Accounting fees

D3V!L

An accountant I have been using for years sent me a bill recently with an increase of €100 on last year's fee of €200 for an annual tax return.

They completed the work and never informed me of the increase in fees. Their argument is that no other client complained. Am I right in thinking that because they didn't inform me they have increased their fee substantially what they did is unlawful ?

C3PO

What law would you think they are breaking?

Trigger Happy

Did they charge you what was agreed before the work started?
Or did you engage them without checking how much it would cost?

D3V!L

Trigger Happy wrote: »

Did they charge you what was agreed before the work started?
Or did you engage them without checking how much it would cost?

They have been my accountants for several years. They did the work this year and increased their charges without telling me by 50%.

D3V!L

D3V!L wrote: »

They have been my accountants for several years. They did the work this year and increased their charges without telling me by 50%.

Did they increase the fees over those several years? Is €200 a typo?

D3V!L

Dav010 wrote: »

Did they increase the fees over those several years? Is €200 a typo?

It was €200 last year, it was increased to €300 this year without any warning or communication.

D3V!L

D3V!L wrote: »

It was €200 last year, it was increased to €300 this year without any warning or communication.

You posted that they did your accounts for several years, did they raise the price during those several years?

TitianGerm

D3V!L wrote: »

It was €200 last year, it was increased to €300 this year without any warning or communication.

Is it an income tax return? What sources of income do you have?

D3V!L

TitianGerm wrote: »

Is it an income tax return? What sources of income do you have?

Yes, an income tax return for a dormant company.

Happy4all

D3V!L wrote: »

Yes, an income tax return for a dormant company.

Company? Is it not a corporation tax return?

D3V!L

Happy4all wrote: »

Company? Is it not a corporation tax return?

Are you an accountant ?

TitianGerm

D3V!L wrote: »

Yes, an income tax return for a dormant company.

A company return is a CT return not an income tax return. Did the €300 also include the CRO filing? There was also an RBO (Register Of Businesses Owners) filling this year which was am absolute nightmare.

D3V!L

D3V!L wrote: »

Are you an accountant ?

Company owners tend to know these things.

D3V!L

TitianGerm wrote: »

A company return is a CT return not an income tax return. Did the €300 also include the CRO filing? There was also an RBO (Register Of Businesses Owners) filling this year which was am absolute nightmare.

Regardless of what whats involved. My question was regarding a service provider changing their fees and not informing their client before the work is carried out.

D3V!L

D3V!L wrote: »

Regardless of what whats involved. My question was regarding a service provider changing their fees and not informing their client before the work is carried out.

Increased company filing costs and judging by your not answering the question about price rises over several years leads me to think there weren’t any, would explain the increase to most. What did they say when you asked them about it?

mrcheez

D3V!L wrote: »

An accountant I have been using for years sent me a bill recently with an increase of €100 on last year's fee of €200 for an annual tax return.

They completed the work and never informed me of the increase in fees. Their argument is that no other client complained. Am I right in thinking that because they didn't inform me they have increased their fee substantially what they did is unlawful ?

it seems odd to charge you more than was agreed... a fairer approach is to warn you before work is done, thus giving you the option to refuse. Just offer to pay the price that was previously agreed.

TitianGerm

D3V!L wrote: »

Regardless of what whats involved. My question was regarding a service provider changing their fees and not informing their client before the work is carried out.

Your fee is extremely cheap and if it includes the RBO filing your very lucky. Most firms were charging €100-€150 + Vat for it on its own. I heard of three separate firms charging €400 + Vat for it. In that €300 you've been invoiced as well there is €56 of Vat and a €40 filing fee for the CRO.

If your not happy I suggest calling into the practice and asking why you weren't informed of the fee increase. I'd say you've been undercharged for a few years now and it was finally spotted.

mrcheez

mrcheez wrote: »

it seems odd to charge you more than was agreed... a fairer approach is to warn you before work is done, thus giving you the option to refuse. Just offer to pay the price that was previously agreed.

I suspect the op will be looking for a new accountant, with higher fees soon enough.

Darc19

Dav010 wrote: »

I suspect the op will be looking for a new accountant, with higher fees soon enough.

I suspect the op will realise they are getting very good value at €300

D3V!L

Darc19 wrote: »

I suspect the op will realise they are getting very good value at €300

I suspect the OP got it sorted. Thanks for all your input.

Sleeper12

D3V!L wrote: »

Regardless of what whats involved. My question was regarding a service provider changing their fees and not informing their client before the work is carried out.

300 euro is very reasonable for the work carried out.


It's up to you to get a quote beforehand. If you didn't get a quote first then he can charge what he wants. What he charged you last year has no bearing on what he charged you this year

boombang

The lack of straight answers to the OP here?!

If I had a question for clarification, then I would state the context first, for the benefit of the OP and anybody else who might be reading.

Sleeper12

boombang wrote:

The lack of straight answers to the OP here?!

Did you not read the post directly above yours? I answered ops question.

OP should have gotten a quote. Failing to get a quote means accountant can charge whatever they want. Most likely though accountant had to spend more time with this years return

TitianGerm

D3V!L wrote: »

I suspect the OP got it sorted. Thanks for all your input.

You were the OP? Was the practice not closed today? Did you rang the accountant out of office hours then this morning to query the bill?

Edit: nevermind I see the thread was started last week so OP was probably in touch last week before the holidays.

boombang

boombang wrote: »

The lack of straight answers to the OP here?!

If I had a question for clarification, then I would state the context first, for the benefit of the OP and anybody else who might be reading.

Did the op ask for a quote before instructing accountants? Is the op aware of fees for company account filing? Did the fees rise at all over the several years the accountants were doing accounts for op?

Context: How do you know you are overcharged if you didn’t get a quote? Does the op know the fees involved in filing? If the op hasn’t had an fee increase in several years, he/she was due one, €200 is very low cost for preparation and filing of accounts.

beauf

What would people feel is a reasonable range of fees for these services.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

What would people feel is a reasonable range of fees for these services.

A dormant company, with beneficial ownership registration - €300 would be lower end imo.

boombang

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Did you not read the post directly above yours? I answered ops question.

OP should have gotten a quote. Failing to get a quote means accountant can charge whatever they want. Most likely though accountant had to spend more time with this years return

Your answer was posted as I was composing my comment. I did not see it.

In general I was trying to comment on what I took to be a unhelpful tone of many to the OP's question. People on boards can be very helpful, but sometimes I think they are unnecessarily hostile.

D3V!L

boombang wrote: »

Your answer was posted as I was composing my comment. I did not see it.

In general I was trying to comment on what I took to be a unhelpful tone of many to the OP's question. People on boards can be very helpful, but sometimes I think they are unnecessarily hostile.

Thanks, I have a feeling there are a high percentage of accountants on boards.ie and I hit a nerve.

D3V!L

D3V!L wrote: »

Thanks, I have a feeling there are a high percentage of accountants on boards.ie and I hit a nerve.

Shur, do the returns yourself. It's a dormant company, no need to be paying highly trained professionals to do it.

boombang

D3V!L wrote: »

Thanks, I have a feeling there are a high percentage of accountants on boards.ie and I hit a nerve.

I thought exactly the same thing, especially from the defensiveness I read in the responses.

boombang

boombang wrote: »

I thought exactly the same thing, especially from the defensiveness I read in the responses.

You don't think the OP is being defensive? Right...

beauf

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A dormant company, with beneficial ownership registration - €300 would be lower end imo.

What's the upper end?

D3V!L

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You don't think the OP is being defensive? Right...

Please elaborate

beauf

beauf wrote: »

What's the upper end?

A big four doing the same work could easily be double if not more.

beauf

boombang wrote: »

I thought exactly the same thing, especially from the defensiveness I read in the responses.

Theres a lot of criticism much of it valid but also a lot of not answering the question.

D3V!L

D3V!L wrote: »

Please elaborate

I'm assuming you know what being defensive means...

D3V!L wrote: »

Are you an accountant ?

D3V!L wrote: »

I suspect the OP got it sorted. Thanks for all your input.

D3V!L wrote: »

Thanks, I have a feeling there are a high percentage of accountants on boards.ie and I hit a nerve.

boombang

Deleted User wrote: »

You don't think the OP is being defensive? Right...

I honestly don't.

I don't think the issue is is the fee fair or in line with market prices, it's about giving notice on large price changes. I thought the OP asked a very reasonable question and got a load of additional questions in return rather than helpful replies.

boombang

boombang wrote: »

I honestly don't.

The OP is suggesting that the answers are biased because it's accountants that are answering. This has not been confirmed, but assumed by the OP. 100% defensive.

boombang wrote: »

... got a load of additional questions in return rather than helpful replies.

As any company owner will know there was an onerous requirement this year more so than prior years. I take the opposite view, it was genuine to ask for additional information. To reply it's best to be informed. The OP doesn't come across as the most knowledgeable. There are sever penalties for not completed the beneficial ownership return, and it is wholly the company owners responsibility to complete, but if you do have an accountant they will likely be informed through the CRO that their client needs to complete. In my case, both I and my accountant got the notice to file.



If he was only charged an extra €100 for the registration of beneficial ownership requirement it was the lowest charge I've heard of.

beauf

Seems like people think if some one doesn't get a quote its ok to charge them what they like.

The op made a mistake in not getting a quote. The service provider make a mistake in not warning them off increases.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

Seems like people think if some one doesn't get a quote its ok to charge them what they like.

The op made a mistake in not getting a quote. The service provider make a mistake in not warning them off increases.

I don’t think it is reasonable to expect fees to stay static for several years, nor is it reasonable to expect the fee to not take into account increases in filing costs which are outside the professional fees charged by the accountant.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

The service provider make a mistake in not warning them off increases.

Do you believe the accountancy practice carried out the extra, EU required work without telling the OP in advance? Did the OP expect this to be done for free? What was the accountant's mistake, not assuming the OP expected free work?


The OP should look to windup the company otherwise he will keep incurring fees.

martyoo

The fee is very low but they should have informed you of the increase. I'd stick with them OP as I think you'd struggle to find another accountant that would do it for the same price.

thegetawaycar

I'm not sure I'd be too happy if my service provider suddenly added 50% on my bill without notice when I had a fee agreement in place for several years. It seems poor business practice.

I'm sure there is reason for it but it probably would make sense if the Accountant informed the customer that this years fee would be 50% more in advance of doing the work. If the OP had a contract in place saying the cost (even from years ago) and there was no addendum or update in advance I'd expect it to remain binding (unless dated).

thegetawaycar

thegetawaycar wrote: »

I'm not sure I'd be too happy if my service provider suddenly added 50% on my bill without notice when I had a fee agreement in place for several years. It seems poor business practice.

I'm sure there is reason for it but it probably would make sense if the Accountant informed the customer that this years fee would be 50% more in advance of doing the work. If the OP had a contract in place saying the cost (even from years ago) and there was no addendum or update in advance I'd expect it to remain binding (unless dated).

*Sigh*


50% sounds massive, where do I get my pitchfork - let's storm their offices.:rolleyes: This was a change from €200 to €300 not €4,000 to €6,000.


The OP was paying €200 for minimum work required for filing a tax return for a dormant company, and that's what €200 of the €300 was made up of. This year there was an extra EU mandated requirement that the accountant completed. I don't believe for a second the accountant completed this without input from the OP.


But, the OP should make a massive deal out of this with his accountant, that I'd wage considers it a pain in the hoop to manage for €200 a year, ffs! You do know accountants are allowed to drop clients, happens all the time if they are not economical.



I suppose it's good that the Devil's company is dormant, nobody has any truck with that business anymore :pac:

beauf

[Deleted User] wrote: »

*Sigh*


50% sounds massive, where do I get my pitchfork - let's storm their offices.:rolleyes: This was a change from €200 to €300 not €4,000 to €6,000.


The OP was paying €200 for minimum work required for filing a tax return for a dormant company, and that's what €200 of the €300 was made up of. This year there was an extra EU mandated requirement that the accountant completed. I don't believe for a second the accountant completed this without input from the OP.


But, the OP should make a massive deal out of this with his accountant, that I'd wage considers it a pain in the hoop to manage for €200 a year, ffs! You do know accountants are allowed to drop clients, happens all the time if they are not economical.



I suppose it's good that the Devil's company is dormant, nobody has any truck with that business anymore :pac:

I see so it's the amount that's important not the principal.

beauf

Dav010 wrote: »

I don’t think it is reasonable to expect fees to stay static for several years, nor is it reasonable to expect the fee to not take into account increases in filing costs which are outside the professional fees charged by the accountant.

Fees can go down as well as up.

The message in getting here is don't trust anyone always get quotes as they may slap on extra fees or charges on a whim without warning.

It's the same advice you give too getting work done on your car. They like to surprise customers with extra's also.

beauf

[Deleted User] wrote: »

*Sigh*


50% sounds massive, where do I get my pitchfork - let's storm their offices.:rolleyes: This was a change from €200 to €300 not €4,000 to €6,000.


.. .

You'd be horrified to know that if you're service provider changes your contract they are obliged to release you from the contract if you request it and inform you of the same. Even if it's €5

beauf

beauf wrote: »

I see so it's the amount that's important not the principal.

Materiality does matter. €200 is a nominal sum, as is €300. Not sure what the OP's Principal has to do with it, he's not at school anymore



I think there's an expectation if there is extra work being carried out there's going to be an extra fee (cheap in this instance). If (which is almost certainly true) the accountant said I've got to fill out this extra return for you and the OP said grand, and the OP didn't ask how much extra the accountant did nothing wrong. Nothing.



If you go to get your car serviced and it's normally just and oil and filter, but this year the garage says you need an oil, filter and new brakes, and you say fine without asking the price - is the garage then wrong when the bill comes back €100 more expensive (that's a rhetorical question).

beauf

beauf wrote: »

You'd be horrified to know that if you're service provider changes your contract they are obliged to release you from the contract if you request it and inform you of the same. Even if it's €5

I refer you to post 49.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

Fees can go down as well as up.

The message in getting here is don't trust anyone always get quotes as they may slap on extra fees or charges on a whim without warning.

Dealing specifically with the OP, you'd have a point if he was overcharged. I think even the OP has got the message at this stage he wasn't.