Change to Solar PV Grants

quentingargan

More per kw for smaller systems up to 2kw, and a hugely reduced subsidy for panels above 2kw makes sense - adding another kw to a system isn't as expensive as the first 2kw.

Bringing the battery subsidy down to €600 will have people wondering whether to hope for a decent export price in 2021?

You have until 19th Dec., to apply under the old scheme and until end of January to complete the installation:

Building on approximately 16 months of successful operation, SEAI is implementing changes to the domestic solar PV scheme. This has been informed by a review of systems and costs supported so far and the objectives of the scheme. These changes are part of the continued evolution of the solar PV scheme, ahead of a transition to the future enduring support scheme for microgeneration.

The scheme changes are as follows:
- Support for the 0-2kWp of solar installed will increase to €900 per kWp
- Support for the 2-4kWp of solar installed will decrease to €300 per kWp
- Support for battery installation will decrease to €600
- The scheme will transition from a rebate post works approach to a more traditional pre-works application / grant offer model
- To be eligible the home energy performance post-works must be BER C or better.

Homeowners can continue to apply under the existing (2019) grant amounts and terms and conditions until 5pm on 19th December 2019. The works must be completed, and all documentation submitted by 31st January 2020.

The next phase of the scheme will open for applications on 7th January 2020 when the application process will change to a more traditional pre-works grant application / offer based approach in line with the other SEAI home energy grants.

JJJackal

Is this good or bad?

quentingargan

JJJackal wrote: »

Is this good or bad?

€400 more for a 2kw system with no battery and €800 less for a 4kw system with battery. So makes smaller systems more affordable which rightly favours people with less money for this sort of project. Hardware prices have fallen, so there is some justification, but labour prices have increased.

The grants were always subject to review, and won't be there forever. If there is to be a transition, it is better that it be phased in.

My worry is that there will be a stampede of applications getting rushed through between now and end of January.

JJJackal

quentingargan wrote: »

€400 more for a 2kw system with no battery and €800 less for a 4kw system with battery. So makes smaller systems more affordable which rightly favours people with less money for this sort of project. Hardware prices have fallen, so there is some justification, but labour prices have increased.

The grants were always subject to review, and won't be there forever. If there is to be a transition, it is better that it be phased in.

My worry is that there will be a stampede of applications getting rushed through between now and end of January.

I note you work in solar.

Whats the average size system installed? Do most go for the battery?

thos

quentingargan wrote: »

ahead of a transition to the future enduring support scheme for microgeneration.

Anyone know what this 'future scheme' is?

Scolly

Is there a link or some information for dummies, would like to get a PV system that would reduce electricity costs to a minimum and have a battery store.
Is it also possible for these to provide hot water?
I am running a 4 zone oil central heating system on a condensing boiler with a small wood burning stove for room heat only.

JJJackal

Scolly wrote: »

Is there a link or some information for dummies, would like to get a PV system that would reduce electricity costs to a minimum and have a battery store.
Is it also possible for these to provide hot water?
I am running a 4 zone oil central heating system on a condensing boiler with a small wood burning stove for room heat only.

PV will only save you about 300 a year I think at most

quentingargan

JJJackal wrote: »

Whats the average size system installed? Do most go for the battery?

Depends on the size of the house mostly. Under the previous scheme, if you were putting in a battery, it was a no-brainer to max out your PV array to 4kw

wexfordman2

JJJackal wrote: »

PV will only save you about 300 a year I think at most

So, how do you come to that very generalised conclusion ?

JJJackal

wexfordman2 wrote: »

So, how do you come to that very generalised conclusion ?

There are some cost estimators on some of the electricity supplier websites, but in Ireland they suggest its about 200 to 300 per year saving - obviously this depends on a huge variety of factors. I also presume its based on a standard setup

unkel

To give some rough idea, a large (4kwp) system, south facing in a reasonably good area of Ireland, produces about 4,000kWh per year. It depends very much how much of this you use yourself for what, to determine how much this is worth.

At worst, you use only about a fifth of it. So you use 800kWh, which is worth €0.17 per kWh, so worth €136 in total per year
At best, (theoretically) you save 4,000kWh * €0.17 = €640 per year

€200-€300 saving per year is pretty much ballpark in practice. This will increase if we get a feed in tariff, which seems likely in the next year or two

wexfordman2

JJJackal wrote: »

There are some cost estimators on some of the electricity supplier websites, but in Ireland they suggest its about 200 to 300 per year saving - obviously this depends on a huge variety of factors. I also presume its based on a standard setup

Any chance you could link to some.ofnthe articles that refer to a saving if 200 to 300 per year, I am sure a lot of us would be very keen to see it, the figure seems very low, and would turn my system into a money pit requiring nearly 30 years payback. So would appreciate some references please.

JJJackal

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Any chance you could link to some.ofnthe articles that refer to a saving if 200 to 300 per year, I am sure a lot of us would be very keen to see it, the figure seems very low, and would turn my system into a money pit requiring nearly 30 years payback. So would appreciate some references please.

https://www.seai.ie/tools/solar-electricity-calculator/

Again depends on size, battery, location in Ireland...

JJJackal

Calculators only take current electricity price into account, I would imagine electricity will double in price over 10 years...

Of course we could get a new way to generate and it will fall

Alkers

To be eligible the home energy performance post-works must be BER C or better

What is the point in this? If you have a big old house and use a lot of electricity, for some reason you're not eligible for a grant any more?

unkel

JJJackal wrote: »

https://www.seai.ie/tools/solar-electricity-calculator/

Again depends on size, battery, location in Ireland...

Seems a very optimistic figure of €470 savings on a 4kwp system in Dublin, south facing with someone always at home with a unit price of €0.17 (their most optimistic scenario)

I bet it does not take into account that if you run a washing machine on solar during the day, your saving is actually not €0.17c per kWh but just €0.08c per kWh as you could run your washing machine at night at the night saver rate

I'm all for renewables in general and micro generation in particular, but let's not kid ourselves with the savings figures

It does help the environment if you use your PV to the max. When the sun is out, run an appliance and stack them. So first run your dishwasher, then run the washing machine, then cut the grass with an electric mower, than hoover the house, etc.

Alkers

Is the restriction for a battery being needed to avail of further grants above 2kWp being kept?

JJJackal

Alkers wrote: »

To be eligible the home energy performance post-works must be BER C or better

What is the point in this? If you have a big old house and use a lot of electricity, for some reason you're not eligible for a grant any more?

It makes more sense to do other things like insulate first I suspect. The PV solar is for a house that is already insulated, proper windows... There are grants for these

thos

This is the other email going to applicants in progress

Dear X,

You have an existing application to the SEAI domestic solar PV scheme. Today SEAI announced a number of changes to the scheme.

What does this mean for me?
If you have your works completed, with all supporting documentation submitted before 31st January 2020, the changes will not impact on you at all. You will get your solar PV rebate at the amount previously agreed.

If you will not have your works completed and documentation submitted before 31st January 2020, you can still get support for your solar PV system. From January 7th, you will need to re-apply for grant approval before you commence any works. SEAI will issue you with a grant letter of offer valid for 8 months. The following changes will apply in the next phase of the scheme:
- Support for the 0-2kWp of solar installed will increase to €900 per kWp
- Support for the 2-4kWp of solar installed will decrease to €300 per kWp
- Support for battery installation will decrease to €600

To be eligible for the new grant support, the home energy performance post-works must be BER C or better.

What do I do next?
You should contact your contractor and agree what timing is possible for your solar PV installation.

unkel

Alkers wrote: »

Is the restriction for a battery being needed to avail of further grants above 2kWp being kept?

I was wondering that myself. I presume it is kept, otherwise it would have specifically stated otherwise.

quentingargan

Alkers wrote: »

To be eligible the home energy performance post-works must be BER C or better

What is the point in this? If you have a big old house and use a lot of electricity, for some reason you're not eligible for a grant any more?

The thinking is that you can do more for the environment by insulating your house and should go for the low-hanging fruit first.

But methods of reducing CO2 are not mutually exclusive and fittting PV on an old house will reduce emissions the exact same as fitting them on a newe one. Some old properties are going to cost a fortune to drag up to a C rating, yet they may have a shed on which panels can be very economically fitted. So the logic is flawed IMHO.

wexfordman2

JJJackal wrote: »

https://www.seai.ie/tools/solar-electricity-calculator/

Again depends on size, battery, location in Ireland...

Exactly, it depends on system size, location battery etc, so throwing out an arbitrary 200 or 300 euro figure is simply misleading.

As regards the seai calculator, it also takes no account of battery, storage, hot water diversion, both from a savings perspective and a cost/install perspective.

I have about 3 months left before I reach my first 12 months live with my system, but I can guarantee I am saving multiples of the typical figure you quoted in your original post.

So far, my system has generated 4.5mwh and I exported 1mwh, giving me a saving of 612 euro (17.5c per kwh).

Alkers

SEAI have added a lot more information here:
https://www.seai.ie/news-and-media/changes-to-domestic-solar/

Alkers

I've confirmed via the SEAI webchat, that the requirement for a battery remains in order to obtain any further grants after the initial 2 kWp.

However, this statement doesn't make sense to me:
This means the subsidy for the solar panel components remains unchanged for consumers producing up to 3 kWp which is beyond the capacity of the average Irish home, decreasing only after that point. So, for example, someone installing a typical 2kWp system will receive a €1,800 grant. While someone installing a larger 4kWp system with a battery will receive a €3,000 grant. An appropriately sized system will typically pay back the cost, net of grant, in around ten years

If they mean a 3 kW array with no battery, I calculate that the grant has changed from €1,400 to €1,800. If they mean a 3 kW array with battery, I calculate that the grant has changed from €3,100 to €2,700.

The "pivot point" for me is a 2 kW system, anything larger than that is penalised under the new grants Vs the old, which is at odds with their statement that the capacity for an average Irish home should be 2.8 kWp

JJJackal

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Exactly, it depends on system size, location battery etc, so throwing out an arbitrary 200 or 300 euro figure is simply misleading.

As regards the seai calculator, it also takes no account of battery, storage, hot water diversion, both from a savings perspective and a cost/install perspective.

I have about 3 months left before I reach my first 12 months live with my system, but I can guarantee I am saving multiples of the typical figure you quoted in your original post.

So far, my system has generated 4.5mwh and I exported 1mwh, giving me a saving of 612 euro (17.5c per kwh).

What size system do you have? Are you in Wexford?

KCross

wexfordman2 wrote: »

So far, my system has generated 4.5mwh and I exported 1mwh, giving me a saving of 612 euro (17.5c per kwh).

Isnt that calculation a bit simplistic though?

Some of the Solar energy that you used isnt saving you 17.5c. Its saving you the difference between night rate and day rate so more like 8c.

Energy diverted to heat hot water will save even less if you have gas. You cant just say 100% of it is saving you 17.5c.

JJJackal

KCross wrote: »

Isnt that calculation a bit simplistic though?

Some of the Solar energy that you used isnt saving you 17.5c. Its saving you the difference between night rate and day rate so more like 8c.

Energy diverted to heat hot water will save even less if you have gas. You cant just say 100% of it is saving you 17.5c.

I would also say your electricity bill must be close to 0 in terms of units of electricity used.

60 euro per month is a big saving to make from solar PV. I suspect your calculation may be a bit generous too

loyatemu

getting an old house to a C rating is a big job, no? I think our house (1970s semi) is rated E, which is possible being generous.
Putting up PV is something I might think about doing, but external insulation is beyond my budget for the forseeable future. Under the new rules, I can forget about PV as well. I don't use electricity to heat the house, so I don't see what difference the BER rating makes TBH.

wexfordman2

KCross wrote: »

Isnt that calculation a bit simplistic though?

Some of the Solar energy that you used isnt saving you 17.5c. Its saving you the difference between night rate and day rate so more like 8c.

Energy diverted to heat hot water will save even less if you have gas. You cant just say 100% of it is saving you 17.5c.

I get what you are saying, but arguing that it's not a full saving unless you base it on right rate instead of day rate is also a but simplistic. Its it easy ir practical to migrate usage to night rate, how many washing loads can you do, how many drier loads. We have had eight rate for 20 years, and from a practical standpoint never gained much more than a few kwh by putting the dishwasher on before we went to bed.

There is no definitive figure, but the only thing I can tell you is
A) my generation and usage figures reflect very significant savings.
my night rate usage has increased during winter months as my battery takes up night time charging for release during the day.
C) my oil tank usage during the summer went to near 0, compared to using it every day for hot water.

The figures are what they are, and real life. There is no practical way that I could have moved a significant amount of usage to night rate.

wexfordman2

JJJackal wrote: »

What size system do you have? Are you in Wexford?

5.85kwh, south facing, co cork.

JJJackal

wexfordman2 wrote: »

5.85kwh, south facing, co cork.

You have a big setup and in a good part of the country for sun.

If you input your figures into the seai calculator it says you save 715 a year; however your setup is massive!

Think the 200 to 300 saving is for an average size setup

KCross

wexfordman2 wrote: »

I get what you are saying, but arguing that it's not a full saving unless you base it on right rate instead of day rate is also a but simplistic.

Thats true also. I did say "some". Obviously you are saving on your bills. Its just not the €612 you quoted. How much less it is is going to be different for everyone.

I'm just trying to temper peoples expectations here because we see it quite a bit where people say "oh, a 5kWp system will generate 5MWh therefore I can do the multiplier and subtract that from my bills"

It just doesnt work like that in reality.

And gas for hot water is relatively cheaper again so alot of people would assume that a diverter is worth the money when its not.

TL;DR... its not a simple X kWh x 17.5c = €savings.

unkel

wexfordman2 wrote: »

my night rate usage has increased during winter months as my battery takes up night time charging for release during the day.

Did you just assume that saves you money or did you do a calculation on it? It's been shown here before that the savings from doing that are marginal at best (with a competitively priced PV install with lithium battery claiming the €1,000 battery subsidy)

wexfordman2 wrote: »

C) my oil tank usage during the summer went to near 0, compared to using it every day for hot water.

With a system as large as yours and with no feed in tariff, it makes sense to pay the extra €500 for an immersion diverter. The savings are just 5c/kWh diverted though (the cost of heating water with an efficient gas or oil boiler) and if you expect a feed in tariff of even as low as 5c/kWh within the next few years, then the €500 investment will be loss making (with smaller systems, say smaller than about 2.5kwp, an immersion system is always going to lose you money)

Of course, using zero emissions to heat your water is better than using fossil fuels, and it is likely that electricity and fossil fuels will become a lot more expensive in future, but I'm with Kcross here that we need to present real savings, not just production figure * max day rate = savings

Alkers

We are at a dilemma whether to go for a 3.75kWp system with 2.4kWh battery (10 panels - most we can fit) for 4,925 net ASAP, which our installer is reasonably confident he can meet the deadlines for the current grants OR waiting until the new year and going for a plain 2kWp system which I reckon we might be able to get for just over 3k. That would leave us an option to add a panel or two down the line once(when) fit is announced.

unkel

Go for the battery system. At under five grand it's a bargain and you will take full advantage of the grant of almost €3,800

And whatever you do, don't install 2kwp now with the option of installing more panels later. It costs very little extra labour to add them now. If you do it down the line, you'll pay the full whack again in labour again to send the fellas onto your roof (but this time without any subsidy)

Alkers

unkel wrote: »

Go for the battery system. At under five grand it's a bargain and you will take full advantage of the grant of almost €3,800

And whatever you do, don't install 2kwp now with the option of installing more panels later. It costs very little extra labour to add them now. If you do it down the line, you'll pay the full whack again in labour again to send the fellas onto your roof (but this time without any subsidy)

That was my thought initially but it looks like a 2kW system could possibly be had for 2.5k after grant which would be easy to stomach!

Waternotsoda

I been reading up on solar. What it comes down to for me is that in 2018 i used a total of 2154 KW of energy for 715 euros. Is it mad for me to even consider this scheme?

I already have two solar panels that heat water directly. Great on fine summers day but I get nothing from them during the winter. I live on my own in a 4 bedroom house in the west of Ireland.

garo

Alkers wrote: »

That was my thought initially but it looks like a 2kW system could possibly be had for 2.5k after grant which would be easy to stomach!

Go for the 3.75kW system. Having a battery no matter how small is a win. And getting 1.75kWp plus a 2.4kW battery for < 2500 is not bad.

garo

Waternotsoda wrote: »

I been reading up on solar. What it comes down to for me is that in 2018 i used a total of 2154 KW of energy for 715 euros. Is it mad for me to even consider this scheme?

I already have two solar panels that heat water directly. Great on fine summers day but I get nothing from them during the winter. I live on my own in a 4 bedroom house in the west of Ireland.

You have relatively low usage so the new grant might suit you better. A 2kW system with 1800 rebate will likely work well. You would get your money back in < 10 years assuming you get the system installed for 2500 net as quoted above.

headtheball14

loyatemu wrote: »

getting an old house to a C rating is a big job, no? I think our house (1970s semi) is rated E, which is possible being generous.
Putting up PV is something I might think about doing, but external insulation is beyond my budget for the forseeable future. Under the new rules, I can forget about PV as well. I don't use electricity to heat the house, so I don't see what difference the BER rating makes TBH.

In same position. I have e rated house I've put in attic insulation and an air air heat pump without grants. Was hoping to do solar pv this year but I won't make c ber without very expensive upgrades and removing fireplace storage heating and externally insulating. I'm not In a position to make at the moment nor do I want to.
My new heating is working well but these are backups for me.
Unless you are able to do everything this incentivises no action.

That's good news.

Smaller systems have better ROI because proportionately more of a smaller system goes direct to load.
Removing battery incentives will put their viability into question...as it ought to be.

Capping the grant at 2kW without loss introduction devices self-consumption devices is a shame. I'd be much happier with 4kW and no battery, as would the penguins.

stadtlerwa

I've been told that the deadline for the change to the grant was extended to Feb from Jan 31 but I can't see anything on the SEAI site.
Can anybody confirm ?

handpref

stadtlerwa wrote: »

I've been told that the deadline for the change to the grant was extended to Feb from Jan 31 but I can't see anything on the SEAI site.
Can anybody confirm ?

I hope not, I’ve been waiting nigh on 16 months now and was hoping that this deadline would force them to do what they should do ....