Proposal of motorists to be penalised for driving in the city...

supervento

What are people’s thoughts on this?

I think it’s hard to believe they are even considering the stuff outlined in this article considering the public transport in Dublin..

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/drivers-face-parking-ban-and-tolls-in-city-centres-38787615.html

Dravokivich

Get rid of on street parking. Use it to extend QBCs or footpaths.

Heres Johnny

supervento wrote: »

What are people’s thoughts on this?

I think it’s hard to believe they are even considering the stuff outlined in this article considering the public transport in Dublin..

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/drivers-face-parking-ban-and-tolls-in-city-centres-38787615.html

I live in West Dublin and I have my choice of 4 bus routes that pass through my town and a train that can get me into Dublin City centre. I expect most, but I will admit not all, have plenty of options to get into Dublin but just choose to drive.

Brian?

supervento wrote: »

What are people’s thoughts on this?

I think it’s hard to believe they are even considering the stuff outlined in this article considering the public transport in Dublin..

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/drivers-face-parking-ban-and-tolls-in-city-centres-38787615.html

It’s badly needed. The amount of single occupancy cars driving into Dublin every day is disgraceful.

I know what everyone is going to say here, but it was all said about the congestion charges in London, which is a success.

supervento

Dravokivich wrote: »

Get rid of on street parking. Use it to extend QBCs or footpaths.

Yes definitely would be the right thing to do..... more bus lanes/ bus routes..

Dravokivich

Heres Johnny wrote: »

I live in West Dublin and I have my choice of 4 bus routes that pass through my town and a train that can get me into Dublin City centre. I expect most, but I will admit not all, have plenty of options to get into Dublin but just choose to drive.

Most of the people commuting into the city with their cars are doing so from outside Dublin. Most of the people commuting within Dublin in their cars is becuase public transport is heavily focused towards the city centre and its not where they want to go.

Brian?

Dravokivich wrote: »

Most of the people commuting into the city with their cars are doing so from outside Dublin. Most of the people commuting within Dublin in their cars is becuase public transport is heavily focused towards the city centre and its not where they want to go.

For people commuting in from outside Dublin - Park and Ride.

For people commuting around the Dublin suburbs - probably not going to be an issue as the charges will be for the city centre.

Heres Johnny

Dravokivich wrote: »

Most of the people commuting into the city with their cars are doing so from outside Dublin. Most of the people commuting within Dublin in their cars is becuase public transport is heavily focused towards the city centre and its not where they want to go.

Agreed with your points but take the ones out of their cars that don't need to be and the rest will flow much more freely. I will admit I commute about 5kms by car that I have excellent public option so I'm part of the problem but if I was somehow disincentivised I might change my mindset.

Del2005

Brian? wrote: »

It’s badly needed. The amount of single occupancy cars driving into Dublin every day is disgraceful.

I know what everyone is going to say here, but it was all said about the congestion charges in London, which is a success.

Which underutilised part of our public transport (PT) will these people use during rush hour? I see buses, trams and trains full to the gills at rush hour, where will all the extra people go? If it is implemented then the current car drivers will start using PT at the terminus so current users won't be able to access intermediate stops. While the buses will travel a bit faster there still won't be enough, the Luas and trains are already at peak capacity and utilisation during rush hour.

Where's the proposal for Park and Ride on all the motorways with express buses into cities?

angel eyes 2012

It currently takes me 20 to 25 minutes in the car from my door to my desk. If I take the bus it could be over an hour easily, I faint on the train due to lack of space so that's a no-brainer for me.

ianobrien

I can see the merit in reducing on-street parking, increased park and ride, increased public transport, banning anything but a Euro 5 & 6 vehicle, etc but I'm afraid that investment in eliminating pinch points on ring roads will be stopped in the name of "forcing commuters onto public transport".

People should be allowed to skirt around the outside of town freely and easily (reducing pollution from cars idling, less fender bender accidents from crawling in traffic, etc) but I can see people not realising that public transport should be using these outer orbital routes but they dont.

There are two types of commuter, those who work in the city centre and those who work in the suburbs/outskirts. Getting people into city centres efficiency via public transport is what they should look at (and it would benefit shops as shoppers could also get in easily). For the people who work in the suburbs, orbital busses should be used.

For the people who live in the countryside (thanks to our love of one off houses), the car is the only option. Large park and ride would benefit them. Then, you have the likes of me which live 25 minutes from work but if I used public transport, it would take almost 3 hours to get to work!

Isambard

Dravokivich wrote: »

Get rid of on street parking. Use it to extend QBCs or footpaths.

it has to happen at some stage...I'd add more bicycle lanes too (although with less cars you might not need to

OEP

I don't understand why we have so much on street parking, for a city with such small streets. Like the north quay between Heuston and O'Connell Street, why are cars allowed to park there.

jam_mac_jam

The city is about to come to a standstill with traffic most of which is one person in a car. About time. Something needs to be done. I understand public transport needs to be improved but there are people who don't need to drive who are driving

Seth Brundle

On many of the city centre streets, pedestrians have about half the width of a parking space on which to walk, cyclists are forced to share road space with cars, trucks, busses, etc. - it's mental.
It simply is no longer sustainable to have cars come into the city, especially during the daytime where most vehicles have only one person in them.



We
In order to improve PT we need to have three things: 1) improved infrastructure (more dedicated bus lanes, more thought into our route network, more vehicles (busses, trains, etc.)), 2) more enforcement of the existing laws and 3) and attitude change across society that the car is not the primary mode of transport.

Without a doubt, we need to improve the infrastructure. Bus Connects would have been an ideal plan had the politicians and NIMBYists stayed away from it and let the experienced people get on with it.
Still, what is proposed currently is a damn sight better overall that what is currently there.

In terms of enforcement, we should allow bus camera footage to be used to tackle illegal bus lane usage (the NTA are in favour of this but the Dept of Justice are against :rolleyes:).
Bus lanes should be 24/7 - none of this 07:00 to 19:00 with a break for lunchtime nonsense - either it is a bus lane or it is not!
I for one also believe that a taxi under 8 seats should not be allowed to use a bus lane.

We could have a PT system that gets people from A to B quickly. If people decided to drive by car, then let them but as there is a higher inftastructural cost, let them pay for it through higher parking charges, congestion charges or whatever. Cars never should have been given the dominant position in our cities. Without trying to sound like Boris Johnson, it is time to take control back!

is_that_so

Sort out the public transport options first. That plan has all the looks of a cart before the horse.

is_that_so

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

The city is about to come to a standstill with traffic most of which is one person in a car. About time. Something needs to be done. I understand public transport needs to be improved but there are people who don't need to drive who are driving

You can either incentivize or punish car owners. Judging by the increasing number of cars I see heading for the €10 morning toll in the Port Tunnel extra tolls won't bother them. Some, however, have little choice.

Isambard

is_that_so wrote: »

Sort out the public transport options first. That plan has all the looks of a cart before the horse.

you can't

The cars are in the way.

supervento

Brian? wrote: »

It’s badly needed. The amount of single occupancy cars driving into Dublin every day is disgraceful.

I know what everyone is going to say here, but it was all said about the congestion charges in London, which is a success.

Yes definitely the congestion charge zone and Ulez zone has been and is a success in London. The public transport system in the city is excellent overall..

AlmightyCushion

Dravokivich wrote: »

Get rid of on street parking. Use it to extend QBCs or footpaths.

Need to tackle illegal parking as well. It's fecking everywhere. I have a less than 5 minute walk to my bus stop from my apartment. I passed at least 10 cars parked illegally on the foot path this morning. That doesn't include the ones I seen from the bus on my way to work.

is_that_so

Isambard wrote: »

you can't

The cars are in the way.

Because the users can't get access to good public transport.

Seth Brundle

is_that_so wrote: »

You can either incentivize or punish car owners. Judging by the increasing number of cars I see heading for the €10 morning toll in the Port Tunnel extra tolls won't bother them. Some, however, have little choice.

Everyone has a choice and in terms of punishing them, they are choosing the least efficient mode of transport into a congested city. It should not be easier for them to travel than a bus with 50 to 80 people!

Seth Brundle

is_that_so wrote: »

Sort out the public transport options first. That plan has all the looks of a cart before the horse.

Many of the public transport options are already there. People are just choosing not to use them.
It all has to be done together, what you are suggesting has been the excuse to stay in your car for decades.

is_that_so

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Everyone has a choice and in terms of punishing them, they are choosing the least efficient mode of transport into a congested city. It should not be easier for them to travel than a bus with 50 to 80 people!

People don't care about efficiency and will put up with the inconvenience of traffic in favour of being able to guarantee their own form of transport. If people are much more than 15m from public transport they will not consider it a good option.

jon1981

Has to happen. Change is not easy but there's too much reliance on cars coming into the city centre. Every day in the city I'm passing by cars with sole occupants, makes no sense. I know of co-workers that commute by car from 6-8km out from city centre. It's these people that will be targeted, there is zero excuse for taking the car daily into town.

Seth Brundle

is_that_so wrote: »

People don't care about efficiency and will put up with the inconvenience of traffic in favour of being able to guarantee their own form of transport. If people are much more than 15m from public transport they will not consider it a good option.

That's fine but they should not be given priority over other road users, which to a large extent is currently the case.
We should not be allocating valuable road space for motorist commuters to park their cars while other road users fight for space.
If someone wants to drive into a city then it should take longer (as pedestrians, busses and bicycles should have priority) and it should be costly to park. We need to incentivise publilc transport.

Mickeroo

Seems like a no brainer.

is_that_so

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Many of the public transport options are already there. People are just choosing not to use them.
It all has to be done together, what you are suggesting has been the excuse to stay in your car for decades.

Eh, they are not at all. Drumcondra, an inner suburb, is a very good example. You can be anything up to 20m waiting to get on bus in the mornings, through the bunching, delays or packed buses. On the DART line frequency has dropped for some stations, particularly on the Howth line. There are parts of West Dublin with poor bus links, especially in the likes of Lucan.

Seth Brundle

is_that_so wrote: »

Eh, they are not at all. Drumcondra, an inner suburb, is a very good example. You can be anything up to 20m waiting to get on bus in the mornings, through the bunching, delays or packed buses. On the DART line frequency has dropped for some stations, particularly on the Howth line. There are parts of West Dublin with poor bus links, especially in the likes of Lucan.

If you read my post I used the word "many" when referring to the options. I also earlier mentioned how we need to increase the vehicle numbers.
Either way, there is no excuse for not moving with this now.
As for bunching, a lot of this is caused by cars blocking bus lanes.

beauf

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Many of the public transport options are already there. People are just choosing not to use them.
It all has to be done together, what you are suggesting has been the excuse to stay in your car for decades.

I only half agree with you. A lot of public transport is very unpleasant. Overcrowded, expensive and inconvenient. Obviously a lot drive because it's just easier.

I used to rarely drive to work, mostly train, some cycling. But for the last couple of years I've increasingly switched back to the car. For a couple of reasons, injuries meant walking and standing on train was very difficult. But also I had frequently to go somewhere not easily accessible by public transport on the way home.

This year I'm hoping to find an alternative like an electric bike or scooter might be realistic alternative. I'd prefer to avoid public transport.

cruizer101

Isambard wrote: »

you can't

The cars are in the way.

The first train on the northern commuter line gets in to pearse for 7:04, it is a 4 carriage which is fairly packed.
The next train is meant to get into pearse for 7:35 but more often than not gets delayed and only get in around 7:50, it is too unreliable for those who need to get into work for 8 and have a bit of walk in city.

In the evenings trains fill up in Pearse, no seats for people at other stops, and from after 6 there is only around one train an hour.

There is no cars in the way of the terrible service here.

Improve services like this and people will naturally move away from driving in.

beauf

In the past 5 yrs they've reduced capacity on my train. It is now about half the length it used to be, but while it used to half empty its now overcrowded most of the time. Must be many times more people on it. People being physically ill or fainting is not uncommon.

But yet they expect this line to take more new housing and people of the roads.

Isambard

beauf wrote: »

In the past 5 yrs they've reduced capacity on my train. It is now about half the length it used to be, but while it used to half empty its now overcrowded most of the time. Must be many times more people on it. People being physically ill or fainting is not uncommon.

But yet they expect this line to take more new housing and people of the roads.

it sort of makes sense to reduce the length of a half empty train by half and use the resources elsewhere.

jon1981

Should this be moved to commuting and transport? Conversation seems to have broadened to all transport discussion?

kennethsmyth

supervento wrote: »

Yes definitely the congestion charge zone and Ulez zone has been and is a success in London. The public transport system in the city is excellent overall..

Nope, talking to my friends in london, the rich dont give an f and drive anyway - only the working people lose out. However they have very good public transport including AN UNDERGROUND!

shnaek

The real shame about Dublin is that they never built an underground. I know the cost of public infrastructure here is a mystery to even the brightest minds - the Children's hospital is just one crowning example - we don't seem to be able to build anything without it quadrupling in price, but we just aren't very good at planning for the future. This report compares Dublin to Stockholm, which is laughable. Stockholm has had an underground since the 50s, and its underground has 100 stations. That's just the underground. It also has trams and bus. Now, it's easy for me to talk, I don't live in Dublin.
Here in Cork I lived on a bus route to work. The bus stop was uncovered on both ends, was 10 minutes walk from where I live. If it was raining you could be standing there for up to 40 minutes sometimes. Then it would stop in town for ten minutes, sometimes it stopped at the bus station so the driver could go in and do something. So the journey to work was anything from 40 minutes at best to 1hr40 minutes. It took 20 minutes in the car. Door to door. No standing in the rain or cold. I am not time rich, far from it, so car was in every way the best solution. But I did live in Germany and Australia, in cities with subways. I lived in the centre. I never even thought of getting a car.
What I see happening in other cities, like London, is that businesses in the city are closing and being replaced by coffee shops and restaurants. The likes of local hardware stores are gone. Perhaps that is the best way, if cities are car free and just have food shops, restaurants, pubs and cafe's and if you want to buy bulky or heavy things you drive to locations outside the city. Nobody wants to be stuck in traffic for hours. Nobody wants to wait in the cold and rain for ages for a bus. Trouble is, Ireland just isn't great at sorting this stuff out, and it usually just ends up as a money grab.

AlmightyCushion

is_that_so wrote: »

Eh, they are not at all. Drumcondra, an inner suburb, is a very good example. You can be anything up to 20m waiting to get on bus in the mornings, through the bunching, delays or packed buses. On the DART line frequency has dropped for some stations, particularly on the Howth line. There are parts of West Dublin with poor bus links, especially in the likes of Lucan.

I travel through Drumcondra on the bus every morning and evening. A large part of the issue is the bus getting stuck behind private cars (including taxis). They need to have a bus lane the whole way to the airport and there shouldn't be any other cars in it, including taxis.

Del2005

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Many of the public transport options are already there. People are just choosing not to use them.
It all has to be done together, what you are suggesting has been the excuse to stay in your car for decades.

People are choosing not to use the public transport options do you mean that we have empty buses, trains and trams entering our cities in the morning and leaving in the evening. Where are these underutilised routes?

AlmightyCushion

Del2005 wrote: »

People are choosing not to use the public transport options do you mean that we have empty buses, trains and trams entering our cities in the morning and leaving in the evening. Where are these underutilised routes?

They don't have to be empty to be underutilised.

is_that_so

Seth Brundle wrote: »

If you read my post I used the word "many" when referring to the options. I also earlier mentioned how we need to increase the vehicle numbers.
Either way, there is no excuse for not moving with this now.
As for bunching, a lot of this is caused by cars blocking bus lanes.

It's actually scheduling, which is acknowledged in BusConnect, "too many" bus stops and all those people who want to get on a bus! In my Drumcondra example, a bus convoy could add 5m or more to a 25m bus journey, all done in bus lanes.

is_that_so

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I travel through Drumcondra on the bus every morning and evening. A large part of the issue is the bus getting stuck behind private cars (including taxis). They need to have a bus lane the whole way to the airport and there shouldn't be any other cars in it, including taxis.

Taxis are considered public transport, in the sense that you pay for them. They tend to duck in and out of bus lanes at the slightest provocation.

pablo128

is_that_so wrote: »

Taxis are considered public transport, in the sense that you pay for them. They tend to duck in and out of bus lanes at the slightest provocation.

Taxis are absolutely entitled to use bus lanes as are cyclists. I would guess a cyclist would hold up a bus for longer than a taxi, usually.

Victor

Del2005 wrote: »

Which underutilised part of our public transport (PT) will these people use during rush hour? I see buses, trams and trains full to the gills at rush hour, where will all the extra people go?

Most buses can make 2-3 trips during rush hour. If service can be sped up, those same buses and drivers can make an extra trip, meaning there is 30-50% increase in passenger-carrying capacity for no cost.

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

I faint on the train due to lack of space

I can't comment on your personal circumstances, but most people who faint on public transport are those that haven't eaten properly.

ianobrien wrote: »

I'm afraid that investment in eliminating pinch points on ring roads will be stopped in the name of "forcing commuters onto public transport".

Removing a pinch point just moves traffic from one road to another. It will draw in traffic from other routes and be back to the normal congested situation relatively quickly. Removing pinch points for public transport makes much more sense.

People should be allowed to skirt around the outside of town freely and easily (reducing pollution from cars idling,

This is a misunderstanding. Many modern car turn off their engine when stopped. Being able to speed around the ring road just mean people travel further and faster, with higher fuel consumption.

I can see people not realising that public transport should be using these outer orbital routes but they dont.

That's the plan. The highlighted routes are proposed orbital bus routes.

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

They don't have to be empty to be underutilised.

The most over-used, but underutilised vehicles are cars, with the typical car having 1.25 passengers.

Geuze

Road pricing is the solution.

TuringBot47

cruizer101 wrote: »

The first train on the northern commuter line gets in to pearse for 7:04, it is a 4 carriage which is fairly packed.

In the evenings trains fill up in Pearse, no seats for people at other stops, and from after 6 there is only around one train an hour.

Northern commuter line trains don't stop at all stops on the Dart line.

For me, it's a good 1:45hr journey by public transport with a 3-stage commute or 1hr journey by car door-to-door. No contest.

Really, the huge problem is the number of I.T./financial companies in the city centre. There's no real need for them there apart from perceived ease of recruitment.

The IDA should be giving grants to move them to the outskirts of Dublin / bordering counties.

angel eyes 2012

Victor wrote: »

Most buses can make 2-3 trips during rush hour. If service can be sped up, those same buses and drivers can make an extra trip, meaning there is 30-50% increase in passenger-carrying capacity for no cost.

I can't comment on your personal circumstances, but most people who faint on public transport are those that haven't eaten properly.

I have had serious health difficulties, but neither am I disabled, however due to the lack of space and available seating on the train, I have fainted on several occasions. People need to commute to town for various reasons, attending hospital appointments, carrying heavy and confidential paperwork into the courts - someone earlier questioned the rationale around availability of parking on north quays, shopping when you can't fit kids, bags and boxes on a bike or the bus.

I have been in Vienna and Orlando (strange combination, I know) in the past 18 months and the traffic was considerably worse in both cities, than the traffic in town, I don't think it's that bad at all and I have been driving in town for over 20 years. Now, if we could only ban cycling then the cars could move much quicker (joke).;)

Infini

If only they'd built the Dart Fúcking Underground.... oh wait they said it was "too expensive" even though its
1) Infrastructure
2) Reduces congestion on the railway,
3) Doubles Dart capacity
4) Takes traffic off the damn roads and
5) Pays for itself after a number of years but no it costs too much to build because our gombeens in goverment cant tell the difference between actual costs and infratructural investments sometimes....

CrankyHaus

I'd be very interested to see a survey on the people driving into work in City Centres at rush hour. I have a suspicion that Public Sector Workers would be grossly overrepresented as many public sector offices are located in the city centre with free or assigned parking spaces for many staff. If the Government is serious about addressing congestion and motoring related pollution in city centres then this is something that should be looked at. Ironically those in the public sector that need free or assigned parking spaces the most because they have to work hours when PT is non-existent or very irregular, such as Gardaí or Hospital staff, seem to get the least of it. Gardaí deal with it by parking illegally with impunity while hospital staff just make do.

LeChienMefiant

Dravokivich wrote: »

Most of the people commuting into the city with their cars are doing so from outside Dublin. Most of the people commuting within Dublin in their cars is becuase public transport is heavily focused towards the city centre and its not where they want to go.

Is that supported by the data?

https://irishcycle.com/myths/distances/

LeChienMefiant

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

I have been in Vienna and Orlando (strange combination, I know) in the past 18 months and the traffic was considerably worse in both cities, than the traffic in town, I don't think it's that bad at all and I have been driving in town for over 20 years. Now, if we could only ban cycling then the cars could move much quicker (joke).;)

Traffic may seem benign from the windscreen view, but try living in town and your perception will quickly change. Getting around on foot or cycling is often unpleasant and all too often treacherous. If we want people to live within the M50 then we need to reduce the vehicular traffic. It's not sustainable to have people drive everywhere in these communities, and the level of traffic is self sustaining because it's unpleasant/unsafe to walk/cycle.

AlmightyCushion

pablo128 wrote: »

Taxis are absolutely entitled to use bus lanes as are cyclists. I would guess a cyclist would hold up a bus for longer than a taxi, usually.

They are entitled to use them but they shouldn't be entitled to use them. The buses on the 41 route would be a lot quicker if taxis weren't using bus lanes. Taxis are worse for traffic congestion than private cars. All taxis do is ease demand on parking not on traffic.