Euthanasia - Suicide in Ireland

theguzman

https://www.thejournal.ie/legalisation-euthanasia-ireland-poll-4913894-Dec2019/

63% of Irish people in a recent survey supported Euthanasia.

Lets think about this for a moment, the act of dying is entirely natural, it brings an end to your life and if you are suffering with pain, mental illness or for whatever reason you should be allowed to end your own life in a medically painless way.

Surely bodily autonomy should allow people to do this in respectful way and peaceful way and if relatives or friends decide to help them they should also not run the fear of being prosecuted.

I personally support Euthanasia and a person should be able to walk into a clinic and be able to purchase the lethal drugs required to peacefully end their own life in that clinic irregardless of their health situation under supervision to prevent anyone poisoning anyone else etc.

Suicide and Death is a huge issue in Ireland and rarely discussed and there needs to be a debate around this.

theguzman

theguzman wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/legalisation-euthanasia-ireland-poll-4913894-Dec2019/

63% of Irish people in a recent survey supported Euthanasia.

Lets think about this for a moment, the act of dying is entirely natural, it brings an end to your life and if you are suffering with pain, mental illness or for whatever reason you should be allowed to end your own life in a medically painless way.

Surely bodily autonomy should allow people to do this in respectful way and peaceful way and if relatives or friends decide to help them they should also not run the fear of being prosecuted.

I personally support Euthanasia and a person should be able to walk into a clinic and be able to purchase the lethal drugs required to peacefully end their own life in that clinic irregardless of their health situation under supervision to prevent anyone poisoning anyone else etc.

Suicide and Death is a huge issue in Ireland and rarely discussed and there needs to be a debate around this.

I have no idea how I feel about this.

On one hand, I absolutely agree with a person being able to choose how they die, but another part of me thinks that this will allow people who "have a bad day" to needlessly take their life.

I have had suicidal thoughts in the past and would have definitely availed of the service if it was available. I am very glad it wasn't.

It's like the abortion issue to me. I have contradictory feelings about how I feel about it (if that makes sense)

theguzman

Deleted User wrote: »

I have no idea how I feel about this.

On one hand, I absolutely agree with a person being able to choose how they die, but another part of me thinks that this will allow people who "have a bad day" to needlessly take their life.

I have had suicidal thoughts in the past and would have definitely availed of the service if it was available. I am very glad it wasn't.

It's like the abortion issue to me. I have contradictory feelings about how I feel about it (if that makes sense)

I guess there is similarities, on one hand you have an unborn baby having no right to life anymore and no autonomy whether it can continue to live or otherwise. Then you have the living people having no right to die when it might be what they really want. Obviously two very different issues but with similar ethical dilemmas for opponents or proponents of either issue.

nthclare

I remember having a big abscess once and the pain was so bad id prefer to be dead than put up with that for the rest of my days....

It was horrific, that night I was at home and my son was with me and I couldn't bring him into the hospital so I had to get my dad to come out from limerick to Kilfenora to stay over while I went to the hospital, to get a shot of morphine....

I used to be religious and I really empathised with euthanasia that night/morning and I said if i was ever terminally ill and in pain like this that couldn't managed id ask to be put to sleep.

It wasn't a normal abscess pain this was so bad I couldn't hardly look at the star's above because it was painful, light and pain is a bad mixture..

Gwen Cooper

I support euthanasia for terminally ill people who want to die on their own terms while they can make that decision, before their illness brings them more unnecessary suffering.

It would have to be well regulated though, as there are some fears that there will be people pressured into euthanasia because they are becoming a burden on their family.

I don't think there will ever be a legislation that will allow suicidal people to walk to the clinic and say "hi, I'm Gwen and I want to die. One lethal dose please, for my life is sh*t". I'm saying this as someone who's been suicidal for the last 16 years or so, they just won't let you do it!

NIMAN

Deleted User wrote: »

..... another part of me thinks that this will allow people who "have a bad day" to needlessly take their life.

I don't think its going to be available to people having a bad day.

Gwen Cooper

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

I'm saying this as someone who's been suicidal for the last 16 years or so, they just won't let you do it!

felt odd "thanking" that, but I hope you know what I meant.

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

I don't think its going to be available to people having a bad day.

Some people's "bad day" can last a few months and can be as much as debilitating as a terminal illness so it would be hard not to argue that people with chronic depression should be allowed to avail.

I realise bad day was an incorrect term. I meant people who have gone through a family breakdown, bereavement etc who will recover if given time.

I know it sounded like I was making light. I wasn't.

Sorry if I came across flippant.

One eyed Jack

theguzman wrote: »

Suicide and Death is a huge issue in Ireland and rarely discussed and there needs to be a debate around this.

Rarely discussed? There was a thread on this very topic only last week

There’s plenty of discussion happens around suicide and death, it’s a fairly morbid subject IMO but some people love to revel in misery, suicide and death.

xzanti

I would absolutely be in favor of it.

As said already though, it would have to be heavily regulated.

For people with no hope of any quality of life or facing certain death. Not for mental illness as it is too much of a gray area. IMHO.

NIMAN

Deleted User wrote: »

Some people's "bad day" can last a few months and can be as much as debilitating as a terminal illness so it would be hard not to argue that people with chronic depression should be allowed to avail.

I realise bad day was an incorrect term. I meant people who have gone through a family breakdown, bereavement etc who will recover if given time.

I know it sounded like I was making light. I wasn't.

Sorry if I came across flippant.

Grand, I knew where you were coming from, but I also can't see it being available to people suffering from depression. No matter how bad it is, since most depressions can be improved with medication.

I would say it would only be open to people with terminal or very life-limiting illnesses where they are in a lot of pain. That's how it has been used in other countries, so I think we will be the same.

I think its the next big debate that Ireland needs to have.

seamus

Deleted User wrote: »

another part of me thinks that this will allow people who "have a bad day" to needlessly take their life.

This is a bit of a red herring if you think about it.

If someone is "having a bad day" and decides to take their own life, they don't need assisted suicide or euthanasia to be legalised. They don't even need suicide to be legalised.

By legalising it, you're not going to make it physically any easier for suicidal people to end their lives. In places where it is legal they don't sell "suicide kits" in pharmacies or anything like that.

There is a potential acceptance factor, in that it may remove some social barriers to suicide and some people will feel like it's OK if they do it.
But that can (and should) be balanced, by having open discussions about mental health, death, suffering, etc., aimed at making suicidal people feel like they have somewhere to go that won't result in judgements, unemployment, etc.

Statistics on assisted suicide from the Netherlands, show that practically all assisted deaths are carried out for people who have requested it because the are physically unable to do it themselves.

So the argument that legalising it will lead to more suicides by hopelessly depressed people, doesn't really hold water.

uck51js9zml2yt

I suppose that when we believe we've come from no where by sheer chance and are going no where when we die and have no one to answer to for our lives and no one outside of us who holds our lives in their hands then killing ourselves isn't an issue.

LoughNeagh2017

Around 150 people kill themselves each year in Ulster, 5 times more men than women, people think that it's just because men don't talk about their problems, this is nonsense, it is because of the poverty and how women are generally treated better in the 21st century. Suicide is also linked to the decline in Christianity, my mother says that in the 70s and 80s you rarely heard of suicides now they are happening all the time. Even the front page of the Derry Post newspaper is of a missing woman who most likely killed herself last week.

LoughNeagh2017

theguzman wrote: »

I guess there is similarities, on one hand you have an unborn baby having no right to life anymore and no autonomy whether it can continue to live or otherwise. Then you have the living people having no right to die when it might be what they really want. Obviously two very different issues but with similar ethical dilemmas for opponents or proponents of either issue.

Maybe women should have thought about that before they had sex without condom. I won't even think of feminists as I don't want to ruin my Saturday, they are so self obsessed.

LoughNeagh2017

Julissa Eager Lavender wrote: »

I suppose that when we believe we've come from no where by sheer chance and are going no where when we die and have no one to answer to for our lives and no one outside of us who holds our lives in their hands then killing ourselves isn't an issue.

I hope to return as a ghost so I can be the most sinister entity in recorded history.

LoughNeagh2017

Insert Brain Here wrote: »

Much greater stigma back then. We've become far too accepting of suicide.

Euthanasia should be allowed, but only for terminally ill people who are in great pain.

That is a complicated issue because it isn't right to start abusing the person after they have killed themselves so you have to be respectful. In the past they weren't allowed to be buried in church grounds.

The celebrities killing themselves also is a big problem because they kill themselves and are worshiped even more afterwards, I am thinking of Kurt Kobain and singer Chester Bennington more recently, they are viewed as a God in rock fan base.

marklazarcovic

Insert Brain Here wrote: »

Much greater stigma back then. We've become far too accepting of suicide.

Euthanasia should be allowed, but only for terminally ill people who are in great pain.

What if your pain is just as great if not greater but it's only terminal if the choice is your own?

banie01

I've a couple of chronic medical conditions that are life affecting but I've managed to control the impact of them on my day to day life and live a fairly normal mostly medical intervention free life until quite recently.

One of the complications is neuropathy, and I have an ongoing issue at the moment that is under investigation for this and it may be either a central neuropathy or some veinous issue leading to renal colic.

The pain is eye watering, it radiates from kidney to scrotum and is disabling and vomit inducing.
If it's veinous, hopefully surgery can correct it.

If it's central neuropathy, honestly given that I'm currently 6 months on opiods and neuropathic pain relief that only knocks the edge off...
I don't know how I'd cope, but cope I will.

Euthanasia isn't a choice I'd make in this instance despite the possibility of being likely to have severe pain issues for the remainder of my life, but I can certainly say this.

If I was alone, if I didn't have a circle of friends and family who are understanding and supportive.
Euthanasia is something I would most certainly consider if this continued and I didn't have the support I do now.

The psychological impact of continued long term "extreme" pain is brutal, it colours every interaction you have and limits you more than I had previously imagined.

I think some form of legislation for assisted dying is required.
There needs to be a robust and practical set of guidelines to ensure professional support.
The patient must be paramount, the fact that medical science and intervention can prolong life is a brilliant vindication of the effort expended on medical research and training.

It must be balanced IMO with a view on quality of life for the patient, and what the patient wants.
A life lived in pain or with mobility or communication limitations?
May not be the life the patient wishes to continue.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

This is such a close-to-the-bone topic for me. I desperately wish this was an option in Ireland.

I saw an incredibly thoughtful below-the-line comment recently on the topic that sums it up for me. It was in reference to the case of Lynn Gilderdale and her mother Kay, who assisted her in dying. Charges were brought against Kay but she was acquitted. There seems to be little appetite to prosecute people for this, in the UK at least.

mynamejeff

apparently its the next big political issue ,

ive personally been in extreme pain to the extent that ive thought about death as a positive via a bone marrow issue but i was lucky enough to recover from

if that wasn't an option i would most certainly wish to be allowed to end it on my own terms

as for people with chronic mental health issues im not sure it should be much different

their illness , little or no prospect of recovery

let them make a choice

seems fair

Hotblack Desiato

Deleted User wrote: »

On one hand, I absolutely agree with a person being able to choose how they die, but another part of me thinks that this will allow people who "have a bad day" to needlessly take their life.

I have had suicidal thoughts in the past and would have definitely availed of the service if it was available. I am very glad it wasn't.

It's like the abortion issue to me. I have contradictory feelings about how I feel about it (if that makes sense)

And it's just like the abortion debate, when we got claims about "abortion on a whim".

We need to trust people to make decisions about their own lives, under appropriate medical supervision.

xzanti wrote: »

For people with no hope of any quality of life or facing certain death. Not for mental illness as it is too much of a gray area. IMHO.

Remember how we heard for years that suicidality (as opposed to life threatening physical illness) shouldn't be a grounds for getting an abortion, and they had referendums in 1992 and 2002 to stop it - we rejected both.

I'm also reminded of Ronan Mullen's comments on TV last year that mental illness wasn't real illness.

It's not something that we should rule out entirely, simply because it's not a "physical" illness.

Hotblack Desiato

Julissa Eager Lavender wrote: »

I suppose that when we believe we've come from no where by sheer chance and are going no where when we die and have no one to answer to for our lives and no one outside of us who holds our lives in their hands then killing ourselves isn't an issue.

What a completely crass comment.

Suicide touches the life of every person who knew the deceased (even some who barely did, or didn't - geographic clusters are a thing.) The suicidal person often seems to convince themselves everyone else is better off without them, unfortunately.

This has got nothing at all to do with religious belief or disbelief.

It would be just as stupid to say "well, you christians think heaven is great and that this world is nothing but a pile of suffering, so why not speed things along?"

LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »

Around 150 people kill themselves each year in Ulster, 5 times more men than women, people think that it's just because men don't talk about their problems, this is nonsense, it is because of the poverty and how women are generally treated better in the 21st century. Suicide is also linked to the decline in Christianity, my mother says that in the 70s and 80s you rarely heard of suicides now they are happening all the time. Even the front page of the Derry Post newspaper is of a missing woman who most likely killed herself last week.

Such nonsense.

Single mothers frequently suffer poverty. Either a life stuck on benefits, or trying to juggle housing, job and childcare. Meanwhile the father can feck off and have no financial or other responsibility towards his child whatsoever.

"Women generally treated better in the 20th century" - LOL

There was plenty of suicide in the past, it was just hidden because it was regarded as taboo and sinful, and to some extent still is (how many of those 3AM single occupant car went into a wall incidents are actually suicides?)

Hotblack Desiato

Interesting long read here (paywall, but incognito mode should work) about a disabled athlete who took the decision to end her life, 11 years after first getting the legal papers:

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/marieke-vervoort-the-paralympic-champion-who-chose-her-time-to-die-1.4115956

A very brave woman in how she lived and how she died too,

Kidchameleon

People should have the right to end their life painlessly. I think they should pay themselves however unless they genuinely cant

Hotblack Desiato

How judgemental of you.

Heard the same crap during the repeal referendum. "Dem b*tches should pay for it if they want an abortion", not in so many words, but that sentiment was frequently expressed.

Are you going to demand that smokers pay for their lung cancer surgery too? Fat people for their type 2 diabetes treatment? And anybody with an STD sure that's their own fault. :rolleyes:

Loafing Oaf

Can we clarify the terminology here?

My understanding is that 'euthanasia' refers to when medical staff decide to switch you off, whereas with assisted suicide/dying, you make the decision yourself.

osarusan

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Can we clarify the terminology here?

My understanding is that 'euthanasia' refers to when medical staff decide to switch you off, whereas with assisted suicide/dying, you make the decision yourself.

No, euthanasia is also a decision you make yourself. The difference will be that a doctor is directly involved in the delivery of the euthanising drugs, whereas with assisted suicide, they 'set up' the drug delivery system, but the person must administer the drugs to themselves, making it a suicide.

Switching off life support already happens here, and will be done by medical staff, but with consent of family members.

Discodog

I will end my life when it's no longer enjoyable & when I can't do the things that give me pleasure.

I love life, never get depressed but when the time comes, it will be of my choosing.

This should be a fundamental human right.

seamus

Kidchameleon wrote: »

People should have the right to end their life painlessly. I think they should pay themselves however unless they genuinely cant

Jesus Christ.

"People should only be allowed to end their suffering if they can afford to pay for it."

There's something wrong with you if you have such a complete absence of empathy. Mother Teresa would be proud of you. She also believed that poor people should suffer as much as possible.

Loafing Oaf

osarusan wrote: »

No, euthanasia is also a decision you make yourself. The difference will be that a doctor is directly involved in the delivery of the euthanising drugs, whereas with assisted suicide, they 'set up' the drug delivery system, but the person must administer the drugs to themselves, making it a suicide.

Oh right, well I suppose that means they're much the same thing, legally and ethically. Anyone who supports the right to one would almost certainly be in favour of the other too.

osarusan

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Oh right, well I suppose that means they're much the same thing, legally and ethically. Anyone who supports the right to one would almost certainly be in favour of the other too.

Pretty similar, although people with total paralysis from the neck down can struggle to administer the drugs themselves.


I think some kind of rig has been developed which they can control with their eye movement or head movement, but I might be wrong on that.

I don't know if you have heard of Dignitas, which is a Swiss assisted-suicide organisation, but there are videos on youtube you can watch - the whole thing is recorded, with the person stating that they are of sound mind and that they want to die, and then them taking the drugs, and drifting into sleep and then death. The death needs to be reported to the police, and the video helps with the investigation.

Very moving videos actually.

seamus

osarusan wrote: »

No, euthanasia is also a decision you make yourself. The difference will be that a doctor is directly involved in the delivery of the euthanising drugs, whereas with assisted suicide, they 'set up' the drug delivery system, but the person must administer the drugs to themselves, making it a suicide.

Switching off life support already happens here, and will be done by medical staff, but with consent of family members.

Just to clarify that euthansia may not expressly be a decision made by the individual, but could be made by someone with the authority to act as you, when you are indefinitely incapable of providing consent.

In practice this would rarely be a single individual, but an empowered individual along with the assent of qualified individuals. That is, the consent of a next-of-kin, so long as the doctors concur with the request, and potential a legal professional too.

Fearmongers catastrophise this as "death panels" choosing to kill old people when there are no beds, but such things don't exist.

Loafing Oaf

seamus wrote: »

Just to clarify that euthansia may not expressly be a decision made by the individual, but could be made by someone with the authority to act as you, when you are indefinitely incapable of providing consent.

In practice this would rarely be a single individual, but an empowered individual along with the assent of qualified individuals. That is, the consent of a next-of-kin, so long as the doctors concur with the request, and potential a legal professional too.

I vaguely thought this; you'd hear talk of 'euthanising' a sick pet. I assume this is currently happening when people are in a coma and the like. Are people generally satisfied with the current arrangements for this form of euthanasia, or is there a desire to have the grounds for it broadened, alongside the legalisation of the form where the individual concerned directly asks as doctor to be 'put to sleep'?

seamus

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I vaguely thought this; you'd hear talk of 'euthanising' a sick pet. I assume this is currently happening when people are in a coma and the like. Are people generally satisfied with the current arrangements for this form of euthanasia, or is there a desire to have the grounds for it broadened, alongside the legalisation of the form where the individual concerned directly asks as doctor to be 'put to sleep'?

From what I can gather, there is little to no public resistance to legalising assisted suicide.

If it is legal for people to facilitate it that the patient can push the button and end it for themselves, then my impression is that the vast, vast majority of people have no problem with this. Provided that such measures are only in place for terminally ill patients.

At present if someone is physically incapable of ending their own life, it is a crime for another to help them in any way, even if the person ultimately is the one who pushes the button.
This extends to helping the patient to leave the country so they can go where it's legal. Which is an insane law. Strictly speaking if you know someone is planning on committing suicide, it may be a crime for you to do nothing about it. We're really screwed up on this whole thing.

Euthanasia is another step again, and I think people are less comfortable with this, because it is undeniably fraught.

"Passive" euthanasia (i.e. pulling the plug) is legal because strictly speaking you're not taking a deliberate action to end someone's life. Their body shuts down because it's incapable of sustaining itself. You're withdrawing artificial sustenance rather than introducing anything new to the body which causes it to die.

Active euthanasia on the other hand is where you get into all the grey areas, and where everyone struggles to say yea or nay; If someone is in a coma but their body is functioning normally with the exception that they have to be tube fed; If someone has dementia or another degenerative brain disease which has progressed to the point where they're completely non-communicative and can't even control their bowels. And so on.

This gets difficult because the general rule for consent is that it must be ongoing. Someone can express their desire to be euthanised if they're ever in a coma. But once they're in a coma, you have no way to verify that consent. Same for dementia.

So logically we would say that this competency should move to the next-of-kin, who can decide what they think you would want if you were able to communicate.

But then you have the edge cases;

- People who's NOK is a distant relative who doesn't know them at all
- People who's NOK would happily euthanise them to get their inheritance faster
- People with no NOK whose fate would have to be decided by a court-appointed guardian

These are all valid concerns, but they can be accounted for to minimise abuses and errors. But a perfect system can't be guaranteed.

osarusan

seamus wrote: »

This gets difficult because the general rule for consent is that it must be ongoing. Someone can express their desire to be euthanised if they're ever in a coma. But once they're in a coma, you have no way to verify that consent. Same for dementia.

Advance healthcare directives, or 'living wills' have legal status in some countries, and allow people to lay out their wishes in the event of future debilitating conditions.

Kidchameleon

seamus wrote: »

"People should only be allowed to end their suffering if they can afford to pay for it."
.

Thats not what I said

Kidchameleon

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

"Dem b*tches should pay for it if they want an abortion", not in so many words, but that sentiment was frequently expressed.
:

If you cant afford the cost of an abortion you shouldnt be having sex. Babies are much more expensive

Hotblack Desiato

Kidchameleon wrote: »

If you cant afford the cost of an abortion you shouldnt be having sex. Babies are much more expensive

You stay classy lad.

Hotblack Desiato

osarusan wrote: »

Advance healthcare directives, or 'living wills' have legal status in some countries, and allow people to lay out their wishes in the event of future debilitating conditions.

Could a "catholic ethos" healthcare institution be trusted to carry out these wishes?

I wouldn't trust them, that's for sure.

I'm 100% in favour of euthanasia.

Hotblack Desiato

Discodog wrote: »

I will end my life when it's no longer enjoyable & when I can't do the things that give me pleasure.

Yes but what if you're too physically infirm or mentally demented to be able to carry it out yourself?

Also as others have pointed out, the violent methods are the most effective but are really only open to able-bodied people. In any case I'd never want to traumatise a train driver or require a team of ten people to pick up my splattered bits. It's not fair on them. But when I fail cogntive tests I want someone to administer me something to make me slip away, I don't want to replicate the family illness. Physically strong but brain dead.

osarusan wrote: »

I don't know if you have heard of Dignitas, which is a Swiss assisted-suicide organisation, but there are videos on youtube you can watch - the whole thing is recorded, with the person stating that they are of sound mind

Well my problem is that I want to die when I'm no longer of sound mind. Somewhat more tricky but not insoluble.

Hotblack Desiato

Kidchameleon wrote: »

If you cant afford the cost of an abortion you shouldnt be having sex. Babies are much more expensive

So are you going to demand that smokers pay for their lung cancer surgery, or fat people pay for their type 2 diabetes treatment?

Or is it just women you have a problem with?

Kidchameleon

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

So are you going to demand that smokers pay for their lung cancer surgery, or fat people pay for their type 2 diabetes treatment?

Or is it just women you have a problem with?

Its off topic but yes of course, people should pay for their choices.

Wanderer78

Kidchameleon wrote:

Its off topic but yes of course, people should pay for their choices.

So addiction is a choice?

seamus

osarusan wrote: »

Advance healthcare directives, or 'living wills' have legal status in some countries, and allow people to lay out their wishes in the event of future debilitating conditions.

Absolutely, but again can be fraught. Someone has a living will, but the next of kin says, "actually just last week she begged me not to euthanise her if she falls unconscious".
So do we go with the living will, or with the next of kin?

But ultimately this is not a reason to not legalise euthanasia, they're reasons to have a safety net and an arbitration process. 99% of the time a living will be perfectly adequate. In the 1% of cases, a court can rule on what is the most appropriate course of action in the best interests of the patient and based on their most likely known wishes.

Kidchameleon

Wanderer78 wrote: »

So addiction is a choice?

Did you seriously ask that?

Wanderer78

Kidchameleon wrote:

Did you seriously ask that?

No

titan18

I'd support it. I think if someone is in enough pain, physical, emotional or mental and want to end it, they should have that choice and for it be done in a safe and legal manner.

Kidchameleon

Wanderer78 wrote: »

No

Forgive me, a question like that would be par for the course here

Wanderer78

Kidchameleon wrote:

Forgive me, a question like that would be par for the course here

Addiction is far from straightforward, the rules of logic do not exist in its world