Reimbursement receipt (company didn't charge me VAT)

Johnnygeorge

I work for a events agency, I was asked to print 160 a4 sheets for an event. I was told to get the receipt so I could be reimbursed.
Everything was good I asked for the receipt, I got a hand written receipt i didn't think anything of it.
Accounts emailed me asking for a printed receipt that includes VAT and the quantity.
I emailed the print company and they said they could not give me a printed receipt as I "paid cash price". I asked for the receipt twice regardless of paying cash price.(it must have gone under the table)
I can't get reimbursed without the printed receipt, where do I stand?
I'm a college student I'd really like my 50e back but I don't know where to go from here, any advice would be greatly appreciated.

P. S my housemates told me to tell them I'd tell revenue but I don't know if that will get me very far....

Darc19

Email them and ask if there's any reason why they cannot provide you with a receipt.

Cc the email to a revenue.ie email address - make one up with an unusual name. It will bounce back to you, but they won't know it.

It works a treat.

colm_mcm

Copy Conor pope. People love doing that

Highroad12

Sounds like they are hiding sales. Revenue would be extremely interested.

Johnnygeorge

Darc19 wrote: »

Email them and ask if there's any reason why they cannot provide you with a receipt.

Cc the email to a revenue.ie email address - make one up with an unusual name. It will bounce back to you, but they won't know it.

It works a treat.

But they have told me I can't geta receipt as it was a "cash sale"

Midnight_EG

Johnnygeorge wrote: »

But they have told me I can't geta receipt as it was a "cash sale"

You get a VAT receipt when you pay cash in every other shop... They can do it.

Johnnygeorge

Johnnygeorge wrote: »

But they have told me I can't geta receipt as it was a "cash sale"

You posted in your op that they gave a receipt, ex vat. Go back in and pay the full price for the printing, then get your receipt.

Darc19

Dav010 wrote: »

You posted in your op that they gave a receipt, ex vat. Go back in and pay the full price for the printing, then get your receipt.

Nope. Company told him it was €50 and only gave him the "cash price" excuse afterwards.

There is no such thing as as a "cash price" that excludes vat, hence this is vat fraud by the printer (albeit a minor one)

Op is entitled to a receipt for €50 incl vat.

Darc19

Darc19 wrote: »

Nope. Company told him it was €50 and only gave him the "cash price" excuse afterwards.

There is no such thing as as a "cash price" that excludes vat, hence this is vat fraud by the printer (albeit a minor one)

Op is entitled to a receipt for €50 incl vat.

Actually the op is not entitled to a receipt, there is no obligation on the seller to give one. And the op was only charged the quoted price, cash or otherwise.

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/shopping/buying-goods/buying-goods/

whomitconcerns

The c in that page is the key. This was a business purchase not a consumer purchase, and the business would find it tough to deny they would have known that due to the nature of the order

whomitconcerns

whomitconcerns wrote: »

The c in that page is the key. This was a business purchase not a consumer purchase, and the business would find it tough to deny they would have known that due to the nature of the order

I’d say the op is the key, it says he/she is a student and €50 is a lot. I doubt the op is a vat registered business, but of course I could be wrong.

Darc19

You cannot charge a non vat inclusive price. You can quote one alright in b2b sales, but it's fraud not charging it.

Johnnygeorge

Dav010 wrote: »

I’d say the op is the key, it says he/she is a student and €50 is a lot. I doubt the op is a vat registered business, but of course I could be wrong.

I'm not VAT registered and yes 50e is a lot and I really don't want to go without it

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Johnnygeorge wrote: »

I'm not VAT registered and yes 50e is a lot and I really don't want to go without it

Nothing to do with you personally being VAT registered. You were acting in behave of a business.

Johnnygeorge

Stevie Damaged Punch wrote: »

Nothing to do with you personally being VAT registered. You were acting in behave of a business.

So what do I do now I really want to get my money back

Johnnygeorge

Johnnygeorge wrote: »

So what do I do now I really want to get my money back

Get the person who you are working for to contact them.

I have to disagree with Srameen, you ordered and paid for the prints, I’m not sure if it makes much difference to the printers that you were “acting” for someone else, if you had been, the receipt would be made out to them and they would be invoiced.

To me, I think the company you are working for are being arses about this, for the sake of €50, people hey should pay you. How much did you bill them for your time in getting the prints?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Dav010 wrote: »

Get the person who you are working for to contact them.

I have to disagree with Srameen, you ordered and paid for the prints, I’m not sure if it makes much difference to the printers that you were “acting” for someone else, if you had been, the receipt would be made out to them and they would be invoiced.

To me, I think the company you are working for are being arses about this, for the sake of €50, people hey should pay you. How much did you bill them for your time in getting the prints?

Every day of the week somebody working for a business buys goods or services and pays with cash, for which their employer reimburses them. This is no different.

Stevie Damaged Punch

Stevie Damaged Punch wrote: »

Every day of the week somebody working for a business buys goods or services and pays with cash, for which their employer reimburses them. This is no different.

True, and in most cases the employer just pays them, that is why in this case I think it’s the event manager that is being the arse. From the printers point of view, they don’t know or care who the prints are for, they quoted a price and delivered for that price.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Dav010 wrote: »

True, and in most cases the employer just pays them, that is why in this case I think it’s the event manager that is being the arse. From the printers point of view, they don’t know or care who the prints are for, they quoted a price and delivered for that price.

My former employers wouldn't pay a petty cash receipt without VAT shown. The printers need to break the charge down. No big deal if they're tax compliant and hardly going to find it's way back to them anyway.

Stevie Damaged Punch

Stevie Damaged Punch wrote: »

My former employers wouldn't pay a petty cash receipt without VAT shown. The printers need to break the charge down. No big deal if they're tax compliant and hardly going to find it's way back to them anyway.

Again, no obligation to give a receipt to the op, if the op was going to pass it on, he should have stated the need for one when he ordered the prints, particularly if he knew it would be needed for reimbursement.

silver2020

Dav010 wrote: »

Again, no obligation to give a receipt to the op, if the op was going to pass it on, he should have stated the need for a vat receipt when he ordered the prints, particularly if he knew it would be needed for reimbursement.

If the copies were obviously for an event, it would be known that it was a b2b transaction and a receipt should have been issued under revenue guidelines

https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/value-added-tax/part09-obligations-accountable-persons/records/obligations-records-requirement-to-furnish-certain-information.pdf

silver2020

silver2020 wrote: »

If the copies were obviously for an event, it would be known that it was a b2b transaction and a receipt should have been issued under revenue guidelines

https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/value-added-tax/part09-obligations-accountable-persons/records/obligations-records-requirement-to-furnish-certain-information.pdf

Read thread, op has already confirmed he is not a business. Beyond dealing with the person who ordered and paid for them, why would the business assume anything else? To be fair, most businesses who order stuff from printers would give their business name for vat receipt. I’d be wondering why the event manager didn’t inform the op what they needed, in advance, and why they didn’t order prints themselves, I bet they avoid paying people like the op a lot.

lordlame

You got the prints
You paid for the prints out of your own pocket
You got a receipt albeit a hand written one

I think the accountant / manager is being difficult given the circumstances.

Don’t buy anything out of your own pocket again for them

silver2020

Dav010 wrote: »

Read thread, op has already confirmed he is not a business. Beyond dealing with the person who ordered and paid for them, why would the business assume anything else? To be fair, most businesses who order stuff from printers would give their business name for vat receipt. I’d be wondering why the event manager didn’t inform the op what they needed, in advance, and why they didn’t order prints themselves, I bet they avoid paying people like the op a lot.

why are the printers being so difficult?
A receipt would take a minute to print off.

Printing attracts vat @23%, so the only reason why the printer is being difficult is because the €50 went into their pocket and not through the books.

gibgodsman

I work for a printing company and we do cash deals all the time, lots of customers refuse to pay VAT on anything and there is not much we can do because every competitor is doing the same thing. I handle situations like this for my business and I know if a customer came back looking for a receipt having already got a hand written CASH RECEIPT, I would request they pay the VAT and I would create and Invoice for the job.

silver2020

silver2020 wrote: »

why are the printers being so difficult?
A receipt would take a minute to print off.

Printing attracts vat @23%, so the only reason why the printer is being difficult is because the €50 went into their pocket and not through the books.

The printers aren't being difficult, they did the prints for the price quoted and gave a receipt for the cash amount paid, it is the event organisers who are being difficult by not paying the op even though he got the prints, he paid for them, he gave them the receipt.

ants09

Johnnygeorge wrote: »

I emailed the print company and they said they could not give me a printed receipt as I "paid cash price". ....

Ask them for a receipt under section 66(1) of the VATCA 2010 and if they fail to provide you with the required receipt then you will report them to VAT section of Revenue Commissioners with a copy of the receipt they issued and them saying ' cash receipt'

Dav010 wrote: »

Again, no obligation to give a receipt to the op, if the op was going to pass it on, he should have stated the need for a vat receipt when he ordered the prints, particularly if he knew it would be needed for reimbursement.

gibgodsman wrote: »

I work for a printing company and we do cash deals all the time, lots of customers refuse to pay VAT on anything and there is not much we can do because every competitor is doing the same thing. I handle situations like this for my business and I know if a customer came back looking for a receipt having already got a hand written CASH RECEIPT, I would request they pay the VAT and I would create and Invoice for the job.

If that is the case with the printing company that you work for and you said that to me, i would phone up the revenue there and then and report you, There is no such thing a cash receipt, what is going on is that it is not being declared to Revenue, that is not my problem or the OP's problem, but you can't ask for hey give me the vat element and we issue you with the receipt

OP a client a few years ago got a revenue audit, guess what they had a receipt that was hand written that said CASH RECEIPT.

ants09

ants09 wrote: »

Ask them for a receipt under section 66(1) of the VATCA 2010 and if they fail to provide you with the required receipt then you will report them to VAT section of Revenue Commissioners with a copy of the receipt they issued and them saying ' cash receipt'
.

As a matter of interest, When you quote 66(1) of the VATCA to the Printer, in your opinion, and considering the op has clearly stated he is not VAT registered and is not a business, when the Printer asks you which one of these applies to you, what would you say?

Issue of invoices and other documents.:

66.—(1) An accountable person— (a) who supplies goods or services

(i) to another accountable person,

(ii) to a public body,

(iii) to a person who carries on an exempted activity,

(iv) to a person (other than an individual) in another Member State of the Community in such circumstances that tax is chargeable at any of the rates specified in section 46 (1), or

(v) to a person in another Member State who is liable to pay value-added tax pursuant to the VAT Directive on such supply,

FishOnABike

If you were willing to pay the printer an additional €11.50 would they give you a receipt for €61.50 (inclusive of €11.50 vat @23% of €50.00)? If they will then give that receipt to the event organiser and claim your €61.50 expenses.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Dav010 wrote: »

As a matter of interest, When you quote 66(1) of the VATCA to the Printer, in your opinion, and considering the op has clearly stated he is not VAT registered and is not a business, when the Printer asks you which one of these applies to you, what would you say?

Issue of invoices and other documents.:

66.—(1) An accountable person— (a) who supplies goods or services

(i) to another accountable person,

(ii) to a public body,

(iii) to a person who carries on an exempted activity,

(iv) to a person (other than an individual) in another Member State of the Community in such circumstances that tax is chargeable at any of the rates specified in section 46 (1), or

(v) to a person in another Member State who is liable to pay value-added tax pursuant to the VAT Directive on such supply,

He was acting on behalf of his employer. Many times people are sent out to get goods or services and bring back a receipt for reimbursement. I'm not sure what is so alien about this. It happens every day of the week. His error was not specifying a VAT receipt but that is not beyond salvaging.

Stevie Damaged Punch

Stevie Damaged Punch wrote: »

He was acting on behalf of his employer. Many times people are sent out to get goods or services and bring back a receipt for reimbursement. I'm not sure what is so alien about this. It happens every day of the week. His error was not specifying a VAT receipt but that is not beyond salvaging.

Just pay the vat then and get the receipt made out to an accountable/vat registered company then. Problem solved.

I really don’t know why you keep posting that the op got the prints on behalf of someone else, there is no confirmation in the ops posts that he informed the Printer of this.

ants09

Dav010 wrote: »

As a matter of interest, When you quote 66(1) of the VATCA to the Printer, in your opinion, and considering the op has clearly stated he is not VAT registered and is not a business, when the Printer asks you which one of these applies to you, what would you say?

Issue of invoices and other documents.:

66.—(1) An accountable person— (a) who supplies goods or services

(i) to another accountable person,

(ii) to a public body,

(iii) to a person who carries on an exempted activity,

(iv) to a person (other than an individual) in another Member State of the Community in such circumstances that tax is chargeable at any of the rates specified in section 46 (1), or

(v) to a person in another Member State who is liable to pay value-added tax pursuant to the VAT Directive on such supply,

As a matter of interest, he is acting on behalf of his employer, so yes the employer is a accountable person, so the OP is in this suitation.

FishOnABike wrote: »

If you were willing to pay the printer an additional €11.50 would they give you a receipt for €61.50 (inclusive of €11.50 vat @23% of €50.00)? If they will then give that receipt to the event organiser and claim your €61.50 expenses.

Why should he have to pay VAT again, it is not the OP's fault that the printer didn't account for VAT correctly.

Dav010 wrote: »

Just pay the vat then and get the receipt made out to an accountable/vat registered company then. Problem solved..

He doesn't have to pay vat again, he paid for a service, it is not the OP's fault that the printer didn't account for VAT or done a CASH JOB.


All the OP has to do is report the printer to the Revenue Commissioners and give a copy of the receipt they got and 'CASH JOB'

Dav010 wrote: »

I really don’t know why you keep posting that the op got the prints on behalf of someone else, there is no confirmation in the ops posts that he informed the Printer of this when ordering.

The OP doesn;t have to.
Show me in the Vat acts where the op has to tell the printer that he is getting the prints on behalf of someone else or a vatable individual or organization

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Dav010 wrote: »

Just pay the vat then and get the receipt made out to an accountable/vat registered company then. Problem solved.

I really don’t know why you keep posting that the op got the prints on behalf of someone else, there is no confirmation in the ops posts that he informed the Printer of this when ordering.

He doesn't have to state it's for a business up front in order for the printers to abide by the law. Lots of people buy fuel or goods and then ask for a receipt for expenses claims. They don't have to identify as an agent of a business for the vendor to charge a different price. You keep ignoring that the printer is the body pulling a stunt here.

To both Ants90 and Srameen, a retailer is not required to give a receipt to a consumer. That is the law, if you don’t believe it, google is your friend.

As for acting on behalf of an Accountable person, ie, a vat registered business, then you have to tell the Printer you are a business, not just a consumer. If you don’t, then you are just a guy ordering a couple of prints.

Stevie Damaged Punch

Stevie Damaged Punch wrote: »

He doesn't have to state it's for a business up front in order for the printers to abide by the law. Lots of people buy fuel or goods and then ask for a receipt for expenses claims. They don't have to identify as an agent of a business for the vendor to charge a different price. You keep ignoring that the printer is the body pulling a stunt here.

What you don’t seem to realise and accept is, when you buy fuel, though the provider gives you a receipt, you are not actually entitled to it unless you are a vat registered/accountable person buying it on behalf of your business. If you don’t identify yourself as such, you are just a consumer buying fuel and not actually and legally entitled to a receipt.


https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/shopping/buying-goods/buying-goods/

Lucifer

Dav010 wrote: »

What you don’t seem to realise and accept is, when you buy fuel, though the provider gives you a receipt, you are not actually entitled to it unless you are a vat registered/accountable person buying it on behalf of your business. If you don’t identify yourself as such, you are just a consumer buying fuel and not actually and legally entitled to a receipt.


https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/shopping/buying-goods/buying-goods/

What you are leaving out is that the petrol station would charge vat to both customers, not add the vat when a receipt is required.

Lucifer

If he quoted him as a consumer then the price must include vat.

whippet

It’s splitting hairs here ... the method of payment nor the person acquiring the services has any bearing on the obligation of the printing company to charge and collect VAT on the transaction.

The printer is doing the age old ‘cash’ trick and not declaring the VAT on this transaction.

The customer was quoted 50 quid for the job and this should include a VAT element.

The OP obviously asked for a receipt so they could claim expenses and this should have included a breakdown of VAT .. there is no such thing as a ‘cash price’ the correct term is revenue fraud.

Mind you I think the employers are being a bit anal not accepting the original receipt .. however if they have had issues with cash receipts previously they might be more careful and want to ensure that they are above board tax wise.

The OPs issue is with the printer .. if the OP lets the printer know that they intend to make quick call to revenue looking for advise on to proceed .. the printer might suddenly come up with a VAT receipt

FishOnABike

whippet wrote: »

The OPs issue is with the printer .. if the OP lets the printer know that they intend to make quick call to revenue looking for advise on to proceed .. the printer might suddenly come up with a VAT receipt

The OP's issue is with both his employer and with the printer.

He was asked to perform a task by his employer (getting the leaflets printed) for which he is entiled to be reimbursed expenses. The employer does not appear to have informed him of their strict policy regarding the format of the receipt they required. The employer should accept the cash receipt and pay what they owe the OP.

The printer should not have charged a 'cash price' . All sales include VAT where it is due.

The OP could
(1) advise his employer of the difficulty they have with getting a duplicate receipt from the printers with VAT itimesed separately and the only way they might be able to force it is by using the threat of reporting the printers to revenue for suspected VAT fraud. This will obviously make it difficult for his employer to use this print company again. It's a small business it might affect his employer's relationship with other local print companies.
(2) advise their employer he will claim against them either in the small claims court or district court for the money owed and make sure it gets as much publicity as it can in local media.
(3) I'm sure the lesson is learned, but never pay up front out of your own pocket for something. Insist things are paid for either on account between businesses, using a company card or by a cash advance. Let others know the problems they might face reclaiming expenses after the fact.

It's very short sighted for a business not to pay what it owes. It could cause them far more problems than it's worth.

whippet

FishOnABike wrote: »

The OP's issue is with both his employer and with the printer.

He was asked to perform a task by his employer (getting the leaflets printed) for which he is entiled to be reimbursed expenses. The employer does not appear to have informed him of their strict policy regarding the format of the receipt they required. The employer should accept the cash receipt and pay what they owe the OP.

The printer should not have charged a 'cash price' . All sales include VAT where it is due.

The OP could
(1) advise his employer of the difficulty they have with getting a duplicate receipt from the printers with VAT itimesed separately and the only way they might be able to force it is by using the threat of reporting the printers to revenue for suspected VAT fraud. This will obviously make it difficult for his employer to use this print company again. It's a small business it might affect his employer's relationship with other local print companies.
(2) advise their employer he will claim against them either in the small claims court or district court for the money owed and make sure it gets as much publicity as it can in local media.
(3) I'm sure the lesson is learned, but never pay up front out of your own pocket for something. Insist things are paid for either on account between businesses, using a company card or by a cash advance. Let others know the problems they might face reclaiming expenses after the fact.

It's very short sighted for a business not to pay what it owes. It could cause them far more problems than it's worth.

I’ve no idea what the OP’s company’s finance package is like - but if it is a proper expenses application that ties in to the finance package it might not be able to accept a receipt without vat on it .. and the finance assistant might not be able to process it. Making a wholesale comment like get cash up front or business account etc is nonsense - I know my business wouldn’t be able to work with out staff claiming expenses for loads of things - life isn’t perfect neither is business ... but the crux of this problem is a business doing a tax dodge - not the OP or the OP’s employers

FishOnABike

whippet wrote: »

I’ve no idea what the OP’s company’s finance package is like - but if it is a proper expenses application that ties in to the finance package it might not be able to accept a receipt without vat on it .. and the finance assistant might not be able to process it. Making a wholesale comment like get cash up front or business account etc is nonsense - I know my business wouldn’t be able to work with out staff claiming expenses for loads of things - life isn’t perfect neither is business ... but the crux of this problem is a business doing a tax dodge - not the OP or the OP’s employers

It should be simple for the employer to reimburse him the €50 and enter it as €40.65 + €9.35 VAT in their accounts package.

I know most business wouldn’t be able to work with out staff claiming expenses for loads of things - life isn’t perfect neither is business ... his employer should act according and reimburse his expenses.

FishOnABike

FishOnABike wrote: »

It should be simple for the employer to reimburse him the €50 and enter it as €40.65 + €9.35 VAT in their accounts package.

I know most business wouldn’t be able to work with out staff claiming expenses for loads of things - life isn’t perfect neither is business ... his employer should act according and reimburse his expenses.

Totally agree, and even if they couldn’t, surely they would have petty cash, €50 is hardly going to break them.

Be interested to know the ops relationship to the Event company, is he an employee who picked up something on behalf of them, or is it a casual arrangement where the op is a student who they just contact when they have an event in his college. Given that they wanted the op to pay out of his own pocket, I suspect it’s the latter.

ants09

Dav010 wrote: »

To both Ants90 and Srameen, a retailer is not required to give a receipt to a consumer. That is the law, if you don’t believe it, google is your friend.

As for acting on behalf of an Accountable person, ie, a vat registered business, then you have to tell the Printer you are a business, not just a consumer. If you don’t, then you are just a guy ordering a couple of prints.

Dav010 wrote: »

True, I don’t think that is being disputed by anyone, but that still doesn’t obligate the business to give the op a vat receipt, nor any receipt for that matter. I wonder why the Printer gave the cash price quote, I doubt that would be typical, unless it was discussed with the op when ordering.

FishOnABike wrote: »

It should be simple for the employer to reimburse him the €50 and enter it as €40.65 + €9.35 VAT in their accounts package.

I know most business wouldn’t be able to work with out staff claiming expenses for loads of things - life isn’t perfect neither is business ... his employer should act according and reimburse his expenses.

Dav010 wrote: »

As a matter of interest, When you quote 66(1) of the VATCA to the Printer, in your opinion, and considering the op has clearly stated he is not VAT registered and is not a business, when the Printer asks you which one of these applies to you, what would you say?

Issue of invoices and other documents.:

66.—(1) An accountable person— (a) who supplies goods or services

(i)

(ii) to a public body,

(iii) to a person who carries on an exempted activity,

(iv) to a person (other than an individual) in another Member State of the Community in such circumstances that tax is chargeable at any of the rates specified in section 46 (1), or

(v) to a person in another Member State who is liable to pay value-added tax pursuant to the VAT Directive on such supply,

The OP is an accountable person in relation to VAT Legislation.

Dav010 wrote: »

To both Ants90 and Srameen, a retailer is not required to give a receipt to a consumer. That is the law, if you don’t believe it, google is your friend.

As for acting on behalf of an Accountable person, ie, a vat registered business, then you have to tell the Printer you are a business, not just a consumer. If you don’t, then you are just a guy ordering a couple of prints.

The printer is obliged to issued a VAT receipt/invoice as they are supplying a vatable activity to a accountable person, yes the OP is a accountable person in the context of VAT

Dav010 wrote: »

True, I don’t think that is being disputed by anyone, but that still doesn’t obligate the business to give the op a vat receipt, nor any receipt for that matter. I wonder why the Printer gave the cash price quote, I doubt that would be typical, unless it was discussed with the op when ordering.

FishOnABike wrote: »

It should be simple for the employer to reimburse him the €50 and enter it as €40.65 + €9.35 VAT in their accounts package.

That is VAT FRAUD what you are suggesting

Dav010 wrote: »

Totally agree, and even if they couldn’t, surely they would have petty cash, €50 is hardly going to break them.

Be interested to know the ops relationship to the Event company, is he an employee who picked up something on behalf of them, or is it a casual arrangement where the op is a student who they just contact when they have an event in his college. Given that they wanted the op to pay out of his own pocket, I suspect it’s the latter.

The employer or event company can't do that as that is put quite simply VAT FRAUD.


The OP's relationship with the Event Company is irrelavant, doesn't matter if he/she is a employee or has some casual arrangement etc


What is relevant is that the Printing company is obliged under VAT Legislation to issued a vat reciept/invoice to the OP

ants09

ants09 wrote: »

The OP is an accountable person in relation to VAT Legislation.

The OP's relationship with the Event Company is irrelavant, doesn't matter if he/she is a employee or has some casual arrangement etc

For clarity.

According to Revenue:

What is an accountable person?

A person who is required to charge VAT in the State is referred to as an accountable person.

An accountable person is a taxable person (for example, an individual, partnership, company) who:

• supplies taxable goods or services in the State

AND

• who is, or is required to be, registered for VAT.


The op has confirmed that he is not a business, and is not VAT registered, so therefore the op is not required to charge VAT, ergo, is not an accountable person under VAT legislation.

And again, under the very part of the VATCA you yourself referenced, he is not entitled to a receipt unless he is one of the entities listed in 66(1). You are now arguing against the legislation you quoted, which clearly lays out who is entitled to it..

ants09

FishOnABike wrote: »

It should be simple for the employer to reimburse him the €50 and enter it as €40.65 + €9.35 VAT in their accounts package.

I know most business wouldn’t be able to work with out staff claiming expenses for loads of things - life isn’t perfect neither is business ... his employer should act according and reimburse his expenses.

Dav010 wrote: »

Totally agree, and even if they couldn’t, surely they would have petty cash, €50 is hardly going to break them.

Be interested to know the ops relationship to the Event company, is he an employee who picked up something on behalf of them, or is it a casual arrangement where the op is a student who they just contact when they have an event in his college. Given that they wanted the op to pay out of his own pocket, I suspect it’s the latter.

Are you promoting VAT FRAUD or do you think that this is legal and disagree that this is VAT FRAUD

Dav010 wrote: »

For clarity.

According to Revenue:

What is an accountable person?

A person who is required to charge VAT in the State is referred to as an accountable person.

An accountable person is a taxable person (for example, an individual, partnership, company) who:

• supplies taxable goods or services in the State

AND

• who is, or is required to be, registered for VAT.


The op has confirmed that he is not a business, and is not VAT registered, so therefore the op is not required to charge VAT, ergo, is not an accountable person under VAT legislation.

And again, under the very part of the VATCA you yourself referenced, he is not entitled to a receipt unless he is one of the entities listed in 66(1). You are now arguing against the legislation you quoted, which clearly lays out who is entitled to it..

Great we have somebody that read 1 section of VATCA's and think that they are an expert in VAT :rolleyes:.


1 - Is the OP a Accountable Person under VAT Legislation

2 - Is the OP a Taxable Person under VAT Legislation
3 - Is the OP's Work an Accountable or Taxable organization under VAT Legislation
4 - If the OP's work is an accountable or taxable organization under VAT Legislation, then as an employee or is the OP stepping into the shoes of that organization under VAT Legislation

ants09

ants09 wrote: »

Great we have somebody that read 1 section of VATCA's and think that they are an expert in VAT :rolleyes:.


1 - Is the OP a Accountable Person under VAT Legislation

2 - Is the OP a Taxable Person under VAT Legislation
3 - Is the OP's Work an Accountable or Taxable organization under VAT Legislation
4 - If the OP's work is an accountable or taxable organization under VAT Legislation, then as an employee or is the OP stepping into the shoes of that organization under VAT Legislation

1. No. Op not vat registered.
2. If the op pays tax on income, then he is taxable, but not accountable underr Vat legislation, see the explanation from Revenue above. Only accountable persons are entitled to a receipt, op is not vat registered. The op may pay tax on income if it reaches the threshold, but as he is not vat registered, he cannot charge vat for his services.
3. Yes if they require a VAT receipt from the op.
4. In your previous post you said the ops relationship to his employer is “irrelevant”, now you are saying it is relevant, which is it?

Stop digging, the legislation you advised the op to use literally answers the questions you asked above.

ants09

Dav010 wrote: »

1. No.
2. No under Vat legislation, see the explanation from Revenue above. Only accountable persons are entitled to a receipt, op is not vat registered. The op may pay tax on income if it reaches the threshold, but as he is not vat registered, he cannot charge vat for his services.
3. Yes if they require a VAT receipt from the op.
4. In your previous post you said the ops relationship to his employer is “irrelevant”, now you are saying it is relevant, which is it?

Stop digging.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/vat/reclaiming-vat/who-can-reclaim-vat.aspx


You cannot reclaim VAT on the following costs even if you are registered for VAT and make only taxable supplies:

• food, drink or other personal services for yourself, your agents or employees. The exception being to the extent that they are part of a taxable supply of services

So that means point 2 + 4 is applicable in the above suitation


Case Close


As i said previously its amazing people who read 1 section of VATCA and think they are experts in VAT/Taxation.



There is over 5k pages in VAT Acts


They cover not just Accountable Persons, Persons not Accountable, treatment of personas not accountable, Supply of Services, Issue of Invoices and other Documents, etc


Not to mention Taxes and Duties Manuals issued by the Revenue Commissioners and they one of them deal with employee expenses


When you read the VATCA's then maybe we can have a meaningful discussion


It's amazing also that you didn't answer my first question - are you promoting VAT FRAUD

ants09

Dav010 wrote: »

Oh God, save me.

The reason you can’t reclaim vat on those items even if you are vat registered is that they are personal expenses and you can’t claim them as part of your business. I have a VAT registered business, I cannot claim my lunch, glass of wine etc at lunchtime, that would be personal services. But if those items are part of my business, I can.

That applies to what accountable/vat registered persons can and can’t claim, but the op is not vat registered.

If the op is not vat registered, the VATCA does not apply, he is just a consumer. The VATCA only applies to vat registered/accountable persons.

That iis why I asked about relationship with the Event management company, which you said is irrelevant.

The op said in there opening post

'I was asked to print 160 a4 sheets for an event'

Which is applicable, as vat can be claimed by the event company on those

what part do you not understand

Well maybe since you didn;t study taxation and pratice it everyday then you don't know the in's and out of what your are talking about


What part of



You cannot reclaim VAT on the following costs even if you are registered for VAT and make only taxable supplies:

• food, drink or other personal services for yourself, your agents or employees. The exception being to the extent that they are part of a taxable supply of services

Do you not understand :eek:

The OP was asked by the events company 'to print 160 a4 sheets for an event' which is a taxable event

So the events company can claim vat on that

The printing company should issue a taxable invoice/receipt to the OP so that the events company can reclaim the vat portion in there vat return

paul71

ants09 wrote: »

The op said in there opening post

'I was asked to print 160 a4 sheets for an event'

Which is applicable, as vat can be claimed by the event company on those

what part do you not understand

Well maybe since you didn;t study taxation and pratice it everyday then you don't know the in's and out of what your are talking about


What part of



You cannot reclaim VAT on the following costs even if you are registered for VAT and make only taxable supplies:

• food, drink or other personal services for yourself, your agents or employees. The exception being to the extent that they are part of a taxable supply of services

Do you not understand :eek:

Seriously man, you are all over the place here dav010 is correct and explained it clearly and simply. You are jumping all around and confusing non claimable items which have NOTHING to do with the situation described. The service here is printing NOT food or petrol.

ants09

Dav010 wrote: »

Earlier you posted that the ops relationship to the Event Manager is irrelevant.

This is why I asked what the ops relationship is. If the op ordered a he prints in a personal capacity and did not give the EMs details for invoice, then the printer has no reason to give a receipt.

I posted earlier, I don’t condone fraud.

Stop digging.

It is irrelevant the OP's position or relationship is



It doesn't matter if the OP is an employee, sub-contractor, director, volunteer etc as the printing of 160 a4 sheets was for the events company


Take it this way.


Somebody that is self employed or a company that is below the vat threshold or vat exempt activity, are they not also entitled to a receipt, or invoice ? as if not then how would they be able to prove the expenses that was paid by cash etc


Petrol you are not allowed to claim vat back on, but diesel you are


But in petrol stations you can get a vat receipt on pertol :rolleyes:


Taxi drives are vat exempt but most taxi drivers have diesel cars, and when they buy diesel they get receipts from the petrol stations which show the vat portion on it, but they can't claim it, as they are vat exempt


VAT is complex and i don't expect everyone to have a understanding of it


But to read one paragraph, of vat legislation and then think they know what they are talking about, but don't read other parts that is more relevant or equally relevant to the area, or the revenue taxes and duties manual's in relation to VAT or printing or employee expeness

ants09

paul71 wrote: »

Seriously man, you are all over the place here dav010 is correct and explained it clearly and simply. You are jumping all around and confusing non claimable items which have NOTHING to do with the situation described. The service here is printing NOT food or petrol.

Read the paragraph again





You cannot reclaim VAT on the following costs even if you are registered for VAT and make only taxable supplies:

• food, drink or other personal services for yourself, your agents or employees. The exception being to the extent that they are part of a taxable supply of services

It says the exception ---- which means :rolleyes: