Mental health and police

mr_fegelien

Should Ireland bring in a system like the U.S. where if your suicidal/having mental issues and someone calls the police, they take you to the psych ward immediately? Seems to be a more efficient system than here.

AFAIK, the Gardai have powers to detain someone under the Mental Health Act but it is SELDOM used unlike over the pond. In fact, it's much more difficult to get psychiatrists, G.P.s, police to do anything here with mental health in regards to detainment, prescriptions, psych wards unlike America.

we'llallhavetea

Sure ye could send anyone away if ye gave gardaí the power. I'd say there are way too many crooked cops willing to do it for cash.

corner of hells

we'llallhavetea wrote: »

Sure ye could send anyone away if ye gave gardaí the power. I'd say there are way too many crooked cops willing to do it for cash.

I was going to give an answer from proffesional experience but fcuk it .

raze_them_all_

Half the time in the US the cops kill who the call was made by/in relation to

Wesser

Do you think mental health outcomes are better in Ireland or the states?

corner of hells

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

Half the time in the US the cops kill who the call was made by/in relation to

Should probably stop using phones in the US.

Sardonicat

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Should Ireland bring in a system like the U.S. where if your suicidal/having mental issues and someone calls the police, they take you to the psych ward immediately? Seems to be a more efficient system than here.

AFAIK, the Gardai have powers to detain someone under the Mental Health Act but it is SELDOM used unlike over the pond. In fact, it's much more difficult to get psychiatrists, G.P.s, police to do anything here with mental health in regards to detainment, prescriptions, psych wards unlike America.

Why would you call the police instead of an ambulance? You'd still have to go through A & E first , here. I know of two people in recent weeks who are suicidal and weren't admitted. On one case the mother was told, 'whatever you do, don't leave her alone' in one breath and in the next breath told they couldn't involuntarily admit her adult daughter because she didn't pose a real threat to herself. Cops won't fix the crisis in our mental health services. Vast amount of investment overseen by people who won't waste it is what's needed.

Mad_maxx

Sardonicat wrote: »

Why would you call the police instead of an ambulance? You'd still have to go through A & E first , here. I know of two people in recent weeks who are suicidal and weren't admitted. On one case the mother was told, 'whatever you do, don't leave her alone' in one breath and in the next breath told they couldn't involuntarily admit her adult daughter because she didn't pose a real threat to herself. Cops won't fix the crisis in our mental health services. Vast amount of investment overseen by people who won't waste it is what's needed.

The "rights" based culture as demanded by liberals prevents decisive action being taken in areas like this.

What we get is a situation where concern for an infringement of an individuals rights actually endangers the sick person in question

It should be much easier to section someone against their will

Miike

Mad_maxx wrote: »

It should be much easier to section someone against their will

No. No it shouldn't. The current system is in place to prevent inappropriate admissions which it does in the large.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Should Ireland bring in a system like the U.S. where if your suicidal/having mental issues and someone calls the police, they take you to the psych ward immediately? Seems to be a more efficient system than here.

AFAIK, the Gardai have powers to detain someone under the Mental Health Act but it is SELDOM used unlike over the pond. In fact, it's much more difficult to get psychiatrists, G.P.s, police to do anything here with mental health in regards to detainment, prescriptions, psych wards unlike America.

Who gave you that erroneous impression about the US? More imaginations?

You'd be lucky to get within an ass's roar of a psych ward in the us with decent health insurance or a conviction due to insanity.

Also, have you looked up Pysch ward standards in the US?

My sister in law worked in one in New England for 30 years - the conditions would not be tolerated here.

Wesser

in terms of sectioning someone.
it is very difficult to get the balance right between the needs of safety and the rights of the individual. in my experience, the law on this in ireland is excellent and achieves this balance very well

SEPT 23 1989

Can a husband still sign his wife into an institution?

Asking for a friend

Airyfairy12

I wouldnt want Ireland following the US mental health care system. Irelands mental health system is abysmal and needs allot of change but that is not the way.
Besides, even if the gardai were given this kind of power - which I think would be very open to abuse and misjudgment - there arent any places for the mentally ill to go, we dont really have much in terms of phsych wards in this country and what we do have is thinly dispersed across the country. Theres many stories in the news of general hospitals sending suicidal and self harming people home.
Theres no help for allot of people.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Like everything a balance needs to be found. The rights of all need to be taken into account.

You've families living with potentially dangerous schizophrenics up and down the country. I personally know of a case where a mother was killed by her schizophrenic son after numerous attempts to section him failed.


Others where they're been released on tribunal after a couple of weeks 'treatment' while still dangerously unwell.

ChikiChiki

Miike wrote: »

No. No it shouldn't. The current system is in place to prevent inappropriate admissions which it does in the large.

I have a family member gone off the rails on drink and pills for the last 10 years. She has attacked neighbours while drunk. Yet in this bastern country because while she is harming others and making threats to herself we cannot get her sectioned because of the alcohol.

It's horrific to live with. I know it's an underlying mental illness but the authorities turn a blind eye leaving us with ongoing suffering. She has already caused one person to take their life.

Mad_maxx

Miike wrote: »

No. No it shouldn't. The current system is in place to prevent inappropriate admissions which it does in the large.

The current system results in people either killing themselves or others

Sardonicat

Miike wrote: »

No. No it shouldn't. The current system is in place to prevent inappropriate admissions which it does in the large.

It prevents highly appropriate admissions too.

BlackandGreen

corner of hells wrote: »

I was going to give an answer from proffesional experience but fcuk it .

Literally how I feel about most threads I see on this site when it comes to my professional area. particularly on AH and current affairs. When you see the caliber of posters, and the type of discussion that goes on I wonder....is it worth it?


No is the answer.

Thelonious Monk

Jeremy:
If YOU try to section me Mark you will have crossed a line and I will section you, so help me God...

Doctor:
Look guys. You've had your fun with the sectioning. There's going to be no more sectioning today.

Miike

Sardonicat wrote: »

It prevents highly appropriate admissions too.

Do you work in inpatient psychiatry? or is this lay person assumed "appropriate admissions"?

Spanish Eyes

Sounds to me like there are endless vacancies in pshych wards for everyone.

There are not. And mental health issues are not taken seriously much either. IMV.

Same throughout the Health Service it seems. But mental health issues can prove fatal for others, unlike other health issues that can be fatal for the patient only, and sadly.

Sardonicat

Miike wrote: »

Do you work in inpatient psychiatry? or is this lay person assumed "appropriate admissions"?

I've been ill and in need of care, which I refused because, you know, when an irrational person is asked to make a rational choice they tend not to. Do users and potential users of a service, or the relatives and carers of the same not get to have an opinion based on their direct experience of the system?

Miike

Sardonicat wrote: »

I've been ill and in need of care, which I refused because, you know, when an irrational person is asked to make a rational choice they tend not to. Do users and potential users of a service, or the relatives and carers of the same not get to have an opinion based on their direct experience of the system?

You've experience of a period of illness. You have not got experience of the threshold for involuntary admission or the detailed knowledge of psychiatry, mental disorders or the Mental Health Act which would be appropriate to comment on the need of an admission order. You are entitled to an opinion on aspects of the system you may have experienced but that doesn't come close to qualifying you to assert what is appropriate or inappropriate for section 14 admissions.

Darc19

Under no circumstances should gardai be given such power.

Gardai are phenomenally incompetent when dealing with mental health issues and get no training whatsoever.

The current system here generally means a doctor must first make the decision and to get a garda to take action on behalf of the doctor.

But giving incompetent untrained point scoring people with badges such power is an absolute recipe for disaster.

corner of hells

Darc19 wrote: »

Under no circumstances should gardai be given such power.

Gardai are phenomenally incompetent when dealing with mental health issues and get no training whatsoever.

The current system here generally means a doctor must first make the decision and to get a garda to take action on behalf of the doctor.

But giving incompetent untrained point scoring people with badges such power is an absolute recipe for disaster.

Gardai are actually pretty good when involved in sectioning.

s7ryf3925pivug

First responders in general need better training with how to recognize and deal appropriately with mentally I'll people.

mikemac2

There was a time and it wasn't long ago that over 20,000 citizens were locked away for mental health issues

And some nothing wrong at all but jealous siblings wanted the inheritance and this person was a bit simple and vulnerable and needed to be got rid off

Careful what you wish for OP

Darc19

corner of hells wrote: »

Gardai are actually pretty good when involved in sectioning.

That's under direction and control of a medical professional.

In general, gardai have no experience of mental health and as such, should always have an experienced medical professional person in attendance when there are mental health issues.

They should never be given any powers directly

Blaizes

mikemac2 wrote: »

There was a time and it wasn't long ago that over 20,000 citizens were locked away for mental health issues

And some nothing wrong at all but jealous siblings wanted the inheritance and this person was a bit simple and vulnerable and needed to be got rid off

Careful what you wish for OP

Very good point. Even pregnant mothers sent to Magdalene laundries. Dark days indeed.

corner of hells

Darc19 wrote: »

That's under direction and control of a medical professional.

In general, gardai have no experience of mental health and as such, should always have an experienced medical professional person in attendance when there are mental health issues.

They should never be given any powers directly

How would you have a medical professional beside a Garda all the time ?

corner of hells

Darc19 wrote: »

That's under direction and control of a medical professional.

In general, gardai have no experience of mental health and as such, should always have an experienced medical professional person in attendance when there are mental health issues.

They should never be given any powers directly

I wonder what the Gardai were doing beside me during my training.

Professor Moriarty

corner of hells wrote: »

How would you have a medical professional beside a Garda all the time ?

Gardaí have the power to detain a person who they deem to be a self/other risk until they are seen by a doctor.

corner of hells

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Gardaí have the power to detain a person who they deem to be a self/other risk until they are seen by a doctor.

They do , I've called Gardai during these occasions too and attended the psych. wards afterwards.

Sardonicat

Miike wrote: »

You've experience of a period of illness. You have not got experience of the threshold for involuntary admission or the detailed knowledge of psychiatry, mental disorders or the Mental Health Act which would be appropriate to comment on the need of an admission order. You are entitled to an opinion on aspects of the system you may have experienced but that doesn't come close to qualifying you to assert what is appropriate or inappropriate for section 14 admissions.

With the greatest of respect, you have no idea what I have experience of. The idea that anyone other than mental health professionals should not comment on or discuss what should or should not be deemed appropriate on a matter that can literally effect anyone displays an astonishing arrogance. Do you think everyone other than yourselves is too thick to understand what is at stake? No public debate on the issue should be allowed because the plebs are too stupid to know what's good for them?



I happen to believe that someone whose illness is behind beliefs and behaviours, (that they otherwise would not hold) is resulting in catastrophically self destructive activity that will blight their lives for years to come should be coerced ,if necessary, to engage with services up to and including involuntary admission, if required. I'm not advocating cops picking people up and dropping them at psych units, or families getting their troublesome relatives put away on mere say so. What I am calling for is that people who are putting themselves at risk of unemployment, social isolation and family breakdown directly as a result of a mental illness be afforded protection and care and have someone act on their behalf in their long term interests when they are not able to do so. It is not ok to allow an illness destroy someone's life because they refuse to engage with the service when that refusal is a direct result of the illness in the first place. It is the clinical equivalent of shoulder shrugging.

Rubberchikken

the gardai can barely handle the work theyre supposed to so.
and for a crowd that fail to impress me in any way, they have enough power. what they need is not more power but a thorough overhaul from top to bottom


but, yeah, thats going to happen.

baldshin

As already mentioned, Gardai do have the power to detain someone and have them assessed by a GP who can then refer them to a psychiatric hospital where they can be involuntarily admitted. It is done a lot, I mean a huge amount and is a massive drain on Garda resources. That being said, our Gardai are phenomenal at dealing with these situations and getting help for people.

Darc19

corner of hells wrote: »

How would you have a medical professional beside a Garda all the time ?

The op is about allowing gardai to section people without any professional health input.

Currently a garda can take someone into custody if they believe they could harm themselves, but must at earliest opportunity call a medical professional to assess the person and the gardai must abide by that medical person's decision.

There are many really good gardai out there who would do right, but there are far too many incompetent members who simply have no understanding of mental health

SeaFields

Darc19 wrote: »

That's under direction and control of a medical professional.

In general, gardai have no experience of mental health and as such, should always have an experienced medical professional person in attendance when there are mental health issues.

They should never be given any powers directly

They have those powers by statute and as a professional in the thread has pointed out they are competent in using them when necessary.

corner of hells

Rubberchikken wrote: »

the gardai can barely handle the work theyre supposed to so.
and for a crowd that fail to impress me in any way, they have enough power. what they need is not more power but a thorough overhaul from top to bottom


but, yeah, thats going to happen.

Yep , let's bash the Gardai.

corner of hells

Darc19 wrote: »

The op is about allowing gardai to section people without any professional health input.

Currently a garda can take someone into custody if they believe they could harm themselves, but must at earliest opportunity call a medical professional to assess the person and the gardai must abide by that medical person's decision.

There are many really good gardai out there who would do right, but there are far too many incompetent members who simply have no understanding of mental health

The OP is a regular poster whose input is generally like ' a madmans ****e" , i.e. all over the place.

I've worked quite a bit with Gardai over the years where I've called them over a concerns about individuals health and have never seen anything that has concerned me.
Examples would be people with not just suicidal ideation but an a plan made to end their lives , others who've injested everything up to bleach along with others who with the assistance of Gardai have been sectioned.

Disturbing events and I cannot find fault with any of the Gardai I've dealt with.

Witcher

Rubberchikken wrote: »

the gardai can barely handle the work theyre supposed to so.
and for a crowd that fail to impress me in any way, they have enough power. what they need is not more power but a thorough overhaul from top to bottom


but, yeah, thats going to happen.

I'm sure they're so concerned that they don't 'impress' you...christ almighty....the narcissism:rolleyes:

Darc19

corner of hells wrote: »

I've worked quite a bit with Gardai over the years where I've called them over a concerns about individuals health and have never seen anything that has concerned me.
Examples would be people with not just suicidal ideation but an a plan made to end their lives , others who've injested everything up to bleach along with others who with the assistance of Gardai have been sectioned.

Disturbing events and I cannot find fault with any of the Gardai I've dealt with.

As I said, many gardai are excellent, but there are far too many badge happy incompetents in the force to change the current system.

I assure you that I know this from personal experience and the comments made by a very good psychiatrist

corner of hells

Darc19 wrote: »

As I said, many gardai are excellent, but there are far too many badge happy incompetents in the force to change the current system.

I assure you that I know this from personal experience and the comments made by a very good psychiatrist

Signed and sealed .
Personal experience and a very good psychiatrist trumps everything.

RobbieMD

Darc19 wrote: »

The op is about allowing gardai to section people without any professional health input.

Currently a garda can take someone into custody if they believe they could harm themselves, but must at earliest opportunity call a medical professional to assess the person and the gardai must abide by that medical person's decision.

There are many really good gardai out there who would do right, but there are far too many incompetent members who simply have no understanding of mental health

The only reason Gardaí have those powers in the first place is because we are too cheap to supply a crisis mental health ambulance service that could cope with the workload across the country. In an ideal scenario, the health service should attend these calls and if necessary request garda assistance if the situation is violent.

The Gardaí don’t want to have this power imposed on them but it’s a function they provide simply because they’re a 24hour service.

It’s the same with their power to remove children in danger under the Child Care Act. This should be provided by TUSLA but the Gardai fill the gap outside 9am to 5pm when social workers clock off.

To the poster who said something like Gardai gettin bonus points, you clearly have no clue what you’re talking about. Mental health arrests don’t generate charges or summonses for court. There is nothing in it for the Gardai but waiting around Garda stations for an oncall doctor to come out.

This is a huge drain on Garda resources and needlessly criminalises mental ill health.

corner of hells

RobbieMD wrote: »

The only reason Gardaí have those powers in the first place is because we are too cheap to supply a crisis mental health ambulance service that could cope with the workload across the country. In an ideal scenario, the health service should attend these calls and if necessary request garda assistance if the situation is violent.

The Gardaí don’t want to have this power imposed on them but it’s a function they provide simply because they’re a 24hour service.

It’s the same with their power to remove children in danger under the Child Care Act. This should be provided by TUSLA but the Gardai fill the gap outside 9am to 5pm when social workers clock off.

To the poster who said something like Gardai gettin bonus points, you clearly have no clue what you’re talking about. Mental health arrests don’t generate charges or summonses for court. There is nothing in it for the Gardai but waiting around Garda stations for an oncall doctor to come out.

This is a huge drain on Garda resources and needlessly criminalises mental ill health.

This bloke talks good ****.

Mad_maxx

mikemac2 wrote: »

There was a time and it wasn't long ago that over 20,000 citizens were locked away for mental health issues

And some nothing wrong at all but jealous siblings wanted the inheritance and this person was a bit simple and vulnerable and needed to be got rid off

Careful what you wish for OP

We've swung to the other extreme now

kurtainsider

corner of hells wrote: »

I was going to give an answer from proffesional experience but fcuk it .

Hello Corner of Hells.
I would agree 100% with you that as soon as someone asks a question on AH people with zero knowledge but a substantial chip on their shoulders pile in with their know-nothing opinions. It's best, in my view, to keep out of it at that stage because you are just wasting your time.

On the other hand it was unfortunate that you misspelled professional. It didn't help your argument.

corner of hells

kurtainsider wrote: »

Hello Corner of Hells.
I would agree 100% with you that as soon as someone asks a question on AH people with zero knowledge but a substantial chip on their shoulders pile in with their know-nothing opinions. It's best, in my view, to keep out of it at that stage because you are just wasting your time.

On the other hand it was unfortunate that you misspelled professional. It didn't help your argument.

That was just a test to see who noticed.
I tip my hat to you, sir.

kurtainsider

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Can a husband still sign his wife into an institution?

Asking for a friend

Can the mods please move this post to the 1950's?

Graces7

Darc19 wrote: »

That's under direction and control of a medical professional.

In general, gardai have no experience of mental health and as such, should always have an experienced medical professional person in attendance when there are mental health issues.

They should never be given any powers directly

Agree totally; Gardaí can be of great value when directed by a dr when there is no second dr available.

The system in the UK is much easier and more flexible and more open to abuse.

Sober Crappy Chemis

If I was worried about a friend’s mental health and felt Garda intervention was required, I would simply contact the Gardai and report him for a motoring offence and they would appear by magic. That’s the only thing they are interested in.