How tough is your index 1?

blue note

I find the index 1 in my club (corballis) very difficult. I've played in 9 comps there and haven't had a par on it yet. But then I looked on how did I do at the last 5 Sunday comps to get an idea of how others are doing on it. In the last 462 returned scores, there have been 24 pars (no birdies obviously). And on 4 of those 5 days the average score was a double bogey. So the average golfer will have a 5% chance of making a par on that hole judging by recent scores.

But it's a rock hard hole. I'd be above average for distance for my age and handicap and if there's any wind into me even from the forward tees it's pretty much a par 5, because I'll be landing on a tiny part of the fairway if I hit driver. If I'm left overnight I'm in thick links grass and potentially dead. And if I hit an iron off the tee I'm probably left with a wood into the green where I could be dead if I'm long, right or left with it. Short and straight should be okay. Even laying up with my second, it's a tricky green to play into, which makes the bogey a tough score.

Even comparing to the par 5 on the course my average score is .4 lower on the par 5. It's just an easier hole!

How tough are your own index 1s? If you take a quick look on hdid what sort of percentage come away with a par or a birdie on it?

RoadRunner

blue note wrote: »

I find the index 1 in my club (corballis) very difficult

It's a cracking hole. I birdied it early this year :pac:

A solid drive at the steeple in the distance is the key, but by the 3rd hole you still haven't even taken the driver out of the bag since last week :eek:

blue note

RoadRunner wrote: »

It's a cracking hole. I birdied it early this year :pac:

A solid drive at the steeple in the distance is the key, but by the 3rd hole you still haven't even taken the driver out of the bag since last week :eek:

A birdie! Wow! The last 462 that tried that (on a sunday) have failed!

You need to carry about 220m from the white tees for that line with no wind. From the blues you can add on 15-20 metres. With a light breeze into you it could be another 10. Very very very few have that sort of distance! Especially since you'll need to be accurate too.

WacoKid

blue note wrote: »

A birdie! Wow! The last 462 that tried that (on a sunday) have failed!

You need to carry about 220m from the white tees for that line with no wind. From the blues you can add on 15-20 metres. With a light breeze into you it could be another 10. Very very very few have that sort of distance! Especially since you'll need to be accurate too.

Was a member for 5 years and birdied it once I think. Everyone else is going to score 5 at best so think of it like that. Its not about parring a hole, its about playing it in less shots than everyone else.

blue note

WacoKid wrote: »

Was a member for 5 years and birdied it once I think. Everyone else is going to score 5 at best so think of it like that. Its not about parring a hole, its about playing it in less shots than everyone else.

I played it as a par 5 for a while, but tended to end up with a 6/7. So now I play it as a par 4 and tend to come out with a 5/6. Course management is very important and not just about playing safe.

[Deleted User]

blue note wrote: »

I played it as a par 5 for a while, but tended to end up with a 6/7. So now I play it as a par 4 and tend to come out with a 5/6. Course management is very important and not just about playing safe.

Had my first ever eagle on that hole. Held a 4 iron playing with my Dad. Must have been 25 years ago. May have been slightly shorter than now but still a beast of a hole

slave1

I've parred all the holes in my club at least 4 times each in 2019 but did not par index 1 par 4 this year.
Can't get there in two and green on a slight slope and very fast, if you are putting from above the hole forget about it, putting from left or right is almost as difficult, rarely putting from below the hole within makeable distance as the ball just runs on

willabur

I love the 3rd hole. Must be pointed out that it is far more difficult to get a par on a sunday from the back tees than it is playing forward. I have parred it a few times in competition and the key thing is cutting the corner on the right hand side. Even if you land on the fairway and have a flat lie (which is really rare), the green is well protected especially if the pin is at the back.

the last time I parred it my playing partner said 'that's one up on the field'

blue note

willabur wrote: »

I love the 3rd hole. Must be pointed out that it is far more difficult to get a par on a sunday from the back tees than it is playing forward. I have parred it a few times in competition and the key thing is cutting the corner on the right hand side. Even if you land on the fairway and have a flat lie (which is really rare), the green is well protected especially if the pin is at the back.

the last time I parred it my playing partner said 'that's one up on the field'

Are Sundays always from the back? Just played one Sunday so far.

I've about 10 rounds from forward tees anyway though, so can't pretend that's the only reason I haven't parred it yet.

Forward tees and no wind makes it a lot easier, but still an extremly tough par 4.

gypsy79

I pared my index 1 for the first time in nearly 150 attempts in my last round. I play it as a par 5 and it is two good hybrids and an 8 iron in

RoadRunner

blue note wrote: »

A birdie! Wow! The last 462 that tried that (on a sunday) have failed!

You need to carry about 220m from the white tees for that line with no wind. From the blues you can add on 15-20 metres. With a light breeze into you it could be another 10. Very very very few have that sort of distance! Especially since you'll need to be accurate too.

I should add that it was a match, I was giving a shot, and there’s not the same level of fear in situations like that. Just all out attack

willabur

blue note wrote: »

Are Sundays always from the back? Just played one Sunday so far.

I've about 10 rounds from forward tees anyway though, so can't pretend that's the only reason I haven't parred it yet.

Forward tees and no wind makes it a lot easier, but still an extremely tough par 4.

I've just been a member since the start of the summer but each sunday I have been out it has been from the back. (Hole 7 is where it makes the biggest difference)

3rd is a tough drive and for me the second shot is harder again, if the wind is in your face then you don't have any chance unless you hit a worldie.

But..I still love it

GreeBo

If its a tough par 4 it should be a relatively easy par 5 though...if you play it as a par 5 and even then you will get up and down the odd time to get your 4.
On very hard holes I see too many people desperately going for the green in regulation and walking off with doubles and worse, whereas if they just played bogey golf theyd almost guarantee and bogey, still get the odd par and almost eliminate the big numbers.

Alas the old ego gets in the way of the scorecard too often

I did a quick look and our par 4 index 1 usually scores over 5.8...

willabur

True enough, I play it like a par 5 as best as I can but even then its not that easy. There is not a significant lay up target on the hole

as a part 5 it would index 6 or 7 in corballis - going on the last few rounds

blue note

GreeBo wrote: »

If its a tough par 4 it should be a relatively easy par 5 though...if you play it as a par 5 and even then you will get up and down the odd time to get your 4.
On very hard holes I see too many people desperately going for the green in regulation and walking off with doubles and worse, whereas if they just played bogey golf theyd almost guarantee and bogey, still get the odd par and almost eliminate the big numbers.

Alas the old ego gets in the way of the scorecard too often

I did a quick look and our par 4 index 1 usually scores over 5.8...

It's not an easy par 5. The approach for your 3rd is tough and if you're long or left or right you can be hacking out of thick rough for your 4th making a 6 the best you can hope for and a 7 very realistic. As I say, I used to play it as par 5 and it was the wrong strategy. I'm getting more 5s and 6s by taking out the driver and taking on the danger.

From the Monday and Wednesday opens (white tees most likely) this week 118 people played it. No birdies, 2 pars, 29 bogies. To be honest, I think a huge amount of the members don't reach the gap with driver so can't play it as a par 4 anyway. It's just an extremely difficult hole.

HDID seems to not include scratches in the average btw. Considering a lot of people would score with a 7, the average is probably a decent bit higher than the double bogey.

GreeBo

blue note wrote: »

It's not an easy par 5. The approach for your 3rd is tough and if you're long or left or right you can be hacking out of thick rough for your 4th making a 6 the best you can hope for and a 7 very realistic. As I say, I used to play it as par 5 and it was the wrong strategy. I'm getting more 5s and 6s by taking out the driver and taking on the danger.

What three clubs would you be using if playing it as a par 5?

Off the tips (according to google maps) it looks like
180M tee shot to the widest part of the fairway
150M layup parallel to the bunker
90M to middle of the green?


Maybe it was a typo, but "I'm getting more 5s and 6s by taking out the driver" wouldnt fill me with confidence on a par 4!

blue note

GreeBo wrote: »

What three clubs would you be using if playing it as a par 5?

5 iron, 8 iron, 3/4 gap wedge. There's loads of room for the first 2 shots, they're not a problem. But it's a narrow green to hit and if you don't hit it you're in trouble.

When I go with driver I'm probably leaving myself about a 6/7 iron in for the second 60% of the time and the outcome from that is similar to the 3/4 gap wedge, but I'm there a shot sooner. The others 40% of the time I'll either be hacking out onto the fairway and again leaving myself a similar 6/7 iron or playing my second drive which again is probably about 60% likely to be the 6/7 iron.

If I'm into a wind I won't hit driver. Landing area is too small.

blue note

GreeBo wrote: »

What three clubs would you be using if playing it as a par 5?

Off the tips (according to google maps) it looks like
180M tee shot to the widest part of the fairway
150M layup parallel to the bunker
90M to middle of the green?


Maybe it was a typo, but "I'm getting more 5s and 6s by taking out the driver" wouldnt fill me with confidence on a par 4!

Those distances are spot on. And 5/6 is better than 6/7. Easy choice for me.

GreeBo

blue note wrote: »

5 iron, 8 iron, 3/4 gap wedge. There's loads of room for the first 2 shots, they're not a problem. But it's a narrow green to hit and if you don't hit it you're in trouble.

When I go with driver I'm probably leaving myself about a 6/7 iron in for the second 60% of the time and the outcome from that is similar to the 3/4 gap wedge, but I'm there a shot sooner. The others 40% of the time I'll either be hacking out onto the fairway and again leaving myself a similar 6/7 iron or playing my second drive which again is probably about 60% likely to be the 6/7 iron.

If I'm into a wind I won't hit driver. Landing area is too small.

If your 6/7 is as accurate as your 3/4 gap wedge then that's probably the problem tbf!
Missing a green from under 100 yards should be a very infrequent occurrence and not one that I would base my course strategy on.

blue note

GreeBo wrote: »

If your 6/7 is as accurate as your 3/4 gap wedge then that's probably the problem tbf!
Missing a green from under 100 yards should be a very infrequent occurrence and not one that I would base my course strategy on.

I had a thread on where you drop the most shots. It was by far the 60 to 100m shots for me! Constantly hitting them fat, putting a tail on them, thinning the odd one. But I reckon they're important and shouldn't be all that hard so am not avoiding them and always dedicate a few balls to them on the range. It's one of the reasons I picked corballis - no better place to work on those shots. Depending on the tees, pins and wind I can have 4 3/4 shots from the tee. No strategy can avoid them.

charlieIRL

Which hole is index 1 in Corballis? All the times I’ve played it, I can’t remember!!

Index 1 in Tullamore is cruel tough. Need to fade a drive around large chestnut trees to hit the fairway and even if you do that, it’s still 160m uphill to the green. Narrow enough approach. I’ve only ever hit the green in 2 twice. Should be a par 5 instead of 4.

Benicetomonty

Index 1 in Lucan has changed after the 14th was reduced to a driveable par 4.
Current index 1 is the 10th hole, a tricky par 4 of around 430 yards. Havent checked the figures much but id be surprised if it really was statistically the index 1 tbh. It does play into the prevailing wind and theres a big spinney down the left that eats into a right to left dogleg but you shouldnt really be making worse than a 5 if youre thinking straight, and downwind it's very straightforward imo.

8th hole and 18th hole both more intimidating as far as Im concerned, the latter in particular. That last hole has ruined more of my rounds than I care to remember. Tough drive, tough 2nd (whether laying up or going for it), topped off by a viciously narrow, slopey green at the end of a 550 yard walk. Water left and a cavernous greenside bunker right add to a very intimidating approach no matter what youre going in with. A par 5 is always a great score

blue note

charlieIRL wrote: »

Which hole is index 1 in Corballis? All the times I’ve played it, I can’t remember!!

Index 1 in Tullamore is cruel tough. Need to fade a drive around large chestnut trees to hit the fairway and even if you do that, it’s still 160m uphill to the green. Narrow enough approach. I’ve only ever hit the green in 2 twice. Should be a par 5 instead of 4.

3rd hole - long par 4. Bit of a dogleg right you can cut with a big drive depending on wind and tees.

I'm very familiar with the 14th in tullamore. It's a beast of a hole. It's long so the drive has to be long and left or you won't have a line in. And then the green is hard to hold, very easy to run off. Tough green to get up and down on too. There aren't many courses in the country it wouldn't be index 1 on.

Rikand

16th hole Index 1 in athlone is a long par 4 with lough ree on the left and the Hudson bay road(oob) on the right. Fairway cambers from right to left too. Tree lined fairway both sides of the out of bounds and dog legs slightly left to the green. Playing it as a 2shotter makes the landing area for your tee shot very narrow.

2nd shot doesnt get any easier. Big copse of chestnut trees on the right side approaching the green and the lake is still all down the left hitting into a green with a decent tier in the middle. Hole is about 450 yards from the competition tees so a tough auld hole at the best of times. You're never unhappy walking off with a bogey

mjsc1970

Rikand wrote: »

16th hole Index 1 in athlone is a long par 4 with lough ree on the left and the Hudson bay road(oob) on the right. Fairway cambers from right to left too. Tree lined fairway both sides of the out of bounds and dog legs slightly left to the green. Playing it as a 2shotter makes the landing area for your tee shot very narrow.

2nd shot doesnt get any easier. Big copse of chestnut trees on the right side approaching the green and the lake is still all down the left hitting into a green with a decent tier in the middle. Hole is about 450 yards from the competition tees so a tough auld hole at the best of times. You're never unhappy walking off with a bogey

Great hole this. And very tough.
In my youth when I thought I was a half decent player, playing this course in reasonably high level competition. Paired with a low amateur at the time (now he is a domestic club Pro) when it came to navigating this hole I was left in the halfpenny place in comparison. Needs two perfect, long, shots. Perfect was not in my bag.

CalamariFritti

Index 1 in Tramore is a par 4 which plays long and has high grass and cabbage and trees and OOB down the right. Its not a particularly long long hole (370m) but most days you can easily add 10% due to playing into the prevailing wind. I seldom reach in two, but most days I won't even try. I just take my shot and play it as a par 5. If you do that and stay away from the right it isn't really a very difficult hole. I'd say its index 1 because most members cant reach. Low handicappers with good length will probably find other holes on the course harder.

blue note

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Index 1 in Tramore is a par 4 which plays long and has high grass and cabbage and trees and OOB down the right. Its not a particularly long long hole (370m) but most days you can easily add 10% due to playing into the prevailing wind. I seldom reach in two, but most days I won't even try. I just take my shot and play it as a par 5. If you do that and stay away from the right it isn't really a very difficult hole. I'd say its index 1 because most members cant reach. Low handicappers with good length will probably find other holes on the course harder.

Is that 14 you're talking about? Pretty sure it's a good bit longer than 370m. Might be 370m as the crow flies but you're blocked off by trees from doing that. It's slightly uphill and into the prevailing wind too as you say. The 14th in tullamore always reminded me of it actually, it was slightly longer and more uphill, but both are long and dog legs right. Tullamore was a harder version of our 14th though.

To be honest, I think it's the hardest on the course statistically (13th is actually the one to ruin a score). Also the only one of the 27 I never even managed a flukey birdie on. But it's not too bad an index 1 in my view.

youcancallmeal

9th in Stackstown is the index 1, a par 4. I've parred it maybe 2/3 times in the last year, usually from fortuitous approach or making long putts. Every shot is tricky. Driver needs to land left side of fairway and be at least 200 yards to have any chance of reaching in 2. Approach is blind up a steep hill so if you're hitting a hybrid or 4 iron good luck getting it to stop on the green. The green is the worst, huge slope back to front, if you're above the hole putting downhill there's a very good chance of a 3 putt. It's funny the index 2 hole i find fairly handy, have parred it a lot this year and even a couple of birdies, you just need to be a long hitter

CalamariFritti

blue note wrote: »

Is that 14 you're talking about? Pretty sure it's a good bit longer than 370m. Might be 370m as the crow flies but you're blocked off by trees from doing that. It's slightly uphill and into the prevailing wind too as you say. The 14th in tullamore always reminded me of it actually, it was slightly longer and more uphill, but both are long and dog legs right. Tullamore was a harder version of our 14th though.

To be honest, I think it's the hardest on the course statistically (13th is actually the one to ruin a score). Also the only one of the 27 I never even managed a flukey birdie on. But it's not too bad an index 1 in my view.

On the scorecard it says 370, looked it up before posting to make sure I dont say anything stupid. I agree it looks and feels longer plus the wind. Birdied it once.
13 feels like the harder hole to me. Had many pars and a few birdies on 13 but also a few big numbers. Whereas on 14 I hardly ever made a big number but par is really hard to come by. 13 becomes a relatively 'easy' hole when you get a good drive into position.

Funny with the distances. 7 is actually longer than 8 but it never seems that way. Fancy myself for par on 7 but 8 is a bit like 14, struggling to reach into any kind of wind. Saving grace with 8 is you can just take a wood out, not too much trouble on 8. You might end up in bunker but you won't lose a ball.

Edit: I can't even look up things properly. Says 393m online off the whites and 411m of the blues. Not sure what I was looking at. So into the wind that means it plays probably around 430m - 450m most days.

blue note

CalamariFritti wrote: »

On the scorecard it says 370, looked it up before posting to make sure I dont say anything stupid. I agree it looks and feels longer plus the wind. Birdied it once.
13 feels like the harder hole to me. Had many pars and a few birdies on 13 but also a few big numbers. Whereas on 14 I hardly ever made a big number but par is really hard to come by. 13 becomes a relatively 'easy' hole when you get a good drive into position.

Funny with the distances. 7 is actually longer than 8 but it never seems that way. Fancy myself for par on 7 but 8 is a bit like 14, struggling to reach into any kind of wind. Saving grace with 8 is you can just take a wood out, not too much trouble on 8. You might end up in bunker but you won't lose a ball.

14 is 383m from the greens and 411m from the blues online. Unless they've moved the tees to the ladies spot it's still very long. Granted in tramore they usually put the white markers closer to the greens than the whites.

And 7 is with the wind, 8 against and a slight uphill for your second. And you can cut the corner on 7, especially with a wind. Whereas if you're drive on 8 gets caught in the wind you can be in trouble either side and have a very long second to the green. 7 tends to be a much easier hole.

brick tamland

Index 1's seem to always be long par 4s that the average club golfer is not getting home in 2 on a average day.

Struggling to think of any exceptions to that really.