Common Travel Area

KWAG2019

The CTA is a leftover from our era as a recently freed colony. It’s been useful but there is a real problem with it from now on as Britain leaves the EU. It gives non EU citizens the right to travel, settle and vote in an EU country while denying those rights to EU citizens other than ourselves. It’s compromising us and undermining the EU. While the slieveen mentality is to hold on to some imagined advantage I can’t see the worth of it. Convince me.

alastair

KWAG2019 wrote: »

The CTA is a leftover from our era as a recently freed colony. It’s been useful but there is a real problem with it from now on as Britain leaves the EU. It gives non EU citizens the right to travel, settle and vote in an EU country while denying those rights to EU citizens other than ourselves. It’s compromising us and undermining the EU. While the slieveen mentality is to hold on to some imagined advantage I can’t see the worth of it. Convince me.

EU membership is an irrelevance to voting rights between the U.K. and Ireland. We had those rights before EU membership, and the only possible issue would be European elections, where UK citizens in Ireland, will no longer be able to vote, as they will no longer be EU citizens (and obviously Irish citizens resident in the UK will not have access to European elections any more). There’s no undermining of the EU whatsoever. On national and local elections - zilch to do with the EU. Also nothing slieveen about it - it’s a reciprocal arrangement.

endacl

^^

Job done.

KWAG2019

alastair wrote: »

EU membership is an irrelevance to voting rights between the U.K. and Ireland. We had those rights before EU membership, and the only possible issue would be European elections, where UK citizens in Ireland, will no longer be able to vote, as they will no longer be EU citizens (and obviously Irish citizens resident in the UK will not have access to European elections any more). There’s no undermining of the EU whatsoever. On national and local elections - zilch to do with the EU. Also nothing slieveen about it - it’s a reciprocal arrangement.

You’re restating what I said about as a left over from a different era ie before EU membership. As members of the EU the relationship with 3rd countries should be the same as any other member state has. Perpetuating the CTA also perpetuatesthe Brits own exceptionalist myth that they can be “ex pats” and have the same treatment as native citizens.

I don’t view those “rights” in the positive way others do. I see no good reason for the CTA to continue after Brexit. Removing the vote from British citizens here would be a good start in getting them to accept that we are a foreign country.

KWAG2019

KWAG2019 wrote: »

You’re restating what I said about as a left over from a different era ie before EU membership. As members of the EU the relationship with 3rd countries should be the same as any other member state has. Perpetuating the CTA also perpetuatesthe Brits own exceptionalist myth that they can be “ex pats” and have the same treatment as native citizens.

I don’t view those “rights” in the positive way others do. I see no good reason for the CTA to continue after Brexit. Removing the vote from British citizens here would be a good start in getting them to accept that we are a foreign country.

Why though.

There are millions in the uk with irish ancestry let alone irish citizens in the uk, even now the NHS and education systems in the uk would suffer without access to Irish workers.

CTA is not going to change just because you have some cranky dislike of it.

The common travel area is one of the foundations of the GFA.

Surely that is a good enough reason alone to leave it well alone?

KWAG2019

mariaalice wrote: »

Why though.

There are millions in the uk with irish ancestry let alone irish citizens in the uk, even now the NHS and education systems in the uk would suffer without access to Irish workers.

CTA is not going to change just because you have some cranky dislike of it.

Stop mis characterizing my points. Your argument that the NHS and British education would suffer without CTA. That is a British argument in favour of a British system. And it’s also false. There is a system in place in Britain for EU citizens to settle. Many Irish have not used it and they should have. There is a legally viable alternative compatible with EU membership.

ancapailldorcha

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Stop mis characterizing my points. Your argument that the NHS and British education would suffer without CTA. That is a British argument in favour of a British system. And it’s also false. There is a system in place in Britain for EU citizens to settle. Many Irish have not used it and they should have. There is a legally viable alternative compatible with EU membership.

Why should we? The CTA has existed for a lot longer than the EEC/EU have. There's nothing wrong with it. The EU knows that Britain and Ireland are a special case. It's probably why we're not in Schengen.

Draco

For purely selfish reasons, I would be happy to see the CTA dropped so we could join Schengen instead.

KWAG2019

Aegir wrote: »

The common travel area is one of the foundations of the GFA.

Surely that is a good enough reason alone to leave it well alone?

The GFA has several foundations. The main ones are the democratic will of the people in Ireland. Joint membership of the EU was the real key. With that gone there is a profound threat to Irish independence within your argument. That is that for the sake of a GFA Ireland accepts a status as a satellite if England. It is a reversion to the 1922-72 era. That suits many unionist views.

KWAG2019

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why should we? The CTA has existed for a lot longer than the EEC/EU have. There's nothing wrong with it. The EU knows that Britain and Ireland are a special case. It's probably why we're not in Schengen.

I dealt with length of existence already. I have pointed out what is wrong with it. The EU has accepted that Ireland made a special case about Brexit. It is now time to see our destiny in Europe and not with the UK. That is a difficult mental adjustment for some: that itself indicative of how ingrained UK centric thinking has become.

ancapailldorcha

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I dealt with length of existence already. I have pointed out what is wrong with it. The EU has accepted that Ireland made a special case about Brexit. It is now time to see our destiny in Europe and not with the UK. That is a difficult mental adjustment for some: that itself indicative of how ingrained UK centric thinking has become.

You didn't. You made a few matter-of-fact statements. You've yet to make a case for doing away with it. Is it actively harming Ireland?

MJohnston

You ended your initial post with "convince me" but you haven't actually done any work to convince anyone of your own stance. Also you don't seem to want to be convinced either.

KWAG2019

KWAG2019 wrote: »

The GFA has several foundations. The main ones are the democratic will of the people in Ireland. Joint membership of the EU was the real key. With that gone there is a profound threat to Irish independence within your argument. That is that for the sake of a GFA Ireland accepts a status as a satellite if England. It is a reversion to the 1922-72 era. That suits many unionist views.

How on earth is ther a profound threat to Irish independence?

Apiarist

KWAG2019 wrote: »

T.... It gives non EU citizens the right to travel, settle and vote in an EU country while denying those rights to EU citizens other than ourselves....

It's not undermining anything as others have already pointed out. Besides, UK citizens will have free travel with the EU after the Brexit, and likely the right to work and settle (probably with the access to the social welfare after paying taxes for X years), with the ability to vote in local elections in EU countries. Same as Norwegians or Swiss.

KWAG2019

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Stop mis characterizing my points. Your argument that the NHS and British education would suffer without CTA. That is a British argument in favour of a British system. And it’s also false. There is a system in place in Britain for EU citizens to settle. Many Irish have not used it and they should have. There is a legally viable alternative compatible with EU membership.

You want the Irish state to stop the CTA fair enough if a little odd and a bit cranky, however, you cant force another state the UK to stop the CTA why would they when its to there advantage.

splinter65

Tell us how Irish people being free to travel freely between here and the uk to live and work at will and not even needing a passport never mind a visa, as we always have done, do now and will continue to do, is actually bad for Irish people.
Tell us how having to apply for passports a visa and possibly a work permit to travel to the uk will be good for Irish people.

splinter65

splinter65 wrote: »

Tell us how Irish people being free to travel freely between here and the uk to live and work at will and not even needing a passport never mind a visa, as we always have done, do now and will continue to do, is actually bad for Irish people.
Tell us how having to apply for passports a visa and possibly a work permit to travel to the uk will be good for Irish people.

No he wants to stop English ' ex-pat's from coming here for some reason.

splinter65

mariaalice wrote: »

No he wants to stop English ' ex-pat's from coming here for some reason.

Well it works both ways the CTA. That’s the “common” part of it.
British tourists spent €971 million in Ireland in 2015.
What does he propose to replace that with?

Kermit.de.frog

Why do you call them "ex-pats"?

Call them what they are - they are British immigrants.

Never understood why the British think their own emigrants are so exceptional as to be deserving of the term "ex-pat" and not "emigrant". Differentiates them in their own minds from the savages from all other countries I suppose.

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Why do you call them "ex-pats"?

Call them what they are - they are British immigrants.

Never understood why the British think their own emigrants are so exceptional as to be deserving of the term "ex-pat" and not "emigrant". Differentiates them in their own minds from the savages from all other countries I suppose.

I have neve heard an English person in ireland descrivbe themselves as an ex-pat.

Kermit.de.frog

mariaalice wrote: »

I have neve heard an English person in ireland descrivbe themselves as an ex-pat.

Yes, because they are immigrants.

splinter65

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Why do you call them "ex-pats"?

Call them what they are - they are British immigrants.

Never understood why the British think their own emigrants are so exceptional as to be deserving of the term "ex-pat" and not "emigrant". Differentiates them in their own minds from the savages from all other countries I suppose.

What are you going on about? Ex-pat is an international expression. Irish ex-pats? US expats?

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Yes, because they are immigrants.

Are they immigrants if their grandmother was Irish what about great grandmother? or are they returned immigrants?

splinter65

splinter65 wrote: »

What are you going on about? Ex-pat is an international expression. Irish ex-pats? US expats?

As far as I can figuer out the poster seem to thing the average English person dose not sufficiently realise that Ireland is a different country.

KWAG2019

victor8600 wrote: »

It's not undermining anything as others have already pointed out. Besides, UK citizens will have free travel with the EU after the Brexit, and likely the right to work and settle (probably with the access to the social welfare after paying taxes for X years), with the ability to vote in local elections in EU countries. Same as Norwegians or Swiss.

I'll repeat that it is undermining the legal order of the EU by having a 3rd country citizens access to an EU state for travel, settlement and voting rights independent of the rules that govern other EU states. Further the citizens of Ireland access UK on a basis independent from EU rules. That is a parallel structure and is un sustainable.

In pointing to possible reciprocal EU rights after Brexit you are actually agreeing with me: the basis for that reciprocity would be EU law. My point is that the CTA is unnecessary in such a scenario and its continuing existence creates a duality and a confusion as outlined above.

I thought the Brits had rejected the Norwegian and Swiss models.

KWAG2019

splinter65 wrote: »

Well it works both ways the CTA. That’s the “common” part of it.
British tourists spent €971 million in Ireland in 2015.
What does he propose to replace that with?

If the CTA ended in light of a UK-EU wide settlement on citizens rights and travel then that the UK-EU agreement would cover tourism. I'm sure that Brits will continue to visit Benidorm etc and Spain will be looking for that tourist revenue to continue. In short the CTA does not form the basis for tourism: it may well make it easier for Brits to travel here but the market has always to adapt to new challenges. It has in the past and it will in the future.

KWAG2019

splinter65 wrote: »

Tell us how Irish people being free to travel freely between here and the uk to live and work at will and not even needing a passport never mind a visa, as we always have done, do now and will continue to do, is actually bad for Irish people.
Tell us how having to apply for passports a visa and possibly a work permit to travel to the uk will be good for Irish people.

How is it bad and how is it good are really the same question.

Some answers:
By constantly seeking derogations, special status and looking to the UK as the first port of call Ireland is undermining its sense of self and its own self respect. I believe it would be good for us to begin to look to Europe much more independently of the UK and to look globally much more. The UK centric view is a previous version of Ireland. It is past time to think our independence and live it.

Whether visas will be needed by Brits to travel within EU has yet to be determined. In practice you already need a passport to fly. During the Northern Violence 1969-1998 I remember the separate queues for Irish people entering Britain and leaving and the form the airlines distributed before disembarkation. Travel documents are nothing new.

Work within a 3rd country should be open to EU citizens as a whole or not at all. We are showing no solidarity with the EU having demanded it in the backstop and having got it.

Salary Negotiator

Being closely alligned to the UK while also being members of the EU can only be a good thing for Ireland, and removing the CTA would remove rights that we have had for generations.

Seems retrograde at best, and stupid or spiteful at worst.

KWAG2019

mariaalice wrote: »

You want the Irish state to stop the CTA fair enough if a little odd and a bit cranky, however, you cant force another state the UK to stop the CTA why would they when its to there advantage.

Leaving aside your repeated mischaracterisation you are actually beginning to see the hidden dimensions of the CTA now. The CTA is the embodiment of the British colonial mindset toward Ireland and other colonies: they exist to supply the "motherland" with labour or raw materials or food. You are demonstrating my point: we need labourers, Ireland; we need soldiers, Ireland (note British forces continue to recruit in Ireland and expect Irish citizens to swear an oath of loyalty to the Queen and her successors); we need food, Ireland. The role you play for the Brits is determined by the CTA. It is a left over and needs sorting.

No more mischaracterisations or ascriptions of mood if you please. The Ignore option is excellent.

KWAG2019

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You didn't. You made a few matter-of-fact statements. You've yet to make a case for doing away with it. Is it actively harming Ireland?

If you look over my answers to other posters you will find my view.

KWAG2019

MJohnston wrote: »

You ended your initial post with "convince me" but you haven't actually done any work to convince anyone of your own stance. Also you don't seem to want to be convinced either.

To reply in kind, your post seems to have no interest in thinking about the matter and has advanced no argument other than an ad hominem. For posts such as yours, the ignore button.

alastair

KWAG2019 wrote: »

How is it bad and how is it good are really the same question.

Some answers:
By constantly seeking derogations, special status and looking to the UK as the first port of call Ireland is undermining its sense of self and its own self respect. I believe it would be good for us to begin to look to Europe much more independently of the UK and to look globally much more. The UK centric view is a previous version of Ireland. It is past time to think our independence and live it.

Whether visas will be needed by Brits to travel within EU has yet to be determined. In practice you already need a passport to fly. During the Northern Violence 1969-1998 I remember the separate queues for Irish people entering Britain and leaving and the form the airlines distributed before disembarkation. Travel documents are nothing new.

Work within a 3rd country should be open to EU citizens as a whole or not at all. We are showing no solidarity with the EU having demanded it in the backstop and having got it.

The CTA isn't UK-centric. It's a reciprocal arrangement between two states.

The separate lines in UK airports during the troubles were no different to the current arrangements - separate disembarkation routes for CTA passengers - which is why they're only filled with Irish and UK passengers from those flights.

KWAG2019

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

Being closely alligned to the UK while also being members of the EU can only be a good thing for Ireland, and removing the CTA would remove rights that we have had for generations.

Seems retrograde at best, and stupid or spiteful at worst.

The problems with these "rights" is outlined in some of my other replies. Times change and previous generations had many experiences of British "rights" that no one wants to revisit. Times have changed decisively with Brexit. The current close alignment with the UK is due to EU membership for 40 years. Divergence is coming very soon and it will prove impossible to maintain a foot in both camps. Stupidity would be seeking to live in the past with the head in the sand. Spite would be trying to stop Ireland developing independently from the UK after Brexit and to maintain a craven psychological dependency. Its an attitude that affects particular elements of IBEC.

KWAG2019

alastair wrote: »

The CTA isn't UK-centric. It's a reciprocal arrangement between two states.

The separate lines in UK airports during the troubles were no different to the current arrangements - separate disembarkation routes for CTA passengers - which is why they're only filled with Irish and UK passengers from those flights.

Ireland doesn't have a CTA with any other country. It is UK centric from that perspective. Of course there are two states in it.

The point about those lines is that bureaucracy was part of travel in the past.

KWAG2019

I'll look back in on this thread in the next day or two.

fly_agaric

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Convince me.

Now is not the time IMO.
Wait & watch for what the UK do over next few years of this government.
If they continue along the line they are on (going for maximum separation with the EU which they know well will cause pain for us & our citizens in NI + don't care) reciprocal/legacy stuff like the CTA, our lax voting rules and the silly Oirish granny citizenship doling out flag-of-convenience passports should all be reviewed in the light of that.

alastair

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Ireland doesn't have a CTA with any other country. It is UK centric from that perspective. Of course there are two states in it.

So it's just as Irish-centric. Or your point is invalid.

KWAG2019 wrote: »

The point about those lines is that bureaucracy was part of travel in the past.

That was a removal of bureaucracy. The alternate airport route involved immigration checks.

splinter65

KWAG2019 wrote: »

How is it bad and how is it good are really the same question.

Some answers:
By constantly seeking derogations, special status and looking to the UK as the first port of call Ireland is undermining its sense of self and its own self respect. I believe it would be good for us to begin to look to Europe much more independently of the UK and to look globally much more. The UK centric view is a previous version of Ireland. It is past time to think our independence and live it.

Whether visas will be needed by Brits to travel within EU has yet to be determined. In practice you already need a passport to fly. During the Northern Violence 1969-1998 I remember the separate queues for Irish people entering Britain and leaving and the form the airlines distributed before disembarkation. Travel documents are nothing new.

Work within a 3rd country should be open to EU citizens as a whole or not at all. We are showing no solidarity with the EU having demanded it in the backstop and having got it.

Ordinary Irish people can go to work in the uk and they don’t need to learn another language. There are huge amounts of Irish people living in the uk making it a home from home.
Not everyone leaving Ireland is looking for a complete change. Hardly any are.
You may remember separate queues 50 years ago but you can buy an Aer Lingus air ticket today and fly to the Uk with no need for a passport.
1000s of small businesses in this country with 1000s of employees are relying on the massive UK tourist industry and you appear to be saying that they can just suck it up.
I don’t think you’ve thought very much about the ordinary people here.
But there’s a lot of that about.

KWAG2019

alastair wrote: »

So it's just as Irish-centric. Or your point is invalid.


That was a removal of bureaucracy. The alternate airport route involved immigration checks.

The CTA is UK centric for Ireland. It is Ireland centric for the UK. It is simple.

The form filling and police interviews during the Northern Violence were bureaucratic. It has been part of Uk travel from Ireland in the past.

Salary Negotiator

KWAG2019 wrote: »

The problems with these "rights" is outlined in some of my other replies. Times change and previous generations had many experiences of British "rights" that no one wants to revisit. Times have changed decisively with Brexit. The current close alignment with the UK is due to EU membership for 40 years. Divergence is coming very soon and it will prove impossible to maintain a foot in both camps. Stupidity would be seeking to live in the past with the head in the sand. Spite would be trying to stop Ireland developing independently from the UK after Brexit and to maintain a craven psychological dependency. Its an attitude that affects particular elements of IBEC.

Why did you put rights in quotation marks?

Time will really only have changed if we get rid of the CTA, something that only you seem to be advocating for. Have any EU members come out in favour of removing it or in opposition to it continuing?


If I understand what you are saying correctly - you want us to withdraw from the CTA so that we benefit more from EU membership and not because the CTA has a negative impact on us. I disagree with both, but at least with the later we could point to some examples, for the former it would essentially be a leap into the unknown similar to Brexit ironically.

KWAG2019

splinter65 wrote: »

Ordinary Irish people can go to work in the uk and they don’t need to learn another language. There are huge amounts of Irish people living in the uk making it a home from home.
Not everyone leaving Ireland is looking for a complete change. Hardly any are.
You may remember separate queues 50 years ago but you can buy an Aer Lingus air ticket today and fly to the Uk with no need for a passport.
1000s of small businesses in this country with 1000s of employees are relying on the massive UK tourist industry and you appear to be saying that they can just suck it up.
I don’t think you’ve thought very much about the ordinary people here.
But there’s a lot of that about.

I am aware of all that you say there. There is a bigger point when you claim that economic dependency of one sector on a foreign state must limit the development of the country. Note I use development to include more than economy. A state is more than an economy as a society is too.

alastair

KWAG2019 wrote: »

The CTA is UK centric for Ireland. It is Ireland centric for the UK. It is simple.

You seem determined to present it as 'maintaining a craven psychological dependency', where no such dependancy exists in the operation of the CTA - it's a mutually beneficial arrangement.

KWAG2019 wrote: »

The form filling and police interviews during the Northern Violence were bureaucratic. It has been part of Uk travel from Ireland in the past.

Nothing to do with the seperate airport lines though - those were purely for the convenience of CTA passengers - Irish and UK alike. I spent many years using them - it's no different than it is today - where you still have to flag your boarding card to be waved through your arrival airport (where CTA routes are applied).

KWAG2019

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

Why did you put rights in quotation marks?

Time will really only have changed if we get rid of the CTA, something that only you seem to be advocating for. Have any EU members come out in favour of removing it or in opposition to it continuing?


If I understand what you are saying correctly - you want us to withdraw from the CTA so that we benefit more from EU membership and not because the CTA has a negative impact on us. I disagree with both, but at least with the later we could point to some examples, for the former it would essentially be a leap into the unknown similar to Brexit ironically.

"Rights" were put in q marks for reasons I gave in another post. In short, the CTA "rights" are an outworking of colonialism not equality.

I am the first I've seen to advocate for it. Originality is the only antidote to groupthink.

I have outlined the negative impact of the CTA.

ancapailldorcha

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I have outlined the negative impact of the CTA.

You haven't. You've just posted a list of soundbites. Where is there a tangible negative impact on either Irish or British people as a direct result of the CTA?

KWAG2019

alastair wrote: »

You seem determined to present it as 'maintaining a craven psychological dependency', where no such dependancy exists in the operation of the CTA - it's a mutually beneficial arrangement.


Nothing to do with the seperate airport lines though - those were purely for the convenience of CTA passengers - Irish and UK alike. I spent many years using them - it's no different than it is today - where you still have to flag your boarding card to be waved through your arrival airport (where CTA routes are applied).

The dependency is intrinsic to it. It is not mutually beneficial at all as I have put in other posts.

I spent many years using them too and they were part of the bureaucracy that existed then which was the point to those who said that that would be something new.

KWAG2019

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You haven't. You've just posted a list of soundbites. Where is there a tangible negative impact on either Irish or British people as a direct result of the CTA?

What do you consider tangible?

KWAG2019

Done for today.

ancapailldorcha

KWAG2019 wrote: »

What do you consider tangible?

A measurable proxy that shows a lesser quality of life for Irish and/or British citizens as a direct result of the CTA. Incomes being adversely effected for example.

jimmycrackcorm

Draco wrote: »

For purely selfish reasons, I would be happy to see the CTA dropped so we could join Schengen instead.

We cannot join Schengen without putting border controls with NI. Otherwise it's free flow from the continent to NI to mainland UK.

alastair

KWAG2019 wrote: »

The dependency is intrinsic to it. It is not mutually beneficial at all as I have put in other posts.

It's not. And you haven't made any persuasive case.

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I spent many years using them too and they were part of the bureaucracy that existed then which was the point to those who said that that would be something new.

Nothing to do with the CTA. You're conflating anti terrorism policy and procedures with the CTA, on the back of no evidence whatsoever. Flight arrangements within the CTA are no different today than they were in the 80's.