Motor Tax

Mach Two

What is the motor tax on the newer Rav 4. I see that Toyota are bringing out a PHEV in a Rav 4 in 2020. Is the tax lower on a PHEV compared to it's equivalent in a standard vehicle.

User1998

2.5 Hybrid is €200
2.0 Diesel is €270
Plug in Hybrids are €170

Mach Two

User1998 wrote: »

2.5 Hybrid is €200
2.0 Diesel is €270
Plug in Hybrids are €170

I am hoping to get a plug in hybrid. Nice saving there. Thanks for that.

Black_Knight

Mach Two wrote: »

I am hoping to get a plug in hybrid. Nice saving there. Thanks for that.

Tax should not be your measure of savings. It's very short sighted. Akin to back in 2008 and spending thousands on a new diesel to save a few hundred on tax.

endacl

Mach Two wrote: »

I am hoping to get a plug in hybrid. Nice saving there. Thanks for that.

30 quid a year? You sure you can afford to run any car at all??

PaulRyan97

endacl wrote: »

30 quid a year? You sure you can afford to run any car at all??

Presumably he also means the fuel savings over the regular hybrid?

Mach Two

PaulRyan97 wrote: »

Presumably he also means the fuel savings over the regular hybrid?

I am currently paying €517 in road tax. Car is 20 yrs old. Still cheap driving and a perfectly good car. But it won't last forever. So I was hoping to purchase a Rav 4 hybrid then I heard Toyota are bringing out a Rav in PHEV. What is the cost of travelling a mile in electricity.

Where are ye getting the €30 a year from?

Lantus

Black_Knight wrote: »

Tax should not be your measure of savings. It's very short sighted. Akin to back in 2008 and spending thousands on a new diesel to save a few hundred on tax.

The biggest savings are capital car price. If 50 to 100eu is a critical saving per year then a cheaper car should be a top priority.

The fuel savings on hybrid are marginal in terms of real world costs. Again peanuts compared to car cost.

Mach Two

That's what I am wondering. How much extra would a PHEV be compared to a standard hybrid. Would it pay for itself ?

A €100 definitely wouldn't be a critical saving. But €300 a year helps.

User1998

It really depends on your driving and how much of a difference in price the phev will be compared to regular hybrid. If you drive on electric mode all the time and charge everyday it will eventually pay for itself. If your driving it like a normal car or never charging it then theres no point in buying a plug in.

Generally with phevs so far is that they haven’t really made sense to buy brand new because they cost way more than their petrol/diesel counterparts. It would take years to claw back the thousands extra spent on the car. Most phevs in the uk were business purchases as it meant lower bik, same story here I think?

See how much the Phev is compared to regular hybrid, if it fits your budget and your willing to charge every day and your commute is within the electric range of the car then I’d say go for the plug in. If not then its probably best to stick with the regular hybrid.

Lantus

Mach Two wrote: »

That's what I am wondering. How much extra would a PHEV be compared to a standard hybrid. Would it pay for itself ?

A €100 definitely wouldn't be a critical saving. But €300 a year helps.

You have a budget then you see what that will afford vs what you need or just want. If you can get a hybrid for the same money with no compromise on functionality then great. But when the manufacturer wants you to part with thousands for this tech beware. 300eu a year in fuel savings are crippled even where the hybrid costs 2500 or more. 8 years or more to 'save' in fuel what you spent for a little battery, ouch....

Black_Knight

Mach Two wrote: »

That's what I am wondering. How much extra would a PHEV be compared to a standard hybrid. Would it pay for itself ?

A €100 definitely wouldn't be a critical saving. But €300 a year helps.

What's the price difference between buying the phev Vs hybrid? If most your driving can be on electric, the fuel costs would probably be about 1/4 compared to the hybrid. It's hard to guess without knowing your commute and what milage you do per year. Phev will usually give you around 30-40km electric range (not sure if the RAV4 has any better range but that's a pretty typically phev electric range). If your daily driving is within this, you can save loads. Note you'd need to have at least a 3pin socket outside your house, and better yet get a car charger installed (€600-1000 but there's a €600 grant).

Tax difference between hybrid and phev is only 30 a year (as you said), so it's negligible.

Rough guide... If the price difference between hybrid and phev is minimal, go phev. If you do lots of short <30km drives per day, go phev.

Better guide... Tell us your commute and daily drives. And get those prices for hybrid and phev

Mach Two

I work from home. My furthest drive is approximately 10 miles each way. Lots of shorter spins. Varying from 1 mile each way to 5 miles. The odd 60 mile each way. 5050 miles driven since 23 April 2019.

That's approximately 21 miles a day.

7500 miles per year.

€1132 spent on petrol in 2019.

So between car tax and petrol I would expect to save €1000 yr.
My car has presently no value only to me as it is still cheap driving. If I purchase a new vehicle depreciation kicks in straight away. 2-3k/yr I expect.
What are my options?

Plus the fact it never breaks down. Every time I turn the key it starts. It just won't die. I think the car is immortal.

Black_Knight

Mach Two wrote: »

I work from home. My furthest drive is approximately 16 km each way. Lots of shorter spins. Varying from 2km each way to 8km. The odd 100km each way. 8100km driven since 23 April 2019.

That's approximately 33km a day.

12000km per year.

Sorry. Had to switch to KM. All my EV range knowledge is in KM.

Your short spins seem prime for a PHEV, or an EV if you were thinking that way, given your longer spins seem to only be 100km each way. I'm going to assume these short drives would be the sum total of your driving for that day, since it'd be unlikely you'd charge the car mid day.

It looks like most your driving would be done on electric power. (a quick google says the WLTP range on electric is 60km... sooooo 50km at best i'd imagine). Very little reports on the size of the PHEV battery, but 1 report suggested it might be a 16kWh battery. That's pretty crap range, but the Rav 4 is not exactly designed with aero in mind. 32kW per 100km :eek:

Lets say, 80% of your driving is under 50km per day:
9600km of electric driving per year, @ 32kW per 100km = ~3000kWh of power.
3000kWh @ 16cent (24 hour electricity rate) = €480 per year
3000kWh @ 8cent (night rate) = €240 per year (night rate does increase your standing charge, but if you're using 3000kWh of power per year for a car, it will be worth it).
2400km on petrol.... Dunno. €250 ?

Irish times article said the hybrid did 6.4l/100km for them, so I guess 12k km would come in around €1100 per year in petrol? Seems the hybrid would only end up saving you the difference in tax.

To summarise, €500 a year to move the Rav 4 PHEV around, vs maybe €1100 on the Hybrid. If it's only €600 saved per year, I can easily see the PHEV being a bad economic decision.

Black_Knight

Mach Two wrote: »

So between car tax and petrol I would expect to save €1000 yr.
My car has presently no value only to me as it is still cheap driving. If I purchase a new vehicle depreciation kicks in straight away. 2-3k/yr I expect.
What are my options?

Plus the fact it never breaks down. Every time I turn the key it starts. It just won't die. I think the car is immortal.

Switching to an EV or PHEV will certainly save you money, but there's that big expense in the first place. Assuming you're just set on getting a Rav 4, look at my math above.

Have you considered scrappage options available to you since the car is worth nothing now?

Have you considered 2nd hand cars? You don't seem to do much driving. Buying the hybrid looks like it just means new car + cheaper tax.
Buying the PHEV looks like new car, cheaper to run, but given your mileage the savings don't make sense.

Mach Two

Excellent report Black Knight. If I average 33km a day and most of my driving is electric and you don't see any advantage in purchasing one why would anyone buy one then. If it does not make economic sense for me to purchase one it would not make economic sense for anyone to purchase one.
Why make them?

Correct. I don't want to purchase a new vehicle. I am also considering a Kia. If it makes economic sense to purchase a new Rav PHEV then so be it. But it looks like it might not be a viable option. Won't know until Toyota starts selling them.

My car won't last forever. Toyota make great cars.

User1998

As I said above its mostly business’s buying them as company cars. Doesn’t make sense for a private individual to purchase one new as they cost a good €5,000 more than their diesel / petrol counterparts so it would take years for the car to ‘pay for itself’

Much better value buying second hand from uk, but the car you want hasn’t even been released yet so you’d be waiting a while for an ex demo or something like that.

Outlander PHEV might suit you tho?

Mike9832

Mach Two wrote: »

I work from home. My furthest drive is approximately 10 miles each way. Lots of shorter spins. Varying from 1 mile each way to 5 miles. The odd 60 mile each way. 5050 miles driven since 23 April 2019.

That's approximately 21 miles a day.

7500 miles per year.

€1132 spent on petrol in 2019.

So between car tax and petrol I would expect to save €1000 yr.
My car has presently no value only to me as it is still cheap driving. If I purchase a new vehicle depreciation kicks in straight away. 2-3k/yr I expect.
What are my options?

Plus the fact it never breaks down. Every time I turn the key it starts. It just won't die. I think the car is immortal.

€20 a week saving

Maybe cut your own hair or something, thats peanuts

Mach Two

Looking for a bit of comfort with more space than a car. €5000 more than a conventional car. Wow! That's steep. No way would it pay for itself.

Mike9832

Rav4 phev sounds amazing, would love one

Not for the 45-50k it will be priced at here, it will be mad money if its released here

Mach Two

Mike9832 wrote: »

€20 a week saving

Maybe cut your own hair or something, thats peanuts

Peanuts alright. They would want to be selling the PHEV for the same as a conventional car to justify purchasing one.

Mach Two

Mike9832 wrote: »

Rav4 phev sounds amazing, would love one

Not for the 45-50k it will be priced at here, it will be mad money if its released here

They can keep it.

liamog

Generally I only recommend going full EV to people who do more the 20,000km a year. For PHEVs it very hard to find a sweet spot where they make economic sense. If your return commute is totally covered by electric your probably not doing enough annual mileage to make them worth the extra purchase price.

Mach Two

Who make better cars Toyota or Kia.

Mike9832

Mach Two wrote: »

Peanuts alright. They would want to be selling the PHEV for the same as a conventional car to justify purchasing one.

Totally

When stricter emission targets are here in 23/24 they will be

They'll make hay till then

Mach Two

liamog wrote: »

Generally I only recommend going full EV to people who do more the 20,000km a year. For PHEVs it very hard to find a sweet spot where they make economic sense. If your return commute is totally covered by electric your probably not doing enough annual mileage to make them worth the extra purchase price.

Pity. I presume they will be the car of the future though. The Kia Niro PHEV is €32500. Why would the Rav equivalent be €40k plus.

Black_Knight

Mach Two wrote: »

Why make them?

Some people drive more than you.
Some have a price they're willing to pay, X , a PHEV falls into this range, and then they see the savings the could make by doing so. So they still pay X, but now their monthly car costs are much lower.

Kinda how I got my Ioniq EV. I was going to spend around 20-22k on a car. I looked around at my options and the Ioniq kinda worked for me. Had I bought another car I was probably going to spend similar money, but now i'm saving ~€1000 a year on fuel/maintenance.

Black_Knight

Mach Two wrote: »

Pity. I presume they will be the car of the future though. The Kia Niro PHEV is €32500. Why would the Rav equivalent be €40k plus.

Kia are generally cheaper than Toyota

Mach Two

Black_Knight wrote: »

Kia are generally cheaper than Toyota

So would the Kia Niro PHEV be a viable cost effective option. I know the savings are not hugh but if you can gain a grand why not. Probably closer to €700 because I will almost certainly be purchasing a hybrid of some sort.
Is the Kia of a lesser build quality than the Toyota.

Mach Two

Anybody any idea as to how fuel prices will be in to the future.

Mach Two

Black_Knight wrote: »

Some people drive more than you.
Some have a price they're willing to pay, X , a PHEV falls into this range, and then they see the savings the could make by doing so. So they still pay X, but now their monthly car costs are much lower.

Kinda how I got my Ioniq EV. I was going to spend around 20-22k on a car. I looked around at my options and the Ioniq kinda worked for me. Had I bought another car I was probably going to spend similar money, but now i'm saving ~€1000 a year on fuel/maintenance.

That is why I am looking at a PHEV rather than another hybrid. How do you find the plugging in and out bit.

Black_Knight

Mach Two wrote: »

So would the Kia Niro PHEV be a viable cost effective option. I know the savings are not hugh but if you can gain a grand why not. Probably closer to €700 because I will almost certainly be purchasing a hybrid of some sort.
Is the Kia of a lesser build quality than the Toyota.

The same argument could be had for the Kia Niro PHEV vs Kia Sportage. Similar style cars, same manufacturer. One is PHEV with a premium price over the other. (though the sportage is only in Diesel, and given your commutes you should be buying petrol or electric).

Have you not considered 2nd hand? PHEV or otherwise.

User1998

Mach Two wrote: »

That is why I am looking at a PHEV rather than another hybrid. How do you find the plugging in and out bit.

I have a phev and it’s slightly annoying plugging it in and out everyday especially if your hands are full but it’s worth it as I love the car and the electric driving

Black_Knight

Mach Two wrote: »

That is why I am looking at a PHEV rather than another hybrid. How do you find the plugging in and out bit.

Sorry, missed this question.

It's a bit of a bother, but that's more to do with where my charger is than anything else. I don't drive too far every day, so I really only need to charge every 3-4 days.. With a PHEV you'd want to be plugging in every night though.

In the beginning I was putting the cable in and out of its bag, all diligent like. Now I just throw it in the boot (unless i'm carrying other goods in the boot).

I should probably charge my car tonight, but i've 100km left in it now, and i'm too lazy to bother now (I don't think i'll need my car much tomorrow).

NIMAN

Should be free for EVs.

Mach Two

Black_Knight wrote: »

The same argument could be had for the Kia Niro PHEV vs Kia Sportage. Similar style cars, same manufacturer. One is PHEV with a premium price over the other. (though the sportage is only in Diesel, and given your commutes you should be buying petrol or electric).

Have you not considered 2nd hand? PHEV or otherwise.

I will almost certainly be purchasing a second hand if available. Hard to believe that there is many around though. Any idea as to the battery life in a PHEV. The Rav has excellent safety features. As in Toyota safety sense etc. I presume that an SUV would be safer than a standard car because of it's size.

KCross

Mach Two wrote: »

What is the motor tax on the newer Rav 4. I see that Toyota are bringing out a PHEV in a Rav 4 in 2020. Is the tax lower on a PHEV compared to it's equivalent in a standard vehicle.

User1998 wrote: »

2.5 Hybrid is €200
2.0 Diesel is €270
Plug in Hybrids are €170

Looking at toyota.ie it looks like they only do a 2.5l hybrid petrol version of the RAV4 and the emissions are 105g so that puts it in the €190 tax bracket.

@machtwo, A PHEV version will at most save €10-€20 on motor tax so completely irrelevant when compared to standard hybrids.

Mach Two wrote: »

That's what I am wondering. How much extra would a PHEV be compared to a standard hybrid. Would it pay for itself ?

A €100 definitely wouldn't be a critical saving. But €300 a year helps.

The only real saving will be on fuel. If you can do all your driving in EV mode (sounds like you would for 90%+ of it) your fuel cost will be about a fifth of what your ICE is costing you on fuel.

Mach Two wrote: »

I work from home. My furthest drive is approximately 10 miles each way. Lots of shorter spins. Varying from 1 mile each way to 5 miles. The odd 60 mile each way. 5050 miles driven since 23 April 2019.

That's approximately 21 miles a day.

7500 miles per year.

€1132 spent on petrol in 2019.

So between car tax and petrol I would expect to save €1000 yr.
My car has presently no value only to me as it is still cheap driving. If I purchase a new vehicle depreciation kicks in straight away. 2-3k/yr I expect.
What are my options?

Plus the fact it never breaks down. Every time I turn the key it starts. It just won't die. I think the car is immortal.

Probably not quite the €1000 saving per year but not far off. Maybe €750 since you will be burning some petrol.

However, based on those figures you sound more suited to a secondhand BEV to be honest. Outlaying €30k+ for fuel efficiency doesnt make sense. Your depreciation costs will be multiples of your fuel saving.

Now, if your plan is to spend €30k regardless because you want a "new" car then the Niro PHEV is a decent option. Its on a par with the price of a Sportage and as long as you dont need the extra space of the Sportage it will pay for itself.


A BEV would be a better long term prospect if your plan is to keep whatever you buy for a long time as the servicing costs of a BEV will be much less than a PHEV.

Mach Two wrote: »

Pity. I presume they will be the car of the future though. The Kia Niro PHEV is €32500. Why would the Rav equivalent be €40k plus.

Because the base price of a Rav 4 is ~€38k to begin with. The PHEV will likely not be entry level spec so €45k+ is a good guess. Thats a big gap between a Niro PHEV and a RAV4 PHEV!



One question.... taking hybrid, PHEV etc out of the equation for a minute... if your car calls it a day tomorrow what money would you spend to replace it (regardless of the tech under the bonnet)?

Do you have any wants/needs? e.g. Are you looking for more comfort, to save the planet(!), an SUV, cheapest option to go from A to B etc....

There are lots of variables, until you decide what the base requirements and budget are its hard to recommend a particular car but your mileage does point to a secondhand BEV, imo.

Mach Two

More space than a car. Little bit more comfort. Definitely want something similar to the Toyota safety sense. Adaptive cruise control with stop and go. I don't like driving and have a horrible habit of tailgating. Although everyone says I am an excellent driver. I am looking to purchase a car that will last me 15 years. But with car technology changing so fast it's very hard to future proof a vehicle. I don't want to be laying out a heap of money and be looking at a piece of expensive metal sitting in the yard. A car is a work horse and has a very specific use. Getting you from A to B in one piece preferably. Also need a tow bar for pulling a small trailer.
25-30k replacement cost. Bought my car in 2002 for €12750. A nice but of money then. What would be the equivalent today considering inflation.

Do you realise the cost of a BEV. I considered buying one until I heard the price of one.

Car and driving technology is at a major crossroads nowadays.

User1998

A Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV would suit you. Similar to a Rav 4.Big, safe, future proof, able to tow, radar cruise control. They seem a very popular car at the minute

lawred2

Mach Two wrote: »

I am hoping to get a plug in hybrid. Nice saving there. Thanks for that.

lol

Idbatterim

Depreciation won’t be anything like 2-3 k a year on a 50k car op, it’s fifty percent after 2-3 years with the German cars. Then there is the cost of finance ! The current motor tax and fuel hill is a pittance compared to what depreciation and finance will cost on a new car of that value

liamog

Really you need to do some sums.

The advertised rrp from the kia.ie is €30,145, €32,495, and €37,495.
The Sportage MHEV is approx 6c/km, an e-Niro 1c/km. The Niro PHEV is probably 1c/km electric and 7c/km petrol.

So with your annual mileage of 12,000km and assuming an 80% electric usage for the PHEV. Your annual fuel costs are €720, €264, and €120.
Over 5 years that puts the costs at €33,745, €33,815, and €38,095.

You may actually be one of those few people where a PHEV makes sense of the MHEV.

Mach Two

Do German cars lose half their value after 3 yrs?

Dia_Anseo

Mach Two wrote: »

Do German cars loose half their value after 3 yrs?

I don't know if they loose their value but they do lose their value.

tuxy

It's because the value is loose and becomes detached.

Dia_Anseo

tuxy wrote: »

It's because the value is loose and becomes detached.

That actually makes sense.

The car manufacturers with shoddy build quality do loose most in depreciation.

But loose does not mean detach ?

KCross

liamog wrote: »

Generally I only recommend going full EV to people who do more the 20,000km a year. For PHEVs it very hard to find a sweet spot where they make economic sense. If your return commute is totally covered by electric your probably not doing enough annual mileage to make them worth the extra purchase price.

Pretty much anyone doing average daily mileage is suited to PHEV.

A 40km commute is 10k km/yr. Perfectly suited to BEV or PHEV and the price difference isn’t that much.

In any case the reason to go PHEV is as much convenience as cheap fuel. A lot of people just won’t want to sit at a rapid charger, ever.

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

Pretty much anyone doing average daily mileage is suited to PHEV.

A 40km commute is 10k km/yr. Perfectly suited to BEV or PHEV and the price difference isn’t that much.

In any case the reason to go PHEV is as much convenience as cheap fuel. A lot of people just won’t want to sit at a rapid charger, ever.

Can see future generation PHEV's like that Rav4 with a 15kWh battery becoming very popular, suits autogiants who can keep making engines and consumers

For someone like me who's commute is less than 50km daily and does long trips over 350km at weekends with family it would work out almost as cheap as a BEV with rapid chargers costing 30-40c per kWh

I won't have to stop for 30 minutes and buy coffees/deli food at Circle K etc as well which is unavoidable with my crowd

That RAV4 PHEV is some machine :pac:

300bhp+, all wheel drive, sports suspension, 0-60 sub 5.5 secs, 60km electric range, Toyota reliabilty

At €45,000 it's a good deal imo, even at €50,000 it's not bad, would take it over a Model 3 SR+ anyday

ELM327

Mike9832 wrote: »

Can see future generation PHEV's like that Rav4 with a 15kWh battery becoming very popular, suits autogiants who can keep making engines and consumers

For someone like me who's commute is less than 50km daily and does long trips over 350km at weekends with family it would work out almost as cheap as a BEV with rapid chargers costing 30-40c per kWh

I won't have to stop for 30 minutes and buy coffees/deli food at Circle K etc as well which is unavoidable with my crowd

That RAV4 PHEV is some machine :pac:

300bhp+, all wheel drive, sports suspension, 0-60 sub 5.5 secs, 60km electric range, Toyota reliabilty

At €45,000 it's a good deal imo, even at €50,000 it's not bad, would take it over a Model 3 SR+ anyday

But then you have to console and reconcile to yourself that you've spent 50k on a Toyota!


Anyone spending 50k on a rav4 phev needs their head examined.

Mike9832

ELM327 wrote: »

But then you have to console and reconcile to yourself that you've spent 50k on a Toyota!


Anyone spending 50k on a rav4 phev needs their head examined.

True I would normally think similar, but that's some Toyota, I'll imagine its a Lexus

Lantus

Mach Two wrote: »

What is the motor tax on the newer Rav 4. I see that Toyota are bringing out a PHEV in a Rav 4 in 2020. Is the tax lower on a PHEV compared to it's equivalent in a standard vehicle.

Just to back to ops original query. If you can afford 40k on a car, tax should be largely irrelevant. If the phev is even just 2k to 5k more than the spec level you want and your willing to consider its the equivalent of minimum 20 years of tax savings even if the saving is 100eu.

The tyres and servicing will be a bigger cost.

Nice looking car BTW. But it's hard to take this seriously. The battery will put a nice smile on your face through added acceleration and fuel efficiency will no longer be very important. So go enjoy yourself and stop worrying about 30eu a year...