignment/

punisher5112 · 03-01-2020 11:33AM

Op it's quite simple, you tell her she has 24 hours to leave.

If she doesn't leave then you wait till she goes out, change the locks only if LL gives you permission or at the very least give them the replacement key.

Pack all belongings up, text her to say the property will be available to collect.

Take photos and even a video so she doesn't say you robbed property etc.

She has no right to stay if you have asked her to leave.

Larbre34 · 03-01-2020 11:36AM

Yer, but, the tenant is in situ, so not a sublet. And the person isn't entitled to enter into a tenancy agreement in that scenario, so whatever was drawn up isn't worth the paper it was written on.

If she's a serial squatter type (and we all know mad yokes like them) then put her out and change the locks, lesson learned for next time.

EmptyTree · 03-01-2020 12:36PM

punisher5112 wrote: »

If she doesn't leave then you wait till she goes out, change the locks only if LL gives you permission or at the very least give them the replacement key.

This. Get permission from your landlord OP, don't end up on the wrong side of them to add to your troubles.

Cristianc · 03-01-2020 01:38PM

EmptyTree wrote: »

This. Get permission from your landlord OP, don't end up on the wrong side of them to add to your troubles.

I won't change the locks since I don't have the landlord's permission to do so. If she refuses to leave how can she be forced? With the Gardai?

CharlieCroker · 03-01-2020 01:45PM

Cristianc wrote: »

I won't change the locks since I don't have the landlord's permission to do so. If she refuses to leave how can she be forced? With the Gardai?

Nothing to do with the guards, it's not a criminal matter. You brought her into the house, up to you to get her out.

Del2005 · 03-01-2020 01:46PM

sunshinew wrote: »

The threshold link splinter sent above covers it. She's a licensee with no rights for the first 6 months. Give her notice now. While you have an agreement about notice periods, you also had an agreement about paying rent. She's broken the agreement first. Do you have any texts, emails asking her for the rent saying it's late etc.? Might be useful to keep them. However, you actually want rid of her now. You don't want her to pay up and be stuck with her. Did she pay you a deposit? She may end up saying that's her rent.

While you cannot enter a contract that impacts your rights negatively you can most certainly enter a contract that improves your rights. You can't sign away your tenancy rights if you are a tenant but you can most definitely sign rights to be a tenant when you are in fact a licencee.

OP you need to get in contact with the RTB to see what they think as they are the ones that the person you rented to will go.

TheChizler · 03-01-2020 01:53PM

They're not a tenant in the eyes of the RTA but the fact of the matter is you have both signed a contract that gives rights and responsibilities to both parties, that may effectively be the same as a tenancy situation. If the contract says she has to pay rent by a certain date, as I imagine it has, then she's after breaking that clause. If the contract doesn't say anything about 14 days notice or things like that then you don't have to provide them. If it does you do. Only the contract applies here, not the, RTA, so check what it says.

Cristianc · 03-01-2020 03:18PM

Talked to the RTB, they said she's a licensee and as far as they know, I can't sign away legal rights.
From this I understand if I declare myself as landlord and her as a tenant to fall under the RTA2004, it doesn't mean we actually are.

Del2005 · 03-01-2020 03:38PM

Cristianc wrote: »

Talked to the RTB, they said she's a licensee and as far as they know, I can't sign away legal rights.
From this I understand if I declare myself as landlord and her as a tenant to fall under the RTA2004, it doesn't mean we actually are.

I'd be getting that in writing

punisher5112 · 03-01-2020 04:17PM

Cristianc wrote: »

I won't change the locks since I don't have the landlord's permission to do so. If she refuses to leave how can she be forced? With the Gardai?

Why not?
If you get permission or tell the LL the lock broke and you replaced like for like and furnish them with a key I can't see an issue.

It may well be your only option as she will have you for assault or something if you try and walk her out.

If she's not paying you need to get her out.

Did you take a deposit?

Samuel T. Cogley · 03-01-2020 05:54PM

Just for future generations, this is why you don't give lodgers anything in writing other than a list of house rules. Even licensees are afforded reasonable notice. That said for sanity's sake you might be better off just kicking her out and hoping it doesn't come back to bite you. The other issue is after six months sub-tenants can apply for Part IV rights and become co-tenants if I'm not mistaken.

Evicting a lodger

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